What Is Holding The Mac Back!!!

[luigi.lauro]

So for the first time apple puts actually a GTX mobile card into a laptop with a thermal design finally able to game everything at ultra 1080p and you complain?

You could have said that in the past, but not now, the 650M GT in the rMBP is actually better than the 660M GTX in gaming laptops such as Asus G55/G75 or even in Alienware m14X or similar thanks to the much increased core/memory clocks and GDDR5... while keeping a form factor and weight which is a FRACTION of those laptops.

Heck, if you wanna go bootcamp + overclocking way, you can even go much higher, and I'm talking about 3300 in 3dMark11. Find me a laptop with even remotely the specifications and form factors of the rMBP that achieves 3300 3dMark11...

The only way you can go higher than that performance-wise on laptop is by completing destroying the machine portability and battery life, I'm talking about 12 lbs laptops with 1.5 hours battery life here!!!!

In the past I've been complaining that the GPUs in MBP were weak (and they were) and were limited by the thermal design (and they were).

For the first time this is not true anymore since:

1) the rMBP do not throttle at all, both GPU and CPU wise, even after torture tests of 30+ minutes it still is within 5% performance loss, while older MBPs used to throttle down and lose 20-30% of GPU power after just a few minutes.

2) The performance of the 650M GT overclocked already in stock by apple to more than 660M GTX levels (900/1254) is more than enough for 1080p gaming @ ultra for most recent games (Civ5, D3, Skyrim, etc...), and for some of them you can even go as high as native res.

For me it's the perfect balance between power and portability and honestly pretty awesome achievement by itself, given the rMBP size & weight.

If you want more, you have to go for 'monster laptops' such as alienware m18x or similar.

 

[chilly willy]

Good thread.

While I agree a desktop gaming rig will far outstrip any gaming laptop, I think criticism of folks wanting to game on a laptop a tad harsh. I'd say that this demographic certainly includes some folks with more money than sense, but also folks who need/want portability. I for one hate being stuck to a desk to play a game (and annoys the wife ) If you wanna run BF3 or the latest shooter at ultimate settings, no, asking that of a true mobile computer is daft.

All this said, I think folks are wise to remember that gaming has in the past driven a lot of tech progress. Laptops now scream compared to their predecessors only 5 years ago....Apple is using laptop GPUs in the iMacs, and the recent mobile GPUs work darn well. The rMBP is a case in point - though the retina aspect still leaves me wary based on msg boards on MR.

So let folks demand a 13" MBA run BF3 on ultimate settings. Might be absurd, might never happen, but it's poking at the boundaries and that's good to me for everyone, not just gamers.

 

[rabidz7]

Mac pro

Get a mac pro, upgrade the video card to Nvidia ge force 690, get more ran. Problem solved.

 

[doh123]

Get a mac pro, upgrade the video card to Nvidia ge force 690, get more ran. Problem solved.

Except the problem of the vanishing bank account

 

[MRU]

Except the problem of the vanishing bank account

And the geforce 690 not being 'officially supported' unless you tinker and have an external power supply and a companion card etc. etc.

 

[edddeduck]

And the geforce 690 not being 'officially supported' unless you tinker and have an external power supply and a companion card etc. etc.

*cough* you will be amazed at what the official CUDA drivers support *cough*

Edwin

 

[unwinded]

Good thread.

While I agree a desktop gaming rig will far outstrip any gaming laptop, I think criticism of folks wanting to game on a laptop a tad harsh. I'd say that this demographic certainly includes some folks with more money than sense, but also folks who need/want portability. I for one hate being stuck to a desk to play a game (and annoys the wife ) If you wanna run BF3 or the latest shooter at ultimate settings, no, asking that of a true mobile computer is daft.

All this said, I think folks are wise to remember that gaming has in the past driven a lot of tech progress. Laptops now scream compared to their predecessors only 5 years ago....Apple is using laptop GPUs in the iMacs, and the recent mobile GPUs work darn well. The rMBP is a case in point - though the retina aspect still leaves me wary based on msg boards on MR.

