Which macOS to choose?

[whiteboard]

P.S. Just got back from the AT&T store and was able to download Big Sur on my secondary laptop which now has Mojave on it.

What a week of chaos!!

Am still researching, but will likely go with Big Sur and upgrade my apps to 64-bit later this summer.

In the mean time, I guess I won't be able to do much online at the library I'm at right now because of my issues with macOS Sierra and my AT&T hotspot. (At least I can use my mobile hotspot if I drive a few miles away from here, or use this new AT&T store.)

 

[iluvmacs99]

Okay.

What is a "neural network"?

It is Apple's Neural Engine which helps in machine learning which is show-cased in iOS 15. Take a photo that has text in it and you can translate that into text. Neat. Take a photo that has a foreign language on it and then translate it to a language you understand. Same with speech translation. Very handy when you travel to foreign places and don't quite speak or grasp the language used there. So that's neat and useful for me.

Do you own a MacBook too?

So you have a Windows 10 PC and you can run Android and Linux on that as part of virtualization?

If so, that is amazing.

Does that mean you can make Android cellular phone calls from your Windows PC?

I have a MacBook Air as well. I use the PC mainly for work and an Android emulator so I can run similar social media apps that I have on the iPhone and make uploading stuff on my PC into social media more direct. I never actually made calls using the Android emulator, but then come to think of it, maybe I should give it a try.

 

[LotusLord]

I'm not a portable Mac user but I can tell you I've had issues on iOS with the setting of auto login on public/hotel wifi connections. I wonder if there is something similar on Mac OS. When that setting is on for a network it simply never proceeds beyond a the login page.

 

[iluvmacs99]

I'm not a portable Mac user but I can tell you I've had issues on iOS with the setting of auto login on public/hotel wifi connections. I wonder if there is something similar on Mac OS. When that setting is on for a network it simply never proceeds beyond a the login page.

Which iOS version are you on when logging in and which browser did you use?

 

[LotusLord]

Which iOS version are you on when logging in and which browser did you use?

This was 14.5.1. Haven't tried since upgrading to 14.6

 

[iluvmacs99]

This was 14.5.1. Haven't tried since upgrading to 14.6

Have you tried this below? If not, can you try it the next time you're in a hotel that has this stubborn auto-login issues.

Use captive Wi-Fi networks on your iPhone or iPad - Apple Support (CA)

Learn how to use captive Wi-Fi networks, which are public networks that you subscribe to or pay for.

support.apple.com

 

[Boyd01]

To me, that's also a deal breaker for Big Sur, because I have some paid 32bit apps that I paid a pretty sum for it and I am not motivated to pay again to be 64bit Intel compatible. At least if I pay again, I will pay for the Apple Silicon native version when I get the Apple Silicon MB Air in the near future. I've actually been contemplating Parallels for Mac and since it can run either Windows and Linux in a virtualized window

I am using Catalina and run Windows 10, MacOS Mountain Lion and Sierra in virtual machines with Parallels on my 2018 Mini. One year into this setup and really happy with it. It has completely replaced my real Windows PC and two old Macs that ran those legacy operating systems. It is much faster than those old physical machines and the Parallels integration with the host operating system is a huge advantage.

Mojave wouldn't do anything for me here because my old Mac software is too old to run under it anyway. But I do run Mojave on a separate Mini that is a dedicated media server because I want to use iTunes on it.

 

[iluvmacs99]

I am using Catalina and run Windows 10, MacOS Mountain Lion and Sierra in virtual machines with Parallels on my 2018 Mini. One year into this setup and really happy with it. It has completely replaced my real Windows PC and two old Macs that ran those legacy operating systems. It is much faster than those old physical machines and the Parallels integration with the host operating system is a huge advantage.

Mojave wouldn't do anything for me here because my old Mac software is too old to run under it anyway. But I do run Mojave on a separate Mini that is a dedicated media server because I want to use iTunes on it.

