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bunnspecial

macrumors G3
Original poster
May 3, 2014
8,376
6,511
Kentucky
I've been meaning to make this post for a while, but finally got around to it. This is intended to address a personal pet peeve.

A word that gets thrown around a lot in photography is "Bokeh". It's a word that's often used to simply refer to a photo with shallow depth of field where the subject is in focus and the background is out of focus.

That's actually not a correct use, however. Bokeh is derived from a Japanese word that means "blur", however it is a term that refers to what the out of focus area looks like.

Bokeh is a characteristic of a particular lens, and there are a lot of very subjective terms that get thrown around like "creamy" or "smooth" or "busy" to describe it.

In general, though, the smoother the rendering of things like points of light in the background, the more aesthetically pleasing the bokeh is often considered to be. There are a few general rules that may give you some idea of what makes for "good" or "bad" bokeh, although this is by no means absolute. Subjectively "good" bokeh is often the result of residual uncorrected abberation in a lens(particularly spherical abberation). Here are a few I can think of:

1. Generally, the larger the aperture, the more potential a lens has to produce pleasing OOF areas

2. Telephoto lenses tend to universally be good, often for their relatively simple optical design

3. Along with that, often times simple lenses are good for good bokeh, although again this isn't hard and fast.

4. Going with my point about uncorrected spherical abberation, lenses that use things like aspherical elements(which are designed to correct speherical abberation in large aperture lenses) can end up with busier bokeh.

I took several photos this afternoon with varying lenses with different properties to try and illustrate this. Since it was cold outside today, you get to see a boring photo of Kentucky's finest soft drink, Ale-8-1, sitting on the windowsill with my back yard in the background.

In any case, here's a sort of classic example. This is a manual focus Nikon 105mm f/2.5 lens, a staple of the line-up for years. As a minor point, there are two different optical formulas for this lens. This is the older formula, which is in a "chrome nose" body-I slightly prefer its rendering, although in these examples I couldn't see a difference so you're only getting one
105 chrome.jpg


With that said, there are areas where it could be called a bit "busy" so let's go to something different that might render a bit smoother-this is my 70-200mm f/2.8 AF-S VR, a fairly complicated lens but one that still retains really smooth bokeh thanks to its large aperture and long focal length. Notice how the background essentially melts into just a smooth, even rendering of the grass and a very blury transition to the shed outback.

70-200.jpg


To go the other way, though, let's look at a couple of other modern f/2.8 zooms-the 24-70mm f/2.8 AF-S, and the 14-24mm f/2.8. Often, wide angle lenses in particular are not as pleasing

24-70.jpg
14-24.jpg


Even wider primes aren't immune to "busier" bokeh. Here is another Nikon legend, the 35mm AI-s f/1.4. This lens has a large aperture and loads of uncorrected spherical abberation, but it's still not particularly great. I suspect that some of Nikon's advanced tricks-in particular the floating element("close range correction") play into that somewhat.

Although the background is nicely out of focus, the bokeh of this lens has one fatal flaw. Notice that OOF highlights are rendered as bright "rings"-often the opposite is desired where the light has a more Gaussian type distribution toward the center of the disk. This can make the bokeh of this lens somewhat distracting.
35.jpg


I don't have any truly terrible lenses easily accessible. One of the worst designs for this is the reflex(or mirror) lens, which use to be common because it's a cheap way to get a really light and small telephoto(500mm is common) but they tend to render points of light as "donuts."

I'll wrap this up though with an example of a lens that has what some might call distracting but I call interesting Bokeh. This is a Lensbaby Twist 60, which uses one of the oldest computed(rather than trial and error) lens formulas called the Petzval. When these lenses first came on the market in the ~1890s, they had some of the best center sharpness around, but not a particularly flat field. What's more of note, though, is that they tend to render what's often called "Swirly" bokeh-I think you can see it clearly in this photo. This is something of a signature of Petzval lenses(although I've also seen it in a few other more advanced formulas, like the Auto-NIKKOR-S 5,8cm f/1.4) although there are other designs with their own signature bokeh.

petzval.jpg
 
I don't have the twist, but I do really love what it did to your last photo. I will try to add more to this thread next week, but we are gearing up to go away for the holiday, but this is a great read and thanks for putting it together. ?
 
I know I'm guilty of casually, carelessly misusing the word "bokeh," and have been called on it more than once.... When I buy lenses one thing which I do take into consideration is what kind of ...ahem, "out-of-focus background blur" it will have, as some lenses are particularly cherished for their special rendering of this while others are not so much so. I'm a big fan of the "smooth, creamy" look. Ideally, a good background blur or bokeh, whatever you want to call it, should not call attention to itself. That is why "onion rings" and "catseye" shapes seen in some images are not considered desirable. IMHO gimmicky devices such as that Lensbaby "Twist" do the primary subject no favors at all. The background should fade quietly and discreetly into the background and the viewer should be focused on the subject, whatever that may happen to be: a person, an animal, a flower, etc.
 
