What REALLY is the difference between FirePro and consumer?

[unplugme71]

Workstation graphics vs gaming graphics is pretty much like this:

Workstation graphic cards are clocked a bit slower to provide more stability. They are able to model and render 2D and 3D better for CAD applications. Don't get me wrong, their hardware is pretty intense in the fact they can model/render **** very quick if you spend the money for it. They typically have less memory, but have ECC support.

Gaming graphic cards have a physics processors or engines. This allows for better gaming performance, texture, etc. So when you look at a cloud of smoke, you'll see much better detail. The cards are also clocked faster to provide better performance for the dollar.

This is what I remember from 2010-2011, so technology could have changed since then but for the most part, we used a lot of the FirePro when using AutoCAD and SolidWorks. You can actually see a difference between a workstation card vs gaming.

 

[deconstruct60]

Perhaps he was referring to these facts:

Which have nothing to do with generations.

Nvidia's GK104 successor was GK110,

That isn't a fact. Those are two different implementations of the same general architecture. GK110 was rollout out first in the "Pro" line and than moved to the "consumer" line. That is basically a rebadge in my book. It isn't particularly "new". Same product with subcomponents flipped on/off. That isn't a "generation".

AMD's Tahiti Successor is Hawaii

Chuckles. That why there are R9 instances of both right? Hawaii is not particular any successor to Tahiti than Tahiti is a successor to Pitcairn. Especially when it comes to graphics. Hawaii has some DSP stuff but that isn't particularly generational graphics.

AMD has no Hawaii Pro cards, yet.

Even if they did it wouldn't necessarily be a new generation. If drop the Hawaii Pro card as the W10000 or W9050 it won't particularly move anything to a new generation. or remap

hawaii ---> W9050
W9000 --> W8050
W7000 ---> W7050

That is just rebadging not generational.

Nvidia has been pretty regular about knocking AMD down and taking their candy.

Fanboy posturing which also don't particularly have much to do with generations.

The fact that you can already put better GPUs in OLD MP than any amount of dollar burning will get you in nMP is rather significant and just more Nvidia leaving AMD for dead.

Oh the obligatory sales pitch spun as facts ........... yawn.

 

[Nugget]

You're actually wrong here

I was just poking fun at you for picking nits over rated power vs. delivered power when discussing the Apple PSU and then leading right into a comparison to the rated power of a theoretical consumer Dell mini-tower. In reality, you're way high in your "400W" guess for the Dell, but I understood what you meant. Even if you'd pulled an accurate Dell power supply rating out of thin air, it was still an apples to oranges comparison.

Optiplex mini-tower is a 305W (wall draw) power supply, not 400W.

 

[slughead]

There is no way the D700 BTO is going to be a $7000, or even $3500 upgrade.

By that logic the D500 should be a $1480 or more (2xW7000's) upgrade and its not, its more like $640 when you subtract the processor and ram additions to the hex over the quad.

The D700 is probably over $1000 BTO, but I would bet under $2000 for the pair, unless they plan on selling next to none.

I would be surprised if it were $7000 as well, but I would absolutely s*** a chicken if it were only $1000 BTO. At that price they'd be getting a flock of nMP buyers from the windows side who want W9000-level performance (or at least in the ballpark) for >$2,000 less (plus a free Hex core Xeon processor/mobo).

My guess is ~$2,000 minimum, but probably more like >$3000. That is still an amazing deal... Again, unless you're buying that GPU for gaming, in which case you're a silly fool, for the reasons described above.

 

[MacVidCards]

That isn't a fact. Those are two different implementations of the same general architecture. GK110 was rollout out first in the "Pro" line and than moved to the "consumer" line. That is basically a rebadge in my book. It isn't particularly "new". Same product with subcomponents flipped on/off. That isn't a "generation".

Huh, yet when someone thought they would work on same drivers you had a different opinion.

The 680 GK104
The Titan GK110

They are different. Unless the driver has lots of forward compatible flexibility, the GK110 weren't deployed at all when the drivers for GK104 rolled out.

I doubt it was only chip yields holding back the rollout of the GK110.

They're different, they're rebadged, they're different. Which is it?

So while you aren't being consistent, you are being consistently argumentative.

When I said "AMD's Tahiti Successor is Hawaii" you replied:

Chuckles. That why there are R9 instances of both right? Hawaii is not particular any successor to Tahiti than Tahiti is a successor to Pitcairn. Especially when it comes to graphics. Hawaii has some DSP stuff but that isn't particularly generational graphics..........hawaii ---> W9050
W9000 --> W8050
W7000 ---> W7050

That is just rebadging not generational.

