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What are my options ..... [Mac Pro Alternatives]

TheHerdForever said:
Cue-Flow:(1) can Thunderbolt PCIe cards be used in this machine with some wonderful results and (2) are there any third party vendors that make mobo's for this case?

Frank A.
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I know of no Thunderbolt PCIe card that currently works on a Mac. Sonnet currently has a Thunderbolt card, but AFAIK it is not Mac Compatible.

The Mac MOBO is not a standard I know of none that will fit properly in a Mac Pro. I have read about some folks making a PC MOBO fit, but them were back to a Hackintosh, so what's the point.?

Lou
 
flowrider said:
I know of no Thunderbolt PCIe card that currently works on a Mac. Sonnet currently has a Thunderbolt card, but AFAIK it is not Mac Compatible.

The Mac MOBO is not a standard I know of none that will fit properly in a Mac Pro. I have read about some folks making a PC MOBO fit, but them were back to a Hackintosh, so what's the point.?

Lou
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It's my understanding that TB has to be supported at the chipset level. You can't just add a card.
 
flowrider said:
I know of no Thunderbolt PCIe card that currently works on a Mac. Sonnet currently has a Thunderbolt card, but AFAIK it is not Mac Compatible.
Click to expand...

Sonnet has no "Thunderbolt" card. Their thunderbolt solutions page:

http://www.sonnettech.com/product/thunderbolt/

some of which take PCI-e cards.

Sonnet cards here:

http://www.sonnettech.com/product/computercards/index.html


Intel announced from the beginning that Thunderbolt a main logicboard oriented solution. Period.

Folks keep inventing PCI is going to ride in and save the day solutions.... but PCI/PCIe sockets don't solve everything. Never did before. Doesn't now and won't in the future.

There are some Rube Goldberg solutions some mainstream PC vendors came up with last year. None of them have passed Thunderbolt certification.
I wouldn't hold my breath waiting on them. All of them require something more than a standard socket. There are pragmatically three inputs to Thunderbolt PCI-e , Display Port , and boot context/firmare communication. A standard PCI-e socket only covers one of those. Have to have all three or won't pass certification. The easiest, most straightforward to that is to put the controller on the main logic board or some logical daughtercard of the main logic board that isn't removable in normal operation.


The Mac MOBO is not a standard I know of none that will fit properly in a Mac Pro.
Click to expand...

the current Mac Pro mounts the CPU+RAM+Northbridge perpendicular to the main logicboard. The thermal solution is custom to that set-up also.

It isn't impossible, just few, if any, are going to do it as a commercial project.


I have read about some folks making a PC MOBO fit,
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There are old variants of the case that are closer to ATX standard lay out. The internals of the case evolved over time though even if the outside looks mostly the same.
 
hello again from the windows side of things,
I found quite a drawback on this lenovo 12core workstation: the multicore synchronisation is ****; realflow meshing has serious troubles if all cores are enabled. I do not know if this really is the reason, but it well could be.
I googled around and found athread on the realflow forum (some cpus seem to have problems) about this and this is from the enquirer:
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer...-boost-causes-thread-synchronisation-problems

under os x this was never a problem for me. seems to have to do with grand central dispatching (taken from the comments under the inquirer article) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Central_Dispatch


It's just something to consider while planning a way out of the single core mac pro crisis (for the ones who need crunching). I think I will wait until the first dual lga 2011 hackintosh with ivy bridge ep builds under mavericks appear and then make my decision.
 
RoastingPig said:
Mac pro with 27' inch cinema is the most aesthetically pleasing setup ever...get that and just put a ssd and a new graphics card
Click to expand...

Agreed. I just got a MP 5,1 per flowrider's advice (BTW, thanks for the link Flow!!) and I should be receiving it in the mail in a few days. Can't wait to get it and upgrade the thing!! I need to drive 3 x 27" monitors with all at high resolutions. I'll be using the MP to create music (via Logic 10), score to film (via Final Cut Pro X) and edit photos using Adobe editing software (Elements, Photoshop, etc.).

