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What ? I won ? :eek:

Well that's a surprise. Thank you for choosing my piece.

So I have to come up with an idea for the new weekly contest ? The list of all the previous contests is long.
What if I choose something that's already been done ?
Now I have a headache. I'll sort something out as soon as I can.
 
Well that was a depressing read.

Yes it was.

Time for a cold shower to reflect on where it all went wrong.

cheers for the nod & feedback CR

to the next one!

What ? I won ? :eek:

Well that's a surprise. Thank you for choosing my piece.

So I have to come up with an idea for the new weekly contest ? The list of all the previous contests is long.
What if I choose something that's already been done ?
Now I have a headache. I'll sort something out as soon as I can.

Interesting choice for the weekly competition, interesting competition and interesting responses to the outcome.

Obviously, judging in such a matter is rather subjective, and it is possible that not everyone will agree either on the outcome or the way in which this was arrived at and expressed.

At the outset, however, I do think that there may have been a difference in interpretation between the Old World and the New in trying to come up with what is considered 'old' especially when juxtaposed with what is new, and in how best to convey and render this in an image.

Likewise, this is one of those competitions where it is possibly rather difficult to find a way of including individuals or people in a shot, in a way that is credible and compatible with the title of the competition itself.

Re stillcrazyman's picture, I thought it really excellent, and I really like the lines, the age and the warm colours. Above all, I loved the idea of an old - but clearly, still used, and still living - classroom ( and I must admit that I never even spotted the Christmas tree). I have taken similar shots in ancient classrooms when observing elections in strange countries - polling stations tend to be in places where groups of people are able to gather, and most villages have some sort of school, while towns have large schools, almost all of which are pressed into service.

Personally, I really liked Goftrey's piece - the idea of the new growth in the ruined castle struck me as what the theme was about; again, roaming around ruined castles - and looking at odd, unexpected flowers and shrubs that have taken root in the ruins give a contrast of time, colour and sensibilities. Again, I have taken similar shots for what I think may have been similar reasons.

On needfx's picture, the stark black and white contrast was very well done, the lines were clean and the actual composition was excellent. But I didn't like subject matter of the picture, and here is why.

It is not just that I am sick and tired of seeing beautiful women photographed, it is that I am sick and tired of seeing them photographed doing nothing. They are there just being beautiful, but doing nothing. They have no agency, no activity, no identity; they are nothing other than a blank canvas for the photographer to project his (and it is always his) thoughts, ideals and desires onto. In that sort of photography, men are defined by what they are doing, whereas the women simply sit there absorbing the photographer's gaze. Men do, women merely are.

In fact, the woman in the photograph looks as though she hasn't the slightest idea of how to actually use or work the camera, it is just a stage prop. Given that this is a section of the forum dedicated to photography, the idea of photographing a woman holding a camera in a pose which indicates she hasn't a clue how to use it really irks me. If the story told was a young woman (presumably used to digital devices) getting to grips with an antique camera, and told with clean lines, excellent control of light, and sharp monochrome, I'd be intrigued instead of annoyed.

Apple fanboy - again, well, I am an historian by profession and I love old buildings. (Once upon a distant time, I used to teach Renaissance and Reformation history). Anyway, I really liked this photograph, and would love to visit this spot to take a good, long look at it, and prowl around, camera in hand....



 
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Time for a paint job..
 

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It might possibly be of some assistance if the person who sets the contest also sets out some suggested guidelines as to what they are thinking - or, more to the point, not thinking, when setting such a title for a competition.

I was interested in the entries, and interested also in the differences in how the theme was treated between some of the UK entries (which I can readily relate to) and some from the US - which, while fascinating, did not resonate with me - or my preferences and prejudices - to quite the same extent. We each come to judging these things with our own inbuilt ideas and notions of what looks interesting when viewed through a lens.

Personally, as someone who loves history, and who is intrigued by expressions of the civic public space, I love old buildings - and there are more of them - at least structures that could be classed as very old - in Europe than in the States.