So let folks demand a 13" MBA run BF3 on ultimate settings. Might be absurd, might never happen, but it's poking at the boundaries and that's good to me for everyone, not just gamers.

I'm also no fan of being stuck to a desk. I made the decision a decade ago to exclusively use a laptop ad a desktop replacement. A couple years or so after I decided to get a desktop for some raw power. This was during a period when reasonably affordable LCD monitors weren't widescreen, were still matte (to be fair some prefer that), did not have cams built in, and were 1280x1024. Better ones exist, they just cost a lot. So now I had an inferior (but larger to be fair) display, the extra power was hardly noticeable, the gpu fan would kick in running Aero effects in Windows, and there was a mess of wires everywhere. I said eff it, sold it, and got a laptop. Things are different today and there are obviously better displays and less wires and quiet (and tiny) HTPCs but they are usually laptop components and they are limited to mid-range cards (usually, there are some exceptions) which are in the same ball park as gaming laptops.

So I guess if you have a lot of money, there is probably a market for the really high end dual GPU gaming laptops, but their portability is diminished. They are huge. The battery is a marketing gimmick because it's going to stay plugged into the wall most of the time and the life is a joke. And at that point a gaming desktop is a wiser (and much cheaper) investment. But if you have the money to burn.... The manufacturers who make them are usually the niche guys (besides Alienware I mean) and reliability is a factor. You pay a lot of money and they aren't built like a tank. They've even melted. Heck even Alienwares have melted.

Now having said all that, the rMBP would be a gaming laptop if it were a PC, as luigi.lauro mentioned it's specs are comparable to gaming laptops and it runs games well. Now well us subjected because hardcore PC gamers have a different definition. To them running well might be 60fps minimum at 4k resolution with all settings maxed out. They might think that 60fps at 900p or 1200p is unacceptable. Some of them think 30fps is unplayable but console games it's standard. Speaking of console games, console ports are the reason why PC games can now be even played on integrated graphics cards. In many cases. Again depends on what you think is playable. That might change soon.

 

[ljonesj]

my thing is i dont want to haul a desktop to a friends house when i visit to play some computer games online with him. so i take my macbook pro with me it can play wow really well but i worry about guild wars 2 on it when it releases i think it will play it but the specs of gw2 says it runs on a intel 3000hd my macbook pro is the 320m 13in model

 

[JoeSixPack]

Could someone please save the original post - it could save us some time whenever another one of those treads starts about how there is no longer a need for desktop Macs.

<putting feet back up on external subwoofer/ottoman for another round of Diablo 3>

 

[LeandrodaFL]

No one serious about gaming will game on a laptop. The gamer will have a dedicated gaming machine with a good graphic card.

No one serious about sound will use any notebooks speakers, he will have external's or earphones.

Notebooks are not design for gaming. They can game tough. Just not a recent title. Ive been gaming a lot on my Mac, but they are titles 5 years old.

 

[doh123]

No one serious about gaming will game on a laptop. The gamer will have a dedicated gaming machine with a good graphic card.

No one serious about sound will use any notebooks speakers, he will have external's or earphones.

Notebooks are not design for gaming. They can game tough. Just not a recent title. Ive been gaming a lot on my Mac, but they are titles 5 years old.

define "serious" ....
most current Macs can run any game out there, for many you'll have to install Windows, but it can run current titles, it doesn't have to be 5 years old.

 

[nlr]

Just only if the new iMacs get a gtx 680m

 

[edddeduck]

Just only if the new iMacs get a gtx 680m

That card might be able to fit in an iMac terms of peak wattage and heat rejection figures.

----------

define "serious" ....
most current Macs can run any game out there, for many you'll have to install Windows, but it can run current titles, it doesn't have to be 5 years old.

True, a 4 year old MacBook Pro can play Deus Ex Human Revolution (just).

 

[iMacFarlane]

define "serious" ....
most current Macs can run any game out there, for many you'll have to install Windows, but it can run current titles, it doesn't have to be 5 years old.

Except for games written for PowerPC based Macs. You know, like all the Blizzard titles you can still buy at Walmart and Amazon that say they work on Macs.

