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svenmany

macrumors demi-god
Jun 19, 2011
2,274
1,520
What I don't appreciate is misinformation... as that allows blame to be widely spread which then takes the focus off of what will ultimately fix this issue. There is no benefit in implying it's other things when simple tests can rule out those other things. There is only ONE thing that is common to EVERY single case of this issue.

Since I'm the one who is responding to you at the moment, it's seems you're accusing me of spreading misinformation. Wow.

Your language and reasoning are casual. You say "this issue", but you don't define "this". If the issue is Mac computers ejecting their drives, then the Mac would be the common denominator. If you consider the issue to be drives getting disconnected on computers, then the Mac wouldn't be the common denominator.

It's easy to find discussions of Mac disconnects since it's a brand with a lot of market share and dedicated sites discussing it. It's harder to find discussions of disconnects affecting all the other different brands of laptops. I did a simple DuckDuckGo search for "thunderbolt dock disconnects" (just to focus on one version of the disconnect problem). Here are the top 5 hits.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Thunderbolt/comments/zzcz6g

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us...t-losing/f1613394-2f0a-4147-94a2-6c6fb5d0dd83

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us...nnecting/fa8dab44-1adf-4b30-b53e-eef8875bbffa

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us...connects/0e34a204-ee79-4f68-ae17-6b96fbae52a9

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/t...vices-connected-via-thunderbolt-dock-not-work

And a little further down in the results are posted dock troubleshooting guides by Dell, HP, and Lenovo.
 

svenmany

macrumors demi-god
Jun 19, 2011
2,274
1,520
I did a test using my Windows desktop. I put the computer to sleep, ejected a disk, and woke the computer. Windows didn't even complain. I wouldn't even have known there had been a problem. I opened explorer and the drive was missing.

On my Mac, after the disconnects the drives reconnect automatically. After my computer wakes up, the drives are often connected, but the popups complaining about the ejects stay prominently on the screen. If the Mac had been silent about the problem like Windows is, then I wouldn't have known there was a disconnect.

Seems reasonable that macOS complaining about the disconnects cause more people to notice them and report the problems. I'm not referring to disconnects during active use of a disk.

Even though I don't see evidence that macOS/Mac is the only problem in all this, I also don't have evidence that there isn't a bug on the Apple side. No one should be claiming they have the answer unless they have a pretty sophisticated testing toolset.
 

HobeSoundDarryl

macrumors G5
Again, not singling you out (so my apologies if it felt like that)- just talking in general, trying to be helpful to others who might read this thread looking for solutions. Many people hit many of the threads about "this issue" and redirect it to anything & everything other than Apple. For example, your first post in response to me seemed to be trying to single out docks as a culprit. Others pitch cable, firmware, enclosure, brand, drive, age, settings and user error in spite of certainly seeing over and over in all of these threads that this is not some isolated incident where it could be just one thing like any of that.

And "this issue" is about MACs unexpectedly ejecting external drives. You're the one who brought Windows and linux into the conversation... perhaps out of confusion that my own posts were very specifically about Macs... as Macs are the only thing running macOS.

"this" is defined as spontaneous unexpected ejections, often in enclosures that were perfectly stable in < BigSur versions of macOS. All of the variables that often get blame tend to be the same variables that used to maintain a stable connection to a Mac. Then one upgrades to Big Sur or newer and that's not the case anymore. No variables changed except the macOS upgrade. In SOME of those cases, the Mac user needed the drive more than they needed the macOS upgrade, so they went to the trouble to downgrade again... after which EVERY SINGLE report I've seen led to a stable drive again.

None of that says that there won't be dock disconnect stories for any platform if one does that kind of search. Try a search for "iPhone spontaneous combustion" and you'll find those stories. Try "iPhone is possessed" and you'll find stories about that too. The first one is in an Apple Support Community.

My replies to your posts were not denying that docks can unexpectedly eject drives... just that THAT is not the narrow cause of this problem specifically with Macs running Big Sur and newer with select- but not all- attached drives. Many of these cases are direct connect- no docks involved and/or when docks were playing middleman, Mac people trying to solve this themselves have experimented with direct connect to rule out a defective dock. Generally, there's little success there, because that doesn't seem to be much of a contributor to this problem for Mac people.