IMHO gimmicky devices such as that Lensbaby "Twist" do the primary subject no favors at all.

Perhaps you missed the part where the twist is based off the Petzval design. The Petzval lens was the first portrait lens ever, designed in 1840 and produced by Voigtlander. That hardly seems like a gimmick to me. You don't have to like Lensbaby, but they base nearly all their designs on historical lenses.

A simple dislike is fine, but labeling historical designs as gimmicky just shows ignorance.
 
One aspect that helps telephoto lenses achieve good background separation is the extremely shallow DOF they can provide. For example, for a subject 20 feet away, my PL100-400 at 400mm f/6.3 has a DOF of less than 2”. Take that same 400mm f/6.3 and now move the subject to 4 feet away, and the DOF is 0.05 inches. If your subject has a decent amount of separation from the background, the shallow DOF can do the rest. Shorter focal length lenses have to count on wide apertures to do something similar.
 
Perhaps you missed the part where the twist is based off the Petzval design. The Petzval lens was the first portrait lens ever, designed in 1840 and produced by Voigtlander. That hardly seems like a gimmick to me. You don't have to like Lensbaby, but they base nearly all their designs on historical lenses.

A simple dislike is fine, but labeling historical designs as gimmicky just shows ignorance.
To clarify: IMHO Lensbaby devices are what I referred to as "gimmicky." Yes, I am familiar with the Petzval lens and concept, and am certainly familiar with Voigtlander, as I have three of their lenses.
 
To clarify: IMHO Lensbaby devices are what I referred to as "gimmicky." Yes, I am familiar with the Petzval lens and concept, and am certainly familiar with Voigtlander, as I have three of their lenses.
Like them or leave them, Lensbaby is not a set of "devices." (Perhaps the Omni system could be considered so by some.) They are stand alone lenses. How is a 170 year old lens design, first manufactured by Voigtlander gimmicky?
 
Thanks for taking the time and effort for this post!! And all this time I thought bokeh was just a bunch of flowers ........:rolleyes:

Yeah me too. All along I thought it was what teenagers shouted at the toilet bowl after too heavy a night on the town….

Seriously though, what a great post. Fantastic piece of work. Thank you for writing it @bunnspecial

Oh and if you ever come across someone from Newcastle or Sunderland in England, trust me and get them to say Bokeh out loud….. you can thank me later for the laugh….
 
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Like them or leave them, Lensbaby is not a set of "devices." (Perhaps the Omni system could be considered so by some.) They are stand alone lenses. How is a 170 year old lens design, first manufactured by Voigtlander gimmicky?

In any threads discussing the Lensbaby devices or lenses you really need to post the disclaimer that you are a "Lensbaby Ambassador," for whatever that's worth.... Just saying.
 
In any threads discussing the Lensbaby devices or lenses you really need to post the disclaimer that you are a "Lensbaby Ambassador," for whatever that's worth.... Just saying.
no, actually i shouldn’t because that would be self promotion.

you also didn’t explain how a 170 year old lens design is gimmicky. gimmicky is not the same as dislike.
 
The 170-year-old Petzval lens design isn't gimmicky, but IMHO the Lensbaby devices are. The reason I use the word "devices," is that it encompasses more than just lenses. When Lensbaby started out they did not offer actual lenses the way they do now and I believe they still offer some of those as well as lenses in their lineup. Whatever.

Actually, only a couple of the Lensbaby devices are truly based on the Petzval design; their other products are trying to provide the consumer market with inexpensive means of aiming at achieving the same sort of effects that a skilled photographer can obtain with high quality macro and fast lenses.
 
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but actually you did call the image posted by @bunnspecial image gimmicky, which he did use with the petzval lens. and to be honest it is pretty rude to be so dismissive of someone who took the time to write this post. i would be appalled if my children said something similar.

and just because lensbaby started out making something different doesn’t mean they can’t evolve. should i call your cameras “devices” because sony started off as an audio company? that would be ridiculous.

again, just because you don’t like them doesn’t make them gimmicky. your closed mindedness is getting out of hand.
 
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Sorry, Molly, but your defensiveness is a bit much.....Wow! The Lensbaby people must be thrilled. Seriously, just let it go, OK? The bottom line here is that I don't like the Lensbaby products and that is my prerogative. Live with it.
You have always seemed to have pretty strong negative reactions to very specific things that I’ve never quite understood :), for example the FTZ or Lensbaby. As you say, it is definitely your prerogative for sure. To me, all of these things that we create with are simply tools and not worth the energy it takes to create negative space around them, I shouldn’t think.