 

[doh123]

Except for games written for PowerPC based Macs. You know, like all the Blizzard titles you can still buy at Walmart and Amazon that say they work on Macs.

well I was talking about the ability performance wise.... of course it cannot run games not made for it like PowerPC, or Amiga, or Nintendo Wii, or Xbox, or iOS, or... or...

 

[iMacFarlane]

well I was talking about the ability performance wise.... of course it cannot run games not made for it like PowerPC, or Amiga, or Nintendo Wii, or Xbox, or iOS, or... or...

Amiga - emulator exists

Nintendo Wii - emulator exists (Dolphin - touted as better than the real thing because it displays 1080p instead of 480i)

My point was a continued vent against Apple's decision to kill support for all software written for their computers and user base that were 5 years old or older. Maybe you weren't affected when Lion pounced on everyone else's "Rosetta" or "Carbon" apps and ripped their throats out. Apple provided PowerPC emulation right in OS X from the day they switched to intel until Lion was released.

Point stands. I shouldn't be able to walk into a software reseller and pickup a box that touts "system requirements - Mac OS X 10.4.x or later" when it will not, in fact work on 10.7.x or later.

And, through the wonders of emulation, my iMac can run LOTS of software that wasn't written for it. It can run programs and games intended for:
Atari 2600/5200/Lynx
Commodore 64/128/Vic20/Amiga
Gameboy Original/Color/Pocket/Advance/DS
Sony PSP
Sega MasterSystem/Genesis/Dreamcast/GameGear
Arcade (MAME)
DOS (Boxer)
Windows 3.1/95/98/XP/ME/Vista/7
Nintendo NES/SNES/N64/Gamecube/Wii

So, with that list in mind, isn't it distasteful that my Mac can't run software written for Macs?

 

[doh123]

So, with that list in mind, isn't it distasteful that my Mac can't run software written for Macs?

not really... if it was that important, some company or group or even a person would make an emulator. Since one doesn't really exist, it shows its not really that important overall. So if you want to get in the technical... count emulators and stuff... then yes, your Mac can run absolutely anything including PPC OSX software. How will you do that without Rosetta? Well the ability exists for you to make an emulator to do it... and since you can program anything to do anything, then you can do anything!

 

[antonis]

Or you can just keep snow leopard installed on an external disk (so no space from your internal hd is occupied for this minor usage), boot from there and enjoy any rosetta s/w you want, including all these Blizzard titles.

 

[iMacFarlane]

not really... if it was that important, some company or group or even a person would make an emulator. Since one doesn't really exist, it shows its not really that important overall. So if you want to get in the technical... count emulators and stuff... then yes, your Mac can run absolutely anything including PPC OSX software. How will you do that without Rosetta? Well the ability exists for you to make an emulator to do it... and since you can program anything to do anything, then you can do anything!

You know, that last sentence was actually pretty motivating.

Cheers!

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

whs

if you want a gaming laptop, buy one.

Point me to one that runs OSX and I will.

but they're pretty crap. a laptop just doesn't have enough battery to do any sort of high-end portable gaming on the move. so why bother. a laptop is meant to be portable and usable on the go, not tethered to an AC outlet.

I don't know about you, but when I go on trips, my notebook ends up in a hotel at night and most of them have desks with an outlet nearby to plug my notebook into (and some even offer high speed Ethernet as well). What makes you think just because a laptop is portable that people 'must' game in a coffee shop or McDonalds or something? Just because I can take my notebook with me, that doesn't mean I never have an AC outlet nearby (especially at a hotel). They need recharged regardless (especially with newer Macs that can't change batteries like my '08 model where I can just pop a fresh battery in if I need it).

You're better off spending the money you'd spend on a portable gaming rig on a desktop PC and macbook air, so you have 2 devices that do the job they're built for properly - rather than being useless at both.