When I think of Parallels for Mac, I somehow always think of you somehow. After seeing macOS12 and that it dropped support for my Macbook Air 2014, I decided to install Ubuntu 20.04 under VirtualBox so I can use Brave and have the latest security updates till 2025 while still enjoying my Mac and Mojave and save up for the new M series Air to replace my current Air in a few years time. Running virtual machines on my Win 10 PC is really helpful to me as well and I'm also very happy with it without needing an actual Android and Ubuntu machines which run inside my PC. It's definitely not as elegant and well implemented integration wise as Parallels and always wanted to get it, but Virtualbox is free and that is its appealing nature.

 

[whiteboard]

I am using Catalina and run Windows 10, MacOS Mountain Lion and Sierra in virtual machines with Parallels on my 2018 Mini. One year into this setup and really happy with it. It has completely replaced my real Windows PC and two old Macs that ran those legacy operating systems. It is much faster than those old physical machines and the Parallels integration with the host operating system is a huge advantage.

Mojave wouldn't do anything for me here because my old Mac software is too old to run under it anyway. But I do run Mojave on a separate Mini that is a dedicated media server because I want to use iTunes on it.

I don't understand why people use Parallels with mutiple OS's.

Can you please explain your use-case?

I mean I understand why someone would use virtualization to switch between Windows and Linux and macOS. But how does it help you with different versions of macOS?

For instance, every time you want to listen to music, you have to log out of your modern macOS and log in under say Catalina?

This seems like back in the old days where operating systems couldn't multi-task, and for instance, you would have to quit out of a spreadsheet in order to use a word processor.

Because anyone in the last 25-30 years expects to be able to listen to iTunes while surfing the Internet while checking e-mail, how does Parallels help in that scenario?

Just curious.


Also, how do you back all of this up?

Can you use Carbon Copy Cloner to capture this sophisticated setup so if something goes South, that you don't spend the next month rebuilding 5 computers in one?

 

[Boyd01]

I'm sorry, but you just don't understand this and I'm not sure that a quick response will be enough, but I'll try. My 2018 Mini is running Catalina natively. I don't have to "log out" of anything to listen to music, I can do that with the standard Catalina Music app (the replacement for iTunes). But, in my case, I don't have any music files on this Mac, they are all on a separate Mini that is a dedicated media server (running iTunes under Mojave). It can easily be accessed as a shared library. And, of course, I can also access all my iTunes purchases in the cloud using the Music app. But most of the time, I don't use this Mac at all for listening to music, that's what the media server is for. It's connected to my stereo system with speakers in different parts of the house. I can also access video directly on the server, via two Apple TV's, an iPhone, iPad and other Macs.

I really thought I'd explained the rest already, but one more time.... I previously had a Windows PC that I used for some specialized software. I also had an 2012 Mini that I could dual-boot into either Mountain Lion or Sierra. This was necessary to run some very expensive old software I can't afford to replace. Specifically, I used FileMaker Pro 11 on Sierra. This is not compatible with Catalina and beyond and would cost about $550 to upgrade. The old version meets my needs, I'm retired on a fixed income and don't want to spend money for no good reason.

I also have a CAD program, Vectworks 2008, that won't run on anything newer than Mountain Lion. It would cost about $1500 to upgrade. Then there's a 3d Modelling program, Strata3d cx, that won't run on anything newer than Mountain Lion. It would also cost about $1500 to replace. All these programs actually run faster in my virtual machines than they ran natively on the old hardware. Same thing with my Windows software.

Virtual Machines are stored in files. Parallels automatically takes "snapshots" of these so you can easily revert to previous configurations. And the VM files are backed up along with everything else when I do a Carbon Copy clone. So there is no need to "spend the next month" restoring them if needed. I could just boot into my CC Clone and use them right away.

This is all substantially easier than maintaining three separate machines (one for Windows, one for legacy Mac plus a new Mac). It is also much more productive since it all runs on one machine where I can easily copy/paste between the VM's instead of transferring files over a network. Also great to clear two extra computer off my desk. I never imagined this would work so well, it's a huge improvement in my workflow and after one year, I'm still delighted.

 

[whiteboard]

I'm sorry, but you just don't understand this and I'm not sure that a quick response will be enough, but I'll try.

Sorry, I have no experience with virtualization, but was trying to learn from what you and @iluvmacs99 are doing.

