When do you think the decline of Apple started?

[MacBH928]

The day Jobs died...
Jobs was not a bean counter...
he cared for the end user and the experience of the end user. This is why Apple was "Different" , thats why OS X was not Windows and iMacs were not desktop Compaqs.

For Tim, only one thing is important, Stock ⬆️ = Good , Stock ⬇️=Bad

 

[Ploki]

You could point to that as the most impact that Apple ever had on the world.
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You tried to return a $2500 computer because “it was garbage” and you’re surprised the company didn’t want to oblige you?

No, because it has audio dropouts, because it had a malfunctioning keyboard and because it had display flicker.
Get of yer pretty white high horse... Apple isn't perfect, and the way they deal with professionals leaves A LOT to be desired.

 

[MattA]

Pro Machines also come with pro support, often offer no downtime options, and work for their intended professional purpose out of the box. They also have sufficient cooling to help the CPU be healthy and at full power all that uptime...

MacBook Pro's for audio don't check any of these boxes... T2 audio issues have been dragging on for more than half a year.
Some professional windows laptops actually do.

I have two 2018 Macs, the returned 15" was overpriced for what it was, and it was garbage and it took me 2 months with apple on the phone to acknowledge the problem.

You know how long it takes other professional audio companies? One day.
"It's our fault? Replacement is on the way, please pack your unit and send it to use when your new one arrives!"

Yep, I 100% agree. I was mostly discussing their Pro desktops, but in this day and age, laptops are probably part of the whole 'Pro' scenario as well. And you're right, they don't have the best pro support. They're lacking next day and same day support that many of the other companies offer with their Pro machines.

When the new Mac Pro comes out and has a huge and hefty price tag, let's hope they actually have the support to go along with it.

 

[I7guy]

The day Jobs died...
Jobs was not a bean counter...
he cared for the end user and the experience of the end user. This is why Apple was "Different" , thats why OS X was not Windows and iMacs were not desktop Compaqs.

For Tim, only one thing is important, Stock ⬆️ = Good , Stock ⬇️=Bad

The stock up/down thing is random. Or do they actually have to have customers buying their products? In fact buying to the tune of $84b last quarter. Maybe producing products people want to buy contributes to stock up = good? Just hypothesizing here.

 

[MacBH928]

Maybe producing products people want to buy contributes to stock up = good

This is the thing...what people want is not whats Apple about. The competitive advantage of Apple is the user experience and making technology easier to access.

For example, McDonalds is worth billions because people choose their products but it does not mean its a good product. If Apple is all about what people want to buy they might as well license Windows from Microsoft and slap Apple label on it...because 85% of the market choose Windows.

 

[I7guy]

This is the thing...what people want is not whats Apple about. The competitive advantage of Apple is the user experience and making technology easier to access.

For example, McDonalds is worth billions because people choose their products but it does not mean its a good product. If Apple is all about what people want to buy they might as well license Windows from Microsoft and slap Apple label on it...because 85% of the market choose Windows.

Why do people choose McDonalds? Why do people choose Windows? Why do people choose Apple? If Apple didn't provide people with what they want they might as well shut their doors.

 

[JagdTiger]

This is the thing...what people want is not whats Apple about. The competitive advantage of Apple is the user experience and making technology easier to access.

For example, McDonalds is worth billions because people choose their products but it does not mean its a good product. If Apple is all about what people want to buy they might as well license Windows from Microsoft and slap Apple label on it...because 85% of the market choose Windows.

The only reasons windows is chosen is because it’s really the only choice given them and there is not (more than before) as many games for Linux and costs less when a full computer is purchased, this also goes for android which tablets/phones cost less but is a slow os and sometimes just sits there and won’t connect to the next website...most businesses use windows, if not for that and let’s say they all choose Linux Microsoft’s product would be off the market and they would be selling xboxes instead
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Why do people choose McDonalds? Why do people choose Windows? Why do people choose Apple? If Apple didn't provide people with what they want they might as well shut their doors.

They chose McDonald’s because of price, the subliminal information being projected to ones brain mostly males which suggests the McDonald’s sign are woman’s breasts, however McDonald’s way of cooking is unhealthy because most of the items are fried instead charcoal broiled like Burger King or Dairy Queen or in one particular region steamed as in a steamed cheeseburger where all the fat goes to a bottom tray.

