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djjeff

macrumors 6502
Jun 10, 2020
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They're still making Power architecture CPUs, currently on POWER9…And Intel's struggles to improve its designs are well-documented. AMD is making a significant dent in Intel's market dominance, because they keep making better chips at lower prices. Intel will catch up, eventually, but its current performance is resting on past laurels. Whatever Apple's going to do, it's not going to accept this for another few years.
POWER 9 is a "specialized" processor which is used in, relatively speaking, specialized systems. If PPC had a future I suspect it would have seen continued improvements.

As for AMD perhaps it would be wise to differentiate between Intel and X64 as AMD has demonstrated they can do some x64 things better than Intel. So is it a question of ARM versus Intel? Or ARM versus x64? Or both?

There's a term much used in financial ads over here: 'Past performance is not an indication of future results'. Which is true here, to an extent. Trying to use Windows on ARM as a benchmark is pointless, because Microsoft hasn't really bothered optimising it, macOS ARM certainly will be, and none of the ARM chips for the platform are on a par with Apple's. Let alone ARM chips with heftier power envelopes and desktop-grade cooling…
I am not sure there's much incentive for Microsoft to optimize their software for ARM. IMO ARM hasn't demonstrated some vast superiority which would provide sufficient incentive to do so.

I think there's a lot of unsupported performance claims that ARM is going to be significantly better than x64. I think it reasonable to temper those claims. I recall similar claims with PPC versus x86 and ultimately the x86 won out. I want to see actual shipping hardware (not iPhone SoCs) before putting a nail in the x64 coffin.
 
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pasamio

macrumors 6502
Jan 22, 2020
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It certainly won't be easy but they've shown they can deliver in the mobile arena which is actually a very hard market you may notice Intel doesn't offer any mobile phone chips anymore they simply couldn't compete, it was too hard for them. But here is Apple who doesn't even make chips swooping in with the undisputed best processor on mobile bar none.

Intel could make their own ARM processor.

Intel do have ARM processors, it's just not aimed directly at the mobile phone market. Checkout the SoC FPGA line up.
 

StuAff

macrumors 6502
Aug 6, 2007
391
261
Portsmouth, UK
POWER 9 is a "specialized" processor which is used in, relatively speaking, specialized systems. If PPC had a future I suspect it would have seen continued improvements.

As for AMD perhaps it would be wise to differentiate between Intel and X64 as AMD has demonstrated they can do some x64 things better than Intel. So is it a question of ARM versus Intel? Or ARM versus x64? Or both?


I am not sure there's much incentive for Microsoft to optimize their software for ARM. IMO ARM hasn't demonstrated some vast superiority which would provide sufficient incentive to do so.

I think there's a lot of unsupported performance claims that ARM is going to be significantly better than x64. I think it reasonable to temper those claims. I recall similar claims with PPC versus x86 and ultimately the x86 won out. I want to see actual shipping hardware (not iPhone SoCs) before putting a nail in the x64 coffin.
PPC's only desktop customer left it. And 'specialized' as it is, POWER is still being improved.

It's an Apple CPU vs Intel CPU thing, primarily. AMD I have no doubt wants Apple's business, and I don't think anyone would be fretting if we got an EPYC or Threadripper in the next Mac Pro. If we had that already, I for one would probably have bought one. As Ryzentoshes have proved, no reason why they couldn't work very well indeed.

Again, ARM does not design or build the CPUs Apple uses, the architecture is licenced from them. If Apple are going to the effort of designing a desktop CPU range, it will have performance as good or better than Intel (TBF, not that hard at the moment). They wouldn't bother otherwise. And why would there need to be a nail in the x86 coffin? Apple cannot lose here. If it's making its own chips because they're better/faster/cheaper, win. If Intel catches up and makes better/faster/cheaper, it switches back, win.

Performance claims are not unsupported. ARM designs have zero presence in the desktop market. So, just total dominance in the mobile market and high competitiveness in the supercomputer market to suggest it might work out OK, then....
 
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Quu

macrumors 68040
Apr 2, 2007
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Intel could make their own ARM processor.