With all that being said, the MP 5,1 I got is coming with a ATI Radeon HD 5770 1GB in it. I 'm going to load it up with lots of RAM, storage (Raid is the only way to go...for me aways :D) and hopefully some peripheral cards (USB 3.0, TB maybe, etc.) in time. However, I'm not so sure about what GPU to get. Can anyone recommend a powerful GPU for this model and where to get one from? I'm also stuck on what CPU to get for it. I need a CPU to crunch numbers fast since Logic, Final Cut Pro and Adobe photo apps can be CPU bound at times. Does anyone know where can I get a decent CPU for it, or should I wait for something that MAY COME OUT in the horizon?

And before I forget, I want to thank all that responded with great information. Especially flowrider and cueboyn. This site ROCKS!!

Frank
 
TheHerdForever said:
since I will NOT buy a new Mac Pro that is shipping soon? I don't want to start a argument with anyone about my decision, but for the record, I am not sold that the new MP will be a "professional workstation" as Apple wants us to believe. To me, it's the most ridiculous product/idea that Apple as coming out to date...so I will leave it at that. All options will be considered...existing Apple parts, HackIntosh, or whatever. Thanks for all that respond with advice.
Click to expand...
What "professional" work do you do? It's impossible to make a judgment about your hardware needs without knowing what you ... need.

However, I generally think that you should wait until we actually have details about the new MP before making a decision.
 
malana said:
hello again from the windows side of things,
I found quite a drawback on this lenovo 12core workstation: the multicore synchronisation is ****; realflow meshing has serious troubles if all cores are enabled. I do not know if this really is the reason, but it well could be.
I googled around and found athread on the realflow forum (some cpus seem to have problems) about this and this is from the enquirer:
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer...-boost-causes-thread-synchronisation-problems

under os x this was never a problem for me. seems to have to do with grand central dispatching (taken from the comments under the inquirer article) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Central_Dispatch


It's just something to consider while planning a way out of the single core mac pro crisis (for the ones who need crunching). I think I will wait until the first dual lga 2011 hackintosh with ivy bridge ep builds under mavericks appear and then make my decision.
Click to expand...

Interesting! Very interesting indeed!! And get this...Logic and Final Cut Pro are programs that depend on VERY low latency!! More to digest I guess before upgrading. :rolleyes:

Frank

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benwiggy said:
What "professional" work do you do? It's impossible to make a judgment about your hardware needs without knowing what you ... need.

However, I generally think that you should wait until we actually have details about the new MP before making a decision.
Click to expand...

Agreed with your first comment, so see post #31 above. Your second comment, well, honestly the new MP isn't going to cut it for me. Believe it or not, the first thing that turned me off was it's shape. Putting a "trash can" like object in a computer rack will be a major challenge (for me and others I would imagine) ....... and I simply don't have the time to figure out that one issue alone. Upgradability is another issue I have with the new MP, but as I've stated earlier, I don't want to start any arguments.

Frank
 
TheHerdForever said:
Putting a "trash can" like object in a computer rack will be a major challenge (for me and others I would imagine) ....... and I simply don't have the time to figure out that one issue alone.
Click to expand...

Thats your argument? Weak at best. The new MacPro will be a hell of a lot easier to rack than the current Mac Pro that uses 12U of rack space. It is definitely not ideal but it is much better than the current Mac Pro.
 
First of all, this is a topic I hoped would appear on MR.

I faced this same dilemma, and came up with the same decision. I bought a 2010 refurb quad from Apple (before the iBarrel was unveiled) because I had a hunch Apple would go too far on purpose. My guess was, they knew they had to do something truly innovative to shut up the people who were saying they could not longer innovate. And the MP, being a small market product, was the best machine to demonstrate they still had their mojo.

Whether or not the nMP is a worthy productivity machine, or Apple’s version of a Corvette, remains to be seen.

Anyway, my 2010 refurb turned out to be a NOS (new old stock) machine. A brand new 2010 that was only a couple hundred more than a used 2010 machine. And that’s if you can find a good used 2010 or newer MP. Even when I was looking, the used 2010 and newer MP supply was very tight. Apparently, everyone was holding on to these machines because they are critical for productivity.