 

[I7guy]

The only reasons windows is chosen is because it’s really the only choice given them and there is not (more than before) as many games for Linux and costs less when a full computer is purchased, this also goes for android which tablets/phones cost less but is a slow os and sometimes just sits there and won’t connect to the next website...most businesses use windows, if not for that and let’s say they all choose Linux Microsoft’s product would be off the market and they would be selling xboxes instead
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They chose McDonald’s because of price, the subliminal information being projected to ones brain mostly males which suggests the McDonald’s sign are woman’s breasts, however McDonald’s way of cooking is unhealthy because most of the items are fried instead charcoal broiled like Burger King or Dairy Queen or in one particular region steamed as in a steamed cheeseburger where all the fat goes to a bottom tray.

So in essence McDonald's makes it money solely because of price? I can believe that, but how does that apply to Apple?

 

[JagdTiger]

So in essence McDonald's makes it money solely because of price? I can believe that, but how does that apply to Apple?

Yes and no, because now that McDonald’s delivers they seem to change prices and in fact one McDonald’s was charging 11.00 for three pancakes untill they changed it and of course sometimes they are charging 1 dollar for a cheeseburger and then the week later 2 dollars and 10 cents...who is doing the pricing?, McDonald’s is a old establishment which used to charge 10 cents a cheeseburger and 15 cents a milkshake, it’s passed down from generations and ingrained in people’s memories but of the biggest would have to be the subliminal message especially to men’s mind that if the McDonald’s sign was turned upside down it’s looks like a woman’s breast...oh, yeah, there is a clown to promote “happy meals” to kids so that’s another reason McDonald’s is the place people go too.

Apple because of design (not so much price), portability (iPad), a well known brand, resale value and for people which don’t want windows wether because it’s a software issue or a political one.

 

[I7guy]

Yes and no, because now that McDonald’s delivers they seem to change prices and in fact one McDonald’s was charging 11.00 for three pancakes untill they changed it and of course sometimes they are charging 1 dollar for a cheeseburger and then the week later 2 dollars and 10 cents...who is doing the pricing?, McDonald’s is a old establishment which used to charge 10 cents a cheeseburger and 15 cents a milkshake, it’s passed down from generations and ingrained in people’s memories but of the biggest would have to be the subliminal message especially to men’s mind that if the McDonald’s sign was turned upside down it’s looks like a woman’s breast...oh, yeah, there is a clown to promote “happy meals” to kids so that’s another reason McDonald’s is the place people go too.

Personally I don't frequent "fast food" establishments, except for salad and coffee. Haven't been to a McDonalds in literal years, and unlikely to go in the future, except for said salad.

As far as Apple, I'm trying to connect the dots between McDonalds and Apple and what people believe is the secret sauce such that apple can generate $84B in a quarter and how this is viewed as a decline. (or just the mere fact the TC took the helm is viewed as a decline)

 

[Vjosullivan]

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[JagdTiger]

Personally I don't frequent "fast food" establishments, except for salad and coffee. Haven't been to a McDonalds in literal years, and unlikely to go in the future, except for said salad.

As far as Apple, I'm trying to connect the dots between McDonalds and Apple and what people believe is the secret sauce such that apple can generate $84B in a quarter and how this is viewed as a decline. (or just the mere fact the TC took the helm is viewed as a decline)

Could be that apple was one of the first (ex Atari employees) computer companies out there and perhaps in another time apple corporation had more of a advanced design philosophy like the different colored iMacs.

 

[C DM]

but of the biggest would have to be the subliminal message especially to men’s mind that if the McDonald’s sign was turned upside down it’s looks like a woman’s breast.

That is why calculators are extremely popular among men.

 

[LizKat]

Aside from prices getting a bit too high I really don't see any decline... Lets not forget it was a couple of months ago that Apple reached the $1T mark... I guess in relation to that they have declined a bit. Many of your points aren't really that big of a deal.. You are right, the iMac Pro isn't for the common man, it wasn't intended to be. iOS to me is in a really good spot especially with iOS 12. This seems like it has been the most stable release ever. Could it use an updated version for iPads? Yeah.