I pounded through some docks & hubs myself trying to solve this problem. My best guess is that this problem is grounded in power management and/or port management... and the working hypothesis that I can't directly test is that since Silicon Macs lean on iDevice code and iDevices by nature don't tend to have HDD enclosures attached to them for any length of time, iOS code supporting attached devices tries to work power down to maximize battery life... dropping below some threshold that keeps select enclosures attached. Even though this code is in select Macs with no batteries at all- like my own Studio Ultra- I suspect the algorithms are still in play. So, an idea was that perhaps a powered hub or dock would maintain the power sipping relationship to the Mac and then manage the power connection to the drive itself, NOT fall below the threshold and thus never unexpectedly eject the drive. Result: No noticeable change... unexpected ejections as before.

Hypothesis #2: do Silicon ports "crash"/"reboot"? I can very tangibly see that an ethernet port seems to crash/reboot from time to time. If other ports do the same, select enclosures may not be able to recover from the temporary virtual disconnect and thus "unexpectedly eject" while others can handle it. To me this would be bugs in port management software and yield the same seemingly random experiences. No way I know to test this myself but Apple could.


However, all that offered, if you want to do web searches, try "macOS unexpected ejection" and "Mac unexpected ejection." You'll find pages and pages of matches all over the web about this particular problem with Macs and drives, including a number of them on latest & greatest Mac releases on Apple's own support forums. You'll also find many very hopeful headlines & videos that offer "the solution to Mac unexpected ejections" until you dig into the solution and typically find the person thought they had it, it seemed to work and then the unexpected ejections resume again.

I've been there. I've worked through ALL of the apparent solutions that users can try. I've dug out every USB hard drive I've owned in the last 20+ years to try to test a wide variety of hardware, firmware, drives, cables, brands, etc. I've attacked the most blamed issue- SLEEP- by not letting my problematic drive or Mac sleep at all only to watch it unexpectedly eject while actively transferring files to/from it (so obviously nothing is asleep). I've tried the deep stuff like tweaking a terminal setting that one can find if they really dig into this topic. Etc.

It's this great effort and chasing every rabbit down every hole that led me to conclude that the problem is macOS. I'll grant that I could be wrong about that as the one thing I can't do is install pre BigSur on my Silicon Mac. So I've basically landed at macOS as best guess.

Leave this thread and come back in a week or two and there will be 5 or 10 new posts blaming cable, user, firmware, etc... which- if true- great... but then we would have already resolved this problem years ago and all of these many threads would name the bad cable or specific enclosure or specific firmware. However, all that really works is enclosure roulette: try different ones until you find one that can stay connected. Retire the one that won't or use it with old Macs or any PC where it will be perfectly stable.

I'm towards 99% convinced that there will eventually be some modest or even minor macOS update where this problem will be resolved for just about all. Why? Because that will be the one where programmers finally worked over the specific macOS code that is at the root of this problem. Nobody will have to change cables, change firmware, change drive, etc... it will just resume working again as- for many of us- the drives worked before we went BigSur or newer. As new versions come out, people test what was "old reliable" hoping that this one will be the one... only to be disappointed that once again, another episode of NOT "just works" persists. Yet we hope and hope and hope that our newest Macs will be able to do a "Universal" thing that our older Macs were able to do... and can still do.
 
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platinumaqua

macrumors 6502
Oct 11, 2021
481
738
I just want to chime in and say that I got the eject message on wake when the USB drive is connected directly to my MBP 14". I also had compatibility issues with certain USB 3.1 Gen 2 enclosures unable to negotiate at 10 Gb/s when connected to the computer. I happened to have a Thunderbolt 3 dock (the older kind that doesn't support USB tunneling) from work and used it to troubleshoot the issue and it's apparent that the problem only happens when the device is connected to the computer's built-in USB controller and not the separate USB controller in the dock.

