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What are the chances of new Mac mini refresh announced in June/July?
- Thread starter kofman13
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With that same concept, developers don't really need to write software for the newer iOS or macOS.....If it works in Big Sur, it will work in the newer macOS.
So why does Apple show off all the operating systems and hits ourselves hard with "developer early access", "new SDKs", "new APIs"? Its so developers can change things up. So going to a new processor with more cores, will allow things like Photoshop, After Effects, etc to be READY by launch - otherwise the M1X/M2 will be useless for MONTHS.
Thats not how multithreading works.
The reason for a DTK is because of the transition between x86 to arm. Once you have software written for arm, you don’t need to know about a specific processor for it to work as long as it’s all using the same architecture. Devs get API’s for new features found in the OS. Of course those processors will work just fine if all they did was add more cores to them. If your code was already multithreaded then it’ll utilize more cores in the same way it would on an Intel machine. This is how it’s been on Intel for years and years. Devs didn’t need to write software specifically for 8-core i9 vs a 4-core i7? Huh? They just wrote software that was multithreaded that could scale up as needed. Multi-threading and utilizing more available cores isn’t a new thing.
Devs never went “okay I’m gonna write this software specifically for the new 6-core i7 coming out this year” that’s not how that works. They say “I’m going to implement new API’s that will be available in the new OS this year”.
That is why we get new OS announcements every year and why we have never once gotten a new chip announcement like “A15” at WWDC. Again the DTK was only made so devs could compile their code to arm. That wasn’t specific to M1 it was specific to arm. Their code is now compiled for arm so that makes a DTK useless. What a dev could do on the DTK they can now do on an M1 Mac.
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We don't know if they will just add more cores on the M1X or M2. They might add additional features. M1 is not just CPU and GPU, there are many other things involved from the ISP to Neural Engine to secure enclave.
And there can certainly be some very unique workflow that does not work on the 4 high performance cores but might for the 8 high performance cores. Some high end professional software does not work well on a 4 core i5 due to needing many more cores.
There is also this that compiles all the leaks and everything we have. My position still remains that they will announce the computers at WWDC and ship in the fall.
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So, why were there never Development Kits when the Mac transitioned from Core Duo to Core 2 Duo or to the i series?
The truth is no one knows, but the need for a DTK does not exist anymore. The architecture remains the same, which is now ARM, whether they send them out or not.
Okay, new features in the SoC? The MacBook Pro with Touch Bar was announced and then released within a week. New hardware there, with a whole new interface on that Touch Bar, apps still worked and when the Devs got their machines they worked on enhancing them for that new way of interacting.
Also at one point you asked why do they show off the new OS so early… because software with new APIs and other underlying changes is different than hardware. An app could be using some sort of API or other thing that has either been completely rewritten or deprecated and when the time comes for the OS to be out, and the developer had no idea, then their app that, potentially, many people rely on no longer works. That is not the same for hardware. We know that apps built for the M series chips work, whether they work natively now or because of Rosetta does not matter. Sure, for the sake of efficiency it could, but no matter what they will work on the M series chips, thus negating that need for a DTK.
The only Macs in recent memory announced months in advance have been the ones targeted at professionals. And know something funny? There were no DTKs for those, they were announced to let the professionals know they were still working on crazy powerful Macs that they would want. The public and professionals were not seeing anything from Apple in regard to their needs prior to the announcements, so Apple showed them off to say “hey, we didn‘t forget about you.”
Now of course, I have said all of this, but at the same time it is always possible they could do exactly as you say, but I would tend to think they won’t as there is no need to.
I am aware of the rumors. I keep up with Rene Ritchie, Max Tech, Luke Miani, Prosser, Sam, Saran, Reddit, all of them - that doesn’t change the fact that they have never once announced a chip beforehand at WWDC because it has a feature that devs need to write specific code for. If they do have some sort of new IP that’s only included in the higher-end chips, they would likely only announce that IP. They wouldn’t announce the entire product just so devs could write code for a niche feature that’s in the new chip. Mac Pro and iMac Pro are two exceptions to that which I outlined the reasoning why beforehand.
If you announce hardware too soon without actually releasing it, you create an Osborne effect. But the iMac pro was a brand new category so it didn’t effect any product, and the Mac pro was 6 years old at that point so Apple wasn’t at risk of jeopardizing sales of the current Mac pro.