I definitely get you might be tired of marketing of products, but that’s the name of the game. If you view Sony from outside of their ecosystem, their marketing and YouTube fanbois get very, very tedious, for example. If I hear one more thing about their Eye AF, I‘m going to go jump from the nearest tall building. I am sure Nikon, Canon or Fuji marketing can seem equally as tedious to others. Yet all of this marketing is effective, so go figure. The products from these manufacturers are all high quality and we can go create nice images from these tools, just like you, MacNut and Katbel do from your excellent Sony products and Molly does from her Nikons and Lensbaby equipment. Or Darmok, OldMacsForMe do from their excellent equipment or…you get the picture. I’ve never understood hating plastic, metal and glass :D.
 
Sorry, Molly, but your defensiveness is a bit much.....Wow! The Lensbaby people must be thrilled. Seriously, just let it go, OK? The bottom line here is that I don't like the Lensbaby products and that is my prerogative. Live with it.
you bring up the ambassador thing way more than i do. i mentioned it once when i was accepted and never again. i am not marketing to anyone as that goes against the rules at MR and i have never posted a link to my code or anything else. i use their products and that’s the extent of my role that anyone here sees. it’s not marketing to list gear used in the potd. it’s actually preferred based on the first post of the thread.

my point is that bunnspecial took at lot of time to educate people and shoot sample images for a concept he wanted to discuss. you latched on to his last image and essentially said it was crap, which was not at all the point of his exercise. if he had a similar image and said he used a vintage lens you would never have batted an eye.

and yes, as r.harris says, it’s glass, plastic, and metal, and in the right hands they all create magic. let’s all have a little magic on thanksgiving.
 
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A couple of added examples that I dug out this weekend...

First, an AI-P Nikkor 45mm f/2.8. This is a weird little lens that you probably don't have any reason to buy unless you're a Nikon nerd like I am. It's a Tessar design lens(4 elements, 3 groups) and is quite compact-I think the smallest SLR lens Nikon has made.

A bit of history on this one-back in the 60s Nikon made a Tessar type lens with the full alphabet soup name of GN Auto-NIKKOR 45mm f=2.8. It was one of the least expensive lenses they sold, and it was incredibly small. A Nikkormat with a 45mm GN is nearly pocketable. One of the interesting things about this lens, though, was related to the "GN" feature indicated in the name.

Back in the dark old days, camera flash was done using something called guide numbers. The guide number is roughly related to flash output, and is arrived at by multiplying distance from the flash to the subject by the f/number needed for correct exposure. As an example, for a flash with an ASA guide number of 110ft, a subject 10 feet away would need an exposure of f/11. That's overly simplified, and I started to type and delete some information about GNs related to flashbulbs as it can get SUPER complicated depending on the bulb type, shutter speed, and sync timing of the camera, but it's there.

In any case, the 45mm has GN scale on the side, and a little tab that you push in so that it points to your GN for your flash. As you rotate the focus ring, the aperture scale moves to the correct value for the distance and GN. Because of that, the focus ring also turns the opposite direction of any other Nikon MF lens. It's just a fascinating little mechanical computer to me.

All of that aside, I do have a 45mm GN, but also have a silly little lens Nikon introduced with the FM3A in 2002(?) and made to 2006. It's the same optical formula as the old GN lens, although has the benefit of modern multicoating. The 4/3 design(only 4 internal glass-air surfaces) combined with advanced coating makes it potentially one of the highest contrast lenses Nikon has made. The "AI-P" in the name refers to a rather interesting feature that I think Nikon only used on maybe 2 other lenses. Although this is a manual focus lens, it has a CPU that identifies the focal length and maximum aperture to the camera. This allows it to operate in all 4 modes with matrix metering on every camera up until the EE servo tab was deleted on low end DSLRs, as well as offer full compatibility with every AI camera. The only legacy compatibility issue is that a metering fork can not physically be installed on the aperture ring, so it can't meter with non-AI cameras.

Oh, also, new it was stupidly expensive for what it is, and it remains that way on the secondary market. And yes, I had to have one...

All of that aside, this lens gives what I'd call "neutral" bokeh
35-3.jpg


The second is another classic, the 55mm f/1.2 Auto-Nikkor. These lenses are big, heavy, and actually not all that useable at f/1.2.

Still, though, as a normal spherical lens it gives an interesting touch to the bokeh that I've seen on other old, very fast spherical lenses. Specifically the highlights tend to be oval or otherwise asymetric blobs, and the illumination can concentrate toward one end of them. I used to see this on my 58mm f/1.2 Canon FL lens, and the example photos I've seen of the Canon 50mm f/.95 show this also.

Adding an aspheric element to the formula of an ultrafast lens both improves the field flatness(making the lens a lot more useable wide open, which is why you buy a fast lens like this anyway) and also tends to make the bokeh a bit more neutral.

35-2.jpg
 
@bunnspecial what is the definition of "neutral" bokeh? like "normal" as in not something like the twist or a helios? or something different all together?
 
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