Who has or is planning to get an electric car / EV Talk

[scubachap]

Out of interest just had another look on Autotrader, that 676 seems to be mainly Nissan Leafs and Zoe's. Decent enough cars but not what I'd need. I've actually looked seriously before a few times but realised it just wasn't going to work financially or practically.

I get the appeal and have no doubt there are big benefits but in the end for most people, 40-60K in cash is a phenomenal amount to plunk down on a car. I suspect we inhabit somewhat different worlds.

Sure, the future will be electric eventually but it will interesting to see how things pan out over the next few years.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Let's face it. The cars older than say 3-4 years, were Audi eTrons, Jaguar iPace, Tesla Model 3/S/X, and indeed Nissan Leaf and Zoe's. It takes time for other models to trickle down, but even if you look at say a common small family car like an Audi Q3, typical fake SUV with front wheel drive, small, but highly popular you need to be talking about 10 year old cars to get into that price range, and even then it is mainly the diesel versions that aren't allowed (without paying extra) in the 12 or so clean air zones across the UK. So it takes at least another 6 years or so before the first batches start to appear. Both for ICE and EV.

 

[JT2002TJ]

Vehicles cost a lot more these days. At least here in the US, the TM3/TMY fall within the same price range as the equivalent ICE vehicles. Used, they also fall in the same price range. If you are looking for vehicles 10+ years old, EV's really aren't going to fit that bill, as reliable EVs really started with the TM3 in 2017. There are a bunch of other manufactures making good reliable EVs since then, but this makes them < 10 years old.

The older EVs like Leaf, Bolt, OG TMS/TMX ,i3 are good but lack in one thing or another (charging speed, battery capacity, thermal maintenance). I'm going to catch heat by including the i3, but there are known issues like the AC compressor failure.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Vehicles cost a lot more these days. At least here in the US, the TM3/TMY fall within the same price range as the equivalent ICE vehicles. Used, they also fall in the same price range. If you are looking for vehicles 10+ years old, EV's really aren't going to fit that bill, as reliable EVs really started with the TM3 in 2017. There are a bunch of other manufactures making good reliable EVs since then, but this makes them < 10 years old.

The older EVs like Leaf, Bolt, OG TMS/TMX ,i3 are good but lack in one thing or another (charging speed, battery capacity, thermal maintenance). I'm going to catch heat by including the i3, but there are known issues like the AC compressor failure.

I agree, they were awesome in its day but even the TMS/X only got one pedal driving with the raven upgrade for example. And charging was maximum 120 before then. And they were the best, then. That is only just over 4 years ago...

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Out of interest just had another look on Autotrader, that 676 seems to be mainly Nissan Leafs and Zoe's. Decent enough cars but not what I'd need. I've actually looked seriously before a few times but realised it just wasn't going to work financially or practically.

I get the appeal and have no doubt there are big benefits but in the end for most people, 40-60K in cash is a phenomenal amount to plunk down on a car. I suspect we inhabit somewhat different worlds.

Sure, the future will be electric eventually but it will interesting to see how things pan out over the next few years.

As happy as we are with our EV, my daily is a diesel and I doubt my next car will be an EV just yet. I can get by with one more ICE car, most probably a petrol 3 Series Touring. The battery health of secondhand EV’s seems to be a bit more complicated than judging an ICE cars service history and I don’t like the idea of having to just buy approved from main dealers at their premium just to have peace of mind. We also need the secondhand market to build up with more higher end offerings at the price points comparable ICE models have reached for more consumers to show interest I think. It’ll all evolve over time.

 

[scubachap]

As happy as we are with our EV, my daily is a diesel and I doubt my next car will be an EV just yet. I can get by with one more ICE car, most probably a petrol 3 Series Touring. The battery health of secondhand EV’s seems to be a bit more complicated than judging an ICE cars service history and I don’t like the idea of having to just buy approved from main dealers at their premium just to have peace of mind. We also need the secondhand market to build up with more higher end offerings at the price points comparable ICE models have reached for more consumers to show interest I think. It’ll all evolve over time.

If I was running things I'd try and mandate for there to be some sort of standard 'un-tamperable' battery health indicator fitted to all EVs.

