What’s on your mind?

[adrianlondon]

Got into a fight with my girlfriend last night and she said something that not only hurt my feelings, but also haunted me since then: "You'll never find anyone else. You have too much baggage." It still stings the next day.

Negging. Google it, if you've not heard of it. It's a red flag.

How much do you want this relationship? Rhetorical question, or at least not one you should answer here. Just think it through and work out whether to open up the topic between you both, or end the relationship, or something in-between,

 

[MacMorrison]

Got into a fight with my girlfriend last night and she said something that not only hurt my feelings, but also haunted me since then: "You'll never find anyone else. You have too much baggage." It still stings the next day.

She said it because she knew it would hurt you - that's the risk of letting someone in. It's pure projection, not a fact.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Friends in academia are reporting that the (ab)use of AI has now become a scourge in the classroom, in assignments, essays, and - worst of all - in some cases, in exams.

One friend fiercely said that she would recommend hauling students back to an exam hall to sit their exams in person, under close supervision, remarking that for all of the stress of such a setting, at least one could rest assured that the work the students submitted was their own, and not scripted by AI.

A neighbour - who is a schoolteacher - told me today that some - too many - of his students "are parented by device" and that and that their attention spans are negligible ("almost non-existent").

Others in teaching - at all levels - have observed that the social skills of many of the students suffered during the pandemic and have yet to fully recover.

Most of the AI generated "results" stuff coming through from Google as "page one" search results is looking rather copy/pasty. So copy/paste by student scholars of copy/past junk. Depressing.

I'm teaching Frontend Development at a higher level vocational school, though for how long, I'm not sure, the decline in student numbers is starting to hurt, but that's for another thread, I think, but the main point is that AI has changed our field...probably forever.

Now, we've always had issues with different kinds of "plagiarism", from taking stuff from Stack overflow, sharing code, up to just basically copying existing projects, so the issues now associated with AI isn't new, but it's made the ease of witch students can "cheat" a couple of orders more available. An AI can, basically, generate a week long Course Assignment in 5 minutes.

But, the industry actually want's developers that can use the new AI tools, so we cannot ban them outright (and that would, IMHO, just have been stupid to do, the modern equivalent of sticking our collective heads in the sand)

So, we try to teach them how to use the new tools, while still learning the fundamentals. Because - as you say with writing - if they cannot assess the code they get back from the AI, then they have no real idea what they deliver (almost said "have no real idea what they are doing"). If they just get the AI code and don't know how to debug it, even if it works at a superficial level there may be - and often are - underlying issues.

And just as important, if they know the fundamentals they can - much more efficiently - ask the AIs the right questions, both initially, but just as importantly - if not more so - when trying to tweak and fix the (often flawed) first responses from the AIs, and thereby get better end results.


So, among other things, we've introduced a new AI Policy (that expands on our old plagiarism rules), where we basically say they can use AI all they want, but they need to keep track of their usage, and there are still some things not allowed:


And we follow that up in our academic conduct rules:



Basically, if the students are using AI to learn, then it's OK, if they use AI to do the work for them, it's not.

I had an excellent long chat last night with the best student I have ever taught, who has become a good friend; she is a barrister and an academic, teaching law.

She described her attempts to deal with the havoc caused by AI, explaining that it goes well beyond plagiarism, (adding that "plagiarism, bad grammar and poor spelling were all we had to deal with in the old days" - this was also the world that I dwelt in, when I inhabited Ivory Towers), as, with AI, not only do the students not learn the material, but, one cannot credibly grade the material as not only did they not write it themselves, but you have no way of knowing how much they had read, let alone how much they actually knew, or understood, or had actually learned, - or remembered - of the material they presented as theirs.

Her - suggested - and planned, and intended - solutions included not just hauling the students in to a hall, to sit exams in person, but to insist on hand-written assignments in these exams, and to hit them with written (hand written) assignments, or questions, immediately after lectures. "That will tell me how much they know, or understand," she said.

She said that the exams were so dreadful - and that there was no way of knowing how much (one assumed most, if not all) had been written by AI (and all too often quite wrong) - that she had been giving this an awful lot of thought.

Actually, her view is that the abuse of AI has virtually destroyed the capacity of students for critical thought, and analytical thinking.

