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Puget Systems does the same thing, largely for creative professionals. I'd be amazed if the high-end shops together plus HP's and Dell's high-end workstation business (the real Zs and Precisions, not corporate PCs with a "workstation" label on them) sell a million computers a year combined.

So profit margins on the Windows pc market as a whole probably aren’t the best indicator, given if Apple were to make a slotbox, it’s going to be up in the realms of Alienware and other enthusiast machines (bearing in mind the high end gaming market also has high Venn-diagram overlap with content creation, VR etc) which has an annual growth somewhere round 20%. It’s not the doom and gloom picture that the larger PC industry (and the Mac’s sales trends) are experiencing.

I’d be very surprised if the Mac Pro was dramatically outsized compared to other players in that market.

by having nicely designed non-commodity computers that you plug in and they work. Why would that company want to build commodity PCs?

Until their keyboards fail over and over, or their graphics cards burn out, over and over ;)

Premium PCs is realistically where everyone is wanting Apple to go, not commodity. Personally, I don’t want to have to learn how to plug a motherboard into a case’s power switch, and to the thermal sensors on the various components, but likewise, I don’t want to be stuck with an anaemic GPU that necessitates turfing out a whole machine when it’s outdated.

A Puget running MacOS would be brilliant.
 
What exactly does Apple mean by "modular"? Perhaps it's more than a form factor issue...

I firmly believe there's a universe of people (trapped in the Apple distortion field, perhaps) who might find the mMP an attractive option for their world. To best address this diverse potential customer base, I can see a market for an affordable ($3,000-5,000) base model that offers configuration flexibility (thermal, I/O, etc) beyond the mini/iMac/laptop options.

IMHO, the customer the mMP is for is mostly BTO so in this context "base" model is actually "starting point" for configuration. Different use cases demand different capabilities and some users may only need extra oomph in particular realms like monster GPUs, etc.

FWIW, I'd offer a mini-tower sized (shape TBD, rack mountable a plus) case with one big PCIe slot for a bomber GPU (or whatever else), single socket mobo able to host 512G RAM (8x64) and one M.2 SSD starting at $2,999 for the 8c/32GB (4x8) RAM/256G SSD model with plenty of ports. It would max out between $10-15K depending on config, limited by thermals, physical space and a PSU under 1,100w. Plenty of expansion options via TB3.

As a companion piece, I'd offer a mini-tower sized slot box that compliments the design of the "brain" and connects to it via a high bandwidth/low latency solution - ideally a custom PCIe extender. The "partner" mini-tower would have it's own PSU, cooling, etc. This would provide a way to build out a pretty powerful workstation at initial configuration that could be certified and qualify for AppleCare.

This concept would hold up the modular "promise" without creating a rats nest of boxes and cables. Apple would still have the only option for maxing out the configuration (other external solutions would be bus limited) with the "partner" piece giving them pole position for selling bomber configurations in the $10-30K range where 30% or better profits could be realized.

Just sayin'
 
I'd love to see Apple license the MacOS to Puget, HP and anybody else who wants to builds workstations (charge $300 a machine for the OS) - even with a tight Hardware Compatibility List that excluded NVidia.

Trillion-dollar Apple clearly isn't terribly interested in building a machine that causes support hassles and only sells 100,000 or so units a year (if they do it at all, it'll be because of pressure from big-name Hollywood studios). 100,000 is a lot more than any premium gaming or workstation maker sells, if you count only real workstations (Z4, Z6, Z8) from HP and equivalent machines from Dell, etc.

If HP counts more than 100,000 workstation sales annually, it is because of "Z-series" variants on standard business desktops, not the real deal with Xeons and ECC RAM. You also can't count ordinary Dells with "Alienware" on the case. Pre-Dell Alienware was well under 100,000 systems/year, and if more "Alienwares" than that are sold now, it's because some of them are just XPS's labeled Alienware (there are still serious Alienwares made, but some are badge-engineered Dells).

Apple has no interest in the gaming market, and will probably keep NVidia out of anything they do for that reason - they obviously can't get a GeForce driver to meet their stability requirements (however hard they have or haven't tried).

