Hi, I read that Windows laptops will get Thunderbolt 5 this year. Razer has already released it. How likely will MacBook Pro 16" get Thunderbolt 5 along with M4 Pro/Max this year? Heard any news?
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When will MacBook Pro 16" get Thunderbolt 5?
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M4 still utilizes TB4 which makes sense as it was developed months ago. Since all M4 Macs will be based on M4 they will likely inherit TB4. Apple could of course switch it out but a major point of their M SoCs is that they can develop a chip once and then throw it in most of their devices with some modifications to get the versions with more cores and higher bandwidth. In my opinion Apple would have to find a major deficit with TB4 to justify the extra cost of modifying the M4 designs after the fact. Likely M4 Pro and Max are already finalized and being tested in M4 MBP prototypes.
Apple could have started implementing TB5 back in 2023 but then I'd expect the M4 chip in the iPad Pro to have TB5. There is always a long lead time to first manufacture the chip, then testing it in device prototypes and once everything's finalized you still got to leave at least 2-3 months of time left to manufacture enough units so you can announce the new product.
The M4 iPad Pro has manufacturing dates starting in January 2024 so M4 with TB4 surely was already in M4 iPad Pro prototypes before TB5 specs were finalized and ready to be added to M4. M3, M3 Pro, and M3 Max were released October 2023 so by that point Apple already had M4 ready internally. Maybe the Pro and Max versions as well.
They could always pull a switcheroo since it's Apple nobody really knows what they'll release or what features they'll prioritize. Historically though they've always been conservative with updating specs so there would always be a generation delay.
Apple could have started implementing TB5 back in 2023 but then I'd expect the M4 chip in the iPad Pro to have TB5. There is always a long lead time to first manufacture the chip, then testing it in device prototypes and once everything's finalized you still got to leave at least 2-3 months of time left to manufacture enough units so you can announce the new product.
The M4 iPad Pro has manufacturing dates starting in January 2024 so M4 with TB4 surely was already in M4 iPad Pro prototypes before TB5 specs were finalized and ready to be added to M4. M3, M3 Pro, and M3 Max were released October 2023 so by that point Apple already had M4 ready internally. Maybe the Pro and Max versions as well.
They could always pull a switcheroo since it's Apple nobody really knows what they'll release or what features they'll prioritize. Historically though they've always been conservative with updating specs so there would always be a generation delay.
If they don’t add tb5 support this years models will be outdated immediately.
The M4 models were designed before the TB5 spec was ready. Who even uses TB4 to its full potential now? What specific use case would benefit from TB5?
I can tell you from my experience that external NVMe SSDs can be limited by TB4 but the internal Macbook SSD is limited in capacity, to 4TB, or if you really pay for it, 8TB. At 2GB/s you could fill the 4TB version in under half an hour assuming it's mostly empty and you want to fill it up to 100% which wouldn't make much sense.
So even though devices are limited in speed by TB4 today I don't see a single workload in the real world where you wouldn't hit some other bottleneck well before you run into TB4 speed limitations.
They can still implement TB5 speeds and list that speed even though in specs it will still say TB4. They are doing that right now too, for example the 14" M3 Macbook Pro has TB4 ports that are listed as TB3 in specs. The M3 Pro/Max versions of the 14" are listed with TB4. But of course the M3 SoC has a controller with TB4 integrated and with a recent firmware update it does support dual monitor output as well so if that model were released right now Apple could have probably called them TB4 ports in the specs.
The M4 iPad Pro is still listed as TB3 in the specs. Clearly the latest M4 SoC has a TB4 controller integrated but with only a single external monitor supported Apple just can't put TB4 in the specs.
I didn't even hear about TB5 until a few weeks ago somewhere here. I always thought Apple is the first to release new versions. I even though it was invented by Apple and belonged to them.
Just bought two expensive TB4 Docks and cables a few months ago and still don't know or notice any difference to TB3.