I suggested rapid fire - in person, in class - oral exams, or tests, as well - it is what I would do in such circumstances, in addition to her ideas.

This also means that the old days - when one was sympathetic to students - of giving hints in class as to the sort of areas which might appear on an exam paper is also consigned to the past: "This is because they will simply feed those questions to AI, and learn the answers off by heart", was her grim conclusion.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I hope you will read this. I am going to attempt to answer this question in hopefully a convincing way, because I feel very strongly about this, especially as fewer people see the value in an education. Not to center around the United States, but I heard a statistic that only 30% of Americans believe in the value of a college education.

Going to college has allowed me to do the following (not a complete list):

• Study jazz music with the best teachers I could ever work with
• Study avant-garde/experimental music
• Study classical piano in addition to jazz (what I was brought up under)
• Play the piano with intention; wisely interpret pieces in bold, new, and unexpected ways, but always with a sense of purpose foremost; come at the instrument with a sense of relaxation and calm
• Perform Steve Reich's "Music for 18 Musicians"
• Play in a big band with a world-famous drummer
• Travel to New York to perform
• Become very close friends with one of the best classical pianists I've ever met (truly an honor, as I am not involved in classical music at all back home)
• Live in an entirely new part of the country
• Learn about new career paths I didn't even know existed for me
• Study political science in addition to music (not to become a politician, but because I like the way political scientists think)
• Learn to listen to others better
• Learn what I do and don't want out of a career
• Be around thoughtful people who care
• Learn to respect people whose opinions I don't agree with
• Learn to put two unrelated sources together to form new, bigger conclusions
• Learn to take things slowly
• Learn that one does not need to choose a career at the age of 20 - or 25 - or even 30.
• Learn what my stress limit is, how many things I can do at once
• Take risks
• Learn to accept change

And the list just goes on. This is just off the top of my head. I think all of these can be attributed to me attending college. Of course, some of these things would happen regardless, but I really do feel I have gotten all of these things here.

Society will eventually figure out what AI's limits are (both computationally and ethically). If "economic woes" are part of the reason behind citizens' declining interest in college, that, too is cyclical. More serious thought needs to be put into these questions before blanket conclusions can be drawn.

You cannot claim that something is "worthless" without looking at its values first. And, not everyone wants to pursue AI, software, finance, tech, law, business, or medicine - the paths that seem the most "straightforward" and - SUPPOSEDLY - lead to the "most money." The "corporatization" of education upsets me to no end; fortunately, my institution I feel is still "normal." To those who think college is "worthless," please re-examine using statistics, critical thinking, and deep consideration into your values. And, to those who think that college is just about getting a job, read my above list.

And, this needs its own paragraph - my word, GET OFF SOCIAL MEDIA.

What a wonderful post.

It is clear that you love university and that it has been of enormous benefit for you, not just academically, but personally, psychologically, and - eventually, probably - professionally, as well.

In any case, I loved my time at university, too, and, later, I loved teaching at university.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Agreed.



I don't think it'll make much difference, but it will increase awareness which is a good thing. VPNs and other workarounds will make the ban too weak to be useful, and even without social media I've seen 8-12 year olds just scroll youtube shorts and tiktok reels over and over. No account needed, just parents who don't fully understand the damage this might cause. This is much better than having an account where you share details and interact with people, but still not good for a growing person's attention span.



And no photos uploaded! I had many interesting experiences when young, but I'm glad they're not documented outside of my head and with the people I was with at the time.

So true. I’d hate to see some of my drunken antics as a teenager online forever for future employers to see!

 

[poorcody]

I hope you will read this. I am going to attempt to answer this question in hopefully a convincing way, because I feel very strongly about this, especially as fewer people see the value in an education. Not to center around the United States, but I heard a statistic that only 30% of Americans believe in the value of a college education.

[...]

Totally agree with everything you say.

Can I ask, how much is tuition at your school? Because I think a lot of the discussion (in America) is cost. When students are carrying student loans 25 years after graduation, there comes a point where you have to evaluate what is ideal and what is practical. I have a neighbor in her mid 70's who has payments being withdrawn from her social security for her student debt she acquired as a teenager.

Obviously the problem on the macro-level is funding and cost, not devaluing how useful an education is. But on the individual level, it is very unfortunate young people have to take the value-proposition into mind today.