And I would stand by my original assessment. Two years later and with different drivers. TWO YEARS. I'm not sure why you disputed this, other than the sheer joy of saying "no, you're wrong".

First up, when has the name of a card ever meant anything? When the 8800GT (G92) was getting long in tooth, Nvidia renamed it "GTS250" so you would think it was GT200 like GTX285. Did this ACTUALLY change anything? Nope. R9 290 is a new card. R9 280X is just a new name, for a 2 year old card. (7970). They didn't even change the device id. To OSX, it is a 7970.

All of the renamed cards work OOTB in OSX as their old name if device id the same. Meanwhile, the R9 290X (Hawaii) has only faint beginnings of drivers. No framebuffer allocated for it. You should read up on R9 290X, it isn't a re-badge, it's new.

In fact when Virtual Rain said they were the same as old 7xxx you argued with him:

Technically, no. A subset, but there are new variants that have the Audio DSP in them. Additionally, the Hawaii parts are new graphics cofinguration. For the rest, the graphics pipeline doesn't have major or minor changes but most of the "X" models aren't the same. Likewise the "X" models with the audio subset clipped off technically are different from old models that didn't have it at all.

Guess you changed your mind, AGAIN.

Oh, and as far as this one:

I typed:

"The fact that you can already put better GPUs in OLD MP than any amount of dollar burning will get you in nMP is rather significant and just more Nvidia leaving AMD for dead."

You ever so drolly replied:

Oh the obligatory sales pitch spun as facts ........... yawn.

Whatever else it is, that statement is a FACT, can't really dispute it can you? Numbers are at Barefeats.com if you are interested.

 

[iBug2]

Really? I've been doing that professionally for 15 years!

Yeah but do you want to do it or you do it because you have to do it?

----------

That's exactly what I do, works great! (see my sig)

Yeah I saw your setup. It looks like a nightmare. My setup is half that and even that's too many cables and devices for me. I want to get rid of everything. I wish all this could fit into a single mac mini.

 

[slughead]

Yeah I saw your setup. It looks like a nightmare. My setup is half that and even that's too many cables and devices for me. I want to get rid of everything. I wish all this could fit into a single mac mini.

The point is that many people run dual setups, in spite of your presumption that "nobody" does.

 

[spaz8]

I'm in the market for a display port KVM switch right now to go between my PC and MP, I don't think I'll see a TB based KVM anytime soon. When I swap the MP 1,1 for a nMP in a month or 2.

I think a mini display port KVM is the best option, unless people can recommend otherwise. Sharing 2 large dell monitors between a new PC and eventually nMP.

 

[iBug2]

The point is that many people run dual setups, in spite of your presumption that "nobody" does.

I never said nobody runs dual setups. I said nobody wants to run dual setups. I'm an avid gamer but I never purchased a gaming PC just for that, simply because I'd hate to use such a setup even though it'd make certain things much easier for me.

 

[tuxon86]

I never said nobody runs dual setups. I said nobody wants to run dual setups. I'm an avid gamer but I never purchased a gaming PC just for that, simply because I'd hate to use such a setup even though it'd make certain things much easier for me.

And you're wrong about that. Many do...

 

[beaker7]

I said nobody wants to run dual setups.

I want to and do run 4 machines as primary interactive workstations. Each is suited to a particular task. And thats not even considering gaming.

So technically I guess i cannot refute your point in that you specified dual when I am running quad.

 

[handsome pete]

And you're wrong about that. Many do...

But "many" in regards to what scale? I've seen this same kind of talking point in other Mac Pro threads touting the advantages of the smaller system now being more portable.

Sure, there are many who do run dual systems, and many who need portability out of a workstation. But in the grand scheme of things, these scenarios are still part of a niche user base.

 

[iBug2]

I want to and do run 4 machines as primary interactive workstations. Each is suited to a particular task. And thats not even considering gaming.

So technically I guess i cannot refute your point in that you specified dual when I am running quad.

Yeah? And if a single machine could do all that your quad setup would do, would you still prefer 4 machines or a single one?

 

[beaker7]

Yeah? And if a single machine could do all that your quad setup would do, would you still prefer 4 machines or a single one?

I suppose in some mythical world where one machine had enough computing and I/O capacity to handle all the tasks I do at once with complete 100% reliability, then sure.