It's little things like this and other problems (and such problems always surface after the return period ended) that made Apple Silicon Macs lose their luster for me. When this Mac bites the dust, I'm likely going to switch to a PC laptop.
 

kagharaht

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Oct 7, 2007
1,707
1,400
So I started using the Apple Dongles to connect USB TO USBC on the iMac directly no HUB, also using those little Anker connectors also in the mix. So any USB 2 or 3 type DEVICE i use are all connected directly to the iMac and no HUB. All 4 ports are filled now. So far so good.
 

HobeSoundDarryl

macrumors G5
So I started using the Apple Dongles to connect USB TO USBC on the iMac directly no HUB, also using those little Anker connectors also in the mix. So any USB 2 or 3 type DEVICE i use are all connected directly to the iMac and no HUB. All 4 ports are filled now. So far so good.

Are you saying that you had a problematic ejecting enclosure that when connected through a $19 dongle no longer unexpectedly ejects?
 
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kagharaht

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Oct 7, 2007
1,707
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It's weird that these cheap Apple Made Dongles and Anker seems to work, as long as its directly connected to the iMac ports. I'll post as soon as it happens because I still have no confidence that it will keep working. lol
 

HobeSoundDarryl

macrumors G5
How many days have you had a consistent connection? I'll readily- but begrudgingly- spend $20 to get my own "old faithful" back in dependable service with my latest Mac.

And which specific Anker dongle are you saying also works for you? This one? If so, I see a very common review post that cites this very issue (but the usual negative outcome)...

UnexpectedEjection.jpg


Nevertheless, I'd welcome any claim for ANYTHING I've not already tried that fully resolves the "unexpected ejection" problem on Macs running macOS newer than BigSur. So if it hasn't been very long for you and you give it enough time to be confident that this cured it for you, I'd LOVE to know that. It would be so, soooooooo helpful to finally bring an important BIG amount of storage back into dependable use with my main Mac system. The same- through the same cable (and all else beyond the cable)- remains connected to several OLD Macs and a new PC with no such ejections... just not my "latest & greatest" newest Mac.

Update: I went ahead and ordered the Apple one and look forward to trying it with fingers crossed, rabbits foot rubbed, horseshoe pointing upwards, wishing upon a star, finding 4-leaf clover, etc all in play too. Based on trying so many other things, I'm pessimistic but desperate enough to try a solution that involves giving Apple even more money to potentially make the U in USB mean what it is supposed to mean again.
 
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kagharaht

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Oct 7, 2007
1,707
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I should have written the exact date on my notes. I'm pretty sure since I did the Erase All Contents and setting and setting up as new. May 6 I believe going back on this thread. I then stuck 2 of the Apple 19 Dollar Dongles, 1 Anker Adapter like the one you posted (I have 4 of these my wife uses on her MBA M2) and the Satechi USB Slim Dock with a Crucial P2 2TB 3D NAND NVMe. All 4 ports on the iMac now used. What I plug in occasionally when needed: I have an external SanDisk Ultra® 3D SSD - 1TB in a Oyen MiniPro 2.5" SATA to USB 3.1 (USB-C) External Aluminum Hard Drive HDD/Solid State SSD Enclosure.

So once in awhile before the erase all contents, the SSD guys would just drop off during use. Or one of the powered external spinner drives would not mount unless I plug it in and out again or reboot the iMac M3.

Soon as one of these guys stop connecting I'll post here. Bu this is just an iMac M3, nothing fancy or mid-high end and stuff I have these days retired are simple Seagate external backup drives, Epson V550 and BR cheap Reader.
 