They could make ARM processors appropriate for phones but that would divide their resources internally and if you've not noticed they basically have a duopoly over x86 processors with AMD. I expect that alone is reason enough for them to not venture outside of this instruction set.

But my point was they tried to do x86 on phones. Some Android handsets launched with single and I think dual core ATOM processors but they failed to catch on. They couldn't crack the market or were unwilling to do what was necessary.
 

djjeff

macrumors 6502
Jun 10, 2020
318
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Again, ARM does not design or build the CPUs Apple uses, the architecture is licenced from them. If Apple are going to the effort of designing a desktop CPU range, it will have performance as good or better than Intel (TBF, not that hard at the moment). They wouldn't bother otherwise. And why would there need to be a nail in the x86 coffin? Apple cannot lose here. If it's making its own chips because they're better/faster/cheaper, win. If Intel catches up and makes better/faster/cheaper, it switches back, win.
ARM is a specification, not an implementation. As for being able to produce an higher performant ARM processor being "both that hard" you sound as if Intel are a fly by night company that has no idea how to produce high performance processor. I think that attitude is misplaced and it is this attitude I object to. Maybe Apple can produce an ARM processor which outperforms an Intel processor. However history has demonstrated Intel has the ability to hit back and hit back hard.

Performance claims are not unsupported. ARM designs have zero presence in the desktop market. So, just total dominance in the mobile market and high competitiveness in the supercomputer market to suggest it might work out OK, then....
Pretty much which is why I challenge the very next sentence of yours.

Do I think ARM can be faster than x64? I do. Do I agree with the group think that it is so much better that Apple produced processors are going to be the panacea for processor performance that Macintosh is going to rule the world? Nope, not at all.
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But my point was they tried to do x86 on phones. Some Android handsets launched with single and I think dual core ATOM processors but they failed to catch on. They couldn't crack the market or were unwilling to do what was necessary.
I agree with this statement.
 
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StuAff

macrumors 6502
Aug 6, 2007
391
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Portsmouth, UK
ARM is a specification, not an implementation. As for being able to produce an higher performant ARM processor being "both that hard" you sound as if Intel are a fly by night company that has no idea how to produce high performance processor. I think that attitude is misplaced and it is this attitude I object to. Maybe Apple can produce an ARM processor which outperforms an Intel processor. However history has demonstrated Intel has the ability to hit back and hit back hard.

Pretty much which is why I challenge the very next sentence of yours.

Do I think ARM can be faster than x64? I do. Do I agree with the group think that it is so much better that Apple produced processors are going to be the panacea for processor performance that Macintosh is going to rule the world? Nope, not at all.
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I agree with this statement.
On a performance per watt basis, Apple's designs in current, mobile, use, are clearly superior in many respects to Intel's offerings in the desktop or laptop space. Other ARM licencees are making inroads in supercomputing and developing some interesting products in the server space. It's hardly a great leap to suggest that Apple desktop and laptop CPUs might be somewhat compelling, for them and for us users. Intel clearly do know how to produce high performance CPUs, I've bought enough of them over the years. But, as you seem unwilling to admit, they have floundered in recent times, in performance if not market share. They will, no doubt, eventually catch up with TSMC's process advantage, that AMD and Apple are currently benefitting from. But how long will that take? Apple will not merely accept whatever Intel will give them as their own chip design teams keep making advance, after advance, after advance. If Intel wins Apple's business back, and it'll want it back, it should be on merit. No-one mentioned 'panacea' or world domination, except you.
 
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djjeff

macrumors 6502
Jun 10, 2020
318
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On a performance per watt basis, Apple's designs in current, mobile, use, are clearly superior in many respects to Intel's offerings in the desktop or laptop space.
This is not a like for like comparison and therefore irrelevant.

Other ARM licencees are making inroads in supercomputing and developing some interesting products in the server space. It's hardly a great leap to suggest that Apple desktop and laptop CPUs might be somewhat compelling, for them and for us users.
I think an Apple ARM CPU has potential. The question is: To what degree. I've read a lot of pro Apple ARM posts on this site and if the performance claims are to be believed then Intel needs to liquidate or find some other pursuit.