And now they will double the speed with TB5 as they always did before but skipped it for TB4? :/
The only thing I know, USB 4 is now the same as TB4. But every USB device available is 3.1 or 3.2 Gen 1 or 2 where I also don't understand the difference for both if they are the same generation.
So the only change was that USB doesn't want to invent a new standard and just used TB3 renamed it to TB4 and called it also USB4?
🤯
Just bought two expensive TB4 Docks and cables a few months ago and still don't know or notice any difference to TB3.
And now they will double the speed with TB5 as they always did before but skipped it for TB4? :/
The only thing I know, USB 4 is now the same as TB4. But every USB device available is 3.1 or 3.2 Gen 1 or 2 where I also don't understand the difference for both if they are the same generation.
So the only change was that USB doesn't want to invent a new standard and just used TB3 renamed it to TB4 and called it also USB4?
🤯
Even if they gave TB5 what use are you even going to require that needs that amount of bandwidth?
It was an odd Intel and Apple collaboration. Intel had the patents for the technology and so Apple couldn't really do anything with it on their own without paying royalties so I think they let Intel profit from it while also leading them down the path Apple preferred with thunderbolts capabilities. Apple then transferred the thunderbolt moniker to Intel because I think at that point Intel was calling it Light Peak.
I like the fact that pc's also have it instead of it being an Apple exclusive because it just means we get a larger variety of gear that supports Thunderbolt.
Edit: Also USB 4 isn't the same as TB4. USB 4 has a minimum speed requirement of 20Gbps whereas TB4 has to have at least 32Gbps. USB 4 can also come in 40Gbps but it can only sustain those speeds with cables 1m and under. So for example a 2m cable the USB 4 Speed drops to 20Gbps. Thunderbolt can sustain its speeds for longer cables.
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Thanks for the information. TB3 sometimes had only 20Gbps on some ports or devices and there were even very short cables that also only supported that.
I have two 2m TB4 cables now that should support 40Gbps. And never saw anything called TB4 that was advertised with less speed.
But did you ever see any USB4 cable or device, that is really just USB and not TB? I never ever saw that. That's why I was wondering a new version is already there.
I searched very much for external drives with a fast connection and everything was just USB 3.1 or 3.2 Gen. 2 with 10Gbps max. and if it was faster it always had been TB2, 3 or 4 and were not really worth the price.
Also there were so many USB devices or cables I had to send back because they were advertised as 10Gbps and were only recognized as 5Gbps or disconnected every few minutes.
I don't like everything looks the same now. If it has not an USB-A connector on one side, you sometime even can't see if it's only USB 2.0 and then there is now this orange on some USB-A ports instead of blue for USB 3.0. I think it's only on 3.2 Gen. 2 ports but not all. Very confusing.
If the MacBook Pro has TB5, does that mean we don’t need to pay Apple expensive SSD upgrade cost anymore as TB5 external drives could perform like an internal SSD? I hope this will happen soon but Apple could do something on purpose to cripple the performance of external TB5 drives.
Yes. This thread is filled with a lot of nonsense. TB5 is going to open up a lot of options for storage for a lot of uses. Also it might even finally see a market for external eGPU the future. Besides obviously being able to run future monitors on high enough bandwidth for 8k and 240hz etc etc. Basically it’s future proofing and will make your expensive purchase much more worthwhile in the long run. I’m not interested in upgrading until they release it and it would be a bummer if the Mac Studio that will probably see the light first next year wouldn’t have it after hitting the market almost 2 years after tb5 was first announced.
5k display with ProMotion.
Short answer "no" - but any USB4-only device would offer USB4's "Thunderbolt-like" 20/40Gbps speeds, it's not like a "USB-C but not TB" port that only supports USB 3.2 speeds... and USB4 "Hubs" are required to support TB.