Could apple announce those at WWDC? Yes. Is there any indication or reason why they would that we know of? No.
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They announced M1 at WWDC 2020, DTK shortly after and M1 products shipped in the fall......
Videos start at timestamps where approprite.
Also, they announced the 2019 Mac Pro at WWDC 2019.
They have introduced new iMacs (not just the pro) at WWDC 2017
There are certainly devs out there that are not going to port their code that requires more power than an M1 can provide, but will when they see the 12 core or 32 core CPUs come up.
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And that is precisely what the next M* processors are going to be for. Not $50,000 Mac Pro levels, but still more geared towards professionals. They are DONE with the regular consumer now. So again, everything makes sense that they will announce new products.
Uh what? They didn’t announce M1 at WWDC? Are we watching the same video?
They announced the TRANSITION to Apple silicon at WWDC. That’s hugely different. M1 chip was announced at Nov 2020 event.
The DTK used an A12z chip. Already used in a different product. That has nothing to do with what you’re talking about. I already explained why there’s no need for another DTK.
And I already mentioned why the Mac Pro and iMac are special cases about 3-4 times now. That has nothing to do with the chips used.
And I already explained to you that ALL of those OTHER macs announced in 2017 started shipping in June.
I don’t mean to be rude. Honesty I don’t. But are you even reading what I’m writing?
Just to be very very clear here: I agree that macs will be announced at WWDC. I never said they weren’t. I even showed you a list of WWDC events where they were announced new hardware just like the video you posted. What I don’t agree with is when you said they are announcing products at WWDC early just so devs can write special code for them and then ship in the fall. That doesn’t make Any sense. Or when you said they would need a DTK for the M1X. They don’t.
The only reason they would ship in the fall is because of chip shortages. Not because they need to give devs time to code specially for M1X.
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Not M1 by name, but the DTK was announced at 1:44 in the video. Are we watching the same video?
And I said they announced OTHER iMacs OTHER than the Pro. Are you able to read?
They have introduced new iMacs (not just the pro) at WWDC 2017
You are CLEARLY being rude here. Why are we 20 posts with this discussion? I posted reasons why I think there will be hardware announcements, Mac tech agrees. So what is the damn point in nitpicking all these things? You OBVIOUSLY think there will be NO hardware announcement. Even though we have had them in the past (I posted three videos with hardware announcements including the Apple Silicon DTK).
These next M* processors are geared towards professionals, so the chances are VERY high. You don't agree, you think it will only be software and that is fine. Let's just leave it like this without going to 20 more comments. We will find out in June.
Announcing a transition plus making available a DTK and announcing an actual product are different.
I won’t argue hardware announcements at WWDC, because it is an accurate that they announce hardware there. What I will argue is the fact that you are saying they announce products months in advance because of a transition. They have announced products far in advance because of needing regulatory approval: iPhone at MacWorld in January 2007 to be launched June 2007, iPad announced January 2010 and launched April 2010, and Apple Watch September 2014 with launch April 2015. Or when announcing professional machines at WWDC for release later in the year. could it be argued that because it is a developer focused time at WWDC that these are why they were announced? Yep! And I tend to think it was a big reason why. But they also announced them to let professionals know they were not forgotten. Apple Silicon for Mac was announced early so that developers were prepared when the transition to new architecture and process happens.
With Apple Silicon they may be done with consumer level for now (although a larger screen iMac would still be consumer), but they won’t release a new DTK because there is no reason to. They would only announce these products if they were absolutely ready to go. They have also stated the entire lineup of Macs will be transitioning, so it stands to reason any professional level machines are included like the Mac Pro. They can’t blanket that all Macs will be transitioned, but never update the Mac Pro, so the professionals know it is going to happen.
Then again, typing all that out, they could announce a sneak peak of the Mac Pro, give some numbers and design and leave it at that until it launches in fall, winter, or sometime at the end of next year. What they won’t do, more than likely, is make another DTK for developers because the DTK is now an M1 Mac, due to the architecture being exactly the same.
I said this once....you guys are acting like I am SHOUTING IT in every post I am making. You have made your positions VERY clear and I have NOT replied countering your arguments since. So why are you continuing? Maybe they won't this is new. Intel X86 was an industry standard at the time so maybe they didn't need it during the Intel transition as much. Again we will see.