Intel clearly do know how to produce high performance CPUs, I've bought enough of them over the years. But, as you seem unwilling to admit, they have floundered in recent times, in performance if not market share. They will, no doubt, eventually catch up with TSMC's process advantage, that AMD and Apple are currently benefitting from. But how long will that take? Apple will not merely accept whatever Intel will give them as their own chip design teams keep making advance, after advance, after advance. If Intel wins Apple's business back, and it'll want it back, it should be on merit. No-one mentioned 'panacea' or world domination, except you.
Then let's me be perfectly clear: Intel has floundered as of late. That out of the way does their floundering mean an Apple ARM implementation will be significantly better? Or have longevity?

I've been through this before with the PPC. According to the Mac advocates PPC was the best thing to happen to the processor market. It was new, exciting, and it was RISC. But then something happened...it ended up being a dead end which led to Apple's adoption of x86.

Will ARM follow suit? Only time will tell. But the transition from PPC to x86 had one significant benefit which I see as a sep back for x64 to ARM...the ability to natively run x64 software. Which meant the ability to natively run Windows and its huge software library. Will Mac purists (i.e. those only using macOS specific software) care? Unlikely. But I think the move by Apple to use x86 had a huge benefit in being able to natively run Windows and its associate software. Thus it was a low risk because if a user couldn't find a native macOS application they could always fall back to Windows with very little penalty.
 

StuAff

macrumors 6502
Aug 6, 2007
391
261
Portsmouth, UK
This is not a like for like comparison and therefore irrelevant
Performance per watt is most definitely relevant. Why Apple switched to Intel in the first place. And as you very well know, there is no like for like comparison in the marketplace. Not this week, at least.
I think an Apple ARM CPU has potential. The question is: To what degree. I've read a lot of pro Apple ARM posts on this site and if the performance claims are to be believed then Intel needs to liquidate or find some other pursuit.


Then let's me be perfectly clear: Intel has floundered as of late. That out of the way does their floundering mean an Apple ARM implementation will be significantly better? Or have longevity?

I've been through this before with the PPC. According to the Mac advocates PPC was the best thing to happen to the processor market. It was new, exciting, and it was RISC. But then something happened...it ended up being a dead end which led to Apple's adoption of x86.

Will ARM follow suit? Only time will tell. But the transition from PPC to x86 had one significant benefit which I see as a sep back for x64 to ARM...the ability to natively run x64 software. Which meant the ability to natively run Windows and its huge software library. Will Mac purists (i.e. those only using macOS specific software) care? Unlikely. But I think the move by Apple to use x86 had a huge benefit in being able to natively run Windows and its associate software. Thus it was a low risk because if a user couldn't find a native macOS application they could always fall back to Windows with very little penalty.
Intel clearly doesn't need to liquidate, but it needs to catch up in the high-end market. It certainly plans to do so, but that will take a lot of time and money.

I had three Power PC Macs. It was the best thing to happen to the processor market, in the 90s. Dead end? Nope. IBM and Motorola/Freescale did, eventually, flounder just like Intel is now. But it was definitely the right product at the time, despite John Sculley saying with hindsight he should have gone with Intel. First gen PPC had a clear advantage over the Pentium. G3s wiped the floor with PII. G4s…still at least competitive with P4, often faster. G5: fast yes, but the wheels came off.

If Apple move away from x86 permanently, which is by no means certain (either moving, or permanently), they'll have taken usage (or not) of Boot Camp and VMs into consideration. Not having native Windows boot would be annoying, but there will be ways and means to get Windows running, and all Intel Mac software running, if this move happens, officially or unofficially.

This is not a dead end, no more than the Power PC or Intel transitions were. Just another phase. When Apple decides to move on to another new architecture, or go back to Intel, or switch to AMD, it will.
 