 

[arkitect]

At one point, I think around the year 2000, the goal was to have 50% of the population going to University. Manufacturing and manual labour was out, and everyone was meant to get jobs in IT or finance.

👍👍👍 Indeed. What Thatcher begat and Blair continued with gusto…

Much as I was fortunate to go to university and walk away with a career that took me around the world, university education is hugely overrated.

Where are our manual skills?

I had this discussion the other night with some architects…

If Westminster Abbey burnt down, as Notre Dame de Paris did a few years ago, the UK would not have the skills and know how to get it back like France did. Sure there's lots of money around in London, but pffffft We all know how that will go. Null Point!

Look at Germany or France, being a craftsman or a manual worker is not something you look down on…

Next time at one of those godawful gatherings in North London, when asked, "And what is it that you do xxxxx?" Just look at them squirm if you answer, "I'm a woodworker." "I am a stone mason."
More likely than not they'll stand there, clutching their M&S Taste the Difference canapé, gasping like a floundering fish.

Now answer, "Oh I'm a WBanker." and they'll be all over you.

And yes if Westminster Abbey did burn down, we'd probably get another Norman Foster airport with art by Hearst, Emin and Kapoor turning it into an installation art space… so the chattering classes can all go: "Oh, Woooooooooow. Love it darling."

Edit:
Apologies. The hayfever season is making me itchy and scratchy and tetchy.

 

[adrianlondon]

I moved to Switzerland a few years ago (and now bounce between here and England; mainly here) and they take apprenticeships seriously; as they do in Germany.

I believe the UK is waking up to this option now, too. There's a bit of a "catch 22" though, in that in the UK we're so used to cowboy builders and the like, it'll take a while until these jobs are taken seriously and people are willing to pay them appropriately.

 

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

I had an excellent long chat last night with the best student I have ever taught, who has become a good friend; she is a barrister and an academic, teaching law.

She described her attempts to deal with the havoc caused by AI, explaining that it goes well beyond plagiarism, (adding that "plagiarism, bad grammar and poor spelling were all we had to deal with in the old days" - this was also the world that I dwelt in, when I inhabited Ivory Towers), as, with AI, not only do the students not learn the material, but, one cannot credibly grade the material as not only did they not write it themselves, but you have no way of knowing how much they had read, let alone how much they actually knew, or understood, or had actually learned, - or remembered - of the material they presented as theirs.

Her - suggested - and planned, and intended - solutions included not just hauling the students in to a hall, to sit exams in person, but to insist on hand-written assignments in these exams, and to hit them with written (hand written) assignments, or questions, immediately after lectures. "That will tell me how much they know, or understand," she said.

She said that the exams were so dreadful - and that there was no way of knowing how much (one assumed most, if not all) had been written by AI (and all too often quite wrong) - that she had been giving this an awful lot of thought.

Actually, her view is that the abuse of AI has virtually destroyed the capacity of students for critical thought, and analytical thinking.

I suggested rapid fire - in person, in class - oral exams, or tests, as well - it is what I would do in such circumstances, in addition to her ideas.

This also means that the old days - when one was sympathetic to students - of giving hints in class as to the sort of areas which might appear on an exam paper is also consigned to the past: "This is because they will simply feed those questions to AI, and learn the answers off by heart", was her grim conclusion.

Yes, I've been coming to a similar conclusion, but with a slight twist:

I still think that students can use whatever tools that are available (within reason) - because if they use AI to _learn_ then I have no problem with it - and they can still have (long) project exams at their own accord, BUT then they need to have some sort of presentation with some follow up (read: control) questions to see if they actually know what they've delivered; which is a kind of oral exam(ination), I guess.

Also, in subjects where a project (or some other delivered work) isn't viable, then I'm also for a full oral exam (like we did in some subjects in the olden days, or at least as late as in the early 2000s).

But, the last remains if those old, tested ways disappeared with Covid; but I guess the education administrators then noticed how time consuming (read: expensive) proper examination really is, and it'll probably won't come back... at least not until they have to.

 

[boswald]

Yes, I've been coming to a similar conclusion, but with a slight twist:

I still think that students can use whatever tools that are available (within reason) - because if they use AI to _learn_ then I have no problem with it - and they can still have (long) project exams at their own accord, BUT then they need to have some sort of presentation with some follow up (read: control) questions to see if they actually know what they've delivered; which is a kind of oral exam(ination), I guess.