 

[Apple fanboy]

London is currently a bad example as it depends how you define pollution, for example the congestion charge is really all about NOx emissions as opposed to CO2. I don't anyone who bought an EV as a result of it's widening out to were most people live (the famous doughnut of outer boroughs). Those of us who were forced to switch vehicles have pretty all gone petrol or nearly new adblue diesel - EV's are still generally pretty much out of the price range of people who buy used cars. I'm still smarting about having to offload a 2014 diesel estate with 45,000 on the clock that I was going use for quite a few more years. I replaced it with a secondhand 1.4 petrol equivalent. I get the desirability of reducing NOx emissions but I'm now using more fuel, creating a lot more CO2 plus have created the demand for an additional car.

Interestingly they seem to be currently withholding data for the success (or otherwise) of the expansion until after the upcoming Mayoral election - I strongly suspect the while NOx will have dropped CO2 emissions must have increased.

Look, I'm really not against EVs - I would actually like one, in many ways they make a lot more sense than ICE (all that complicated and highly engineered nonsense under the bonnet in my car is a really complicated way to make an axle turn - a simple electric motor is a much better idea.) But, at the moment they're simply too expensive for the average Joe like myself who are single car households and buys secondhand.

My friend lives in Croydon bought a second hand MG5 for exactly that reason. Loves it.

 

[hobowankenobi]

One issue I have not seen talked about broadly...but I expect will happen (it may be starting soon...), is that as EVs demand goes up and spreads from the high cost to mid-range, there will be a hard lower-cost market that develops for low-cost used ICE vehicles. The more popular mid-range EVs become, the more formerly mid-range ICE cars will fall in value (think Camry or Accord).

When former Camry and Accord drivers decide they want EVs, what happens to those millions upon millions of used cars?

Unless they are outlawed, or gas prices get prohibitive, there will be an eager low-cost market ready to drive them. This could take a decade or longer to unwind...even after there are no new ICE Camery or Accords being produced. And that won't even start for at least a few more years.

Saw this in the mid to late '80s when ironically enough, Accords and Camrys were replacing big gas guzzlers. Those big cars (Buick, Oldsmobile, Dodge, Cadillac, etc.) fell out of favor for many, and their used value plummeted. But low-end buyers snapped them up, because even though the gas bill was high, the purchase price was low. I had friends who bought big land yachts for almost nothing just to cruise around in them for the novelty, but others used them as daily drivers because they could be had for almost nothing.

We could see this play out again at a much larger scale fairly soon. If it does, we will see a plateau in EV adoption. Even with a very good $25K or even $20K EV on the market...there will likely still be a booming market for used $5K to $10K ICE cars until the supply dries up.

 

[Apple fanboy]

One issue I have not seen talked about broadly...but I expect will happen (it may be starting soon...), is that as EVs demand goes up and spreads from the high cost to mid-range, there will be a hard lower-cost market that develops for low-cost used ICE vehicles. The more popular mid-range EVs become, the more formerly mid-range ICE cars will fall in value (think Camry or Accord).

When former Camry and Accord drivers decide they want EVs, what happens to those millions upon millions of used cars?

Unless they are outlawed, or gas prices get prohibitive, there will be an eager low-cost market ready to drive them. This could take a decade or longer to unwind...even after there are no new ICE Camery or Accords being produced. And that won't even start for at least a few more years.

Saw this in the mid to late '80s when ironically enough, Accords and Camrys were replacing big gas guzzlers. Those big cars (Buick, Oldsmobile, Dodge, Cadillac, etc.) fell out of favor for many, and their used value plummeted. But low-end buyers snapped them up, because even though the gas bill was high, the purchase price was low. I had friends who bought big land yachts for almost nothing just to cruise around in them for the novelty, but others used them as daily drivers because they could be had for almost nothing.

We could see this play out again at a much larger scale fairly soon. If it does, we will see a plateau in EV adoption. Even with a very good $25K or even $20K EV on the market...there will likely still be a booming market for used $5K to $10K ICE cars until the supply dries up.

There will. But in Europe we pay much higher petrol prices already. Then add things like congestion charges in and higher road tax.
I think the used ICE values will plummet at some point. Not saying now, but at some point.
But if it means less ICE vehicles on the road I don’t see that as a bad thing.

 

[diamond.g]

Oh Tesla dropped the price of FSD to 8k and no longer offer EAP (at least in the US can't speak for other territories).