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zephonic

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djjeff

macrumors 6502
Jun 10, 2020
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Performance per watt is most definitely relevant. Why Apple switched to Intel in the first place. And as you very well know, there is no like for like comparison in the marketplace. Not this week, at least.
I am very much well aware there is no like for like comparison so I wish people would stop making comparisons.

Intel clearly doesn't need to liquidate, but it needs to catch up in the high-end market. It certainly plans to do so, but that will take a lot of time and money.
If we're to believe the Apple ARM hype Intel certainly should liquidate or at the least give up on making PC processors. If we're to believe the hype Apple has the magic elixar to make the best "desktop" processor and no one else will ever be able to compete.

I had three Power PC Macs. It was the best thing to happen to the processor market, in the 90s. Dead end? Nope. IBM and Motorola/Freescale did, eventually, flounder just like Intel is now. But it was definitely the right product at the time, despite John Sculley saying with hindsight he should have gone with Intel. First gen PPC had a clear advantage over the Pentium. G3s wiped the floor with PII. G4s…still at least competitive with P4, often faster. G5: fast yes, but the wheels came off.
So why isn't Apple currently using PPC? After all it was better than x86.

If Apple move away from x86 permanently, which is by no means certain (either moving, or permanently), they'll have taken usage (or not) of Boot Camp and VMs into consideration. Not having native Windows boot would be annoying, but there will be ways and means to get Windows running, and all Intel Mac software running, if this move happens, officially or unofficially.
I have no doubt they've taken virtualization / native code into account.

This is not a dead end, no more than the Power PC or Intel transitions were. Just another phase. If Apple decides to move on to another new architecture, or go back to Intel, or switch to AMD, it will.
IMO this move isn't about moving away from Intel but rather a move away from x64. I also don't feel it is solely for performance reasons.
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Intel does make mobile phone chips: https://www.intel.in/content/www/in/en/products/devices-systems/smartphones.html

But they're not very good at it, that's why leading phone manufacturers don't use them.

Also, it seems like you don't understand how CPU performance across architectures and platforms is measured. Quu has an excellent post on it on the first page of this thread.
The discussion was about Intel making an ARM based chip. To my knowledge ATOM is not such a chip.
 
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zephonic

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So why isn't Apple currently using PPC? After all it was better than x86.

Because they didn't have the capability to design their own processors, they relied on IBM to make newer and faster CPU's to compete with Intel. For IBM it was an unprofitable business so they didn't really pursue it.

The switch to Intel was out of necessity, it was clear nobody was going to pick up the PPC baton and run with it.
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I am very much well aware there is no like for like comparison so I wish people would stop making comparisons.

Please read this: https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...e-future-of-the-mac-pro.2240535/post-28547665
 

StuAff

macrumors 6502
Aug 6, 2007
391
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Portsmouth, UK
I am very much well aware there is no like for like comparison so I wish people would stop making comparisons.
Not what you were posting upthread. And Apple has certainly done these comparisons…

If we're to believe the Apple ARM hype Intel certainly should liquidate or at the least give up on making PC processors. If we're to believe the hype Apple has the magic elixar to make the best "desktop" processor and no one else will ever be able to compete.
No, and no.

IMO this move isn't about moving away from Intel but rather a move away from x64. I also don't feel it is solely for performance reasons.

The discussion was about Intel making an ARM based chip. To my knowledge ATOM is not such a chip.
x86 has very little to do with it. The OS will run on any processor architecture Apple wants it to. Apple wants to be able to launch faster/cheaper/lower power consumption products. It thinks it can do better than Intel, for the next few years. So it'll switch, for the next few years.
 

djjeff

macrumors 6502
Jun 10, 2020
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Not what you were posting upthread. And Apple has certainly done these comparisons…
What do you believe I was posting "up thread"?

x86 has very little to do with it. The OS will run on any processor architecture Apple wants it to. Apple wants to be able to launch faster/cheaper/lower power consumption products. It thinks it can do better than Intel, for the next few years. So it'll switch, for the next few years.
I fully agree Apple thinks it can do so. If they can they'll somehow have achieved something most everyone else has been unable to do. I'll believe it when I see it.
 