Virtual Machines are stored in files. Parallels automatically takes "snapshots" of these so you can easily revert to previous configurations. And the VM files are backed up along with everything else when I do a Carbon Copy clone. So there is no need to "spend the next month" restoring them if needed. I could just boot into my CC Clone and use them right away.

Okay, so CCC works with virtualization. That is all I was asking as far as backing things up.

This is all substantially easier than maintaining three separate machines (one for Windows, one for legacy Mac plus a new Mac). It is also much more productive since it all runs on one machine where I can easily copy/paste between the VM's instead of transferring files over a network. Also great to clear two extra computer off my desk. I never imagined this would work so well, it's a huge improvement in my workflow and after one year, I'm still delighted.

That was what I was asking...

So you can run multiple things at the same time?

For instance, could you be working on your AutoCAD stuff in a virtual Mountain Lion while simultaneously listening to songs in virtual Sierra?

I thought you had to log out of one virtual OS and log into another virtual OS to do things. If so, you would save hardware, but it would still all be siloed. That is what I was trying to understand.

It sounds like you are saying you could easily copy a file in one virtual OS to another virtual OS, but can you work in multiple virtual OS's all at the same time?

 

[Boyd01]

No, you have the wrong idea about virtual machines. What you describe sounds like actually booting the Mac into a different operating system, such as Windows under Bootcamp. Parallels runs just like any other Mac app. I can have Windows 10, MacOS Moutain Lion and MacOS Sierra all running simultaneously in separate windows. From the user standpoint, it appears exactly the same as if all my software is running natively under Catalina. They all access the same files on the same disk, which is another huge advantage. And if I double-click on a document created in a Windows app, the VM automatically starts and it opens right up.

But from what you've told us, your Mac usage is very basic. Doubt there would be any advantage to running VM's in your case, the only reason I brought up MacOS VM's was because @iluvmacs99 said he was running Mojave to use legacy Mac software. Depending on the program, this can be accomplished in Catalina or Big Sur with a VM.

 

[iluvmacs99]

I'll summarize my VM use case on both my Win 10PC and Macbook Air which is really not too dissimilar to @Boyd01 case with Parallels.

But first, let's summarize what a VM is. A VM is basically a program that allows you to create a functioning virtual machine on a host machine. This virtual machine acts like a real machine but without the hardware and runs side by side and independently with the host machine. A host machine is like a mothership; it's your main computer. What a VM does is to allow you to run many different types of OS to leverage the strengths of each OS as well as the programs that run on each OS. As good use case for you @whiteboard would be to install Big Sur as your main OS and then install Parallels and install a clone of your Sierra that you are running now with all your precious 32bit apps that won't run on Big Sur. You get the advantage of Big Sur with security updates and renewed SSL certificates so you can always connect to your library's WIFI and pass its splash screen PLUS you have the ability to listen to iTunes and do VOIP inside a virtual Sierra machine. If you want, you can even upgrade towards Monterey next year once it's ironed out and still keep your copy of Sierra. In essence, you are killing 2 birds with 1 stone so to speak. So with Parallels, you are able to get Big Sur or Monterey to co-exist with Sierra both running together concurrently on the same machine.

The downside to running 2 machines is that, you need to provision RAM for each machine, including your host. So if you're running Big Sur and Sierra together, the minimum RAM you need to have is 8Gb, but the more RAM you have the better it functions. I have 32Gb of RAM on my PC and I consider that a bare minimum if you plan to run 2 OS plus your host OS. The cut and paste and drag and drop features on both Parallels and VirtualBox means that you don't have to transfer files over the network. It's just a simple drag and drop. Sort of what I do with Airdrop between my iPhone and Macbook Air which is replicated on my Win 10 PC and virtualizing Android. I also virtualize Linux, which is Ubuntu, so that I can run a mail server with virus protection as well as a copy of WPS Office Suite which looks and works like Microsoft Office so I can work on Word and Excel documents without paying the Microsoft fees. All of that with just 1 host machine.

I just recently installed Ubuntu 20.04 in VirtualBox under Mojave and since I plan to keep Mojave, having Ubuntu means that my SSL certs will be updated until 2025 and it's free. I can log on to sites that rejects Sierra no problem under Ubuntu via Brave browser. Plus I have a running mail server as well as a working copy of WPS Office that works better than LibreOffice under Ubuntu. And I can drag and drop and cut and paste between Ubuntu and Mojave, listen to music and get alerts that new mail had came. So what's not to like?