So how does that solve gaming issues if I'm on the road? A Macbook Air is pathetic for gaming. I shouldn't want to play a game in a hotel??? Sorry, but your "solution" is useless for people that travel a lot. Apple should offer better options, especially in light of their ability to switch GPUs on demand. Have a light battery mode for surfing, etc. and a high powered gaming mode for when an outlet is available like at hotels, etc. The only thing preventing this from working great is Apple's obsessive need to make everything so freaking thin (their iMac and Mac Mini "desktops" included) that they can't use a more powerful chip that needs better air flow or a thicker case, etc.

Why in the world should I have to buy a SECOND notebook (Windows only) just to play a game at night at my hotel? An extra quarter inch thickness makes ZERO difference to me carrying it in my laptop bag, but it makes a HUGE difference in what can be used inside the notebook.

Apple doesn't make gaming machines. They make excellent computers that do everything quite well, gaming included. But they're definitely not designed with gaming in mind, at least at the forefront, and anyone who thinks Apple should do that is just crazy.

Crazy? That's a strange thing to say given your comments.

One need only look at the success of gaming on iOS devices to see that there is a large market for games in general and the idea of Apple offering ONE Macbook that is targeted to power users and gaming (when they now offer a dedicated "Air" model that is completely redundant with the thin Retina model and THAT model duplicates most of the functions of the larger/slower Macbook Pros. In short, Apple is ALREADY wasting resources on redundant models and so the idea of actually having a POWER Macbook Pro is anything BUT crazy.

I'd love to have a slightly thicker Macbook Pro that has real power in it. Apple getting ridiculous with its obsession for THIN. The products don't have to be THAT freaking thin to be perfectly usable. My '08 MBP is just fine (the Retina model is getting obsessive over tiny reductions and killed Ethernet on it) and could stand to be a bit thicker if it would made it considerably faster for graphics output (which explains why the next model that replaced it wasn't really any faster in that department).

Expecting Apple to make their premium laptops thicker and heavier just to be more powerful with games is one of the silliest things I've ever heard. Who games on a laptop anyway? That's silly in and of itself. If you want a gaming laptop, go buy some 20lb Alienware machine and have fun lugging it around everywhere.

The word "premium" should mean something. WTF are you paying $2000+ for if the machine has tinny (no bass) crap sound and can't even play an EIGHT YEAR OLD game properly??? Eight years old is ANCIENT technology. One could argue they aren't gaming rigs, but there's a point of absurdity as well when the iOS devices game better than the freaking notebooks.

Who would game? I'm away from home with lots of time on my hands right now. You bet you back side I'm gaming on my MBP! Sadly, I have to mostly play older games because newer ones won't run for squat (i.e. it's 4 years old plus it couldn't play newer games well even when it was new because it's underpowered. I'm lucky to play games made in 2006. I just played Jedi Knight 2 (outcast) because Steam has an updated Intel version for cheap. It's still fun, but it's OLD. And yes, it plays just fine on a notebook with a mouse plugged in.

The idea that games don't play well on notebooks just because they are notebooks is absurd. Half the people out there don't even buy "desktops" anymore because notebooks are far more flexible. You plug them into a dock and you've got desktop functionality, yet you can unplug them and take them with you. Having switchable graphics means you could easily have a machine that is a powerhouse when docked or plugged in, but switches back to Intel graphics when running on batteries.

Besides, running a simple game like Bejeweled on my iPod Touch drains its battery in no time so I have to carry an external battery setup around with me (or find an outlet for a charger) if I want to run games on it so it's not that different.

Do what everyone sane does: game on a console or desktop machine. If you want mobile gaming, get a freakin' iPad or something for crying out loud.

Listen to yourself. Get an iPad for gaming? That's like telling someone an Atari2600 is a better option than a Nintendo64.

Sheesh, sorry, I'm just so tired of threads like this and I kind of had to rant. But I'm also completely serious.

I'm tired of whiny fanboys who think because they don't game, no one else does or should either and that's it ridiculous for Apple to support the same demographics out there as other PC makers by offering a VARIETY of models to pick from (and much more so with Apple since they are the ONLY OPTION for OSX machines short of hacking).