Placing different interpretations of what can be classed as 'old' in this sort of competition is a challenge in itself; what made it extra difficult was the addition of something which fell into the category of what is considered 'new' to that.

I suppose that there may have been too many possible variables in the theme set - given how it was interpreted photographically - along with too many misunderstandings of what the OP may have been looking for.

 


On needfx's picture, the stark black and white contrast was very well done, the lines were clean and the actual composition was excellent. But I didn't like subject matter of the picture, and here is why.

It is not just that I am sick and tired of seeing beautiful women photographed, it is that I am sick and tired of seeing them photographed doing nothing. They are there just being beautiful, but doing nothing. They have no agency, no activity, no identity; they are nothing other than a blank canvas for the photographer to project his (and it is always his) thoughts, ideals and desires onto. In that sort of photography, men are defined by what they are doing, whereas the women simply sit there absorbing the photographer's gaze. Men do, women merely are.

In fact, the woman in the photograph looks as though she hasn't the slightest idea of how to actually use or work the camera, it is just a stage prop. Given that this is a section of the forum dedicated to photography, the idea of photographing a woman holding a camera in a pose which indicates she hasn't a clue how to use it really irks me. If the story told was a young woman (presumably used to digital devices) getting to grips with an antique camera, and told with clean lines, excellent control of light, and sharp monochrome, I'd be intrigued instead of annoyed.


While your annoyance is somewhat founded, you should have factored in industries and social perceptions, all the while taking into account that this is not exclusive to the female sex.

The fashion & beauty industry, in its majority exhibits people of both sex as being successful in any aspect of life by just being beautiful or at least having a "type" of sorts which fits a demographic. Whether that's professional success or sexual prowess, all they have to do is look the part, rather than actually showing how they actually achieve that. This trickles down to the societal self perception and what they want and expect from a picture taken of them, especially in this social media day & age.

In my short experience, for any portrait I've taken, irrelevant of sex, it has been my subject's priority to look sexually attractive, or at least good looking, rather than being, even if faking it, proficient at something. Then again you have to consider the fact that younger people expect to at least like themselves when a picture is taken of them, a reassurance that their genetic material will successfully duplicate itself down the tunnel of time, or if already done that, that their sexual appeal still has chances of being relevant. It's basic biology for most people and how they place themselves into the world. In reality, nobody wants to look ugly in a picture.

Now, in my short time of taking pictures, about 2 years now, I have created some of women doing stuff, instead of just being. I do have a few ideas yet to come to fruition, since they require time, location scouting, model that would accept doing it & props, but I also have some examples of women doing something many men fail to; feel in complex ways.

Regarding the submitted picture on this contest, I had one more picture I contemplated putting forth, but I decided against it since for the one I submitted, pose, lines, camera angle & female body exposure appealed more to me in terms of final composition.
Here is the unedited alternate

https://flic.kr/p/pQzm2ihttps://www.flickr.com/people/107651264@N04/

Other women in action or doing stuff men/boys do as well
https://www.flickr.com/photos/needfx/10676773364/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/needfx/16079685019/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/needfx/13040059794/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/needfx/15447523067/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/needfx/14119293441/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/needfx/10673365564/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/needfx/14065455494/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/needfx/15465668918/

Women feeling
https://www.flickr.com/photos/needfx/14083575653/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/needfx/12571570213/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/needfx/12815568965/

Cases where subject cared about looking good in a picture
https://www.flickr.com/photos/needfx/14176146176/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/needfx/11239531603/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/needfx/10680391515/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/needfx/10680240425/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/needfx/14164162373/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/needfx/12344103295/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/needfx/12343746025/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/needfx/12234241323/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/needfx/11154355313/

Cases I only cared about the female form and the sensuality it transmits (yes, I'm a guy)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/needfx/13538663455/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/needfx/13950532351/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/needfx/12891946255/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/needfx/13193532883/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/needfx/13519657835/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/needfx/13597861245/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/needfx/sets/72157643647757694/

...And one you will really hate which exhibits female workplace stereotypes in an era where women where not considered as efficient or capable.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/needfx/11347016805/


I am not negating that you are not right, you are right. But I think your text fails to take into account the fact that quite a few people out there, especially in western societies, care more about looking good rather than looking proficient, irrelevant of sex.

