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Certificate of Excellence

macrumors 6502a
Feb 9, 2021
945
1,458
Well, that's it then. The last PowerMac that was officially dedicated to a purpose is now retired. Pulled the drives and put it out in the garage to await a return to service for some other day.

The PowerPC era for me, in with a 'meh' in 2001 and out with a unceremonious shutdown/removal in 2024. In between I had a lot of great years and great Macs. I still have them, they are just not being put to a purpose requiring them being on all the time now.

Good run…

Mine dont really play a role nowadays either. 95% is either my Intel macs or my m series. I always have one running but I probably sit down at it once or twice a week if that - mostly to mess with linux. I still really enjoy building up/ kitting out my PMG4s but trying to use them nowadays with the intel and M series stuff I have, is just time I need to reclaim for other things.
 
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m1maverick

macrumors 65816
Nov 22, 2020
1,368
1,267
Panther was never flashy like Tiger was, but aside from a few later versions it is one of my favorites simply because it was stable and consistent. When I worked for a newspaper, I got a lot of jobs out on that OS. It even functioned when damaged. In the first year of having a G5 (which came with Panther) a ram stick died. Because there was disk access at the time I guess, the ram stick going out damaged the filesystem 'B' tree. The 'B' tree is the backup to the 'A' tree and both trees tell the OS what files are where. It wasn't until a few weeks later that I could wipe the drive. reinstall apps and move on. But in the meantime, Panther handled everything just fine. I guess it amazed me so much that I am still mentioning it to this day.
The filesystem b-tree is a type of data structure and is not a backup of an a-tree. b-tree stands for "balanced tree" and provides for an efficient way to access data sorted within.
 

eyoungren

macrumors Penryn
Aug 31, 2011
29,603
28,365
The filesystem b-tree is a type of data structure and is not a backup of an a-tree. b-tree stands for "balanced tree" and provides for an efficient way to access data sorted within.
Thank you for the correction.

It was however, difficult to work with the B tree being corrupted. There were certain apps that I could not open without crashing the system and other apps that I did not use specific features with because they would also crash the system. At the time, repairing the B tree was not something that my version of DiskWarrior could do and I was forced to reinstall the OS and all my apps.
 

m1maverick

macrumors 65816
Nov 22, 2020
1,368
1,267
Thank you for the correction.

It was however, difficult to work with the B tree being corrupted. There were certain apps that I could not open without crashing the system and other apps that I did not use specific features with because they would also crash the system. At the time, repairing the B tree was not something that my version of DiskWarrior could do and I was forced to reinstall the OS and all my apps.
Very much so as it is a key filesystem structure. I am not surprised that you had trouble with your system once it was corrupted.
 

davisdelo

macrumors regular
Jul 7, 2019
126
170
Fort Worth, TX
Not sure what spawned my interest, but I decided to jot down some of the performance metrics from Mactracker (Geekbench 2 based). I was curious as to when all of Apple's devices finally reached parity with the Late 2005 G5s. Obviously there is a lot more to performance than the GB2 number, but it's still a telling metric. I think it shows that PowerPC could have been supported a lot longer than it was. The most interesting number to me here is the Late 2010 MacBook Air that had official support through 10.13 I think (getting it's last official update in 11/2020). It's performance score happens to be almost the exact same GB2 score as my dual-core 2.3 G5. I sure would have loved for Apple to support us a bit longer. Anyways, here's a few interesting devices and their scores:

Power Mac G5 (Late 2005): 1818 - 3284
iMac (Late 2006): 2856 - 3048
Mac Mini (Early 2009): 2782 - 3008
Macbook Pro (Mid/Late 2007): 2882 - 3326
Macbook (Mid 2010): 3375
Macbook Air (Late 2010): 2026 - 2280
iPad Air: 2379
iPad Mini 3: 2214
iPhone 5s: 2233
 

lm2

macrumors member
Nov 11, 2023
33
11
Even though PowerPC Macs are useless and you can't use them in 2020 (heh), some of us do anyway, so I figured we should have a thread to post anything we've done with a PPC computer today. Inspired by the various PowerPC Challenge threads, but more for those of us who use them continuously year round, even if not always exclusively.

lot of offline activity/work, such as :
libreoffice
multimedia/vlc
pdf viewing
and that's already a big occupation..

for me those oldies computers are a strong part in sort of "offline" and work-focused activity, where you damn just can't really enjoy "online services", from vod to others javascript-dependent, and goooosh it saves time..


now im trying to get xmpp and sip working, to communicate without browser, even with ssl hanshake failure on adium..
 

swamprock

macrumors 65816
Aug 2, 2015
1,261
1,837
Michigan
I have a few imacg4s and they all kind of sit around staring back at me like cats on a shelf - as an homage to that gen of Mac just like my g3s do for their generation. My home office is salt and peppered with old macs LOL but remind me of trips to Compusa and other tech retailers of the era where I’d see their displays & wishing I could afford one. The allure was palpable - specifically the Titanium PB … oh boy the first time I saw one of those and I was in love.

