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F-Train

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Apr 22, 2015
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I’ve had 2 lessons.

1. Guy was a fan of aperture priority and encouraged it
2. Guy was a fan of manual and encouraged it.

I prefer manual for if my daughter is running about and I need the higher shutter speed for the obvious reasons.

This is a good situation in which to choose shutter priority, letting you freeze the action or, if you prefer, letting you control how much blur there is.

I guess that reflects my general feeling about the original question. Aperture priority? Manual? Shutter priority, which is missing in action in this question?*

I think it depends on what you’re shooting, the conditions under which you’re shooting and what you want.

I’d be surprised if the people who gave the two lessons said anything different.

* Couldn’t resist the double entendre :)
 
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jerwin

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I also use a speedlight for almost everything and that's actually the fundamental reason why I rarely venture into the computed modes. it's really hard to get the lighting I want from the speedlight when I'm using a computed mode.

My flashes are third party barebones-- one is totally manual, and the other is TTL, though that doesn't help much when it's mounted on a light stand behind an umbrella. Do the expensive first party flash systems actually work in actual practice?
 

steveash

macrumors 6502a
Aug 7, 2008
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Perhaps the correct answer is ‘it depends’! I mostly use full manual as most of my photography is planned with plenty of time to think and requires complete creative control.

I occasionally use P in situations where there’s lots going on (eg kids running around) and concentrating on composition is more important than constantly changing settings. AP is a halfway house where you keep some control yet have the safety net of the camera adjusting to keep a correct exposure.

I occasionally use shutter priority if I want a specific amount of motion blur when shooting a moving subject yet the lighting is continuously changing. Imagine trying to capture a moving vehicle from another moving vehicle.

Just like metering modes, it can be easy to pick one and stick with it but you’ll get the best out of your camera by making changes to suit the situation.
 

MacRy

macrumors 601
Apr 2, 2004
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99% of the time I’m in AP with auto ISO and exposure comp (unless it’s my M9 and then I’m at base ISO for the majority of the time). The majority of the time I want to control the DOF for effect, so I don’t really care what my shutter speed is - as long as it’s not effecting the rest of the shot (that’s when I’ll go manual). Obviously I’ll be in manual when doing “studio” type stuff with or without flash.

It’s a personal choice I guess and what works for some might not be appropriate for others. I’d rather concentrate on the composition and get the shot than be faffing about twiddling dials and pushing buttons, especially when I shoot mainly manual focus lenses.
 
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JamesMay82

macrumors 65816
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Perhaps the correct answer is ‘it depends’! I mostly use full manual as most of my photography is planned with plenty of time to think and requires complete creative control.

I occasionally use P in situations where there’s lots going on (eg kids running around) and concentrating on composition is more important than constantly changing settings. AP is a halfway house where you keep some control yet have the safety net of the camera adjusting to keep a correct exposure.

I occasionally use shutter priority if I want a specific amount of motion blur when shooting a moving subject yet the lighting is continuously changing. Imagine trying to capture a moving vehicle from another moving vehicle.

Just like metering modes, it can be easy to pick one and stick with it but you’ll get the best out of your camera by making changes to suit the situation.


Yes I think with me being new the manual approach distracts me a bit from the composing the shots correctly. I'm only 3 months in so very early days. I was just curious as to how others approached it.
 
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F-Train

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Yes I think with me being new the manual approach distracts me a bit from the composing the shots correctly.

Maybe try this for a couple of days and see how you like it. You'll learn a lot, it lets you concentrate solely on composition and its application is not limited to street photography (might work really well for photos of your daughter):


3

A variation from Mark Wallace:

 
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robgendreau

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Jul 13, 2008
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Yes I think with me being new the manual approach distracts me a bit from the composing the shots correctly. I'm only 3 months in so very early days. I was just curious as to how others approached it.