Sure they aren't making routers and servers. That sucks for those that liked those products, but at the end of the day if they were actually selling well they would still be selling them today. Aside from the iPhone how have they really been innovative? I would call the AirPods and Watch innovative, but it wasn't like they came up with some brand new idea. I think the X models with Face ID are innovative, but I guess thats more just an improvement on the current models. In general they typically take a piece of tech and just make it better. Smartphones existed before iPhones but iPhone improved it. Smartwatches existed before the Apple Watch, but again the Apple Watch improved it. Tablets existed before the iPad, but again the iPad improved it.

The biggest gripe with Apple in the last few years at least has been price and I think they are reaching a point where they need to reel it in a bit. iPads and Apple Watches increased in price this year. iPhone added an even more expensive model. IMO, each device is $100 higher than it should be.

I don't even figure price is all that off the mark, all things including UI, bundled software, "ecosystem" fit and support. Sure one can run into flaws in any of those but there are remedies and Apple will make the effort to help if it can. Or so has been my experience. I admit to not starting out by alienating them when I have to call customer service. I save that for after I've been disappointed too many times. Still got that on the shelf, waiting for lo these many decades.

On prices: lol I paid $2400 for a 512k Mac in 1985. That was $800 more than the VW I was driving then had cost me. And the thing still boots, 34 years later. And ok now I'm eating rice and beans to pay for an XR while some other old car with a book value of about $400 sits in the driveway.

But that smiling Mac 512k face... I can still remember it on first boot, wrappings strewn around the kitchen floor, it's a wonder I even bothered to close the back door of the house when I'd brought it in from the car.

So I don't see how an XR for 900 bucks was a bad deal since one could practically run a city off the thing and the 512k Mac perhaps at its best was a wonderful intro to computing for the five-year-old next door at the time. (Heh, even if I did spend a whole lot of scarce leisure time trying to copy his masterworks in MacPaint while he was home sleeping at night). Thanks to Apple more than a few of my kin and neighbors' kids have gone on from fearless childhood experiments with Apple gear to becoming computer literate adults, even if they've had to settle for Windows or Android gear supplied by their benighted employers.

I think Apple's perceived problems stem primarily from expectations of ever higher profits and dismissal of the difficulties when one scales production of complex gear and its ecosystem up to volume, particularly in an age when anyone discovering a scratch on a bezel or a glitch in an app can log into Twitter and go viral with a picture of... something or other.

That's not to dismiss known issues. I myself am among those who have a long list of what's wrong with iTunes and the iOS music app, for instance, and I'm not yet a fan of a laptop with no optical drive, call me old fashioned but portable doesn't mean lugging even a skinny add-on along for the rides I go on.

But that said: fears of Apple's "decline" to me are vastly overstated. Otherwise my window shopping file folders would be filled with snaps of someone else's gear.

There was a time when the Apple Death Knell sounded over and over again, oh maybe because no one wanted the beige boxes any more, and then some scoffed at the jellybean colors of the iMac G3 (even as their sales revived the company's prospects), and then scoffed again later at the clumsy "iTunes phone" partnered with Cingular... and then...

Well... and THEN we had to shift to carping about the problems of massively popular gear like the iPod and iPhone. Stuff like having to stay up late to try to pre-order? And then there's the price of a cable or a charger (forgetting that the OS went from carrying a price tag to "free" while becoming intensely more capable with every release.

And now? Well no one forced Apple to try to improve laptop computing experience yet again. After all, the mid-2012 MBP has been so popular it was sold as a refurb by Apple with extended warranty options well after later models were offered. And no one forces us to be an early adopter of new laptops or of iPhones either. I'm still casting fond backward glances at my SE despite liking my XR for all its capabilities. But that doesn't mean that millions won't be early adopters of the next great gear intro or upgrade, and that Apple won't learn from each product upgrade something about improving the next one and the services that go with it.

The main thing I try to remember when reading stuff in online forums about Apple is that most people who are satisfied with a gear purchase don't log into some site to bother giving it a five star review. And the other thing is that the last time Apple previewed what's on its drawing board and headed for a feasibility assessment in about two more years is NEVER.

 

[theluggage]

On prices: lol I paid $2400 for a 512k Mac in 1985.

Bear in mind that Wikipedia has the IBM PC/AT at $6000 in 1984 - I'm not saying that Macs were ever cheap but the big price differential really came after 1985 when the PC clones started to take off and the previous distinction between "business" computers and cheaper "home" computers started to erode. From a business perspective, once you did the math of (say) 5 Macs sharing a laserwriter via a "plug it together and it just works" Localtalk network, Macs didn't look so bad.