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platinumaqua

macrumors 6502
Oct 11, 2021
481
738
So I started using the Apple Dongles to connect USB TO USBC on the iMac directly no HUB, also using those little Anker connectors also in the mix. So any USB 2 or 3 type DEVICE i use are all connected directly to the iMac and no HUB. All 4 ports are filled now. So far so good.
Interesting, so you are going USB C -> A (via cable) -> C (via adapter)?
 

kagharaht

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Oct 7, 2007
1,707
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Interesting, so you are going USB C -> A (via cable) -> C (via adapter)?
Yes. I'm not plugging anything that requires High Speed that requires Thunderbolt Pro 4 cable for the iMac that I have. I just want to keep the external Hard Disk Spinner Drives and a couple of external SSD drives connected and not just disconnect on its own. I don't have to have 10gb or 40gb transfer speeds for what I do. I just want them to stay connected. I think these dongles or the Anker ones do 5gb transfer rates. Anyway, soon as they start to disconnected on its own I'll post it but so far they are still staying connected.


 

brsilb

macrumors regular
Mar 3, 2018
201
68
May be coincidence but was getting many ejects while using Norton 365. Uninstalledit and have not had one since. It's been 2 days.
 

kagharaht

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Oct 7, 2007
1,707
1,400
May be coincidence but was getting many ejects while using Norton 365. Uninstalledit and have not had one since. It's been 2 days.
My iMac is running near Vanilla Mac OS Sonoma. Meaning after I did an Erase All Contents and settings, I added no Utility type Apps.
 

kagharaht

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Oct 7, 2007
1,707
1,400
Update: I went ahead and ordered the Apple one and look forward to trying it with fingers crossed, rabbits foot rubbed, horseshoe pointing upwards, wishing upon a star, finding 4-leaf clover, etc all in play too. Based on trying so many other things, I'm pessimistic but desperate enough to try a solution that involves giving Apple even more money to potentially make the U in USB mean what it is supposed to mean again.
Hi, any updates on this setup? Are you still getting the disconnects using the Apple Dongles?
 

Menthol

macrumors member
Jul 28, 2013
59
86
Is there a consensus here (ha) that this problem is any worse in Sonoma than it is in Ventura? If I upgrade to Ventura and my external drives seem stable, can I safely upgrade to Sonoma? Thx.
 

kagharaht

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Oct 7, 2007
1,707
1,400
Is there a consensus here (ha) that this problem is any worse in Sonoma than it is in Ventura? If I upgrade to Ventura and my external drives seem stable, can I safely upgrade to Sonoma? Thx.
Since using the attached Apple Dongles for my USB-A type connections, I have not gotten the unexpected disk eject issues. I also did a full Erase all contents and settings in Sonoma and set up as new with NO migration from Time Machine or any backup drives. I manually moved my files back and redownloaded all my Apps from the App Store or Developers. I let the iMac M3 sleep now for weeks and left the drives attached. No disconnects yet since those steps.
 

HobeSoundDarryl

macrumors G5
I was hoping to followup with better news but just completed thorough testing with kagharahts suggestion of trying Apple's USB-C to USB dongle and the third party option to do the same. Both didn't make any difference on a M2 Mac Mini with attached (new) HDD... seemingly same volume and general (but not perfectly predictable) pace of "unexpected ejections."

In this one's case, the unexpected ejection notifications stack up. For example, ignore the Mac for many hours and then turn on the monitor and be likely to see 8 or more "unexpected ejection” notifications running down the right side. Also in this one case, those notifications seem to be notifications only as the named drive is NOT ejected and works normally.

In another Silicon Mac (Studio) case with a hardware RAID HDD attached, "unexpected ejections" means FULLY ejected, requiring either rebooting to reconnect or pulling the plug on that drive and re-attaching (or powering it off and then back on again).

In BOTH cases, both Macs are running latest Sonoma, both using different cables and different drives (and thus each drive using their own firmware, their own drives, etc). So before I get replies blaming cable/firmware/drive, note that I've tested with MANY enclosures, MANY cables, MANY drives so the usual redirection really doesn't do anything for me. I know all about sleep settings, amphetamine app, etc too. I'd like "just works" (again).

This idea was one of the few I had not tested but found it interesting in that it would actually be making a USB connection through a Thunderbolt/USB-C port with a hardware dongle as middleman link. Conceptually, if there is something wrong with macOS port/power handling- as I very much suspect- this idea would shift the USB connection to other hardware and make the Mac connection on thunderbolt ports.