I've noticed a tendency among people we tutor in our photo club to reach plateaus, like say hitting a point where they can get decent shots in one mode. So it's good you ask the question, because at each level of experience you might find there are other choices that would better in a given situation. And that goes for the other settings as well, and even the special features on each of our cameras. I'd bet only a fraction of us know every possible parameter. And given how crappy the menus can be, it's sure a drag to try to find say something about shutter shock settings or color of focus peaking or type of bulb setting when you're standing out in the cold trying to get a shot. So it pays to keep questioning and going back and learning the camera anew.
 
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someoldguy

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Manual , program , aperture priority and shutter priority are just tools . Once you learn what the advantages/disadvantages of each are you have a bunch more options to get you the result you want.
For me aperture priority seems to work for most occasions . Stick it on f8 and get on with it.
 

jerwin

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Made famous by, and pithily put by Arthur Fellig aka Weegee: "F/8 and be there".

About Fellig/Weegee, and his expression: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weegee

Zoom into this photo, and you can see that his speed graphic is set to f4

Of course, it is possible that I'm spoiled by Nikon auto lenses.

200f4.jpg
 

smirking

macrumors 68040
Aug 31, 2003
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My flashes are third party barebones-- one is totally manual, and the other is TTL, though that doesn't help much when it's mounted on a light stand behind an umbrella. Do the expensive first party flash systems actually work in actual practice?

I don't know because I mostly have third party flashes myself. I don't do a lot of studio shooting so I'm rarely doing complicated multi-light setups. I mostly use a single speedlight for events and street photography. Yeah, I actually employ a speedlight for street photography. I'm messed up like that.

When I have used multi-flash setups, I've found TTL to be totally counterproductive and some of that is likely user error. I just have better results choosing my flash power manually whether it's one light or three.

I've owned brand and third party speedlights. I honestly can't say there's much of a difference except that the name brand lights are more durable, easier to use, and usually less prone to overheating.
 
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bunnspecial

macrumors G3
May 3, 2014
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When I'm dealing with a "modern" camera, I honestly dislike using manual mode other than in very, very specific circumstances. Those specific circumstances are either in "tricky" light where it would be easy to fool the meter and I instead work out the exposure that works and stick to it, and second when I'm using studio strobes(in general, the aperture and ISO determine the exposure-the shutter speed doesn't matter as long as it's at the sync speed or slower and longer than the strobe duration, and not so long as to allow ambient to have any impact).

Truth be told, I see many folks who want to "brag" about using manual mode but all they're doing is just pointing the camera at the scene and nulling the meter reading-if that's all you're doing then you might as well be using one of the automated modes as you're still just letting the camera guide you to do what it thinks is right.

On the other hand, I know others who prefer to use manual mode in place of dialing in exposure compensation-I can actually understand and appreciate that philosophy, and have actually done it myself on occasion. Of course, when doing that, it CAN certainly be the case that relatively simple lighting you can use the meter reading indicated, but there again you also need to be able to judge when that's correct or not.

I tend to use aperture priority for most "normal" situations for myself, and on digital use auto ISO.

With that said, I have plenty of cameras that I use regularly that only work in manual mode, or work best in manual mode, or in some cases don't even have a built in meter. I learned on Canon's "match needle" system, and when I first switched to Nikon I was actually somewhat uncomfortable with the "center the needle" meter on the F/F2, or the 3 LED system used on the FM/FM2/F2SB/F2AS. I've since come to appreciate both systems a bit more, especially now that I know that the "notch" is 1 stop wide(so 1/2 over/under is easy to set). Also, the 3 LED system illuminates two LEDs for 1/2 over or under, so it's quite easy to extrapolate a full stop over/under from that.

All of my Hasselblad lenses are "EV lenses" which are actually designed for you to directly set an EV value rather than a shutter speed and aperture. The Minolta meters I prefer are easy to set to read out directly in EVs, and of course depending on what I'm doing the EV scale makes it easy to apply appropriate compensation(incident readings rarely if ever get compensation, while spot meter readings are considered in aggregate to arrive at an appropriate EV for the scene). Once you've set an EV, it's almost like having a "shiftable program" mode on a mode modern camera, since the shutter speed and aperture ring are locked together and turning them doesn't change the exposure.