There is no need to argue. I said it once in many posts ago and I am not arguing it in every subsequent posts. So lets just drop the DTK discussion. I think there MIGHT be a chance, you don't. So we can be clear on that. Its fine to think we might see different things.
This seems to be an edit as I did not see this before. Thank you for clarifying. When the conversation goes from "Hardware has been announced at WWDC" and the response I receive is basically "iMac Pro and 2019 Mac Pro are unique" that leads me to believe that your stance is NO hardware AT ALL at WWDC. Whether I am at fault or not, it is the impression I received the last several posts that you thought there would be NO hardware.
As a developer, it certainly makes sense to me. If I program for something where I only have access to 4 cores, then 8 cores becomes a standard on better systems, I can program to do OTHER things on the four other cores - background tasks and other things. Perhaps my app does not scale well going from 4 cores to 8 cores WITHOUT any code changes, so I would need to make some enhancements to support the additional cores by doing more background tasks. I have been through this going from systems targeting i3 processors to when i5 AND i7 processors were the standard for our corporate environment. Extra cores didn't improve the performance of the code as is so I made changes.
It doesn't make sense to you, and that is fine. To me, it does. And that is the beauty of being different. We can certainly think different things.
I want to say that it isn’t outside the realm of possibility they announce hardware at WWDC, but the odds are higher it will be available immediately if announced. They have no reason to announce it and wait months because it will just cannibalize sales of current hardware even more than the announcement of the move to Apple Silicon already has.
They have announced hardware before, and I was at the 2017 opening keynote and got to see it all, so I know what you’re saying.
I have really only been pointing out that I can’t see them doing another DTK type of thing. Could they do it? Absolutely, and if they did I would think it would be cool (I found the original DTK with the A12z super cool), I just don’t know if it is necessary, but who knows, I’m just a random person commenting on a rumors website from their iPad.
They have announced hardware before, and I was at the 2017 opening keynote and got to see it all, so I know what you’re saying.
I have really only been pointing out that I can’t see them doing another DTK type of thing. Could they do it? Absolutely, and if they did I would think it would be cool (I found the original DTK with the A12z super cool), I just don’t know if it is necessary, but who knows, I’m just a random person commenting on a rumors website from their iPad.
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Yes (see my post above) regarding why I THINK there might be a POSSIBILITY of a DTK. It makes sense to me as I have been through this going from a dual core i3 corporate environment building corporate software to i5 and even i7 being standardized with 4 or more cores. The extra two cores did not make my program faster just with the processor alone, it required code changes. Again, I think its just a POSSIBILITY, not a guarantee.
I agree with your excitement about WWDC. Its my special holiday, and I always take some vacation time (typically a couple of days as I watch the event repeatedly from other podcasts and reactors).
I edited my comment you quoted. I thought about it and can see it from your side.
Gotcha. I can certainly see how developers with software that really doesn't work for 4 high performance cores (without hyperthreading too) would like a "DTK like thing" where they have time to get their software ready for day one for consumers. But that might not happen.
This is the very first thing I said to you:
So I’m not sure why you thought I was saying there would be no hardware at WWDC when the first post I said to you was “Apple has a history of announcing hardware at WWDC”. That post was not edited.
Maybe you though I was someone else?
No, that was the very first comment I tagged you in and I did not make any edits to that post.
Your later discussions led me to believe you were arguing there would be NO hardware at WWDC so that is my fault for not understanding properly.
It’s okay. I understand now why you’d think that if you hadn’t seen my first comment. This whole time I thought you had read my first comment explaining why we may see hardware at WWDC and I was getting so confused.
I’m glad we were able to clear that up!
well now that that’s cleared up
Any comments on my now buried theory around Afterburner and Apple targeting machine learning developers at wwdc with hardware focused on HPC for training data?
I had to hunt for this but I found someone else who drew attention to Afterburner and new pro Apple Silicon HW at the end of March.
Any comments on my now buried theory around Afterburner and Apple targeting machine learning developers at wwdc with hardware focused on HPC for training data?
I had to hunt for this but I found someone else who drew attention to Afterburner and new pro Apple Silicon HW at the end of March.