They should probably outsource their creative pro machines to HP, Puget and others who might be interested. $300 per machine licensing is high enough that nobody can build a machine that competes with the Mini, or any but relatively high-end iMacs. It's also competitive with high-end workstation editions of Windows.

If they were really feeling generous to creative types, they could also license the OS to Lenovo and HP for higher-end laptops. They could set minimum weight and configuration requirements (4.5 lbs, 32 GB RAM???) that kept competitors out of their lucrative ultrabook business, while offering high-configuration alternatives to the 15" MBP.
 
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Oh, there's also one company that sells 18 million computers every year at 30%+ margins. They'd be a hundred-billion dollar company by market capitalization on the strength of those computers alone. This computer company would have revenue close to if not in the Fortune 100, yet it makes a profit per system in the range of tiny companies like Puget Systems or Falcon Northwest. This company ships around 10% of personal and business computers sold in the US (closer to 6-7% worldwide), and is usually around the 4th or 5th largest system builder on Earth, yet they make between 50 and 70% of all the profit in the entire personal computer industry. These numbers are rarely seen broken out because this massively overperforming computer company is part of a much larger cell phone manufacturer with a trillion-dollar market cap. They succeed by having a unique operating system that people choose over Windows, and by having nicely designed non-commodity computers that you plug in and they work. Why would that company want to build commodity PCs?


Why indeed ?

Why make a better, more usable product when there are still enough customers left to buy whatever you throw on the market every 5 years or so ?

Why worry about users when you can make your shareholders happy ?
Or rather yourselves, if you are in Apple's upper management holding a bundle of shares, and you can simply cash out when things start going south .

Big profits don't exist in a vacuum, someone is always paying for it .
Usually the customer, and of course the taxpayer .
[doublepost=1557037548][/doublepost]
I'd love to see Apple license the MacOS to Puget, HP and anybody else who wants to builds workstations (charge $300 a machine for the OS) - even with a tight Hardware Compatibility List that excluded NVidia.

.......

They should probably outsource their creative pro machines to HP, Puget and others who might be interested. $300 per machine licensing is high enough that nobody can build a machine that competes with the Mini, or any but relatively high-end iMacs. It's also competitive with high-end workstation editions of Windows.

If they were really feeling generous to creative types, they could also license the OS to Lenovo and HP for higher-end laptops. They could set minimum weight and configuration requirements (4.5 lbs, 32 GB RAM???) that kept competitors out of their lucrative ultrabook business, while offering high-configuration alternatives to the 15" MBP.

I couldn't agree more .
It'd be the best possible solution for all computer users on the planet - a second, major, cross platform OS !

However, if there is one thing Apple doesn't like , it's hardware and software support .
They don't support their own few products properly , imagine if they had to do a Windows and worry about all kinds of systems . Their heads would explode !
 
I also feel in my bones that Apple has another great failure left in them. ;)

This Just In! Apple Reveals Self Driving Car In Classic Body!
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IMO Apple really just needs to use the 2019 Mac Pro as a way to lure people to the Apple ecosystem for the first time, and lure BACK the people who have already left. Give them an offer they can't refuse, or else people will skip it.
IMO Apple doesn't just need to offer a compelling professional workstation. They also need to make a commitment to the professional market. One of the things I feel is frustrating about the 6,1 Mac Pro is it hasn't seen a single update since its release five year ago. Agree or disagree with what it is we should all be able to agree that the stagnation for their professional level offering is cause for concern. If Apple releases what many have been requesting but then lets it stagnate we're only slightly better off today than we are with the 6,1.
 
The sad thing about the 6,1 Mac Pro is that it was, and still is, a decent computer. As a consultant I have worked on just a handful because they only appealed to people willing to pay the sticker price for what is a very high end mac mini, great for photographers and anyone who wants better performance but at a high cost. The only upgrades I have installed in them have been larger SSDs.
The double tap that killed interest in this model is that Apple designed something that was difficult to upgrade AND did not announce new models THEMSELVES , making video and audio professionals cling to their - still pretty decent - 5,1 and even older tower Mac Pros...
 