Still no performance 3.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Oh Tesla dropped the price of FSD to 8k and no longer offer EAP (at least in the US can't speak for other territories).

Still no performance 3.

They wouldn’t drop EAP as FSD isn’t certified to use on the public road.

 

[diamond.g]

They wouldn’t drop EAP as FSD isn’t certified to use on the public road.

That is fair. In the US this is the 2nd time EAP went away in favor of FSD. IIRC all cars get the basic lane keep and traffic aware cruise control.


Out of curiosity, does EAP in Europe stop for traffic lights like it does (did?) in the States?

 

[quagmire]

That is fair. In the US this is the 2nd time EAP went away in favor of FSD. IIRC all cars get the basic lane keep and traffic aware cruise control.


Out of curiosity, does EAP in Europe stop for traffic lights like it does (did?) in the States?

Even basic autopilot will stop for traffic lights or stop signs. It just won't continue once stopped and you have to take over.

But sorry Elon, still not biting at $8K.

 

[diamond.g]

Even basic autopilot will stop for traffic lights or stop signs. It just won't continue once stopped and you have to take over.

But sorry Elon, still not biting at $8K.

Nice, I didn't know if that feature trickled down or not. Maybe Tesla would be better off raising vehicle price by like 4k and including FSD (like how they raised vehicle pricing and included AP all those years ago).

So really the only thing FSD does is turns in the city then, which I guess isn't worth 8K, but then again since no one else has a compatible feature they can price it at whatever they think it will sell for.

Do folks here think Bluecruise (hands free autopilot) is worth 800 a year?

 

[cyb3rdud3]

That is fair. In the US this is the 2nd time EAP went away in favor of FSD. IIRC all cars get the basic lane keep and traffic aware cruise control.


Out of curiosity, does EAP in Europe stop for traffic lights like it does (did?) in the States?

No, weirdly that only works when you purchase FSD on the “promise” that one day it may work within road safety regulations. 🤷‍♂️

 

[diamond.g]

No, weirdly that only works when you purchase FSD on the “promise” that one day it may work within road safety regulations. 🤷‍♂️

Ah, so they kept that as a part of the NOA City Stack.

I think as far as product names are concerned they should have: Autopilot, Navigate on Autopilot: Highway, Navigate on Autopilot: City Streets. Then Summon, and Auto Park could be separate features.

Basically follow how BMW/Porsche separates their ADAS packages. Though that may cause them to have to break out Autopilot from the base vehicle price.

AP: 800 USD
NoAH: 1200 USD
NoACS: 2000 USD
Summon: 500 USD
Auto Park: 200 USD
Auto Lane Change: 500 USD

Hardware Retrofit/Upgrade: 5000 USD

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Yes, although FSD was supposed to be a whole new category that never became. To my mind the Audi nomecoluture is easy to understand; City pack, Tour pack, Parking pack and if you want Summon and Auto Park it would be Park Plus.

Or do it like Kia, Volvo, and Polestar just give the top trip everything

 

[4sallypat]

Charging non Tesla at Superchargers is going to be an issue with charge ports on non Teslas.

Parked crooked in a handicap space and on "no parking" zebra area:

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Charging non Tesla at Superchargers is going to be an issue with charge ports on non Teslas.

Parked crooked in a handicap space and on "no parking" zebra area:
View attachment 2370540

Only on non-tesla's where the charge port is where it is on that Ford Most don't have them there...Audi have them at the front but on both sides, Polestar, Volvo, Kia, you name it all the same place like Tesla...

 

[JT2002TJ]

Even basic autopilot will stop for traffic lights or stop signs. It just won't continue once stopped and you have to take over.

But sorry Elon, still not biting at $8K.

Basic autopilot does not stop at Traffic Lights. It requires EAP or FSD. With the drop of EAP, it now requires FSD (unless you already purchased EAP).

Perhaps you were mixing up the green light notification ding?

Autopilot and Full Self-Driving (Supervised) | Tesla Support

Autopilot is an advanced driver assistance system that enhances safety and convenience behind the wheel. When used properly, Autopilot reduces your overall workload as a driver. Learn more about Autopilot.

www.tesla.com

 

[Apple fanboy]

Charging non Tesla at Superchargers is going to be an issue with charge ports on non Teslas.