StuAff

macrumors 6502
Aug 6, 2007
391
261
Portsmouth, UK
What do you believe I was posting "up thread"?
I am asking you which desktop ARM CPU you're referring to.
Whereas, if the rumours are true, this desktop ARM CPU is sitting in an Apple lab right now, and has been benchmarked against Intel and most likely AMD equivalents.
I fully agree Apple thinks it can do so. If they can they'll somehow have achieved something most everyone else has been unable to do. I'll believe it when I see it.
AMD clearly has been more than able to match, and beat, Intel in recent years.
 
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djjeff

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Jun 10, 2020
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Whereas, if the rumours are true, this desktop ARM CPU is sitting in an Apple lab right now, and has been benchmarked against Intel and most likely AMD equivalents.
So show me the performance data of this desktop ARM CPU.

AMD clearly has been more than able to match, and beat, Intel in recent years.
Is this discussion about Intel or x64? IMO it's about x64 and not any one manufacturer.
 
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zephonic

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The discussion was about Intel making an ARM based chip. To my knowledge ATOM is not such a chip.

FYI, Intel does make ARM chips:

https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/intel-arm-processors-why-how-who/



They are just a foundry who manufactures ARM chips for others, like TSMC.
 
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JPack

macrumors G5
Mar 27, 2017
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FYI, Intel does make ARM chips:

https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/intel-arm-processors-why-how-who/



They are just a foundry who manufactures ARM chips for others, like TSMC.

Intel did make full-fledged ARM processors back in early to mid-2000s. XScale was used in everything from BlackBerry to iPaqs. Intel exited the ARM market just before the iPhone was introduced. They still have an ARM license.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
....
How many processors do you you think Apple needs to produce? Consider, for a family of current generation iPhones and iPads, they only use two processors at slightly different clock rates.

The use of "hand me down" and minor clock speed tweaks to cover lots of products is the point. Apple only has 2 maybe 3 active lines to cover the iOS-tvOS-iPadOS-Speaker space. That's is about 10-12 products with just a fraction of the new instances each year. Large majority here is "older stuff" into newer products.

The current Mac line is far more spread out.



At least four , probably five if not six. It is far more than just about tech CPU benchmark scores and up/down clocking. Each one of these is different die which would need its own validation and certification. It isn’t like it is 5 “moonshot” efforts, but it far more work that Apple has done for far lower unit volumes produced. The “un-cores” stuff matters.


1. Mac Pro / iMac Pro — high I/O bandwidth , lane count ( multiple discrete GPUs , etc. ) and core count. ( very low need for > 2 low power cores. If no macOS scheduler changes then count capped around 32. May need SMT/Hyperthreading to be competitive ) Possible sacriice iGPU for more those previous two items ( or at very least minimize its footprint ). quad digit ECC GB RAM capacity handling ( and appropriate MMU caches and structures for that).

2. iMac 27” — mid range I/O bandwidth, lane count ( one discrete GPU and 4-5 20Gb/s ports ) and core count . low to mid range iGPU. Triple digit GB RAM capacity handling.


( possible chop down core count for iMac. 21-24” models if have mid range iGPU )


3. Mini , MacBook Pro 16 — bigger still iGPU (than above) , mid-range I/O , lane count ( one discrete GPU although Mini probably doesn’t use that. ) . Double Digit RAM capacity handling.

( possible iMac 21-24 model with no dGPU options.


dragging the Mini into the mobile targeted processor space will probably open a gap versus what Intel / AMD options for 10-20W more. )


4. MacBook Pro 13” , MacBook Air. biggest iGPU ( no discrete GPU lane allocation) , double digit RAM capacity handling

5. Macbook ( über , ultra light . always connected ) small tweak on iPad Pro : maximize SoC . Modem integrated ( or interface is Apple still doing discrete ). Just enough for ports I/O ( no possible dGPU ) [ This is Apple’s Captain Ahab chase for thinnest, lightest laptop. ]


Something like “chiplets” isn’t likely going to solve the issues items 4 and 5 bring up. It isn’t doing it for AMD now and likely won’t for Apple later.