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The sad thing about the 6,1 Mac Pro is that it was, and still is, a decent computer. As a consultant I have worked on just a handful because they only appealed to people willing to pay the sticker price for what is a very high end mac mini, great for photographers and anyone who wants better performance but at a high cost. The only upgrades I have installed in them have been larger SSDs.
The double tap that killed interest in this model is that Apple designed something that was difficult to upgrade AND did not announce new models THEMSELVES , making video and audio professionals cling to their - still pretty decent - 5,1 and even older tower Mac Pros...

It's a decent Mac, but not a decent computer compared to modern PCs. At it's price point it is a laughable computer.
 
I just don't believe that Apple is going to release a system that you can upgrade yourself with entirely off the shelf components, that is not in their interests or style these days.

It will be upgradeable via components you can only buy from Apple made in a certain way that you cannot hack around to avoid paying them.
 
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The sad thing about the 6,1 Mac Pro is that it was, and still is, a decent computer. As a consultant I have worked on just a handful because they only appealed to people willing to pay the sticker price for what is a very high end mac mini, great for photographers and anyone who wants better performance but at a high cost. The only upgrades I have installed in them have been larger SSDs.
The double tap that killed interest in this model is that Apple designed something that was difficult to upgrade AND did not announce new models THEMSELVES , making video and audio professionals cling to their - still pretty decent - 5,1 and even older tower Mac Pros...

The sadder thing is that the cheese greater mac pro 5,1 is still better than almost everything apple currently offers today. And that worse still, apple will have learned nothing and instead of making something with upgradable PCI slots, ram and storage, it will likely double down on the failed compromises of the trashcan's "modularity" rather than just giving enthusiasts/pros what they really want, which is expandability/upgradability with standard market offerings.

Two main reasons for this. 1) Apple doesnt give a **** about the mac. 2) Apple doesnt care about the enthusiasts that saved the company and "brought it to the dance" so to speak. They are fine with burning the bridge with enthusiasts. They are confident, they will never need that bridge again. Woe is them if they are wrong.
 
The sad thing about the 6,1 Mac Pro is that it was, and still is, a decent computer. As a consultant I have worked on just a handful because they only appealed to people willing to pay the sticker price for what is a very high end mac mini, great for photographers and anyone who wants better performance but at a high cost. The only upgrades I have installed in them have been larger SSDs.
The double tap that killed interest in this model is that Apple designed something that was difficult to upgrade AND did not announce new models THEMSELVES , making video and audio professionals cling to their - still pretty decent - 5,1 and even older tower Mac Pros...

In all honesty, it just had one downfall, but a big one, with the GPUs. For anyone that doesn't need good GPUs, for its time, it was fine in performance and extremely innovative in its convenient packaging.

Look at how they determined that a new Mac Mini doesn't need a real GPU option, apparently there's enough of market out there for non-GPU intensive users that just need processing power. For the new one all they really needed to figure is their GPU solution. The fact that it's taking them so long is a bit disconcerting though.

They're probably going in deep on the manufacturing logistics again, but if they miss WWDC...
 
In all honesty, it just had one downfall, but a big one, with the GPUs. For anyone that doesn't need good GPUs, for its time, it was fine in performance and extremely innovative in its convenient packaging.

The single internal SSD was a pretty big dealbreaker for me. I don't always need to fire up my Raid array when I work, having internal drives for project files and assets and such is very useful. I also need a dedicated SSD for Photoshop and After Effects scratch. Having additional external drives for things I was used to having inside all my machines was complete BS. I bought a 2012 tower the day they announced that Trashcan. It was a slap in the face to every MacPro user. It was in every way less of a machine for the same or more expensive price.

You mad bro? YES!
 
In all honesty, it just had one downfall, but a big one, with the GPUs. For anyone that doesn't need good GPUs, for its time, it was fine in performance and extremely innovative in its convenient packaging.


That's rewriting history .

The MP 6.1 wasn't just limited by GPUs , that was the least of its worries at the time .
It was a stinker from day one .