There was a good supply of 2009 and 2008 MP’s. But that’s because they both have significant issues that were solved in the 2010 MP.

Here are my non-expert thoughts on what could happen next. In prosumer music, something similar happened. Some good-enough yet reasonably priced recording gear was produced from around 2005 to 2010. But the manufacturers stopped making it because home recording is far more difficult than the prosumers thought possible. So they sold that gear, and opted to spend their money in actual recording studios. And that gear ended up on the used market.

Here’s why this is significant. Small audio modification shops jumped into the market and modded it up to the level of true pro audio gear. You send them your gear, they dramatically upgrade it, and send it back to you. A good example is Black Lion Audio. But there are other online specialty shops that do this.

So I am wondering whether Apple’s nMP will jump-start similar online mod shops for 2010 and newer cheesegraters. Since those shops would not be “selling” a machine, simply upgrading what they are sent, as far as I know, Apple would not be able to stop this. I don’t think they can stop people from upgrading their own cheesegrater. Or, are these mod shops already here?
 
flowrider said:
.... However, Intel may have something up it's sleeve:eek:


http://vr-zone.com/articles/thunderb...ope/50677.html
Click to expand...

Like ...
"... Intel is planning on limiting the ODM pool to those who already have Thunderbolt motherboard designs. All add in cards and motherboards must be certified together and must contain prominent “Thunderbolt ready” identifiers according to Intel. ..."

This seems unlikely to increase the number of TB motherboards out there. It is the same set of folks who already embedded it. In fact, this is just as likely the path of the slow retreat from "box with slots" deployment of Thunderbolt as much as any 'growth' phase.

If all the ODM go 100% to this socket thing then 0% of the motherboards will ship with TB. That is not a growth path for TB.

The boards aren't going to generically work in any PC with a PCI-e socket. You need internal DP socket or some Rube Goldberg external to internal loop back cable. Also need a GPIO header. Is there a GPIO header on current Mac Pro's? Do most boards have them? Negative on either one of those is also not a growth path.

Pull Thunderbolt off the motherboard and it starts turning into a "round peg in square hole" solution. Those typically do not to drive substantive growth. For example the story's so called "upside" ...

"... Delock’s Thunderbolt to SATA adapter. It’s powered by the ASmedia controller, which it isn’t clear if its officially licensed by Intel or not. Regardless, it’s priced aggressively at approximately $130 USD .."

Hmm $130 TB -> SATA adapter hooked to perhaps a $100 TB card. Ta-da a eSATA connection. ... versus generic x4 eSATA card in the exact same socket for what $50-60? That is going to be a market driver?


I have no doubt that it there are folks spinning this as a 'solution'. A far better one would be to get integrated into more laptop and all-in-one solution where there is far better value add proposition. Coupled with that start to let more competing implementers into the fold of approved TB peripheral vendors. Intel has throttled a 'race to the bottom' of cheap, chop-shop solutions but the flow is bit too tight/slow of letting folks in.

If there is vast retreat of those "no PCI-e socket" systems by the risk adverse PC system vendors then this card thing is just pissing in the wind. Same ODM vendors in full retreat are just going to make it optional on a subset of logic boards. Purely optional ports is not going to drive peripheral vendors.

It is a cool hack that will grow stale in about year 2-3 ... if that long because as soon as tell the folks with an empty PCI-e x4 slot on a non certified board they can't use the card, there is going to be blow back.

" ... Pushing out Thunderbolt via PCIe cards can lift Thunderbolt’s numbers and bring its price down by busting Intel’s self-constructed monopoly. "

This breaks no Intel monopoly on Thunderbolt tech at all. Every solution is a variant on a Intel reference board. Intel (and Apple ) certify all solutions. Intel is still sole source of Thunderbolt controllers. Where is the monopoly break?

I don't really buy that these PCI-e cards are suddenly going to allow large numbers of TB controllers fall off the back of the truck and non-certified solutions will spring up.
 
brand said:
Thats your argument? Weak at best. The new MacPro will be a hell of a lot easier to rack than the current Mac Pro that uses 12U of rack space. It is definitely not ideal but it is much better than the current Mac Pro.
Click to expand...