AFAIK, and helped by the wisdom of Wikipedia, it's like this:
USB4 is based on the same 20/40Gbps protocol as Thunderbolt 3 - not USB 3.2, The USB4 spec includes full interoperability with Thunderbolt devices as an option (only compulsory for TB4 hubs - not hosts or peripherals). It also adds new features not present in TB3, including hubs with multiple downstream USB4/TB ports. Unlike USB 3.2/3.1 - which "embraced and extended" (and, just for spite, re-named) previous USB versions, USB4 implements USB 2/3 by "tunneling" USB 2/3 data (i.e. wrapping it up as USB4 data packets) from the USB controller on the host to the controller in the peripheral/hub, much like the way TB deals with PCIe and DisplayPort - which is much more efficiant way of sharing bandwidth than the USB-C method of dedicating specific wires to specific protocols, and cheaper than the TB3 method of using a PCIe->USB 3 controller in the peripheral. However, USB4 ports still have to support the legacy way of doing things - sending USB 2/3 over specific wires - too.
Thunderbolt 4 basically is an implementation of USB4 - but with higher minimum requirements and a lot of the optional parts of USB4 made compulsory + an Intel certification program. The practical advantages over TB3 are hubs with multiple downstream TB and USB 2/3 tunnelling.
(That leads to the situation on M1/M2 MacBooks where the specs have to say "TB3/USB4" rather than "TB4" since they don't meet the additional TB4 requirement of supporting dual displays - whereas the M2 Minis, with identical CPUs, can call it TB4. Presumably the software patch that enabled dual displays in clamshell mode came too late for the M3 MacBooks to be certified as TB4.)
USB4 2.0 (oh for crying out loud, what are the USB-IF on?!) is USB4 with a new 80Gbps top speed and other improvements.
Thunderbolt 5 is to USB4 2.0 as TB4 is to USB4 - a USB4 2.0 implementation with higher minimum specs & certification program.
The USB4 2.0 standard was published in 2022 (and Apple would have been an insider) so it is not impossible that the controllers in M4 chips might support it. That would mean that it is also not impossible that M4 machines could either have "proper" TB5 ports or "TB4/USB4 2.0" ports that were mostly equivalent to TB5 but fell short on display support - and are only limited to TB3/USB4 by the capabilities of iPadOS.
Of course, "not impossible" doesn't mean "will" - the USB4 controllers on the M4 are either 2.0 capable or not and, at the moment, only someone with inside info from Apple could say for sure.
A Pro Display XDR with 7k/8k at 120Hz
Apple adopted Thunderbolt :
T - 1 essentially simultaneously with its announcement.
T - 2 about four months after its announcement.
T - 3 approximately four months after its announcement.
T - 4 roughly four months after its announcement.
Note that Thunderbolt 4 was announced by Intel in July 2020. The M1 was introduced in November 2020. The M4 came almost 4 years after T-4 was announced, and T-5 was announced on May 8, 2023
Apple should introduce T-5 with their M4 notebooks, because its already been 15 months since T-5 was announced. I doubt Apple is as backward as you presume.
Quote:
Thunderbolt 1 was announced by Intel in February 2011. Apple introduced Thunderbolt 1 with the release of the MacBook Pro in February 2011. So, Apple adopted Thunderbolt 1 essentially simultaneously with its announcement.
Thunderbolt 2 was announced by Intel in June 2013. Apple introduced Thunderbolt 2 with the release of the updated MacBook Pro in October 2013. This means Apple adopted Thunderbolt 2 about four months after its announcement.
Thunderbolt 3 was announced by Intel in June 2015. Apple introduced Thunderbolt 3 with the release of the 2016 MacBook Pro in October 2016. So, Apple adopted Thunderbolt 3 approximately four months after its announcement.
Apple introduced Thunderbolt 4 support with the launch of its M1-equipped Macs, which debuted in November 2020. The official announcement of Thunderbolt 4 by Intel was made in July 2020. So, Apple adopted Thunderbolt 4 roughly four months after its announcement.