While I agree the design was innovative, even bold, it was lacking performance from the start and the issues it would have were obvious even back then .
Today I might consider paying half price for a new one if it came with TB3, for its portability, but in 2012 it was a slap in the face to Mac users .
 
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IMO Apple doesn't just need to offer a compelling professional workstation. They also need to make a commitment to the professional market. One of the things I feel is frustrating about the 6,1 Mac Pro is it hasn't seen a single update since its release five year ago. Agree or disagree with what it is we should all be able to agree that the stagnation for their professional level offering is cause for concern. If Apple releases what many have been requesting but then lets it stagnate we're only slightly better off today than we are with the 6,1.
I agree with the sentiment, but how naïve must one be to believe a single word they say about commitment the day they present the damn thing, hopefully sometime in the first half of the century.

If I recall correctly, when Phil Schiller’s ass innovated the thing on stage, he said that was the mac pro for the next ten years. Unless he was literally meaning it (he’s past halfway the decade now, so he’s 60% right) we were supposed to understand that they were going to update the model periodically. We all know what happened. Even more, in the presentation there was even a slide of a photographer taking advantage of the architecture of the tcMP on a “brand new version of Aperture”. We all know what happened.

A couple of years ago, during the first Schillerfest, they said they were committed to making the greatest mac pro we could even dream of. More than two years later all we have is a rumour of maybe some words during wwdc. That and a bunch of people over the internet stacking things like crazy claiming that’s the new mac pro we’re getting, since that’s the more popular interpretation of Phil’s “modular” reference.

So, apple has to commit to updating the mac pro, all right, but apple’s statements of commitment are worth nothing. If we see them updating the model several times during the first years, then they may get some credibility back.
 
Funny thing is, the 6,1 could have been a winner (still limited, but enough for many) if they hadn't shrunk it too much. Imagine a taller cylinder with full sized PCIe slots and double the cooling capacity.
 
So are you saying Apple has been trying to source the proper screws for the new modular Mac Pro all this time...?!? ;^p

I wouldn't put it past them! I wonder if they seriously started designing it a week before the announcement.
 
I wouldn't put it past them! I wonder if they seriously started designing it a week before the announcement.
A week before the April 2017 mea culpa when they admitted that the MP6,1 was a huge mistake?
Or a week before the April 2018 message that the MP7,1 would not be a 2018 product?
Or a week before the non-existent April 2019 message because they had nothing to announce?

Maybe they haven't started design yet.... Still waiting for an applicant for the "junior hardware engineer" position that they opened.
 
A week before the April 2017 mea culpa when they admitted that the MP6,1 was a huge mistake?
Or a week before the April 2018 message that the MP7,1 would not be a 2018 product?
Or a week before the non-existent April 2019 message because they had nothing to announce?

Maybe they haven't started design yet.... Still waiting for an applicant for the "junior hardware engineer" position that they opened.

Under Tim Cook Apple fetishizes not opening a new product line until the last possible moment. They probably assume that the iMac Pro bought them more time to fiddle with the Mac Pro.
 
Funny thing is, the 6,1 could have been a winner (still limited, but enough for many) if they hadn't shrunk it too much. Imagine a taller cylinder with full sized PCIe slots and double the cooling capacity.

That would have been one big cylinder .

Obviously increased height still wouldn't accomodate PCIe slots, so it literally would have had to be the size of a trashcan .
The central core concept would have been impossible to maintain at that point, the cooling fans would have been massive .

It's probably the only way the tcMP could have been even more ridiculous .
 
Under Tim Cook Apple fetishizes not opening a new product line until the last possible moment.

For a "brand new" product category .... not. HomePod , AirPower both introduced way before they could ship them. ( Airpower current infinitely so. ) iMac 2014's (with thinned out case) sputtered out of the manufacturing gate.

Mac Pro 2013 and iMac Pro 2017 ... 6 month lead time in "preview". Initial Watch ... months lead time ( new software ecosystem to get ramped up for developers ).