Also, in subjects where a project (or some other delivered work) isn't viable, then I'm also for a full oral exam (like we did in some subjects in the olden days, or at least as late as in the early 2000s).

But, the last remains if those old, tested ways disappeared with Covid; but I guess the education administrators then noticed how time consuming (read: expensive) proper examination really is, and it'll probably won't come back... at least not until they have to.

I think AI could be a great tool to get familiar with just to keep up with the world, but when it becomes so ubiquitous that it does the thinking for you, there's a serious problem. Is that bad parenting, technology addiction, or some other reason? I use GPT from time-to-time to learn things, but I still like to think for myself.

 

[rm5]

Totally agree with everything you say.

Can I ask, how much is tuition at your school? Because I think a lot of the discussion (in America) is cost. When students are carrying student loans 25 years after graduation, there comes a point where you have to evaluate what is ideal and what is practical. I have a neighbor in her mid 70's who has payments being withdrawn from her social security for her student debt she acquired as a teenager.

Obviously the problem on the macro-level is funding and cost, not devaluing how useful an education is. But on the individual level, it is very unfortunate young people have to take the value-proposition into mind today.

I will not be specific, and for everyone's financial situation it's different. I will say this much - it is far, far less than $50k.

You have to be smart about getting as much aid and scholarships as possible. My brother, who just graduated high school, is attending a pretty well-known (for its field) institution and paying very little. No need to take out loans. Even if you do need to, an education is still worthwhile. There is always a way.

 

[decafjava]

So many excellent posts today, this is the right place to hang out I see. Maybe I shoiuld start a new thread but wondering if aynone has a) ever read Dune b) read the Pope's encyclical on AI or c) ever used Substack. Well this probably won't fly here as it is way too political but still.

 

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

So many excellent posts today, this is the right place to hang out I see. Maybe I shoiuld start a new thread but wondering if aynone has a) ever read Dune b) read the Pope's encyclical on AI or c) ever used Substack. Well this probably won't fly here as it is way too political but still.

a) Yes, but a while back (also seen the Lynch movie, the 2000/3 mini series (which are better than their reputation, BTW), and the first 2 in Villeneuve's trilogy)
b) No
c) No (if you mean writing) and yes (if you mean very infrequent reading)

Dune is a bit far into the future though (except for Dune: Prophecy); I just rewatched the uneven Elysium yesterday, which is much closer to our time - and hopefully without going too political - I can easily envision that's the segregated world we're more than likely are headed towards at the moment...

 

[poorcody]

I will not be specific, and for everyone's financial situation it's different. I will say this much - it is far, far less than $50k.

You have to be smart about getting as much aid and scholarships as possible. My brother, who just graduated high school, is attending a pretty well-known (for its field) institution and paying very little. No need to take out loans. Even if you do need to, an education is still worthwhile. There is always a way.

Yeah education in America is a lot like healthcare: one person may spend $600 for an MRI, someone else might spend $6000.

You do need to be smart and take the initiative with scholarships, and getting them is to an extent a meritorious undertaking. The problem is luck is a bigger factor (e.g. how much money your parents make/save, your god-given IQ and talents, the high school you go to, the school you want to go to, what you want to study etc.)

According to Gemini there is $1.87 trillion in student debt in the U.S.

Trillion.

 

[poorcody]

She described her attempts to deal with the havoc caused by AI, explaining that it goes well beyond plagiarism, (adding that "plagiarism, bad grammar and poor spelling were all we had to deal with in the old days" - this was also the world that I dwelt in, when I inhabited Ivory Towers), as, with AI, not only do the students not learn the material, but, one cannot credibly grade the material as not only did they not write it themselves, but you have no way of knowing how much they had read, let alone how much they actually knew, or understood, or had actually learned, - or remembered - of the material they presented as theirs.

Ran across an article in The Atlantic about how Princeton has had to change their testing policy/honor code due all these problems:

How AI Killed a 133-Year-Old Princeton Tradition

The school’s famous Honor Code was no match for chatbot-enabled cheating.

www.theatlantic.com

Another source:

Princeton ends 133-year no-proctor exam tradition amid AI cheating concerns

Princeton University is ending its 133-year no-proctor exam tradition, with all in-person tests set to be monitored starting July 1. (AP photo)

www.wcnc.com

 

[Scepticalscribe]

👍👍👍 Indeed. What Thatcher begat and Blair continued with gusto…

Much as I was fortunate to go to university and walk away with a career that took me around the world, university education is hugely overrated.