--edit
..though photographers should take steps into preventing this more proactively, just like the natural beauty movement.
 
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The theme was something old, not someone hot!


't was an example of the female sex pretending to do something in the movie industry, but yeah :D

to counter my own post, there is also Jodie Foster in Silence of the Lambs & Contact, Sigourney Weaver in Alien & Avatar, Noomi Rapace in the Girl with the Dragon Tattoo & Prometheus, Frances McDormand in Fargo, Hilary Swank in Million Dollar Baby & Uma Thurman in Kill Bill.
 
Interesting choice for the weekly competition, interesting competition and interesting responses to the outcome.



Apple fanboy - again, well, I am an historian by profession and I love old buildings. (Once upon a distant time, I used to teach Renaissance and Reformation history). Anyway, I really liked this photograph, and would love to visit this spot to take a good, long look at it, and prowl around, camera in hand....




Thanks for the vote! Most useful piece of photographic equipment I bought was a National Trust membership. Gives you lots of useful places to visit like this (Wenlock Priory).
 
While your annoyance is somewhat founded, you should have factored in industries and social perceptions, all the while taking into account that this is not exclusive to the female sex.

The fashion & beauty industry, in its majority exhibits people of both sex as being successful in any aspect of life by just being beautiful or at least having a "type" of sorts which fits a demographic. Whether that's professional success or sexual prowess, all they have to do is look the part, rather than actually showing how they actually achieve that. This trickles down to the societal self perception and what they want and expect from a picture taken of them, especially in this social media day & age.

In my short experience, for any portrait I've taken, irrelevant of sex, it has been my subject's priority to look sexually attractive, or at least good looking, rather than being, even if faking it, proficient at something. Then again you have to consider the fact that younger people expect to at least like themselves when a picture is taken of them, a reassurance that their genetic material will successfully duplicate itself down the tunnel of time, or if already done that, that their sexual appeal still has chances of being relevant. It's basic biology for most people and how they place themselves into the world. In reality, nobody wants to look ugly in a picture.

Now, in my short time of taking pictures, about 2 years now, I have created some of women doing stuff, instead of just being. I do have a few ideas yet to come to fruition, since they require time, location scouting, model that would accept doing it & props, but I also have some examples of women doing something many men fail to; feel in complex ways.

Regarding the submitted picture on this contest, I had one more picture I contemplated putting forth, but I decided against it since for the one I submitted, pose, lines, camera angle & female body exposure appealed more to me in terms of final composition.
Here is the unedited alternate

[url=https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8622/15645903523_6cc35d3f96_n.jpg]Image[/url]https://flic.kr/p/pQzm2ihttps://www.flickr.com/people/107651264@N04/

Other women in action or doing stuff men/boys do as well
https://www.flickr.com/photos/needfx/10676773364/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/needfx/16079685019/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/needfx/13040059794/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/needfx/15447523067/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/needfx/14119293441/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/needfx/10673365564/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/needfx/14065455494/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/needfx/15465668918/

Women feeling
https://www.flickr.com/photos/needfx/14083575653/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/needfx/12571570213/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/needfx/12815568965/

Cases where subject cared about looking good in a picture

…...
Cases I only cared about the female form and the sensuality it transmits (yes, I'm a guy)
…….

I am not negating that you are not right, you are right. But I think your text fails to take into account the fact that quite a few people out there, especially in western societies, care more about looking good rather than looking proficient, irrelevant of sex.

--edit
..though photographers should take steps into preventing this more proactively, just like the natural beauty movement.