FWIW, my iMac g3s run classic macOS 8, Panther and Tiger while my iMac g4s run Tiger and leopard.

I really love the neck. I wish Apple had included a redesign of it in their newest M series release. Maybe in the future

:)

Yeah... sigh. I've got two 1.25ghz 17" iMacs that I'm killing myself trying to find uses for. If only they ran OS 9...
 
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lm2

macrumors member
Nov 11, 2023
33
11
Not too worried about running old software these days.

problem is not "running old software"
problem is people telling you "wow, why do you run old hard/software instead of doing your citizen duty, as using only recent stuff isntead of getting back to the past?"
lot of people, especially internet-data-addicted, reproach to not internet-addicted, to being too much offline or disconnected.

today, "offline" nerds or people are for the "common society" what "unsociable" are for social people.. two kind of people whom cannot understand the opposite side.
im even not laughing..
 
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Slix

macrumors 68000
Mar 24, 2010
1,586
2,357
Today I worked on getting some more NetInstall images set up for my Mac OS X Server. I managed to get a NetInstall image of 10.9 ready (minus updates), and 10.4 (with updates), using an iMac G3 as the Tiger image basis. I haven't tested the 10.4 one to know if it installs all the updates properly yet, but I also threw in iWork 09 and iLife 09 .dmgs, so hopefully that all works nicely.
 

davisdelo

macrumors regular
Jul 7, 2019
126
170
Fort Worth, TX
I've been playing with the new emulators on iOS that are now available. This is all captured via a ROKU hooked up to my G5's AJA SDI card. The specs are QT's default 'Better (H.264)' 320x240 default. Here's a capture of an iPhone 14 Pro emulating a PSP over AirPlay, it's pretty cool actually. Forgive my toddlers video game skills, lol, I gave him a Backbone but it didn't make much of a difference for him.


 

dandeco

macrumors 65816
Dec 5, 2008
1,248
1,048
Brockton, MA
It was a couple of days ago, but I installed a second optical drive in my PowerMac G4 MDD!
A71026CF-A537-4EB8-9AB0-E239767C6EF5_1_105_c.jpeg

I moved the original stock Combo Drive to the bottom bay and put a SuperDrive I pulled from a QuickSilver G4 being recycled into the top bay. It's a DVD-R/CD-RW model, but it should be adequate enough for me.

0B6461AB-6F6E-4A0C-B641-6FB046417F5E_1_105_c.jpeg

The System Profiler in Mac OS 9 showing the SuperDrive ready to go!

1E5513C3-A79F-4C90-8847-ED7A2FB68689_1_201_a.jpeg

Installing iDVD onto the Mac OS X Tiger system!
 

Rairii

macrumors member
Feb 22, 2024
74
167
KeBugCheckEx
First milestone achieved on Lombard. Unlike on the later uni-north hardware: no emulation, no tricks, this is in little endian mode!!! Obviously it can't boot further until I write a HAL, but the existing drivers I wrote for later hardware (for IDE and video by raw framebuffer) should work fine.

No tricks means: Open Firmware API is unusable after the endianness switch, so ARC firmware has to contain all the drivers. PMU driver came from my existing HAL, then Cuda support was added (so I could run tests under my dingusppc tree which has little endian support very hastily hacked in).

A USB driver is in place in the ARC firmware, which came from coreboot libpayload by way of openbios, but it currently doesn't work, transfers never complete. I'm not sure if the USB controller has issues with Grackle's little endian mode with regards to DMAing to and from main memory, or if it's just something else.

Not sure what's going on with the colours, probably some LCD register I don't set as the colours look slightly better if I boot into OSX single user, reboot and then boot into the ARC firmware from OF.

(for those who aren't sure, this is NT4 setupldr, asking the user to select a HAL to load)

1716828152646.jpeg
 

repairedCheese

macrumors 6502a
Jan 13, 2020
632
835
First milestone achieved on Lombard. Unlike on the later uni-north hardware: no emulation, no tricks, this is in little endian mode!!! Obviously it can't boot further until I write a HAL, but the existing drivers I wrote for later hardware (for IDE and video by raw framebuffer) should work fine.

No tricks means: Open Firmware API is unusable after the endianness switch, so ARC firmware has to contain all the drivers. PMU driver came from my existing HAL, then Cuda support was added (so I could run tests under my dingusppc tree which has little endian support very hastily hacked in).