However, its informative to compare the 1977 Apple II with the original 1984 Mac (probably not far off in price by the time you'd added a floppy and a monitor to the Apple II), and then compare (say) a 2011 MacBook Pro with a 2018 MacBook Pro.

In one case, 6 years saw a revolutionary change in not just the hardware, the 32x increase in RAM or the switch from 8-bit to 32-bit processing, but a fundamental rethink in how a personal computer was used, including the "invention" of things like the GUI, DTP and spreadsheets.

...in the other case - well, I was still happily using a 2011 MBP as my "daily driver" until last year. A 2018 MBP would certainly be somewhat faster, have a nicer display (and a worse keyboard) and a bit lighter, but its certainly no revolution. Sometime in the mid 90s, computers got powerful enough that they could do TV-quality non-linear video editing, or play "true" 3D games like Quake (oh, and this thing called the internet suddenly got opened up to the masses) - and, frankly, since then its just been more pixels (and more security threats).

Meanwhile, 1984 MacOS made 1984 MS DOS look like a warmed-over knockoff of 1970s CP/M (probably because it was a warmed-over knockoff of 1970s CP/M) and the Mac's 68k looked like a proper 32-bit architecture c.f. the 16-bit kludge that was the 8086. Now, well, its moot because Mac s are just PCs with minor firmware differences (and a different evil master plan for future lockdown). Now, personally, I much prefer MacOS to Windows but people shouldn't delude themselves that modern Windows isn't a viable alternative to MacOS, with advantages as well as disadvantages.

Bottom line: personal computers just aren't evolving as fast as they used to, so if manufacturers want to keep their profits going they need to start introducing planned obsolescence and chasing higher prices.

The same thing has happened - but much faster - with the iPhone: the original iPhone was so revolutionary that Apple could really charge as much as they liked for it, and it took a couple of years for the competition to come up with anything comparable. Since then, improvements have been incremental rather than revolutionary. You can now get a $200 android that delivers pretty much all of the features that made the iPhone a hit - Apple has stopped even trying to compete in the basic smartphone race, and has pinned its hopes on convincing people that they need to spend $1000 for talking poo animojis, 4k video and a camera with DSLR-quality aspirations (but none of the other advantages of a proper camera).

That's where most of the dissatisfaction comes from. Apple's particular problem is that if you want MacOS/iOS but Apple don't sell hardware that meets your needs then you are basically stuffed.

 

[LizKat]

Bottom line: personal computers just aren't evolving as fast as they used to, so if manufacturers want to keep their profits going they need to start introducing planned obsolescence and chasing higher prices.

I think the other problem is that we as human beings and therefore our educators and gear manufacturers are not sure where current generations are going with their own use of personal computing... or indeed with a lot of skills whose appeal (to future monetary concerns?) waxes and wanes with overall life experience of each successive wave of parenthood, raising and fledging of the kiddies and their entry into the adult world of work and leisure activity.

There are some weird interest-level gaps in grasp of tech and other skills among these groups from the older to the youngest:

tech consumers in their 70s, 80s now who were into computing in the 1970s-80s. Some of these are from "the silent generation", others the older boomers. They saw the rise of personal computing and over time have either stayed early adopters of new gear and entire new usage paradigms including the net, the www and social media, or else gradually become not Luddites exactly but fans of "back when it was simpler" -- where "simpler" translates variously as more utilitarian, less commercial, more serious... less viable, basically.

the later boomers who mostly (not all) became at least users of computing devices; here we have a massive range of interest and skill sets, from innovators of today's tech right on out to people who literally could not program the clock on a VCR and are now terrified, not thrilled, whenever they have to unbox a new smartphone.

their kids, the affluently parented of which grew up with PCs and mobiles in the house and could not care about how they work any more than most of us care how a toaster works (so long as it works). I call them "the meme generation" when I'm alarmed at how poorly some of them manage communication in other than emojis and pix.

and their kids, affluently parented of which now learn to code when they're 18 months old but who couldn't hand their dad the right size wrench out of a toolbox to save their life. (meanwhile engineering schools still want to see applicants whose grasp of spatial relationships did come out of handling objects in 3D from infancy because the human brain needs that experience to finish developing its own infrastructure for further learning and innovation)
​

So I dunno. Maybe the bottom line is not about evolution of product lines and maintenance of profit margins so much as evolution of the humans who are meant to continue the process in the longer term. I don't want to politicize this thread so I'm gonna leave it there.