Well, I am an amateur photographer (although it has been a keen interest of mine since my early teens), and I have never photographed anyone professionally. Besides, I have no interest whatsoever in the beauty or fashion industries or the world of models, and the world of those for whom attractiveness and beauty is their currency and raison d'être is alien to me and not one I have any interest in.

I accept that in that situation people wish to made made to look good, and, while world that bores me, I can shrug it off.

However, the forms and norms of photographing beautiful and attractive women very often depicts them doing nothing other than being beautiful. When photographed, such clichés abound, and the models are this beautiful (almost bored - there is rarely a genuine laugh, or smile, just a bored, knowing pout) blank canvas. Very often, they appear to have no character and no agency, no inner life - nothing - other than bland good looks and excellent bone structure. Because they are not defined by doing, they are confined to being - just being beautiful. They are simply there to be looked at (projected on) but there is no story to be told in such pictures, because there is no activity - just an invitation of muted or yearning desire.

This is not even the stillness of repose, deep though, concentration or meditation - rather, it is the stillness of emptiness, the stillness of absence, an absence of feeling, of thought and activity. That this beautiful nothing - a life of being projected on, rather than active agency, and competence - is offered to women as an ideal horrifies me.

An yes, while this may be a way to make a living - and good luck to you in achieving that - in a world where we can choose what to post such as in online competitions, that someone would choose a picture (exquisite visually, yes, clean lines, wonderful monochrome and empty elegance) of a beautiful woman holding a camera which she clearly hasn't a clue how to operate - and little interest in, either - appals me.

That gesture of an arm thrown up - apparently artlessly, seemingly languid, but utterly artificial and affected, a ghastly staple of this sort of photography - but who on earth actually uses that gesture in real life? Nobody does, because it is a gesture which actually achieves nothing - and is a complete waste of time and energy

Of your photographs where women actually did something, the very first one was excellent, and I also liked the shot from the rear in the art gallery.

then, on the other hand, there's also this...

Image

Image

Sigh. No comment.

here's my meemaw taking pics with her canon 100D and my 70-300L

[url=https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8628/16079127050_7738219d09_c.jpg]Image[/url]IMG_6894_sm by needfx, on Flickr

Now, this is more like it. A real woman using a real camera, and clearly with complete competence. Not, yes, as beautiful as the model photographed earlier, but I know who I would prefer to have a coffee or a drink with.

I suppose that my issue is two-fold; the preponderance of beautiful women photographed by men (the old 'male gaze' stuff) - as though this was the only interesting thing worth recording about a woman - and, secondly, the fact that there seems to be a clear distinction between the emptiness of the lives of the beautiful people and the interesting stuff that the rest of the world gets up to. Well, if you must photograph beautiful people (women) at least try to incorporate some degree of activity or agency - 'beautiful' and 'interesting' should not be mutually exclusive when photographing an attractive person.
 
Thanks for the vote! Most useful piece of photographic equipment I bought was a National Trust membership. Gives you lots of useful places to visit like this (Wenlock Priory).

I meant to add thanks for enlightening me - I have never been to Wenlock Priory - must check it out.

You are not the first person who has recommended getting a National Trust membership; it is exactly the sort of thing that I would find extremely interesting.
 
I meant to add thanks for enlightening me - I have never been to Wenlock Priory - must check it out.

You are not the first person who has recommended getting a National Trust membership; it is exactly the sort of thing that I would find extremely interesting.

A few people I know take out National Trust membership one year, and English Heritage the next, thus taking advantage of any 'new membership' offers.

We had National Trust (must stop calling it National Front !) membership last year, but didn't take enough trips out to justify renewal this year.

Cheers :)

Hugh
 

Well, I am an amateur photographer (although it has been a keen interest of mine since my early teens), and I have never photographed anyone professionally. Besides, I have no interest whatsoever in the beauty or fashion industries or the world of models, and the world of those for whom attractiveness and beauty is their currency and raison d'être is alien to me and not one I have any interest in.