However, just thoroughly tried both and both didn't work with two Mac setups. Pull the cable and plug it into any pre-Big Sur Mac or any PC and the drive is perfectly stable again.

So- like many- I suspect kagharaht just "got lucky" with their particular enclosure. As shared previously, a selection of enclosures work fine and a selection have this problem. It's not brand based, it's almost certainly NOT firmware or cable, it's likely NOT user or user settings, and this problem apparently first manifested with Big Sur. It seems to be more prevalent with RAID HDD enclosures and least prevalent with single drive SSD... but I haven't seen enough posts to say this with greater confidence like the rest.

Some- like me- have a perfectly functional external with pre-Big Sur Macs that then has this problem AFTER upgrading to Big Sur or newer. Some have upgraded, rammed into this problem and then downgraded their Mac again and the problematic external resumes stable operation. I don't know what better identifies the problem than that... as it's same cable, same enclosure, same firmware, same drive, same brand, same user and same user settings. Only ONE variable changes in that scenario. Thus, therein- I suspect- lies this problem.

Something changed with Big Sur: I suspect remnant iDevice code aiming to minimize power drain to preserve iDevice batteries that simply works the power down too low and loses the connection to some drives. Hypothesis #2 is that the ports "crash" from time to time and some enclosures handle their reboot better than others.

"Sleep" gets the most common blame but I believe that's an illusion in that sleep periods often involve many hours and it's that passage of time- not necessarily sleep- that triggers the ejections. Why? Because in my own tests, I've had many "unexpected ejections" while actively transferring files between Mac and drive... so obviously neither end can possibly be asleep.

Again, while it would have been a bit aggravating to discover that one needs to pay extra for an Apple dongle and "waste" a Thunderbolt port to achieve a stable USB connection, I had some hope for this one as a potential temp solution for many. It did not work on TWO separate setups for me. Maybe someone else gives it a try and finds it works for them? At least it's something else to try than blame the user, their cable, their specific enclosure or its firmware, their drive, etc in spite of countless others having the SAME problem and its impossible for all of them to be using the same cable, enclosure, etc.

Sorry I couldn't confirm some new "good news" on this one. I genuinely hoped it would work. My temporarily-retired enclosure (unless I hook it to a pre-Big Sur Mac or PC where it functions perfectly fine) has big storage I'd like to reliably use in my day to day. Instead, it sleeps awaiting Apple to get around to fixing the bug(s) in macOS that causes this problem for some- but not all- of us.
 
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kagharaht

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Oct 7, 2007
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Darn! I was hoping it worked for your set up. You are right, I guess I got lucky for now. Hope it stays that way with future update from Apple. Sonoma and whatever it is the next one and next one and next one...
 
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star-affinity

macrumors 68000
Nov 14, 2007
1,996
1,333
OK, I've found out that the Orico enclosure I have is using the ASM2464PD chipset and they suggest I should try one of their enclosures with the Intel JHL7440 chipset. Do you think that will help?

I guess maybe give it a go and see...
Also thinking about first trying with a 40 Gbps capable USB-C cable and see if that makes a difference with the enclosure I already have.
 

Fishrrman

macrumors Penryn
Feb 20, 2009
29,234
13,305
The problem with "disks being ejected improperly" has been around since USB first appeared on Macs (perhaps even earlier, though I don't remember it with SCSI).

If Apple could have fixed it, they would have done so by now.

A Fishrrman 100% fearless prediction:
This is not going to "go away".
It "is what it is".

Since for many (most?) Mac users, the USB devices used and connection schemes are all different, it's impossible to offer a solution that works "for one" that is guaranteed to work "for many".

Each user has to find "his or her own way" that works best, and walk that path.
 

star-affinity

macrumors 68000
Nov 14, 2007
1,996
1,333
The problem with "disks being ejected improperly" has been around since USB first appeared on Macs (perhaps even earlier, though I don't remember it with SCSI).

If Apple could have fixed it, they would have done so by now.

A Fishrrman 100% fearless prediction:
This is not going to "go away".
It "is what it is".