Where are our manual skills?

I had this discussion the other night with some architects…

If Westminster Abbey burnt down, as Notre Dame de Paris did a few years ago, the UK would not have the skills and know how to get it back like France did. Sure there's lots of money around in London, but pffffft We all know how that will go. Null Point!

Look at Germany or France, being a craftsman or a manual worker is not something you look down on…

Next time at one of those godawful gatherings in North London, when asked, "And what is it that you do xxxxx?" Just look at them squirm if you answer, "I'm a woodworker." "I am a stone mason."
More likely than not they'll stand there, clutching their M&S Taste the Difference canapé, gasping like a floundering fish.

Now answer, "Oh I'm a WBanker." and they'll be all over you.

And yes if Westminster Abbey did burn down, we'd probably get another Norman Foster airport with art by Hearst, Emin and Kapoor turning it into an installation art space… so the chattering classes can all go: "Oh, Woooooooooow. Love it darling."

Edit:
Apologies. The hayfever season is making me itchy and scratchy and tetchy.

My good friend (and one time best student I have ever taught), married a chap she had known for a good while, also a former student of mine; when we were chatting two nights ago, and she - among other things - was also telling me about him.

He had returned to study, (their eldest child is profoundly autistic, and is now in care; he had been the stay-at-home carer for much of that child's - now adult's - life) and he is now an archaeologist, and, for him (his speciality is the Viking era) and his colleagues the actual work is very manual; they do the actual digging of trenches themselves.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Yes, I've been coming to a similar conclusion, but with a slight twist:

I still think that students can use whatever tools that are available (within reason) - because if they use AI to _learn_ then I have no problem with it - and they can still have (long) project exams at their own accord, BUT then they need to have some sort of presentation with some follow up (read: control) questions to see if they actually know what they've delivered; which is a kind of oral exam(ination), I guess.

Also, in subjects where a project (or some other delivered work) isn't viable, then I'm also for a full oral exam (like we did in some subjects in the olden days, or at least as late as in the early 2000s).

But, the last remains if those old, tested ways disappeared with Covid; but I guess the education administrators then noticed how time consuming (read: expensive) proper examination really is, and it'll probably won't come back... at least not until they have to.

My friend remarked that (if implemented) her suggestions will have two immediate consequences: One is exactly what you have just alluded to, a far greater examination workload for academic staff, which is an unpleasant - but necessary - consequence. The second is that the failure rate will - inevitably - also increase, perhaps substantially, which will come as an unwelcome surprise to some.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Ran across an article in The Atlantic about how Princeton has had to change their testing policy/honor code due all these problems:

How AI Killed a 133-Year-Old Princeton Tradition

The school’s famous Honor Code was no match for chatbot-enabled cheating.

www.theatlantic.com

Another source:

Princeton ends 133-year no-proctor exam tradition amid AI cheating concerns

Princeton University is ending its 133-year no-proctor exam tradition, with all in-person tests set to be monitored starting July 1. (AP photo)

www.wcnc.com

Yes, my friend was very sardonic about the many shortcomings of the honour code, concluding that much though she would love to be able to use it, challenging conditions - not least the development and flagrant abuse of AI - make that quite impossible.

 

[AVBeatMan]

I left school at 16 with little qualifications and started work in my father’s haulage company. After 14 years, one day I met a friend who said he was walking up to the local school to enrol in an evening class. I walked up with him and also enrolled. I ended up with an A level in Business Studies. I then took an A level in English Language. By now I’d gained the confidence to study more, so joined the Open University. It took me 6 years but I ended up with an Upper Second Class Honours degree in Social Science and Politics. Then, after driving trucks for 20 years I joined the Civil Service where I still am 24 years later. I have a wonderful job that I really enjoy. I sometimes wonder what would have happened if I hadn’t bumped into that friend 30 years ago? (He never completed the Business Studies course by the way!).