I accept that in that situation people wish to made made to look good, and, while world that bores me, I can shrug it off.

However, the forms and norms of photographing beautiful and attractive women very often depicts them doing nothing other than being beautiful. When photographed, such clichés abound, and the models are this beautiful (almost bored - there is rarely a genuine laugh, or smile, just a bored, knowing pout) blank canvas. Very often, they appear to have no character and no agency, no inner life - nothing - other than bland good looks and excellent bone structure. Because they are not defined by doing, they are confined to being - just being beautiful. They are simply there to be looked at (projected on) but there is no story to be told in such pictures, because there is no activity - just an invitation of muted or yearning desire.

This is not even the stillness of repose, deep though, concentration or meditation - rather, it is the stillness of emptiness, the stillness of absence, an absence of feeling, of thought and activity. That this beautiful nothing - a life of being projected on, rather than active agency, and competence - is offered to women as an ideal horrifies me.

An yes, while this may be a way to make a living - and good luck to you in achieving that - in a world where we can choose what to post such as in online competitions, that someone would choose a picture (exquisite visually, yes, clean lines, wonderful monochrome and empty elegance) of a beautiful woman holding a camera which she clearly hasn't a clue how to operate - and little interest in, either - appals me.

That gesture of an arm thrown up - apparently artlessly, seemingly languid, but utterly artificial and affected, a ghastly staple of this sort of photography - but who on earth actually uses that gesture in real life? Nobody does, because it is a gesture which actually achieves nothing - and is a complete waste of time and energy

Of your photographs where women actually did something, the very first one was excellent, and I also liked the shot from the rear in the art gallery.



Sigh. No comment.



Now, this is more like it. A real woman using a real camera, and clearly with complete competence. Not, yes, as beautiful as the model photographed earlier, but I know who I would prefer to have a coffee or a drink with.

I suppose that my issue is two-fold; the preponderance of beautiful women photographed by men (the old 'male gaze' stuff) - as though this was the only interesting thing worth recording about a woman - and, secondly, the fact that there seems to be a clear distinction between the emptiness of the lives of the beautiful people and the interesting stuff that the rest of the world gets up to. Well, if you must photograph beautiful people (women) at least try to incorporate some degree of activity or agency - 'beautiful' and 'interesting' should not be mutually exclusive when photographing an attractive person.

Well, beauty shots and natural environment portraits, along with any other style in the portrait group, will always have their specific place & clientele in the photography world, and since I am slowly trying to infiltrate the pro photo world, I am interested in doing any of those. If the client requires blank canvases of male/female beauty, that's what I will render for them should they pay.

If I ever rise above the need of clients and be a fine art photographer in my own right, I'll decide then my stylistic approach & stories.

For now, I just say yes, and I don't mind doing so.
 
Well, beauty shots and natural environment portraits, along with any other style in the portrait group, will always have their specific place & clientele in the photography world, and since I am slowly trying to infiltrate the pro photo world, I am interested in doing any of those. If the client requires blank canvases of male/female beauty, that's what I will render for them should they pay.

If I ever rise above the need of clients and be a fine art photographer in my own right, I'll decide then my stylistic approach & stories.

For now, I just say yes, and I don't mind doing so.

one more thing

did any of these classical art creators care about anything else other than the beauty the human body projected?

Did their subjects do anything else other than 'be'?

Image

Image

Image

Image



Oh, excellent. I haven't had a discussion like this for quite some time, so thanks for debating and discussing these things. It is most interesting.

I think that there seem to be two distinct discussions taking place here, which intersect and overlap but are not always the exact same. The first is the whole idea of beauty, and of art as dedicated to the celebration of beauty and adoration of the perfect or idealised human form as an expression of that, and whether this is a key (or the key) function of art.

The second is whether the representation of women in art and photography seeks (unconsciously or not) to solely feature beautiful women who seem to be doing nothing but sitting there, absorbing the gaze of the viewer, just being beautiful. Beauty alone is not - or ought not to be - the sole signifier for depicting someone, and it seems to be an especially prevalent lens through which many women are represented and photographed.