I am usually using at least 3 at once. One for running simulations, one for working interactively on a project in a 3d app, one for ingesting/ transcoding .r3d or other footage, etc. The redundancy is also important in the unlikely even that one goes down for some reason.

 

[echoout]

Yeah but do you want to do it or you do it because you have to do it?

Niether? Both? Having a powerful Mac and PC side by side is what I need to get the job done. Just the tools of my trade. Nothing to argue about really.

 

[tuxon86]

Niether? Both? Having a powerful Mac and PC side by side is what I need to get the job done. Just the tools of my trade. Nothing to argue about really.

vanilla or chocolate, straight or kinky...

 

[goMac]

That's only if Apple offers a bridge or Crossfire works over PCIe with these cards.

I've been told, straight from the horses mouth, that Crossfire should work in Windows.

(Crossfire doesn't require a bridge anymore these days any way.)

7970 is only a year old, no? It just got replaced.

 

[MacVidCards]

I've been told, straight from the horses mouth, that Crossfire should work in Windows.

(Crossfire doesn't require a bridge anymore these days any way.)

7970 is only a year old, no? It just got replaced.

The Radeon HD 7900 series was announced on December 22, 2011 , so about to have 2nd birthday. Apple is throwing it a "2 years old" party by renaming and reintroducing in MP.

It is older gen that still had CF connectors

New gen, "Hawaii" no longer has them.

If you go to Newegg and look at pix of R9 280X you will see they still have them. This is new name for 7970 cards. A guy at Netkas was able to write a fully functioning rom using the 7950/70 EFI.

R9 290X is new generation, "Hawaii" and due to changes in this new generation, no longer needs them.

 

[N19h7m4r3]

Nearly two years old and still holding it's(7970) own against current NVIDIA cards, such as the GTX770, and sometimes the GTX780 in gaming.

In OpenCL it completely devastates them. Still good cards.

I am saddened though that after this time there hasn't been any real massive jumps in performance while keeping power usage and heat output in check.

The R9 290's are fast, I'll give them that. The heat they generate, and power consumption is nasty though.
It's like NVIDIA's Fermi all over again. Hopefully a decent refresh comes out next year, and with it better FirePro cards.

If you're set on a new Mac Pro, I'd would wait for decent reviews, and tear downs. Even then I'd prefer to wait for the second generation of them. Get any and all bugs sorted out, and hopefully move to Hawaii based FirePros, that have hopefully seen some improvements in the power usage, and heat output areas.

 

[MacVidCards]

Nearly two years old and still holding it's(7970) own against current NVIDIA cards, such as the GTX770, and sometimes the GTX780 in gaming.

In OpenCL it completely devastates them. Still good cards.

I will give you the OpenCl win, but I don't believe I have ever seen another test where the 7970 can even see the 780's taillights.

The 7970 ran neck & neck with 670/680, even in it's "gigaHertz" version.

And an overclocked 780 like "lowrider" has...well:

"Compared to the GTX 780 reference design, the improvement is 7% on average and 11%(!) at 2560x1600. AMD's fastest single-GPU card, the HD 7970 GHz, is 27% slower—no danger at all."

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Gigabyte/GeForce_GTX_780_OC/31.html

Since the Ghz Edition is the overclocked 7970, I think a 27% delta between them is rather substantial.

I don't believe that 7970 can even keep up with 770. Maybe you got model numbers mixed up?

The 7970 Ghz was competition for 670/680.

"The Radeon HD 7970 GHz Edition isn’t quite fast enough to outright win, but it is unquestionably fast enough to tie the GeForce GTX 680 as the fastest single-GPU video card in the world today. " (June 2012)

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6025/radeon-hd-7970-ghz-edition-review-catching-up-to-gtx-680/19

 

[beaker7]

Is the 7970 faster in CUDA applications?

 

[echoout]

vanilla or chocolate, straight or kinky... :d

i`m your private dancer
a dancer for money
i`ll do what you want me to do
i`m your private dancer
a dancer for money
and any old music will do

 

[slughead]

Is the 7970 faster in CUDA applications?

Nice.

----------

Nearly two years old and still holding it's(7970) own against current NVIDIA cards, such as the GTX770, and sometimes the GTX780 in gaming.

I will give you the OpenCl win, but I don't believe I have ever seen another test where the 7970 can even see the 780's taillights.

Have to agree with MVC, the GTX680 & 7970 are really left behind by the 780. It really is a generational advancement.