How do you figure? The old pro can be racked on its side. The shape of the new one alone is more of an obstacle than the size.
 
handsome pete said:
How do you figure? The old pro can be racked on its side. The shape of the new one alone is more of an obstacle than the size.
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Thanks Handsome, because I ignored that comment. I think some folks are trying to start an argument and I'm not falling for it.

Frank

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flat five said:
the one that comes with it?
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2.4 GHz. Please see the link flowrider provided at the top of this thread.

Frank
 
handsome pete said:
How do you figure? The old pro can be racked on its side. The shape of the new one alone is more of an obstacle than the size.
Click to expand...

With the handles on it it will not fit in the industry standard 19" server cabinet or network rack. That has been the problem ever since the PowerMac/MacPro came about and even more so when the Xserve was discontinued.

TheHerdForever said:
I think some folks are trying to start an argument and I'm not falling for it.
Click to expand...

More like you are only seeing what you want to see.
 
handsome pete said:
How do you figure? The old pro can be racked on its side. The shape of the new one alone is more of an obstacle than the size.
Click to expand...

Some folks are planning to rack the new Mac Pro on its side also. Neither one is a natural fit. ( old/current one has gratuitous handle width in horizontal orientation and is wider than a standard rack. new one will probably require airflow assist to make up for non-natural air flow with this design )

However, these folks say they are going to give it a shot.

http://www.macstadium.com/mac-pro

If search this Mac Pro forum for 'macstadium' you'll should find two threads where the spec errors, problems, and benefits are outlined. I think the Macstadium folks actually jumped into one of those. In short, they are adding enclosure and custom blower infrastructure to make it work. The upside is that they are going to get much higher system density.


Having to do somewhat custom jigs isn't anything new for a large scale Mac Mini hosting service. So this new Mac Pro is just new twist on same general problem, so solution isn't that big of a leap.

Small scale where looking to rack 1-2 of them probably won't be a problem if jigs/brackets show up. For example for those who have a current Mac Pro slotted into a rack vertically could probably put 1-2 Mac Pro 2013 in same place even if have to insert a deflection plate to redirect the exhaust back into a front-to-back orientation. Horizontally, a cradle with a localized blower assist would likely work OK ( slight overpressure would compensate for not having natural convection flow. )
 
ActionableMango said:
This doesn't seem helpful to me. Sounds like it requires matching proprietary motherboards, just like the existing Asus PCIe Thunderbolt card.
Click to expand...

I think the disconnect is the scope of helpfulness.

Hackintosh folks. If utility is primarily driven on cobbling together the solution yourself then suddenly it isn't proprietary anymore... it is the favorite motherboard vendor you chose. Completely custom systems are in a very real sense proprietary. In that scope, it is helpful.

Does that do anything for Thunderbolt as a growth ecosystem relative to the overall PC market? Nope. Are any one of these board vendors going to deploy as many TB complete systems a year as Apple? Very likely not. Are they collectively going to deploy as many TB complete systems a year as Apple? Probably not.
 
TheHerdForever's office of the future:


6a00d83452989a69e200e55375be8c8834-800wi.jpg

Awe-some!
 
flowrider said:
My advice (much cuebouzn's), and what I actually did was buy a brand new 2010 base dual CPU Mac and upgrade from there. There are still some out there.

Here:

http://www.expercom.com/product_detail.html?p=703416

They can still be had for a reasonable price and other than the CPUs are identical to the 2012 5,1 Mac Pros. IMHO, there are a beautifully designed and engineered machine that is built like a tank and relatively easy to upgrade. My machine is only 5 weeks old and I have upgraded the RAM, CPUs, Graphics Card, and put in a PCIe SSD card with a Samsung SSD.

Lou
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Flow,

If I may ask, what CPUs did you end up putting in your new 2010 base dual CPU mac and why? I'm looking at CPUs so I can upgrade my new dual mac.

Thanks,
Frank
 
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