Re point one, I don't disagree (I was about to write, "I don't have a quarrel with this" when actually I do, but this is merely a matter of aesthetics and personal preferences) with what you say in that the pursuit of, recognition of, and admiration for some sort of notional physical ideal or perfection was very much a feature of a lot of western art for millennia.

A lot, but not all: The Romans tended to represent what they saw in reality in their forms of art rather than what they would have considered the ideal somewhat more than the Greeks.

Perhaps, because I personally prefer a vision that is more rooted in (uncomfortable and perhaps, less attractive) realities, I myself, prefer the Flemish and Dutch schools, to, say, that of the classical Renaissance where the old (Greek & Roman) ideals were freshly venerated (with great verve, artistic genius, and extraordinary flair).

 
I meant to add thanks for enlightening me - I have never been to Wenlock Priory - must check it out.

You are not the first person who has recommended getting a National Trust membership; it is exactly the sort of thing that I would find extremely interesting.

If you go three times, you save money. I've been to about 10 places.
 
A few people I know take out National Trust membership one year, and English Heritage the next, thus taking advantage of any 'new membership' offers.

We had National Trust (must stop calling it National Front !) membership last year, but didn't take enough trips out to justify renewal this year.

Cheers :)

Hugh

That's a most interesting suggestion; some very good friends of mine have been suggesting National Trust membership for a while.

If you go three times, you save money. I've been to about 10 places.

Thanks a lot for the tip.
 


Oh, excellent. I haven't had a discussion like this for quite some time, so thanks for debating and discussing these things. It is most interesting.

I think that there seem to be two distinct discussions taking place here, which intersect and overlap but are not always the exact same. The first is the whole idea of beauty, and of art as dedicated to the celebration of beauty and adoration of the perfect or idealised human form as an expression of that, and whether this is a key (or the key) function of art.

The second is whether the representation of women in art and photography seeks (unconsciously or not) to solely feature beautiful women who seem to be doing nothing but sitting there, absorbing the gaze of the viewer, just being beautiful. Beauty alone is not - or ought not to be - the sole signifier for depicting someone, and it seems to be an especially prevalent lens through which many women are represented and photographed.

Re point one, I don't disagree (I was about to write, "I don't have a quarrel with this" when actually I do, but this is merely a matter of aesthetics and personal preferences) with what you say in that the pursuit of, recognition of, and admiration for some sort of notional physical ideal or perfection was very much a feature of a lot of western art for millennia.

A lot, but not all: The Romans tended to represent what they saw in reality in their forms of art rather than what they would have considered the ideal somewhat more than the Greeks.

Perhaps, because I personally prefer a vision that is more rooted in (uncomfortable and perhaps, less attractive) realities, I myself, prefer the Flemish and Dutch schools, to, say, that of the classical Renaissance where the old (Greek & Roman) ideals were freshly venerated (with great verve, artistic genius, and extraordinary flair).


For the record, I would never compare myself to Botticelli, Michelangelo, Verneer, Praxitelis, or anyone of that caliber. Heck, I wouldn't even dare compare myself to contemporary photographers.

Exactly as you understood, I just wanted to make a point that the portrayal of beauty has in essence been an artistic medium on its own. Greek's, since you brought them up, are famous for implementing hyperbole in the human body proportions of their sculptures, after reaching a point where normal body proportions were considered dull. Most usual biohack, if I may, was adding a head's worth in height, and it was subtle way of inspiring awe with unnatural beauty, an MO still practiced today, only in the Greek's case, it was more concentrated on the male figure.

Debate Mode - ON :D
 
For the record, I would never compare myself to Botticelli, Michelangelo, Verneer, Praxitelis, or anyone of that caliber. Heck, I wouldn't even dare compare myself to contemporary photographers.