So, I guess for me the answer is it depends on the exact situation and the camera I'm using, but in a round about way I'll also say that, where possible, I typically use aperture priority.
[doublepost=1550989829][/doublepost]
Zoom into this photo, and you can see that his speed graphic is set to f4

Of course, it is possible that I'm spoiled by Nikon auto lenses.

Perhaps he'd just been composing on the ground glass-the glass on most Graphics is pretty poor, and good luck seeing much of anything at f/8.

That aside, I can't SEE the aperture scale on the lens, but my best guess would be that it's a 127mm Ektar, which has a maximum aperture of f/4.7. The other common "standard" lens on Graphics was a 135mm Wollensak Raptar, which is also f/4.7, and 4x5 lenses often get even slower as you move away from these focal lengths. I'm nitpicking, though :)

Not too long ago, I picked up a fun little Auto-Nikkor-a 55mm f/3.5 Micro with a "compensating aperture." Like most other MF Micro-Nikkors, it focuses to 1:2. This has an extra feature, though, of opening up the aperture as you focus closer to compensate for the light loss at close distances. Of course, it only works at less than maximum aperture. The lens design dates to the days before TTL meters, and was intended to make getting the correct exposure at macro distances easy. Nikon quit doing it right around the time they started shipping a TTL prism for the F. I went looking for one because I'd been told that it's optimized for around 1:10(newer and newer "micro" lenses have moved their optimization closer to infinity both from my research and actual testing), but the compensating aperture IS a nice feature since I'm often shooting macro under studio strobes with an external meter. The compensating aperture makes in-camera metering interesting.
 

jerwin

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That aside, I can't SEE the aperture scale on the lens, but my best guess would be that it's a 127mm Ektar, which has a maximum aperture of f/4.7. The other common "standard" lens on Graphics was a 135mm Wollensak Raptar, which is also f/4.7, and 4x5 lenses often get even slower as you move away from these focal lengths. I'm nitpicking, though

found a better pic

Kodak-Ektar 127mm f4.7
 

F-Train

macrumors 68020
Apr 22, 2015
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CA1DADB9-A8E0-4F66-B4BB-717DC2C6B2C0.jpeg


Zoom into this photo, and you can see that his speed graphic is set to f4

Above is a better photo of the lens.

As noted in subsequent posts, Weegee had it wide open at f/4.7.

After I take a photo with my large format camera, which is what a Speed Graphic is (it uses 4x5 film), I return the lens to wide open as a matter of routine.

The reason is that I compose on the camera’s ground glass, and when I do I want as much light as possible coming through the lens and hitting the ground glass.

That said, I expect that Weegee mostly used the Speed Graphic’s wire frame “sportsfinder” or viewfinder to compose news photos. Using the ground glass would defeat his whole approach to news photography, and at night, when he took many of his most famous photographs, would be very difficult if not impossible*. The whole point of having a sportsfinder and viewfinder on a Speed Graphic is to avoid the need to compose on the ground glass.

In any event, the photo in this thread is pretty obviously a portrait of Weegee rather than a candid of him about to take a photo.

The Wikipedia article says that Weegee actually typically shot at f/16. I’d have to look at a depth of field table, but the reference to f/8, assuming that Weegee coined the expression and in fact shot at f/16, may be a “translation” to 35mm, where the equivalent of a 127mm lens on a 4x5 camera is about 40mm. While 40mm lenses exist, 35mm is more common, and is often used in street photography, together with zone focusing (which was the technique that Weegee used), at f/8 or f/11. For more on zone focusing, see post #31.

* When a standard large format camera is used to make a photograph at night, the photo is typically composed and focused during daylight, with the camera left on its tripod until nighttime, or lights are used to help with composition and focus.
 