A USB driver is in place in the ARC firmware, which came from coreboot libpayload by way of openbios, but it currently doesn't work, transfers never complete. I'm not sure if the USB controller has issues with Grackle's little endian mode with regards to DMAing to and from main memory, or if it's just something else.

Not sure what's going on with the colours, probably some LCD register I don't set as the colours look slightly better if I boot into OSX single user, reboot and then boot into the ARC firmware from OF.

(for those who aren't sure, this is NT4 setupldr, asking the user to select a HAL to load)

View attachment 2382821 Hold on, are you telling me installing Windows on a PPC Mac natively may actually be possible after all these years? Yes, it's NT4, and yes, it has almost no app support, but it was always the neat trick that seemed impossible.
 

Rairii

macrumors member
Feb 22, 2024
74
167
KeBugCheckEx
Hold on, are you telling me installing Windows on a PPC Mac natively may actually be possible after all these years?
I started this with an iBook G3 Snow, building on the work I did to get NT running on the Wii. That works by basically bringing in an emulator (by hooking an exception handler) to do the endianness swapping, and ensuring all code gets patched on load to call into it if needed. It still doesn't correctly install, things break, but it does run further than one would expect (kernel needs to be patched in several places to handle big endian mode, but it works!)

But the earlier grackle+paddington systems can actually switch endianness (although something in Apple's Open Firmware implementation breaks, at least on Lombard), so none of that is needed.

Technically I could probably get away with switching MSR_LE on later uni-north systems too, I'd just need to handle that situation in drivers. (Basically, the way MSR_LE itself works is by XORing the low bits of the address for different kinds of accesses, such that given a little-endian PPC executable loaded into memory, blindly doing endianness swapping on it treating it as 64-bit data, puts everything in the correct place to run with MSR_LE on. Grackle's little endian mode implementation isn't even a full implementation (like some other memory controllers do), it just ensures a correct view of memory over the PCI bus, so that could be implemented in software if needed.)

Yes, it's NT4, and yes, it has almost no app support

Almost no app support?!

A version of the insignia softwindows emulator for PPC NT got dumped recently (with Motorola branding). Looking at it, it looks like a direct port, and the wx86 environment runs on top of it (so x86 applications can run). It emulates a 486, I want to see the performance there.

And of course, there's some PPC NT native applications. Excel for PPC NT got dumped some time ago, but Word is still undumped.

(And it has ntvdm support, through a version of insignia's emulator that emulates a 286. So it can run some DOS/Win16 applications too, which is more than modern NT can do out of the box.)

Maybe after I've done all the bare metal stuff I'll mess around with a port to OSX Blue Box, just so Red Box finally becomes a thing. (and hey, maybe I can learn some more stuff about OSX internals along the way).

the neat trick that seemed impossible
I personally want to know how far Apple themselves got getting PPC NT to run. There's some documentation from Apple themselves that refers to doing that; not just internal leaked documentation (the PMG3B&W bootrom ERS, which mentions PCI devices are moved to physical memory starting from 0x8080_0000 "to boot NT, just in case", implying that PPC NT was the final plan if everything else failed, but "Designing PCI Cards and Drivers for Power Macintosh Computers" mentions that "PCI-based Power Macintosh computers support little-endian addressing for several reasons [...] so that they can run operating systems (such as Windows NT) that require the underlying hardware to operate as if it were little-endian". This passage is in the February 1996 edition but was not removed from the March 1999 edition that adds a chapter about New World - given that the 1996 edition predates Gossamer entirely, it makes me wonder if (for example) Hammerhead has an unknown register bit that does some form of endianness swapping.

And if anyone wants to know "why 0x8080_0000"? NT and its bootloaders expects virtual address 0x8000_0000 to be mapped to physical address zero. veneer.exe maps exactly 8MB from start of memory at 0x8000_0000, which will fail if a PCI device is mapped there given Open Firmware's 1:1 physical->virtual mappings. Why exactly 8MB? Because PPC NT kernel init originally hardcoded a BAT mapping for exactly 8MB. This was fixed in NT 4 but means one has to take this into account and deal with it if loading something earlier for whatever reason.
 

Doq

macrumors 6502a
Dec 8, 2019
533
798
The Lab DX
I have painfully installed FreeBSD 14.0 to Implacable.

X will not work at all without a GPU swap as the 7800 GT it came with won't work out the box, and of course drivers are only for Intel. I tried with a second AMD card (having both because the AMD card is a PC card and thus no OF) and got a framebuffer error (probably because X still tries to use the NVidia card despite me explicitly telling it not to).

More investigation is required.... or more money.
 

repairedCheese

macrumors 6502a
Jan 13, 2020
632
835
Spent the day rebuilding my Mac OS Install compact flash card, mainly to fix Tiger on my MDD, but I used my G5 to do it. Didn't get the OS 9 installed onto the card right, not that I'm sure the MDD can actually boot from an iso turned compact flash partition, but I may need to reformat and restore the whole thing again.