Parked crooked in a handicap space and on "no parking" zebra area:
View attachment 2370540

Only on the older ones. The newer ones have longer cables for exactly that reason.

 

[quagmire]

Basic autopilot does not stop at Traffic Lights. It requires EAP or FSD. With the drop of EAP, it now requires FSD (unless you already purchased EAP).

Perhaps you were mixing up the green light notification ding?

Autopilot and Full Self-Driving (Supervised) | Tesla Support

Autopilot is an advanced driver assistance system that enhances safety and convenience behind the wheel. When used properly, Autopilot reduces your overall workload as a driver. Learn more about Autopilot.

www.tesla.com

Back when I was testing out autopilot when I got my 2021 Model 3, it would stop at stop signs. It wouldn't proceed and would need to fully disengage autopilot to continue.

Granted didn't test it at a stop light, but I imagine the same logic would be programmed. If the light is red, it would stop but then basically stay there even when the light is green.

Or I would hope it would just to reduce Tesla's liability in case some idiot tries to use autopilot like FSD and the car blows through a red light.

 

[ChrisA]

. You need a 2nd car, a conventionally powered car for longer trips (you don't think you will, but you will).

You would buy an entire car, just to use it a few times a year?

I never understand this, peole say "What if I want to go on a 3,000 mile road trip?" My answer is "how many times per year do you do this, Like 3 or 6 times a year, or is this something you might do someday just once in the future?

It is likely cheaper to rent a car for a 3,000 mile trip than to buy one. Especially if this is a once-every-few-years kind of trip. For example, my dad was going to buy a Jeep because he was planning a long road trip and part of it would be on dirt roads in Arizona. I suggested that maybe it would be cheaper to use his regular car for the several thousand miles of highway driving and then rent a Jeep for 3 or 4 days in Arizona.

 

[ChrisA]

Hot climates also do a number on batteries. I’ve replaced more batteries since moving to Texas than I ever did in Minnesota. Now I admit there may not be the same parallel between a regular car battery and a EV battery when it comes to heat. I’ve not looked into that.

Yes. That cheap unmanaged lead-acid battery is nothing at all like the one inside a Tesla. For one thing, your engine-start battery is not temperature controlled. An EV battery is both actively cooled and actively heated. So In Minnesota the battery controller would turn on the electric heat and never let the battery get cold. Same in Texas, there is a cooling system. If your lead-acid battery were actively cooled and heated it would last a long time.

The climate has less effect on the battery than you'd think. Cold weather does however kill range, I think because the car has to run an electric heater for both the battery and the passingers. But the range is not reduced because the battery is cold. it never gets cold.

I don't know of anyone who has replaced an EV battery or even a battery in a Prius. I'm sure it happens but the battery in those cars lasts about as long as a modern gasoline engine. I live where it seems every 3rd car is a Tesla or Hybrid. Most Hybrids are either Toyota or they have licensed Toyota's "synergy" system. Yes, I go on a dog walk and see that there are at least 3 to 5 Teslas parked on every block.

I never hear people complaining about the need to replace their V8 gas engine after "only" 20 or 30 years, so why complain about the estimated 20 or 30 year life of a battery.

I was at the Toyota dealer a while ago talking with mechanics. Most of the taxis around here are Toyota Prius. They are running 24x7 using different drivers and then rotated into this Toyota dealer for service. The mechanics are saying they are now seeing Prius with 300,000 miles with only routine maintenance, new tires, filters, and oil, and (get this) original brake pads. They say they "think" the battery life is half-used and might have to be replaced after 500,000 miles.

OK, big deal, spend $10K every 500,000 miles.
But Prius are gas cars that happen to get 50MPG in city driving, they are not EVs.

BTW, I just saw my first Cyber Truck in the wid. It is big and ugly but built stronger then anything I've ever seen outer then armored military vehicles. It borders on "gross over engineering". It is not made with sheet metal but rather steel plate. I think people are right about expecting one million miles of service from these. That is 80 years of normal driving.

 

[sunapple]

BTW, I just saw my first Cyber Truck in the wid. It is big and ugly but built stronger then anything I've ever seen outer then armored military vehicles. It borders on "gross over engineering". It is not made with sheet metal but rather steel plate. I think people are right about expecting one million miles of service from these. That is 80 years of normal driving.

Just make sure to have your accelerator pedal riveted and you'll be good to go.