Thunderbolt 5 was announced by Intel on May 8, 2023
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For me it always sounded like USB4 was just another name for TB4 and they took over the complete technology. But it seems to be getting complicated more and more with this USB-C connections that all look the same.
Maybe they should invent a new connector type just for TB5, to get rid of that chaos, at least for new stuff?
Is an M4(Pro/Max/Ultra) even able to drive the same amount of TB5 ports as an M2/3(Pro/Max/Ultra) with TB4?
There was a time people used external GPUs with TB3. Is it theoretically possible to add any PCIe card to TB with an external slot or something like that if there are PCIe drivers? Should that work with the cards you can put into a Mac Pro now?
Is Thunderbolt just external PCIe? Or does it only work similar?
I lost all my knowledge about this stuff. Last PC with slots I remember had standard PCI and AGP for a graphics card and everything before had PCI only, a combination of PCI, VLB and ISA or just PCI and ISA, bfore VLB and ISA or ISA only. EISA existed too, but I never got hold on that. My first PC was even only 8 Bit ISA.
Maybe they should invent a new connector type just for TB5, to get rid of that chaos, at least for new stuff?
Is an M4(Pro/Max/Ultra) even able to drive the same amount of TB5 ports as an M2/3(Pro/Max/Ultra) with TB4?
There was a time people used external GPUs with TB3. Is it theoretically possible to add any PCIe card to TB with an external slot or something like that if there are PCIe drivers? Should that work with the cards you can put into a Mac Pro now?
Is Thunderbolt just external PCIe? Or does it only work similar?
I lost all my knowledge about this stuff. Last PC with slots I remember had standard PCI and AGP for a graphics card and everything before had PCI only, a combination of PCI, VLB and ISA or just PCI and ISA, bfore VLB and ISA or ISA only. EISA existed too, but I never got hold on that. My first PC was even only 8 Bit ISA.
T-5 would be backward compatible.
So a T-3 PCI external, would work ... as long as the card inside the PCI external T-3 is supported. For instance my Classic Mac Pro has an internal Highpoint PCI RAID card in it. The card will work when connected to a T-3 or T-4 Mac. But its speed will be less than in the old Mac, because Thunderbolt 3 (or 4) is a bottleneck. A T-5 equipped Mac would work too. But if the external device with the PCI slot was T-3 (or T-4 as they perform the same for such devices), the bottleneck would not be the T-5 in the Mac (not here yet). The botteneck would be the T-3 (4) in the external device. So a T-5 equipped Mac running an external T-3(4) device will not be faster. You'd need an external T-5 device to get a speed benefit.
T-5 externals will I imagine cost a fortune for some time. Just as Firewire devices cost the earth, then Thunderbolt devices cost the earth compared to USB-C devices ... but if they come, they will likely overcome current T-3(4) device connection bottlenecks. Or at least approach halving those bottlenecks (because T-5 is around twice the speed).
The whole point of the type C connection is that things that look like they work (due to the adpater size & shape) will work. But depending on what type of device on both ends, they will have differing speeds (ie bottlenecks).
Different plugs for different devices is the old days. And Europe forced Apple to drop their Lightning adapter for their iPads / phones etc. because they said type C plugs or nothing. Its a better thing but as usual it benefits the buyer to check what version the buyer is going to get. 'Coz yeh they look the same ...
I saw the guys on Mythbusters check out Type C cables. Apple's T-3 cable is very costly. Similar spec ones can be one tenth the price. They scanned the internals of the plugs, and looked at the tiny motherboards inside the plugs, the wiring, how many wires and connections, and they tested 'em too. They said for people needing the performance (ie the cable itself could be the bottleneck) the Apple cable was worthwhile.
First rule of computing issues is that 99% of failures are the network. So first check that its plugged in! And go from there ...