Carbon Copy Cloner takes care of those virtual machine files and on the PC, I use Macrium Reflect which works in a similar way as CCC.

 

[Boyd01]

As good use case for you @whiteboard would be to install Big Sur as your main OS and then install Parallels and install a clone of your Sierra that you are running now with all your precious 32bit apps that won't run on Big Sur.

I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the only 32-bit app @whiteboard mentioned was a VPN which would make sense to update and wouldn't be expensive. In my case, it would cost thousands of dollars to update old apps and offer very little benefit. If it weren't for those, I'd just move on to the latest and greatest new MacOS. For example, I could also run my old copy of MS Office and Adobe Photoshop in a VM. But I just upgraded to the current cloud versions of these. That was relatively inexpensive and a worthwhile upgrade.

 

[iluvmacs99]

I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the only 32-bit app @whiteboard mentioned was a VPN which would make sense to update and wouldn't be expensive. In my case, it would cost thousands of dollars to update old apps and offer very little benefit. If it weren't for those, I'd just move on to the latest and greatest new MacOS. For example, I could also run my old copy of MS Office and Adobe Photoshop in a VM. But I just upgraded to the current cloud versions of these. That was relatively inexpensive and a worthwhile upgrade.

I think @whiteboard mentioned his VOIP software to be the one that won't work past Sierra. He uses iVPN which I think is Big Sur compatible already. Also iTunes is no longer available under Big Sur and I'm partial to iTunes myself.

 

[Boyd01]

I am definitely sticking with Mojave and iTunes on my media server. But on my primary Mac, the new Music app seems to be fine, it connects to the server and recognizes my shared playlists. The new TV app is a different story however, it does not recognize any of my video playlists on the server, they show up as empty. But the same shared playlists work fine on my two AppleTV's.

 

[whiteboard]

No, you have the wrong idea about virtual machines. What you describe sounds like actually booting the Mac into a different operating system, such as Windows under Bootcamp.

Well, in the early days of virtualization, isn't that how things worked?

Okay, so I was wrong. Thanks for teaching me something new!

Parallels runs just like any other Mac app. I can have Windows 10, MacOS Mountain Lion and MacOS Sierra all running simultaneously in separate windows. From the user standpoint, it appears exactly the same as if all my software is running natively under Catalina.

That sounds really powerful.

They all access the same files on the same disk, which is another huge advantage. And if I double-click on a document created in a Windows app, the VM automatically starts and it opens right up.

How does that work if different OS's use different disk formats?

For instance, Windows uses FAT32, right? And newer macs us APFS and Mountain Lion maybe uses HFS+.

So how does that all work?

But from what you've told us, your Mac usage is very basic.

I don't think I'm a basic user, but I try to keep things simple on my Mac. ;-)

Doubt there would be any advantage to running VM's in your case, the only reason I brought up MacOS VM's was because @iluvmacs99 said he was running Mojave to use legacy Mac software. Depending on the program, this can be accomplished in Catalina or Big Sur with a VM.

Well, at the heart of this thread was my concerns about no longer being able to user macOD Sierra as my OS.

So let's apply what you are talking about to my case...

Let's say, hypothetically, that I couldn't find a reasonable replacement for my 32-bit Zoiper VOIP app that I currently run on macOS Sierra.

But let's say that I decided to upgrade to macOS Big Sur because that would allow me to access the library's free Wi-Fi.

Also, let's say that I decided that switching to macOS Big Sur had merits because of better security and using modern 64-bit apps.

Finally, just thought of this, let's say that I wanted to have a backup copy of Audacity on Mountain Lion because I prefer the older app version as compared to the newer version I use in macOS Sierra.

Wouldn't virtualization be good if those were my needs?

(I'm always looking to learn new things and grow, and that is why I signed up for the MacRumors forums - to expand my skill set!) ;-)

 

[Boyd01]

This is one of the clever features in Parallels, it mounts your MacOS volumes as if they were network drives on Windows. So, no need to worry about the formatting when used this way. If you want to treat a disk as though it were directly connected to the Windows VM (which you can do), then it would need to be formatted for Windows.