 

[Apple fanboy]

I left school at 16 with little qualifications and started work in my father’s haulage company. After 14 years, one day I met a friend who said he was walking up to the local school to enrol in an evening class. I walked up with him and also enrolled. I ended up with an A level in Business Studies. I then took an A level in English Language. By now I’d gained the confidence to study more, so joined the Open University. It took me 6 years but I ended up with an Upper Second Class Honours degree in Social Science and Politics. Then, after driving trucks for 20 years I joined the Civil Service where I still am 24 years later. I have a wonderful job that I really enjoy. I sometimes wonder what would have happened if I hadn’t bumped into that friend 30 years ago? (He never completed the Business Studies course by the way!).

I left school at 15 myself. I should have had friends like that. Instead mine were offering to meet me in the pub!

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I left school at 16 with little qualifications and started work in my father’s haulage company. After 14 years, one day I met a friend who said he was walking up to the local school to enrol in an evening class. I walked up with him and also enrolled. I ended up with an A level in Business Studies. I then took an A level in English Language. By now I’d gained the confidence to study more, so joined the Open University. It took me 6 years but I ended up with an Upper Second Class Honours degree in Social Science and Politics. Then, after driving trucks for 20 years I joined the Civil Service where I still am 24 years later. I have a wonderful job that I really enjoy. I sometimes wonder what would have happened if I hadn’t bumped into that friend 30 years ago? (He never completed the Business Studies course by the way!).

Terrific story.

All it needs is one such meeting, or, one such supportive teacher, or someone who encourages you and makes you realise that such things are possible and that you can avail of them and can succeed with them, that you can expect to complete them successfully.

My parents, - especially my mother who had been denied a university education when young (whereas her older brothers - some of whom were useless - had all been offered this opportunity), and therefore had to attend college in her forties as a mature student, when night degrees were first offered, (she was one of two women in a class of around fifty people, and, decades later, her teachers still warmly remembered her interest and enthusiasm in class) taking classes for three nights a week for three years - were most keen to ensure that we had - and were able to avail of - every possible educational opportunity.

 

[AVBeatMan]

Terrific story.

All it needs is one such meeting, or, one such supportive teacher, or someone who encourages you and makes you realise that such things are possible and that you can avail of them and can succeed with them, that you can expect to complete them successfully.

My parents, - especially my mother who had been denied a university education when young (whereas her older brothers - some of whom were useless - had all been offered this opportunity), and therefore had to attend college in her forties as a mature student, when night degrees were first offered, (she was one of two women in a class of around fifty people, and, decades later, her teachers still warmly remembered her interest and enthusiasm in class) taking classes for three nights a week for three years - were most keen to ensure that we had - and were able to avail of - every possible educational opportunity.

I should also pay tribute to my late wife and mention that I had unbelievable support from her. She was determined that I should advance myself and encouraged me all the way. She convinced me that I could change my life, work in an office (I’d never been in one) and was as good as other people. At the time we had 3 small children that we adopted so bringing them up, working full time and studying in the evenings was hard. I didn’t think so at the time as I was younger and enjoyed it anyway. My wife also coached me with my interview with the Civil Service. Sadly she died 3 years after I got the job. That was 21 years ago and still to this day she is a massive influence to me. Behind every man there’s a great woman as they say…

 

[WriteNow]

I finished a writing project yesterday. I used an old Macintosh. How old? Let's put it this way: it dates to about the time of Steve Job's funeral for System 9...

I had intended to use AppleWorks 6 to generate the final Word file, but, as it turned out, I ended up using M$ Office on a public library computer, instead. There were various factors that pushed this, which was disappointing. But in some ways it ended up necessary, since it let me fix a couple of problems. Plus--and a very big plus--it should have the best hope of opening properly.

The process of creating the document went OK. I got the document needed and it submitted successfully through the needed portal. But the experience did remind me of how much I dislike Word... And how happy I am that I don't have to use it very often. At one point, I caught myself mumbling a word that I was (I hope) inaudible, because the library, even with free speach and all that, probably wouldn't appreciate. (To be fair, I don't really particularly like any "full featured" word processor I've used. My own preference is one that balances simplicity and speed with basic features that I'll actually use. Those who were Mac users in the 1980s/early 1990s might be able to figure from my screen name here what my favorite word processor of all time is...)

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Football is on my mind.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Football is on my mind.

I can imagine.

Here I’ve put the bird food away, locked up and made Mrs AFB hot water bottle.