Apple could possibly toss the Mac Pro / iMac Pro category away and drop one that way. could merge what is left of the Mini and iMac into one. And the MBP 16 , 13 , and MBA into one. that would get down to three. But is the Mini-iMac really going to be completive across the whole range with what AMD (and Intel ) have?

So that would be a around at least doubling of the number of active designs they'd need to be working on. Yes, there would be overlap in the basic core implementations ( at least for the non Mac Pro / iMac Pro if try to be SMT competitive). But there is variations on I/O that will some individual work that would need to be done.

If Apple only does one laptop and one desktop design and plays with just clock speed to stretch that over 7-9 products then they will probably loose. ( That very probably won't meet the need). Even 3-4 over 7 products is quite thin given what the competitors are doing.

On the other hand if doing "custom" processors to get them out being "painted into a corner" could end up with six if try to get the Mac Mini out of its corner ( and don't "double duty" it with an iMac or MBP 16" solution. )


Apple cold 'punt' the desktop/workstation versions to a 3rd party to do ( Ampere or some new upstart ) but that wouldn't be "control for control" sake. That also may not get them the pricing ( volume of those sold to other players in same general market ) or execution of new product that was significantly better than both Intel and AMD .


I don’t think so. Apple’s made it clear that they see their future in iOS type products. If anything, they would grow iOS, but, in that case, they have an iPad that’s cheaper than any Mac.

Apple put effort into the iPhone SE 2020 version because iPhone penetration has stalled in developing country markets. Apple is running into a growth problem because they have priced their stuff out being affordable to the vast majority of people on the planet. Not going to get product growth if folks can't/won't buy the product. Similar with iPads where Chromebooks were eating the iPad's lunch until Apple come out with the "often on sale under $300" iPad model. ( iPads aren't always winners down market. It has had (and continues to have problem in some areas).

Similar issue is percolating with Macs. It is going to get even worse if AMD and Intel engage in a protracted price war on mainstream desktop CPUs. Being able to build "thinnest and lightest" laptop with new Apple processor isn't going to mean much there.

If Apple is going to toss aside Intel and AMD then they have to out compete both of them. Outside of the lightest of light laptops they have tons of unproven work to do. Once plugged into a wall for power... Apple is bring what to the table?

If "iOS is all that matters" is the future then they should just do an 'iBook' or iPadBook and put iPad OS inside clamshell. ( basically an always attached keyboard versus the $300 external one.). Likewise Apple could retreat the Mac back into just laptops and maybe an iMac 24" or Mini. But would the Mac ecosystem survive on just that?
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
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Yep. I've made that point repeatedly in this thread.



10 nm won't be competitive enough. Especially with 3 nm coming from TSMC in 2022. How many years will Intel be stuck on 10 nm this time? Unless 7nm-ish is coming from Intel in 2022, they'll be left holding the bag again. Which I would guess is why Apple is abandoning them.

Intel 7nm 2021

That is probably going to end up rolling out "beta" / engineering samples and not max volume product. But 2022?

7nm is a completely different set of fabrication machines. (EUV). It doesn't "have to be" like 10nm at all in time.
Those machines don't fall out of the sky or get picked up at the local Fry's either. If didn't order them years ago not going to get them quickly.

Is Intel going to throw 7nm at the smallest, lowest power laptop processors first? Very probably not. Either FPGA or discrete GPU products probably are higher on the priority list than those. Partial "Chiplet" like solutions for Xeon SP probably next.

I think AMD vs Apple is the only interesting matchup, but I'd give Apple the edge for two reasons:
- I think Apple is worse than Intel at design, but better than AMD. That's not a dig at Apple as much as it's a compliment for Intel, Intel just has a lot of smart engineers always pushing the envelope. Intel is just stuck with production issues.
- Apple has preferred status with TSMC. That means they'll always have access to TSMC's most advanced fabrication lines before AMD. Apple will get 5 nm/3 nm/etc before AMD does.