Your example just has too many "let's says", sorry. You would need to research specific software to see if it runs acceptably in a VM. For example, I think a program like Final Cut Pro won't work, due to the way it uses video. Not sure about Logic Pro, it might also be a problem.

I don't know anything about your software, it might be fine, just don't know. You can download the free trial of Parallels and find out if you're really interested. In my case, I could find very little that was helpful in setting up MacOS virtual machines. Spent a couple frustrating days figuring it all out for myself, but it all works perfectly now and was well worth the effort, considering the cost of replacing my legacy software.

Generally, I'd say that if there's an acceptable alternative for some software, and if the cost isn't too high, then a virtual machine will be more trouble than it's worth.

 

[whiteboard]

I'll summarize my VM use case on both my Win 10PC and Macbook Air which is really not too dissimilar to @Boyd01 case with Parallels.

But first, let's summarize what a VM is. A VM is basically a program that allows you to create a functioning virtual machine on a host machine. This virtual machine acts like a real machine but without the hardware and runs side by side and independently with the host machine. A host machine is like a mothership; it's your main computer.

So when you run Parallels, which virtual environment applies to your Macs hardware?

If I had a virtual machine for Mountain Lion, Sierra, Big Sur and Windows 10 and I wanted to connect to my library's free Wi-Fi, and so I clicked on the Wi-Fi icon in the menu bar, which environment would be controlling that?

Or if I adjusted my speaker volume? Or went to change System Preferences?

What a VM does is to allow you to run many different types of OS to leverage the strengths of each OS as well as the programs that run on each OS. As good use case for @whiteboard would be to install Big Sur as your main OS and then install Parallels and install a clone of your Sierra that you are running now with all your precious 32bit apps that won't run on Big Sur. You get the advantage of Big Sur with security updates and renewed SSL certificates so you can always connect to your library's WIFI and pass its splash screen PLUS you have the ability to listen to iTunes and do VOIP inside a virtual Sierra machine.

I think you read my mind before my last post!

For something like iVPN, does that run for the over-arching machine, or does it just apply to each virtual machine?

How could I protect myself so I am always using iVPN regardless of the environment?

And as I asked above, how do things like Carbon Copy Cloner (CCC) work when they apply to the entire computer?

The downside to running 2 machines is that, you need to provision RAM for each machine, including your host. So if you're running Big Sur and Sierra together, the minimum RAM you need to have is 8Gb, but the more RAM you have the better it functions. I have 32Gb of RAM on my PC and I consider that a bare minimum if you plan to run 2 OS plus your host OS.

Yeah, I only have 16GB of RAM.

The cut and paste and drag and drop features on both Parallels and VirtualBox means that you don't have to transfer files over the network. It's just a simple drag and drop. Sort of what I do with Airdrop between my iPhone and Macbook Air which is replicated on my Win 10 PC and virtualizing Android. I also virtualize Linux, which is Ubuntu, so that I can run a mail server with virus protection as well as a copy of WPS Office Suite which looks and works like Microsoft Office so I can work on Word and Excel documents without paying the Microsoft fees. All of that with just 1 host machine.

If I had an mp3 that was created or saved in Windows, and then I dragged it to Sierra, would that song play? (Many many years ago I recall that you couldn't play Windows music and movies on a Mac and visa-versa.

I just recently installed Ubuntu 20.04 in VirtualBox under Mojave and since I plan to keep Mojave, having Ubuntu means that my SSL certs will be updated until 2025 and it's free. I can log on to sites that rejects Sierra no problem under Ubuntu via Brave browser. Plus I have a running mail server as well as a working copy of WPS Office that works better than LibreOffice under Ubuntu. And I can drag and drop and cut and paste between Ubuntu and Mojave, listen to music and get alerts that new mail had came. So what's not to like?

Does Parallels - or any virtualization software - site on top of a base OS, or do the OS's sit on top of Parallels?

 

[Boyd01]

Parallels is a Mac app and the virtual machines run inside that app. If something goes really wrong, you can force quit Parallels and all your VM's will quit. Obviously, that should only be done as a last resort since it's like "pulling the plug" on a real computer.