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kallisti

macrumors 68000
Apr 22, 2003
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6,670
Hey Guys,

I’m 3 months into taking photography seriously I have a Sony A7iii with the 28-70 kit lens.

I’ve had 2 lessons.

1. Guy was a fan of aperture priority and encouraged it
2. Guy was a fan of manual and encouraged it.

I’ve been researching it and it feels quite a diversive topic and wonder what everyone thinks about aperture priority here?

My opinion as a novice is that AP is great for family days out and portrait stuff.

I prefer manual for if my daughter is running about and I need the higher shutter speed for the obvious reasons. I was using manual iso but must admit I’ve been pretty happy with auto iso results as well. If it does get it wrong it’s usually salvageable in post.

While I’m new.. does anyone recommend any Instagram accounts to follow and tutorials on you tube to follow? Or nice presets they recommend for warm natural colored skin tones?

I think my biggest problem as a newbie is Lightroom as I can’t make up my mind on a style I like! I’d like to pick one and stick to it to a certain extent and maybe have a bit of fun with instagram in the off chance I can become famous and quit my day job lol

Interesting responses thus far. I'll add my own thoughts (which are similar to some others expressed in the thread).

I also have a 4 year old :)

My first suggestion with your Sony is to use eye AF when photographing your daughter. It works really, really well (at least most of the time ;)).

Back on topic, I personally use aperture priority most of the time for generic subjects or for pics of my son. With the exception of specific subjects (i.e. subjects in motion), aperture is the most important part of the triad (aperture, shutter speed, ISO) for how I want to creatively control the exposure most of the time.

I set limits on how the camera makes adjustments when shooting in aperture priority mode. When taking pics of my son, I've learned over time that I generally need a shutter speed of 1/125th sec to freeze (or mostly freeze) his motion in generic situations. So I have a cutoff of 1/125th sec set for aperture priority mode for whatever camera I am using (Sony or Nikon). I also use auto ISO with cutoffs set to what I consider an acceptable cutoff for the camera I am using (usually 1600).

I set the aperture I want at the time of capture (either for creative reasons or because I know I am in low light and need to shoot wide open) and let the camera do the math. If the exposure reading is such that my max ISO is exceeded, it lowers the shutter speed (which is exactly what I would do if I was shooting in manual mode). I am comfortable shooting in manual mode, but shooting in aperture priority with the limits I have set automates what I would do anyway.

An important point to remember when shooting young kiddos is that vibration reduction (or IBIS in the case of the Sony) will allow you to get sharp (or reasonably sharp) photos of static subjects at slower shutter speeds. The key word here is "static". 4 year olds often aren't static and a slower shutter speed than ~1/125th sec will result in subject blur not because of camera shake but because of subject motion. VR or IBIS can't fix this. There are hard limits as to how low your shutter speed can get for even slowly moving subjects if you are attempting to maintain sharpness.

The only solution in this case is to use external lighting (i.e. speedlights or strobes), a topic unto itself :)
 
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jerwin

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It really does sound as if the PASM dilemma is overshadowed by elaborate focusing controls-- at least with Sony. Perhaps it's different with landscapes. Alas, the natural environs where I live are too dull and uninteresting to make for compelling landscape photographs, ad so I haven't even invested in the right lenses, much less ND filters.

Blue hour? Or sleep in? Decisions, Decisions!
 
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Ledgem

macrumors 68020
Jan 18, 2008
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My first suggestion with your Sony is to use eye AF when photographing your daughter. It works really, really well (at least most of the time ;)).
I'm two years behind on the game as I have a two-year old, but while this doesn't relate to the operation mode, I agree with the use of a face detection feature. It sounds like some sort of gimmick, and yes, there are rare times when my camera (Olympus E-M1 Mk2) "sees" a face in background blur... but it's really useful otherwise. I'd say it works perfectly 99% of the time (and from what I hear, Sony's is even better?). I tend to have my autofocus points active in a limited, cross-type pattern. It's usually not a problem to quickly shift the autofocus points around when working with static or slow-moving subjects for the purposes of reframing, yet toddlers are anything but that. It's nice to have the camera able to focus anywhere in the frame, and targeting what I'd probably be shifting my autofocus points to (or re-framing to). You can focus more on the composition and quickly get a shot without having to fiddle with things. Very useful feature that showcases a strength of mirrorless over traditional mirror-based cameras (not that many argue about that anymore).