​

 

[AngerDanger]

Apple's appeal to various costumers is like a sine wave; it declines and ascended repeatedly.

People talk about how Apple doesn't do it for them anymore or how Tim's poor allocation of resources indicate lack of vision, but people were also pissed when Jobs poured cash into the Mac instead of continuing the lower-priced and very powerful Apple ][ (GS and e) line.

People complained when the underlying architecture of Mac OS was scrapped in favor of the Unix-based OS X.

People thought the iPod was going to flop and that the iPad was a big ol' iPhone (I still do).

Call me crazy, but it seems like the decline of Apple starts whenever people dislike recent products they release.

 

[LizKat]

Apple's appeal to various costumers is like a sine wave; it declines and ascended repeatedly.

People talk about how Apple doesn't do it for them anymore or how Tim's poor allocation of resources indicate lack of vision, but people were also pissed when Jobs poured cash into the Mac instead of continuing the lower-priced and very powerful Apple ][ (GS and e) line.

People complained when the underlying architecture of Mac OS was scrapped in favor of the Unix-based OS X.

People thought the iPod was going to flop and that the iPad was a big ol' iPhone (I still do).

Call me crazy, but it seems like the decline of Apple starts whenever people dislike recent products they release.

Yah or maybe when they've shorted AAPL and are afraid Apple's next keynote or casual update of a product line (the long awaited iPad mini 5, say) will blow their trade out of the water and force a buyback at prices they don't even want to think about.

Or you know, maybe it's just the competition again, sounding the death knell before someone sounds it for them instead. Someone has to make noisy the marketplace so it doesn't sound like no one's buying anything anywhere. Is that death knell just a clearance sale launch signal or did someone actually die?

All these companies and the consumers as well have to get used to the fact that innovation of mature product lines is eventually less of a guaranteed draw --for the industry to bank on and for the consumer to buy into. Every three years should be more than good enough for a wear-and-tear upgrade to computing/mobile hardware nowadays. There's a reason extended warranties only go just so far, but that people do buy them tends to suggest they expect to use the thing that long too.

 

[theluggage]

or else gradually become not Luddites exactly but fans of "back when it was simpler" -- where "simpler" translates variously as more utilitarian, less commercial, more serious... less viable, basically.

...except, back in the day, change was happening because of rapid technical developments and new things becoming possible. OS upgrade in 1980s/1990s: virtual memory! multitasking! OS upgrade in 2010s: Dark mode! Hideous new icons! Sorry, this modern change isn't as good as the proper change we had when I was a kid.

:-)

but people were also pissed when Jobs poured cash into the Mac instead of continuing the lower-priced and very powerful Apple ][ (GS and e) line.

...and they were wrong because the IBM PC was in the process of squashing the Apple ][ like a bug. The Mac gave Apple a unique selling point.

People complained when the underlying architecture of Mac OS was scrapped in favor of the Unix-based OS X.

...and they were wrong because Classic Mac OS was two versions past its sell-by date and the replacement, Copeland, had failed spectacularly. So it was basically NeXTStep/Unix or BeOS. Meanwhile, the competition was no longer warmed-over CP/M because Microsoft now had a solid, modern, totally re-written OS in the form of Windows NT. (Personally, I switched to Macs because of Unix, and I'm sure I'm not the only one).

People thought the iPod was going to flop and that the iPad was a big ol' iPhone (I still do).

Well, Apple hardly bet the farm on the iPod (with hindsight, they should have done).... and I never understood the complaint that the iPad was just a giant iPhone or iPod Touch... I mean, I understand the comparison but what was the problem? I had an iPod Touch at the time, and a giant version sounded like a brilliant idea!

Thing is, yes, every time that Apple have done something new there have been naysayers - for about a year until they've been proven wrong. However, the new MacBook Pro designs came out in 2016 and people are still unhappy with them in 2019. There can't be much doubt that the Mac Pro situation will have caused many "pro" customers to walk away... and it does seem that the prices of the iPhone X have started to cause problems (Apple offering price cuts?).

 

[JagdTiger]

Apple's appeal to various costumers is like a sine wave; it declines and ascended repeatedly.