Since for many (most?) Mac users, the USB devices used and connection schemes are all different, it's impossible to offer a solution that works "for one" that is guaranteed to work "for many".

Each user has to find "his or her own way" that works best, and walk that path.
Can’t say that I agree. It’s been around if people do disconnect the drives incorrectly, not otherwise. I have external backup drives connected to two Macs at work that never disconnects.

I can also say I tried have my troublesome enclosure connected during some time today to see if there is a difference with the recently released Sonoma 14.6 update and everything was stable, even sleep and resume worked! So. Maybe Apple did something? Or I was just lucky. Will evaluate it more before making conclusions.
 

HobeSoundDarryl

macrumors G5
The problem with "disks being ejected improperly" has been around since USB first appeared on Macs (perhaps even earlier, though I don't remember it with SCSI).

If Apple could have fixed it, they would have done so by now.

A Fishrrman 100% fearless prediction:
This is not going to "go away".
It "is what it is".

Since for many (most?) Mac users, the USB devices used and connection schemes are all different, it's impossible to offer a solution that works "for one" that is guaranteed to work "for many".

Each user has to find "his or her own way" that works best, and walk that path.

This is different than "it's always been a problem with USB."

For many of us, myself included, we have enclosures that worked fine with macOS and Mac USB ports up to a macOS upgrade (Big Sur) or newer, and then suddenly the very same drives with the same chipsets and the same cable hooked to the same USB ports could not stay connected to Mac. In some cases, people report downgrading again because they need the drive more than they need BigSur or newer and magically, the drive becomes perfectly stable again.

In my case, I can take the very same enclosure, same firmware, same disc, same cable and hook it up to several old Macs in my home and it is perfectly stable again. Bring it back to any Mac running BigSur or newer and it can't remain connected for more than about 3 hours (for me- others have different amounts of time).

I agree that there are cases dating back to USB replacing SCSI... but this is very likely NOT that. Instead, something changed in macOS at BigSur... which coincided with the launch of Silicon. We can somewhat rule out Silicon itself by "drive works fine", "upgrade to BigSur or newer on Intel Macs", "unexpected ejections"... downgrade to pre-BigSur and it works again... all connected to the SAME USB jacks.

I believe something in port management/power management was changed when Silicon took over and now we live in a much more hit or miss world when it comes to external drives... where the "miss" was much rarer than it is now. Existed? Yes it did... but MUCH rarer! Those incidences tend to happen occasionally. These incidences are somewhat predictable and can be repeated over and over again by just waiting the typical amount of time for an enclosure to eject.

I've tested the crap out of this with MANY drives old (even ancients that I had long-since retired) and new and arrived at a conclusion- through much process of elimination- that there are bugs in macOS causing this... that have remained since BigSur.
 
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Ben J.

macrumors 65816
Aug 29, 2019
1,063
623
Oslo
I'm sorry if this has been answered already, I haven't read the whole thread; No matter how the "disk improperly ejected" alert was provoked, by some bug or because it was physically unplugged, what are the possible implications, if any? Loss of data? Data corruption? Possible hardware damage? I'm guessing it would be different between with HD spinners and SSDs?

I've had it happen now and then for as long as can remember, and I can't remember it ever having any bad consequences at all.

Hoping for replies from people with actual knowledge about the inner workings of macOS and its filesystem, rather than assumptions and guesswork.

My guess; it's nothing to worry about.
Apart from the inconvenience, of course.
 

HobeSoundDarryl

macrumors G5
I'm sorry if this has been answered already, I haven't read the whole thread; No matter how the "disk improperly ejected" alert was provoked, by some bug or because it was physically unplugged, what are the possible implications, if any? Loss of data?

Yes

Data corruption?

Yes

Possible hardware damage?

Probably not… but enough corruption can require a full reformat, so all is lost unless backed up… ironically on ANOTHER drive. 🎉

This problem should not be marginalized. It’s a real thing that can lead to meaningful problems for those of us who depend on external drives to do whatever we do.

And how do you find out if any given drive is affected? When it happens.
 
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