The biggest difference is with 2560x1600 gaming. The 780 (especially non-reference) really puts those cards out of the running in high-res gaming, and is up there with the 690 and 7990.

----------

I've been told, straight from the horses mouth, that Crossfire should work in Windows.

You heard this from whom? Can you find a Tahiti-based card that does CF over PCIe?

I'm not saying the nMP wont do CF, I'm just saying there's no evidence of that (unless you have some?)

----------

I never said nobody runs dual setups. I said nobody wants to run dual setups. I'm an avid gamer but I never purchased a gaming PC just for that, simply because I'd hate to use such a setup even though it'd make certain things much easier for me.

You mean you don't want to run a dual setup.

Now that I spent the time to set it up the way I want, I'm enjoying my setup and the ability to play games without rebooting into Windows... just 1 button and I can be playing BF4 in 20 seconds.

 

[iBug2]

You mean you don't want to run a dual setup.

Now that I spent the time to set it up the way I want, I'm enjoying my setup and the ability to play games without rebooting into Windows... just 1 button and I can be playing BF4 in 20 seconds.

No I mean nobody wants to run dual setups. If you could get what you have in a single machine you also wouldn't buy two computers for the sake of it. You run a dual setup because you don't want to trade performance for ease or simplicity. Not because it's an attractive thing.

 

[N19h7m4r3]

I will give you the OpenCl win, but I don't believe I have ever seen another test where the 7970 can even see the 780's taillights.

The 7970 ran neck & neck with 670/680, even in it's "gigaHertz" version.

And an overclocked 780 like "lowrider" has...well:

"Compared to the GTX 780 reference design, the improvement is 7% on average and 11%(!) at 2560x1600. AMD's fastest single-GPU card, the HD 7970 GHz, is 27% slower—no danger at all."

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Gigabyte/GeForce_GTX_780_OC/31.html

Since the Ghz Edition is the overclocked 7970, I think a 27% delta between them is rather substantial.


The 7970 Ghz was competition for 670/680.

"The Radeon HD 7970 GHz Edition isn’t quite fast enough to outright win, but it is unquestionably fast enough to tie the GeForce GTX 680 as the fastest single-GPU video card in the world today. " (June 2012)

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6025/radeon-hd-7970-ghz-edition-review-catching-up-to-gtx-680/19

Drivers play a big role, the 7970 Ghz is now the R9 280X, and it's just behind the 780 in some games.

You can't look at old benchmarks, we should all know that!
If we did, we'd all still assume the 7970 is barely faster than a GTX580.
Sure the 7970Ghz isn't butting direct heads against the 780, but it's not all that far behind given the generational gap.
Especially if we look at the 280X TOP/OC'd cards, they're amazing bang for buck at the moment.


Launch reviews of the 7970, barely ahead of the GTX580

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5261/amd-radeon-hd-7970-review/22

http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/amd_radeon_hd_7970_review,25.html

http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/foru...s/49646-amd-radeon-hd-7970-3gb-review-25.html

I don't believe that 7970 can even keep up with 770. Maybe you got model numbers mixed up?

http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/radeon_r7_260x_r9_270x_280x_review_benchmarks,27.html

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7400/the-radeon-r9-280x-review-feat-asus-xfx/19
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7406/the-sapphire-r9-280x-toxic-review/6
http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/battlefield_4_vga_graphics_performance_benchmark,7.html

http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/foru...s/63522-amd-radeon-r9-280x-3gb-review-13.html

They're still incredibly good cards, especially considering how cheap they are now.
Also note that in the UK, and Ireland getting an OC'd 280X is the same price as reference. In fact I've not even seen a reference card of the 280x near me yet.

Yes they can't compete against OC'd cards, and in CUDA they're useless, but considering their age there is really Nothing in the current price range that competes against them in overall performance, and especially in OpenCL.

I have no issue with Apple using nearly two year old cards in their systems, as any AMD card that's not a current 290 fits that bill.

The same as any NVIDIA card that's not at least a 780 and higher does as well.
In the end it's down to overall performance, and we're forgetting Apple are trying to focus entirely on OpenCL ( something that is kinda wrong in and of itself, there needs to be an option for CUDA as well), where AMD excels without any competition.

In the end I'll state again that personally I would wait until the second generation of the new MacPro to see what happens in regards to their graphics cards.
I can't see AMD sitting around idly when they need to get new FirePros out for it.