The "last possible moment" is more so about existing products that are getting upgrades. The question more so is whether the next Mac Pro is either

Mac Pro 2009-2012 ----> Mac Pro 2019

or
Mac Pro 2013 ---> Mac Pro 2019

As long as Apple keeps the Mac Pro 2013 active "manufacture and sales" category then it is a 'normal' product upgrade.
If they are treating as a "brand new" product category ( i.e., the old category died in 2013 and a 'new', substantively different, category is being 'born' in 2019 ), then there will be a long lead in as "standard practice". In that second conext the current Mac Pro model is merely just a name place holder.



They probably assume that the iMac Pro bought them more time to fiddle with the Mac Pro.

If in the "name place holder" case it is more so that the iMac Pro is really the more direct replacement for most of what the Mac Pro 2013 was covering. Small desktop footprint, literal desktop Pro system. It isn't a "buy more time" product It is a fill the role that isn't going away product. They didn't "fiddle with that class" , they did something substantive.

The Mac Pro 2013 and iMac Pro doesn't cover some subsets of the what the older version covered. It isn't that they are "fiddling" with those segments, It is more likely they are just lower priority in order ( and Apple has a limited ability to 'walk and chew gum at the same time". They don't have resources allocated to move more than 6-7 Mac products forward concurrently. ). That isn't "fiddling" as much as Scrooge McDuck.
 
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I agree with the sentiment, but how naïve must one be to believe a single word they say about commitment the day they present the damn thing, hopefully sometime in the first half of the century.

If I recall correctly, when Phil Schiller’s ass innovated the thing on stage, he said that was the mac pro for the next ten years. Unless he was literally meaning it (he’s past halfway the decade now, so he’s 60% right) we were supposed to understand that they were going to update the model periodically.


What is actually said paraphrases as "what is a new possible form factor for the next 10 years" . Not 100% those specific dimensions, but breaking out of the "basically same external form factor with innards arranged basically the same way".

There wasn't much of any explicit or implicit promise of upgrade periodicity at all. One aspect that they do hit on in the presentation that OpenCL was the future ( "You should be using OpenCL"). Also PCI-e SSD flash is the "future" of workstation storage.

The larger point was putting the "old" Mac Pro power into much lower amount of volume. That general aspect they have weaved into the iMac Pro. Swapped embedded display for Thermal core but also a "new format" for the category. Still didn't backtrack from the SSD only internal storage.


We all know what happened. Even more, in the presentation there was even a slide of a photographer taking advantage of the architecture of the tcMP on a “brand new version of Aperture”. We all know what happened.

No. At the above video's 5:00-6:00 mark talks about 4K display and new version of Final Cut Pro X. "You can be this guy" was a 3 4K screen FCPX set up. Not Aperture. FCPX is still quite healthily getting updates at this point in time. That is what happened.


Two major things tripped up Apple's next 10 year forecast. First, OpenCL which mutated into Metal from Apple's perspective. The Mac Pro 2013 'bet the farm" on OpenCL and Apple largely changed "horses" to the 'future' about a year or so later.

Second, and coupled to that was TDP trend of GPUs ramping way past most workstation CPUs. ( And AMD's rosey future path getting bogged down in a fab and design process swamp where throwing extra power at the problem was the short/intermediate "work around". ) If something like AMD Polaris had shipped 1-2 years earlier than it did the current Mac pro might have seen an update (to at least ride out he gap a bit longer) . It didn't so no update.

As far as Aperture ... that more so got dropped for the order of magnitude number higher photographers on iOS devices. Apple went with where the photographers were growing. The advanced software augments to pictures features were pushed into the "cameras' and far more got on the Metal (and custom silicon ) track quicker.


A couple of years ago, during the first Schillerfest, they said they were committed to making the greatest mac pro we could even dream of. More than two years later all we have is a rumour of maybe some words during wwdc.

Again no. Apple never said anything about "could even dream of".

https://techcrunch.com/2017/04/06/t...-john-ternus-on-the-state-of-apples-pro-macs/

The only mention of root word "dream" was by a reporter in reference to the MP 2013 design; not Apple.

".. what was the moment you came to the realization that the Mac Pro that you had dreamed was not this design? ..."

Federighi said the following.
"...We need an architecture that can deliver across a wide dynamic range of performance and that we can efficiently keep it up to date with the best technologies over years. ..."