But at least I got the MDD quadruple booting properly again. Now if only I could easily hook them up to the the internet in my new place, updates would be a lot easier, but that's a problem for another day.
 

originaldotexe

macrumors 6502
Jun 12, 2020
254
430
Kentucky
(for those who aren't sure, this is NT4 setupldr, asking the user to select a HAL to load)
Very cool. I doubt there are many drivers, but they could probably be ported with less effort than you'd think. I wonder if those old 90s drivers would have decent symbols.
Technically I could probably get away with switching MSR_LE on later uni-north systems too, I'd just need to handle that situation in drivers. (Basically, the way MSR_LE itself works is by XORing the low bits of the address for different kinds of accesses, such that given a little-endian PPC executable loaded into memory, blindly doing endianness swapping on it treating it as 64-bit data, puts everything in the correct place to run with MSR_LE on. Grackle's little endian mode implementation isn't even a full implementation (like some other memory controllers do), it just ensures a correct view of memory over the PCI bus, so that could be implemented in software if needed.)
Do you think that would work on the G5? People had theorized about putting it into LE mode for some time, but doing it in OF alone would just brick the machine. If it could get into LE mode, the G5 could actually run modern browsers and software just like an x86-64 PC or ARM in Linux/BSD. The endianness was always an issue since most software isn't really tested on BE machines as they haven't really been a thing in the mainstream for a long time.

I'm also interested to see how all of this works, I have some Windows internals experience, but this seems to be more about the hardware and firmware instead. I took a look at your GitHub but I don't see DingusPPC on there.
 

Rairii

macrumors member
Feb 22, 2024
74
167
KeBugCheckEx
Very cool. I doubt there are many drivers, but they could probably be ported with less effort than you'd think. I wonder if those old 90s drivers would have decent symbols.

Do you think that would work on the G5? People had theorized about putting it into LE mode for some time, but doing it in OF alone would just brick the machine. If it could get into LE mode, the G5 could actually run modern browsers and software just like an x86-64 PC or ARM in Linux/BSD. The endianness was always an issue since most software isn't really tested on BE machines as they haven't really been a thing in the mainstream for a long time.

I'm also interested to see how all of this works, I have some Windows internals experience, but this seems to be more about the hardware and firmware instead. I took a look at your GitHub but I don't see DingusPPC on there.
G5 doesn't have MSR_LE at all, hence why PPC VPC for OSX had to add a kext to work around that. That said, faking it might work (although arguably you'd need a custom compiler for that, and to recompile everything from source! it's been done before, with some company doing a """big endian""" OS on x86 or amd64 that was just faking it in the compiler). I of course "fake it" with NT4 on uninorth systems (and on the Wii), but that requires emulation overhead and kernel patches, and there are still lots of things that are broken right now (I'm amazed it runs as well as it does!).

I haven't released my dingusppc tree anywhere, the way I implemented little endian support there broke other things and I have no idea why, I only care about a debugging environment for NT4 on new world grackle/paddington.
 

Certificate of Excellence

macrumors 6502a
Feb 9, 2021
945
1,458
.... I still really enjoy building up/ kitting out my PMG4s but trying to use them nowadays with the intel and M series stuff I have, <b>is just time I need to reclaim for other things</b>.
Rereading this post I may have sounded like I have sat aside my PPC macs for early Intel and Apple silicon and while this is partly true, I still enjoy PowerPC thoroughly, especially my Quicksilver. today, I revisited which green adapter worked in my PowerPC macs. Its common knowledge that the Startech red adapters always work which is great advice and true but folks including myself often stumble on the green ones. As an option, I have a number of green pata/sata adapters labeled RXD-629A7-7 that currently are drop in solutions for and driving a sata spinner in a bondi imacg3 & another driving a Netac SSD in my Quicksilver Powermacg4. These were purchased probably 10 years ago on ebay and are MIC - I think at the time they were like two for $10 USD.
FB7F9EA6-DBC0-4AC1-8DB9-4333C74B91FD.jpeg

That and it is always great to put my Quicksilver back in rotation. Posted on a 2001 Powermac g4 Quicksilver :apple:
 
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davisdelo

macrumors regular
Jul 7, 2019
126
170
Fort Worth, TX
I found out that the 'hot spot' internet tethering on my iPhone works over USB with my G5. The internet connection isn't very fast (about 2-3 Mb/s), but the local transfers are super fast with something like VLC (about 7-10 MB/s). My normal usb wireless dongle gets about 10 Mb/s to the internet and 3 MB/s to the iPhone.

Edit: I just copied over 46 video files totaling 3.77 GB in one single batch via VLC, took 410.5 seconds.
 
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