Blue hour? Or sleep in? Decisions, Decisions!
I thought blue hour just referred to dusk? Unless you're a night-shifter... ;)
 

jerwin

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I thought blue hour just referred to dusk? Unless you're a night-shifter.

ah!

The blue hour (from French l'heure bleue)[1][a] is the period of twilight in the morning or evening, during the civil and nautical stages, when the Sun is at a significant depth below the horizonand residual, indirect sunlight takes on a predominantly blue shade.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_hour

so there are two blue hours, and two golden hours. See? not my forté.
 

F-Train

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I got my sailing accreditation in French when I was living in Paris and I don't think that I've seen the expression l'heure bleue since.

Fun to run into it again.
 
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bunnspecial

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Although not about Aperture, watched this interesting video on ISO yesterday.

It raises a good point, but does miss one key point in that changing the ISO(can we please stop saying eye-so? It's a 3 letter abbreviation, not a word) in the camera changes the gain setting on the analog amplifier before the ADC converter on the signal.

Even though a lot of Sony-produced sensors now are ISO invariant, AFAIK this still goes on. You can also see, to a large extent, when this quits happening. Nikon labels them "Hi" modes, but you can definitely tell that they are a "software" push instead of increasing the gain on the hardware.

BTW, film ISO, which technically is given as two values-one on the old ASA scale and one on the DIN scale(i.e. ISO 400/27º) has a very specific definition that involves plotting the density vs. exposure and finding a specific point on the curve. I guess that I had made the mistake of assuming that digital ISO was an approximation of that, but as the video shows it's wrong. I should have picked up on that a while ago-I would often set up the strobes, take a meter reading, and find that at best it was a starting point for digital capture and would also vary from camera to camera. By contrast, under the exact same conditions, I could take the meter-indicated exposure, shoot it on transparency film, and end up with exposure that was pretty much dead on.
 

F-Train

macrumors 68020
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Although not about Aperture, watched this interesting video on ISO yesterday.

I particularly found the comparisons of pictures at the same settings on different cameras interesting.

This is the same guy who says that everybody should shoot video at 60 frames per second.

Anybody who shoots film is well aware of the fact that a film's rating is a guideline. Indeed, there are countless threads on the internet in which people debate whether a given film should be exposed at its recommenced ISO or at a different ISO.

That's why you're supposed to get to know the film stock that you use in terms of how it reacts to both exposure and processing. If you develop a few rolls of film, you quickly learn to see the whole process from exposure through development as a continuum. This is elementary stuff, film 101.

When it comes to metering, I like to use incident light readings, which cameras don't offer. Consequently, I use a Sekonic L-758DR light meter when I'm deciding exposure, regardless of whether I'm shooting film or digital. The meter does a perfectly good job of helping me with exposure, including for my digital cameras, which are as diverse as a Leica M (Typ 240) and a Sony RX0.

One of the meter's features is that you can create a profile for a specific digital camera, the whole point of which is to take into account sensor differences. This has been true of this meter since it came out well over a decade ago. Where has this YouTube "photography expert" been?

Surely it's not news that you need to learn how your digital camera behaves in terms of ISO and metering.

Professional video cameras do indeed use the concept of gain. It makes more sense intellectually, but somehow people manage to make pretty good videos with cameras that don''t use the concept. A lot of those people, probably a significant majority, have also failed to see the wisdom of shooting video, as a matter of course, at 60fps.

Sekonic L-758DR light meter, with features that this YouTuber is apparently blissfully unaware of:

sekonic.jpg
 
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