Schiller said the following
"... and we want to architect it so that we can keep it fresh with regular improvements, and we’re committed to making it our highest-end, high throughput desktop system, designed for our demanding pro customers. ..."

Generally Apple has said stuff along the lines of more performance/bandwidth than other (and/or previous) Mac system. Apple isn't making statements about faster than anything anybody can conceive of. The "our highest-end" is far more of a relative notion of "highest" than some kind of overall market global max/highest.


Schiller also said the following:
"... Well, you know that we’ve always tried to strike that balance between meeting as large a group of users’ needs as possible, while making the fewest number of products that enable that. So we can put energy into making them really great. Great performance, great quality, great innovative features. If you dilute too far, those become counterproductive with each other. ..."

Apple isn't going to make everything for everybody. The Mini, iMac , and iMac Pro don't cover all possible desktop users. It also isn't likely that the next Mac Pro's objective is to cover 'everyone else'. Some subset of that "rest of the market" that is big enough to be a viable product. Apple's objective also isn't out to chase the smallest, most elitist, niche(s). Smallest isn't an objective. Going too deep on Ultra , Super duper maximum of maximum performance is a smaller and smaller market. That isn't the primary balanced objective. That is the "counterproductive" alluded to above.


That and a bunch of people over the internet stacking things like crazy claiming that’s the new mac pro we’re getting, since that’s the more popular interpretation of Phil’s “modular” reference.

It isn't the "more popular interpretation". Far more so it is the more controversial one which in turn generates more clicks/page views which generation more ads revenue. It is the view that generates more money for mac "news" websites.


So, apple has to commit to updating the mac pro, all right, but apple’s statements of commitment are worth nothing. If we see them updating the model several times during the first years, then they may get some credibility back.

That kind of expectation setting on rate is misguided. The underlying components aren't going to update that fast. The iteration rate is probably going to be greater than 12 months even if their are committed. If the GPUs are basically made by Apple then maybe it will get incremental coverage updates on a shorter cycle. (.e.g. Apple covers 2 "cards" performance levels at first. Adds a 3rd 6-7 months down the road. And then does subsystem updates on a less than 12 month cyclee then on). That would actually help with their "have to do something to say something" problem about strictly not speaking about future products.

But overall, major upgrade covering multiple subsystems.... the components don't iterate that much. So pragmatically hard for the overall system to.

What Apple needs is more external evidence that a substantively sized team is assignedd almost fully keeping the Mac Pro moving forward. That isn't a "hobby project" product or a Rip van Winkle project that they work on in some kind of bust mode every half decade or so.
 
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If they're only spending it once ever 4 or 5 years it's definitely not a small fortune. Not sure what you mean by "down payment" here, either. That doesn't make any sense. I also never said it was an inconsequential amount. Please respond to what I have said, or don't respond at all. I have no obligation to defend things I never said or implied.

Sorry for being behind in the thread... but even if its every 4-5 years, $10K is still a heavy chunk of change for even the better-off (top 10%) mortals.

Pragmatically, I’d say that the psychological threshold is $5K, which why hobbyists especially start look to buying the RAM separately and similar DIYing comes more into play.

And for corporate accounts, $10K is often a “magic number” in purchasing departments and exceeding it is a kiss of death to get orders through. Especially for non-Windows equipment.
 
As far as Aperture ... that more so got dropped for the order of magnitude number higher photographers on iOS devices. Apple went with where the photographers were growing. The advanced software augments to pictures features were pushed into the "cameras' and far more got on the Metal (and custom silicon ) track quicker.

There's a more specific story / explanation for why Aperture didn't benefit from iOS device growth, and remain the core photography product / technology, and that is that Apple has a very, very odd way of maintaining & developing applications.

Apple doesn't do top-down management and resource assignation for individual apps, directing people to work on things where they're needed - managers compete with each other to attract talent within the organisation.

Aperture died, because the programers who worked on it, and the managers who were in charge of it left the company, and noone volunteered, or applied for the positions available to replace them.

Photos.app was an independently developed app, from a different group / programme manager that had nothing in common with the Aperture team or codebase.
 
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