People talk about how Apple doesn't do it for them anymore or how Tim's poor allocation of resources indicate lack of vision, but people were also pissed when Jobs poured cash into the Mac instead of continuing the lower-priced and very powerful Apple ][ (GS and e) line.

People complained when the underlying architecture of Mac OS was scrapped in favor of the Unix-based OS X.

People thought the iPod was going to flop and that the iPad was a big ol' iPhone (I still do).

Call me crazy, but it seems like the decline of Apple starts whenever people dislike recent products they release.

The llgs was a great computer and every llgs later (whatever it would be called) would have had backward capability so all software would work with it.
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Yah or maybe when they've shorted AAPL and are afraid Apple's next keynote or casual update of a product line (the long awaited iPad mini 5, say) will blow their trade out of the water and force a buyback at prices they don't even want to think about.

Or you know, maybe it's just the competition again, sounding the death knell before someone sounds it for them instead. Someone has to make noisy the marketplace so it doesn't sound like no one's buying anything anywhere. Is that death knell just a clearance sale launch signal or did someone actually die?

All these companies and the consumers as well have to get used to the fact that innovation of mature product lines is eventually less of a guaranteed draw --for the industry to bank on and for the consumer to buy into. Every three years should be more than good enough for a wear-and-tear upgrade to computing/mobile hardware nowadays. There's a reason extended warranties only go just so far, but that people do buy them tends to suggest they expect to use the thing that long too.

Except some high end audio/video products which have a 10 year warranty,

 

[AidenShaw]

because Microsoft now had a solid, modern, totally re-written OS in the form of Windows NT

It's nice to hear that appraisal. (Although, to be honest, I've always looked at NT as VMS ported to x86, with a Win32 compatibility layer. Do you think that it is a coincidence that VMS++ is WNT?)

When NT and its children (Win2K,...) came into force in the consumer space displacing Win9X - there were many posts here which claimed that the fact that the NT terminal ran a DOS command shell was proof that NT was really DOS underneath.

It's also good to hear some of the comments from the people who've been forced to move to Windows because of Apple's stagnant hardware development that "after you adjust to Windows, you realize that it's quite good. It's different from Apple OSX, but it's not bad".

The computer is just a tool. Use the right tool for the job. And if you work in an Adobe or other high end environment like Avid - the OS underneath does not matter. What does matter is that you can have 56 cores, 3 TiB of RAM, quad CUDA GPUs, and dozens of terabytes of local disk.

 

[theluggage]

It's nice to hear that appraisal. (Although, to be honest, I've always looked at NT as VMS ported to x86, with a Win32 compatibility layer. Do you think that it is a coincidence that VMS++ is WNT?)

I know that NT was partly written by former VMS developers (who ought to know a thing or two about writing an OS) - however, using Windows NT never gave me VAX flashbacks. Someone did pour a bucket of cold water on them before they replaced the filing system with a DBMS which would have made it rather VMS-ish.

I do know that I was mainly using PCs at the time and switching from Win95 to NT5 made things far more stable.

- there were many posts here which claimed that the fact that the NT terminal ran a DOS command shell was proof that NT was really DOS underneath.

Well, to be fair, MS had already pulled that particular con with Windows 95.

I think a lot of the problems with WinNT/XP stemmed from the need to be backward-compatible with DOS-era software (or NT-era software written by DOS-era developers) that insisted on running with full admin privileges.

Likewise, Windows 10 would be a pretty solid OS if MS would just quit with all the data slurping, ads and forced updates. Oh, and did something about the confusing, overlapping mish-mash of XP-style and TIFKAM control panels.

 

[JagdTiger]

Why doesn’t apple design a new line of Macs/iMacs in those different colors and of course the iPad (in plastic) with multi colors it would sell.

 

[Falhófnir]

If analyised on a software level than it’s because apple did not promote gaming while wintel boxes did.

I don't believe Apple's business model would fit well with gaming, for gaming you really want to maximise power as much as possible within your budget. Apple is about doing more with less to a large degree and charge a significant premium for power.

 

[JagdTiger]

I don't believe Apple's business model would fit well with gaming, for gaming you really want to maximise power as much as possible within your budget. Apple is about doing more with less to a large degree and charge a significant premium for power.

Yes but even in the apple 1/2 days it was about gaming and the same with Atari and Commodoor especially with c-64 and amiga.