An exclusive 6-9 month lock out isn't that much of big deal. Especially when AMD has bigger breadth in product line up. Apple has about no track record at all getting multiple products out in a year on a consistent basis.

A9X -- 2015
A10X -- 2017 ( ~ +2 years )
A12X -- 2018 ( ~ + 1 year )
A12Z -- 2020 ( warmed over A12X with a GPU 'core' lit up. This is the exact same die trotted out as something new. Intel 14nm+++ was at least some new design elements. )
A14X -- presumable 2020 ..maybe sliding into 2021 ( ~ +2 years )

(about 1.67 years. Or approximately waiting for Moore's law to make progress )

Apple has needed the process shrinks to move the 'X' line forward. AMD hasn't need a full shrink to move Zen forward at all. They have basically been on tick-tock like schedule since 2017. And don't appear to be missing beat for 2020-2021 either. Apple hasn't been as consistent as AMD here. ( the GPU record is more spotty, but in this space it is better track record. ). AMD doesn't need a process shrink to outcompete Apple at the desktop-workstation class product space. They are already doing it.

AMD need to improve as some crossing t's and dotting i's. ( some flakey BIOS rollout outs. the off/on socket compatibility , supportive OEM firmware/driver technical assistance, etc . ), but broad spectrum product delivery they have been doing.

If Apple's strategy on the Mac Pro ( iMac Pro ) is to go Rip van Winkle for 3-4 years at a time then that may not matter. However, right now matching track records it is pretty likely they are going to get smoked over time. AMD has access to more desktop and workstation customers than Apple has. Which probably means AMD will probably throw more consistent money at that space. Apple's volume is probably an order of magnitude smaller and probably won't match them in spend ( hence wait for a shrink cycle to do something).


Adding cores is a relatively easy thing to do in CPU design.

For relatively small numbers yes. Larger not so much if minimizing NUMA issues. And trying to balance increase in I/O to keep those cores feed on non "fits in cache" benchmarks. ( i.e. the Un-core work gets more complicated ).
 
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deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
....
Again, ARM does not design or build the CPUs Apple uses, the architecture is licenced from them. If Apple are going to the effort of designing a desktop CPU range, it will have performance as good or better than Intel (TBF, not that hard at the moment). They wouldn't bother otherwise. And why would there need to be a nail in the x86 coffin? Apple cannot lose here. If it's making its own chips because they're better/faster/cheaper, win.


Apple could license ( and incrementally tweak ) ARM N1 architecture design if they wanted. ARMv8.2 might be a bit different license than what Apple has. (unless Apple has some "all you can eat' architecture license. )


If Intel catches up and makes better/faster/cheaper, it switches back, win.

If Apple moves the whole line up over then it is probably a one way trip. If x86-64 macOS gets into even prepping for deprecated state, it is probably dead for good. If it doesn't work in the desktop space more than likely will just retreat into the laptop space. They'll just "over clock" some mobile version for some limited desktop models but the Mac Pro would probably just die off.

If Apple keeps the line up split for 2-3 years and doesn't get to that "let's quit x86-64" meeting on macOS direction then perhaps continue in split state. Similarly if switching to ARM causes a shrink of Mac market share then probably not coming back either. The "even cheaper" option is to just not come back and go to a subset of the Mac market they that do well. ( and look for growth as a company elsewhere. )


Performance claims are not unsupported. ARM designs have zero presence in the desktop market. So, just total dominance in the mobile market and high competitiveness in the supercomputer market to suggest it might work out OK, then....

Not quite zero (not big either but above zero). Technically, Rasperry Pi isn't a laptop. :)

And there is this "Franken-system".


It has an eMag, but in the Fall there should be a Ampere N1 implementation on a board someone might try to "stuff" in a box. They'll be some 64-80 core board that someone will call workstation just for those that just have high core count friendly workloads.