I don't use VPN's and don't know what issues would be involved with virtualization there.

As earlier stated, virtual machines are stored in files and get backed up just like any other file in Carbon Copy (unless you intentionally exclude them). I have time machine set to ignore them, because everytime a few bytes change in the VM, time machine would backup the entire virtual disk. This started filling up my time machine disk.

mp3 files work in iTunes so you should be able to drag and drop them between folders on VM's.

 

[iluvmacs99]

So when you run Parallels, which virtual environment applies to your Macs hardware?

If I had a virtual machine for Mountain Lion, Sierra, Big Sur and Windows 10 and I wanted to connect to my library's free Wi-Fi, and so I clicked on the Wi-Fi icon in the menu bar, which environment would be controlling that?

Or if I adjusted my speaker volume? Or went to change System Preferences?

@Boyd01 uses Parallels, whereas I use VirtualBox. Similar concepts.

Easiest way is to visualize your host computer running a host OS is an aircraft carrier. Parallels or Virtualbox provides a platform of resources (like fuel, ammunition, spare parts etc) and a runway for the aircrafts on the carrier. And the different OS are like aircrafts that can perform a variety of mission roles. You can have helicopters, jets, propeller, tankers etc and these act as the guest OSes under Parallels/VirtualBox. If Big Sur is the host OS, then it is the aircraft carrier that provides all the resources the guest OS (planes) need running under Parallels (runaway and platform for fuel/ammo/spare parts) such as WIFI, sound, mouse, keyboard etc.. The guest OS does not take over the host computer much like an aircraft on the aircraft carrier doesn't take over the carrier nor can it function all by itself without the mothership in the middle of a big ocean.

So the difference is that a host OS is the main OS that runs on the computer. Parallels simply provide a platform for any guest OS to run side by side with the host OS by virtualizing anything the guest OS needs like sound, WIFI, ethernet, printers, keyboard, mouse etc so the programs inside the guest OS can work like iVPN, VOIP etc..

I think you read my mind before my last post!

For something like iVPN, does that run for the over-arching machine, or does it just apply to each virtual machine?

How could I protect myself so I am always using iVPN regardless of the environment?

And as I asked above, how do things like Carbon Copy Cloner (CCC) work when they apply to the entire computer?

It applies to each virtual machine, because each virtual machine is a unique enclosed environment and so you should install iVPN in either the host environment or guest environment where you need privacy and encryption.

Carbon Copy Cloner clones the drive, so whatever virtualized files you have on the drive you're cloning will be cloned.

If I had an mp3 that was created or saved in Windows, and then I dragged it to Sierra, would that song play? (Many many years ago I recall that you couldn't play Windows music and movies on a Mac and visa-versa.

If you have VLC on the Mac, you can pretty much play anything created from Windows 10. We've gone a long way from the past where there were issues with sound and video compatibility. Today, that's no longer an issue.

Does Parallels - or any virtualization software - site on top of a base OS, or do the OS's sit on top of Parallels?

In virtualization, we use 2 terms. Host OS and Guest OS.

So if you install Big Sur on your MBP, then Big Sur is the "Host OS". Parallels/VirtualBox allows you to run "Guest OSes" side by side of the "Host OS". Parallels is just a program that provides a virtual environment for a Guest OS to run independently but concurrently with the Host OS. You can't run Big Sur and Sierra together without Parallels or VirtualBox. With Parallels and VirtualBox, you can.

 

[whiteboard]

@Boyd01 uses Parallels, whereas I use VirtualBox. Similar concepts.

Easiest way is to visualize your host computer running a host OS is an aircraft carrier. Parallels or Virtualbox provides a platform of resources (like fuel, ammunition, spare parts etc) and a runway for the aircrafts on the carrier. And the different OS are like aircrafts that can perform a variety of mission roles.

That was helpful.

To @Boyd01's point, I probably don't need virtualization if I can find replacement apps for Big Sur, but I figured now was a good time to learn about something that might be helpful down the road.

I think I get the high-level of how virtualization works.

Thanks, everyone for all of the help!!