So a T-3 PCI external, would work ... as long as the card inside the PCI external T-3 is supported. For instance my Classic Mac Pro has an internal Highpoint PCI RAID card in it. The card will work when connected to a T-3 or T-4 Mac. But its speed will be less than in the old Mac, because Thunderbolt 3 (or 4) is a bottleneck. A T-5 equipped Mac would work too. But if the external device with the PCI slot was T-3 (or T-4 as they perform the same for such devices), the bottleneck would not be the T-5 in the Mac (not here yet). The botteneck would be the T-3 (4) in the external device. So a T-5 equipped Mac running an external T-3(4) device will not be faster. You'd need an external T-5 device to get a speed benefit.
T-5 externals will I imagine cost a fortune for some time. Just as Firewire devices cost the earth, then Thunderbolt devices cost the earth compared to USB-C devices ... but if they come, they will likely overcome current T-3(4) device connection bottlenecks. Or at least approach halving those bottlenecks (because T-5 is around twice the speed).
The whole point of the type C connection is that things that look like they work (due to the adpater size & shape) will work. But depending on what type of device on both ends, they will have differing speeds (ie bottlenecks).
Different plugs for different devices is the old days. And Europe forced Apple to drop their Lightning adapter for their iPads / phones etc. because they said type C plugs or nothing. Its a better thing but as usual it benefits the buyer to check what version the buyer is going to get. 'Coz yeh they look the same ...
I saw the guys on Mythbusters check out Type C cables. Apple's T-3 cable is very costly. Similar spec ones can be one tenth the price. They scanned the internals of the plugs, and looked at the tiny motherboards inside the plugs, the wiring, how many wires and connections, and they tested 'em too. They said for people needing the performance (ie the cable itself could be the bottleneck) the Apple cable was worthwhile.
First rule of computing issues is that 99% of failures are the network. So first check that its plugged in! And go from there ...
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https://www.asus.com/accessories/do...d-cable/asus-master-thunderbolt-5-dock-dc510/ Asus Thunderbolt 5 dock
www.owc.com
Not here yet but 2024 is the year. They note that T-5 allows 80 MB/s data speeds, but for video, if its demanded (as in an 8K monitor) T-5 causes one of the 4 channels to travel back to the computer at 40 MB/s, but provides 3 channels and therefor 120 MB/s video transfer speed.
This stuff won't be cheap but it will be cheaper than buying Apple internal drive capacity.
Thunderbolt 5 is Officially on the Way. How the Best Port is Getting Even Better
Intel has officially announced Thunderbolt 5, an update to the industry-leading specification that will double bandwidth and more.
Not here yet but 2024 is the year. They note that T-5 allows 80 MB/s data speeds, but for video, if its demanded (as in an 8K monitor) T-5 causes one of the 4 channels to travel back to the computer at 40 MB/s, but provides 3 channels and therefor 120 MB/s video transfer speed.
This stuff won't be cheap but it will be cheaper than buying Apple internal drive capacity.
Keep in mind the thunderbolt controller is now part of the SoC. Apple cannot introduce a new Thunderbolt with their M4 Macs even if they wanted to now because these ports are wired straight to the SoC and the M4 chip has a TB4 controller. The M4 iPad Pros had manufacturing dates going all the way back to December 2023, which means the iPad Pro M4 was already in its final phases being tested Summer 2023... which means it must have gotten the final M4 version somewhere around that time too...
...which in turn means that when TB5 was announced May 2023 the M4 chip was likely a done deal already with its TB4 controller. By the time Apple releases M4 Macs the M5 SoC will be in testing already too. We are always trailing behind one generation really and only get the latest tech once it's been tested and integrated into a product and then it can still take half a year of manufacturing said product before Apple even announces it.
When TB5 does finally make it to Mac, I can see it initially be offered on larger SoC M chips first (Max, Ultra, Extreme?) for a couple of generations before it migrating to the simpler lower power M chips.
What are you hoping to utilize with Tb5 that you can't right now with Tb4? Besides bragging rights, what are some realistic real world usages that people on Macs even need this spec bump?