And if not a Ampere, someone will probably stuff a ThunderX board into a desk side box later also.
https://www.nextplatform.com/2019/12/10/looking-ahead-to-marvells-future-thunderx-processors/



But yes, generally no one has really tuned the N1 into something that is more workstation targeted ( not max possible slower cores and better base/boost clocks. ) The baseline N1 design is not tuned that way. ( it is tuned for more core count at lower power coupled to very fast Network backbone. i.e., a cloud edge node with lots of in/outbound traffic. )

N2 ( Zeus ) could be tweaked crank the clocks at higher power on 7nm+ https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/arm_holdings/neoverse

As the cloud footprint of N1 upticks then will start to see workstation show up that mirror the cloud instance so that can do development local and push an revised/incremented VM image out for production testing in the data center. It isn't the same workstation subset that the Mac Pro is focused on. For now, the Mac Pro is probably in a bigger subset space.
 
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At least four , probably five if not six. It is far more than just about tech CPU benchmark scores and up/down clocking. Each one of these is different die which would need its own validation and certification. It isn’t like it is 5 “moonshot” efforts, but it far more work that Apple has done for far lower unit volumes produced. The “un-cores” stuff matters.
Good post! And, I agree with possibly 4 but potentially less than that. Either way, it won’t be anything like the wide variety of solutions that Intel provides, mainly because that “wide variety” is a situation Intel created to maximize profit.

I start with the idea that the iPad Pro is benchmarking competitively against some of Intel’s higher end chips and that wasn’t even the goal... they were just progressively iterating iPad performance. And, in most cases, they’re just taking the same processor design of the iPhone and repurposing it with more graphic or compute cores. A12, A12x, A12z

In my mind, 2, 3, 4 and 5 are all the same processor/processor iteration like the A and Ax versions. If Apple’s willing to put a 12 core processor in a form factor that usually as 2-4 cores, that says to me that what was “appropriate” in the past due to Intel’s reluctance to compress their i3 through i9 stack may be going out the window. They could have 12 cores, top to bottom for the entire line. And, there’s nothing at the CPU level that would preclude using Apple’s internal or AMD’s discrete graphics chips, I/O bandwidth, etc. as those are all chipset level choices. And don’t forget, another benefit is not having to waste precious motherboard space on Intel’s graphics options.

That leaves the iMac Pro and Mac Pro. And, really, the sales of both are so low and the differences between them add up to so much MORE than just CPU that there‘d be no reason NOT to use the same architecture for both. I’m curious if they would remove the graphics... for Intel it’s actually a separate chip in the package, isn’t it?. For Apple, currently, it’s inside the processor.

Now, if Apple wanted to, they could certainly add more CPU’s into the mix. However, each additional CPU they have is an additional CPU they have to design and maintain. For Intel, it’s a money making opportunity. For Apple, it’s a pain. That’s one reason why the difference between a given generation of iPhones is features, not CPU’s. If Apple uses the same model for Macs, it could mean an interesting change to how Apple markets their systems.

If Apple is going to toss aside Intel and AMD then they have to out compete both of them. Outside of the lightest of light laptops they have tons of unproven work to do. Once plugged into a wall for power... Apple is bring what to the table?
It runs macOS, Final Cut Pro X and Logic Pro X and other macOS apps. That’s really all any Mac has to do.
Anything Apple does doesn’t have to be competitive against a generic AMD or Intel system, it just needs to run macOS better than the current comparable Intel Mac versions. If Final Cut Pro runs so fast that you can get twice the work done in the same time, that’s what will matter more than what Intel and AMD are doing.

If "iOS is all that matters" is the future then they should just do an 'iBook' or iPadBook and put iPad OS inside clamshell. ( basically an always attached keyboard versus the $300 external one.). Likewise Apple could retreat the Mac back into just laptops and maybe an iMac 24" or Mini. But would the Mac ecosystem survive on just that?
The Mac ecosystem is really just an extension of the iOS ecosystem at this point (AppleTV+, Apple Music, iCloud, etc.). What you mention above would be a path to take if macOS were pushed to be a developer only OS, which isn’t out of the question. However, if we see FCPX, LPX and Xcode running on iPad OS (and I mean well, not just a token effort), that signals a future without macOS at all.
 
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