Exactly as you understood, I just wanted to make a point that the portrayal of beauty has in essence been an artistic medium on its own. Greek's, since you brought them up, are famous for implementing hyperbole in the human body proportions of their sculptures, after reaching a point where normal body proportions were considered dull. Most usual biohack, if I may, was adding a head's worth in height, and it was subtle way of inspiring awe with unnatural beauty, an MO still practiced today, only in the Greek's case, it was more concentrated on the male figure.

Debate Mode - ON :D

Oh yes, I rather suspect that this was because male love was considered the ideal, an old take on an idea (and ideal) I have encountered elsewhere where the expression used was 'women for children boys for love'.

And yes, I do know about the exaggeration - indeed, hyperbole - where an ideal figure was further idealised to resemble an idea or notion of perfection - one quite impossible to attain in real life - as an acknowledgement and idealisation of the male body.

Thus, while I admire and salute the artistic skill and astounding creative vision of the Greeks, it does not move me, and nor do I thrill to it.

However, leaving aside the extraordinarily limited imaginative range and scope in how attractive women are depicted in art and photography (which was what set me off originally) there is a fascinating wider discussion to be had on the role of beauty, and depicting (and defining) same in both art and photography, and whether this is a (I won't argue 'the') primary function of art and photography.

You seem to be making a case for doing this - for either artistic, or aesthetic reasons, or, by citing the commercial imperative (this is what the market wants, and this is how the model wishes to be portrayed).

Is there room for any innovation in this way of doing things? Of challenging viewers, and indeed, models, that perhaps how beauty is portrayed (if it must be portrayed so frequently) may be interrogated a bit more, or represented a bit more imaginatively?
 
Oh yes, I rather suspect that this was because male love was considered the ideal, an old take on an idea (and ideal) I have encountered elsewhere where the expression used was 'women for children boys for love'.

And yes, I do know about the exaggeration - indeed, hyperbole - where an ideal figure was further idealised to resemble an idea or notion of perfection - one quite impossible to attain in real life - as an acknowledgement and idealisation of the male body.

Thus, while I admire and salute the artistic skill and astounding creative vision of the Greeks, it does not move me, and nor do I thrill to it.

However, leaving aside the extraordinarily limited imaginative range and scope in how attractive women are depicted in art and photography (which was what set me off originally) there is a fascinating wider discussion to be had on the role of beauty, and depicting (and defining) same in both art and photography, and whether this is a (I won't argue 'the') primary function of art and photography.

You seem to be making a case for doing this - for either artistic, or aesthetic reasons, or, by citing the commercial imperative (this is what the market wants, and this is how the model wishes to be portrayed).

Is there room for any innovation in this way of doing things? Of challenging viewers, and indeed, models, that perhaps how beauty is portrayed (if it must be portrayed so frequently) may be interrogated a bit more, or represented a bit more imaginatively?

The consumer world has yet to overcome the superficiality of lucky genes, facial symmetry, photoshopped induced desires, and how huge industries hack into their biological programming. Sexual innuendos & forthcoming ladies are being bombarded to the average Joe & Jeanne, and it has steadily become a norm. This of course means that there is a market for it and there is money to be made, either in large scale, or drop in the ocean. Of course this means that one becomes a part of the problem instead of the solution.

Innovation comes when you become proficient enough with what the status-quo dictates (unless you're a prodigy like Da Vinci), and I have yet to master basic photography and conceptualization. In all fairness, this discussion has provided nourishment to my imaging synapses, but I find myself a long way, if ever, from changing how the world would like to perceive itself, or how it has been trained to do.

Private companies like Dove with Natural Beauty & Always' #runlikeagirl apparently are trying to change public perception in these matters. To one extent their message is conveyed, but does it register?

On a final note, I still don't entirely agree with one aspect on your side of the debate, that in this time and age women are the only ones dictated to "sois belle et tais toi" (be beautiful & shut up).

Other than that, let's make our own movement : Be More, Do More
 
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