 

[edddeduck]

...and can't even play an EIGHT YEAR OLD game properly??? Eight years old is ANCIENT technology. One could argue they aren't gaming rigs, but there's a point of absurdity as well when the iOS devices game better than the freaking notebooks.

Really? Can you name one 8 year old game that will not run properly on a new Retina MacBookPro? Graphics driver bugs due to the new hardware don't count.

I am not saying it's untrue I am just curious because 8 year old titles are games like UT2003 and that era, I struggle myself to think of one that would run slowly due to the "poor hardware" in the new MBP.

Edwin

 

[shulerg]

And, through the wonders of emulation, my iMac can run LOTS of software that wasn't written for it. It can run programs and games intended for:
Atari 2600/5200/Lynx
Commodore 64/128/Vic20/Amiga
Gameboy Original/Color/Pocket/Advance/DS
Sony PSP
Sega MasterSystem/Genesis/Dreamcast/GameGear
Arcade (MAME)
DOS (Boxer)
Windows 3.1/95/98/XP/ME/Vista/7
Nintendo NES/SNES/N64/Gamecube/Wii

^^this

Or spend a not-too-significant amount of money and build a decent gaming rig yourself. Or run virtualbox and install 3d drivers in safe mode for a lot of pre-1998 stuff.

All this said, Macs are pretty good for a lot of games. I never understand the need to be on the bleeding edge of performance. Year-to-year, not many truly good games are made, and great games from years past still have massive followings. I mean, there are still tons of people playing games like Jedi Knight II on gameranger, etc.

 

[thejadedmonkey]

Apple's laptops are actually really powerful, did you know the high end 15" MacBookPro with the CPU upgrade is more powerful than the 27" iMac with a CPU upgrade?

But don't forget that the iMac GPU is still a mobile GPU, not a true desktop GPU. That's the equivalent of saying that a Ford is more powerful than a Toyota Prius in a street race. But there's also a Ferrari next to you. While the Ford/Toyota comparison isn't false, it doesn't take into account anything outside of the Ford and Toyota.

----------

Really? Can you name one 8 year old game that will not run properly on a new Retina MacBookPro? Graphics driver bugs due to the new hardware don't count.

I am not saying it's untrue I am just curious because 8 year old titles are games like UT2003 and that era, I struggle myself to think of one that would run slowly due to the "poor hardware" in the new MBP.

Edwin

I'm pretty sure Warcraft 3 won't run on a new MBP, I can't say for sure about the Retna version, but I know it won't run on my 2011 MBA due to driver problems (it's a patched Intel binary).

 

[edddeduck]

But don't forget that the iMac GPU is still a mobile GPU, not a true desktop GPU. That's the equivalent of saying that a Ford is more powerful than a Toyota Prius in a street race. But there's also a Ferrari next to you. While the Ford/Toyota comparison isn't false, it doesn't take into account anything outside of the Ford and Toyota.

Well sure, (although you might note I was comparing overall spec not just GFX cards).

However if we go down the Ferrari comparison I could say compared to a PC with 3 (over clocked) Nvidia 690GTX 3GB cards in SLI powered with a 12 Core Xeon CPU setup makes the iMac look weak. Does it mean the iMac is not good for games? Not in my opinion.

My point was the MacBookPro easily held it's own again the 27" iMac which is pretty decent at playing modern PC games. It might not be anywhere near a custom rig like the one above but it can play all modern games on decent settings that for most gamers is enough.

Edwin

----------

I'm pretty sure Warcraft 3 won't run on a new MBP, I can't say for sure about the Retna version, but I know it won't run on my 2011 MBA due to driver problems (it's a patched Intel binary).

Well as I said that does not count as it is not due to under powered hardware its just a bug due to the hardware being very new and having bugs in the OS drivers. Also the MBA uses an integrated card without any Video RAM so is not designed to play games. However all 8 year old games that are supported on Mountain Lion should run really fast on that machine even if it is massively underpowered in the 3D department.

Edwin

 

[Consultant]

Diablo 3 and other games work great even on my current 2011 MacBook Pro, which is 2 generations older. Current gen MBP should be even better.