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Hmac

macrumors 68020
May 30, 2007
2,134
4
Midwest USA
I don't want to start an argument, but SLC Flyfishing does have a bit of a point. Your post is so full of misinformation that I was going to post a reply to it, but thought others would probably do it.
Uh huh. Please be more specific about what you consider to be misinformation. Perhaps I can clear up your confusion (unlikely, I agree).

None of this is new information, nor a unique viewpoint, and has been hashed and re-hashed at DPR and Nikonians for years.
 

yeroen

macrumors 6502a
Mar 8, 2007
944
2
Cambridge, MA
Why is that, because we all still have 100mb Hard drives or something?:)



Aren't you contradicting what you said in the first quote? It sounds like 25mp will do nothing but clog up our drives but won't if they made a medium format version, you're not making any sense. Do you know how expensive it would be to make such a sensor at MF size (take a clue from Phase One or Hassleblad)? People are already assuming this SLR is going to cost a bomb as it is.:eek:

I'm making perfect sense. With a MF sized sensor, you'd be putting those 25MP to good use. Otherwise, it's just a marketing gimmick.
 

SLC Flyfishing

Suspended
Nov 19, 2007
1,486
1,717
Portland, OR
I'm making perfect sense. With a MF sized sensor, you'd be putting those 25MP to good use. Otherwise, it's just a marketing gimmick.

Care to explain to us exactly why 25 MP in a FF sensor is not going to be put to good use, but would be in a MF sensor? That just doesn't make immediate sense to me, but I'm open to be enlightened. Perhaps it's because you think it's going to be too noisy or something?

SLC
 

CrackedButter

macrumors 68040
Jan 15, 2003
3,221
0
51st State of America
I'm making perfect sense. With a MF sized sensor, you'd be putting those 25MP to good use. Otherwise, it's just a marketing gimmick.

It's all about context, you were suggesting that a 25mp device was too much for todays storage so what difference would it make whether it was inside a 35mm or MF body?

In any case in response to such a device there probably is a legitimate need for a digital MF rangefinder but I think you'll find that film is still popular and more durable than a digital version.
 

Abstract

macrumors Penryn
Dec 27, 2002
24,870
902
Location Location Location
Uh huh. Please be more specific about what you consider to be misinformation. Perhaps I can clear up your confusion (unlikely, I agree).

I think you're the one who's confused.

Likely the compromises will be too great in terms of cost, battery life, burst rate, write times, and editing with large numbers of huge image files.

That's not a problem for those who even contemplate purchasing one of these systems.

Cost? You mean a DSLR with the highest resolution is going to be expensive? Nobody actually interested in this end of the market will be surprised. The market interested in this type of camera will:

1. Know this before they take a careful look.
2. Be able to afford a fairly decent computer. They're not going to be editing on a Mac Mini, if that's what you're implying. Harddrive space is dirt cheap nowadays. The 7200 rpm drives are actually getting faster due to the denser platters. An octo-core Mac isn't unrealistic, nor is it cost prohibitive. It's downright cheap. After all, this is a serious camera for serious business. The standard Mac Pro configuration is Octo-core, and it only costs around $2800. Add on a few upgrades (not through Apple), and you may spend......$3500 to $4000.

Burst Rate? This is mostly a studio camera, although it would be useful for landscapes as well. Nobody is going to buy this camera and run around with it to shoot sports. How fast a burst rate do you need for studio work and/or landscapes?

3. Not care about these "compromises", as they obviously want the best results and have a specific application that requires such a high resolution.


There's a point of diminishing returns where the additional amount of detail you might get from such a large full-frame sensor is low enough that it's just not worth it to have.

Not worth it for who? You mean, "Not worth it for me".

Serious considerations of this camera would have determined this by now. Sure, you may find a few rich people who just buy it because it's one of the most expensive cameras on the market, and has the largest number of Megapixels, but the majority will know what they need. The extra resolution will obviously be required for potential customers.

True, there is a subset of photographers who could use such camera, but the segment of the dSLR market that would spend $8000 on such a camera is pretty small. The average dSLR buyer simply can't make use of what such a camera has to offer and would never spend the money.
Thank you, Captain Obvious. The size of the market that would spend $600,000 on a car is also quite small. Did you know that?

What do you think the market is for this camera? They're not making this camera for the typical consumer. I don't even know why you mention "average consumer" in your explanation. You clearly don't know the target market. Canon knew that this wouldn't be moving millions of their 1Ds 16 MP and 21 MP cameras. Nikon and Sony know this too, and I bet they're still going into that market soon.

No, the average consumer won't be purchasing this camera.

No, the average consumer couldn't make use of what this camera has to offer, nor would they need to. This is why the average consumer is not the target market. That's why you're not the target market.

Thanks again, Captain Obvious.

Nikon's current sensor lineup is designed by Nikon. Just as they worked with Sony on the LBCAST sensor (which is a Nikon patent, not Sony), I'm sure they'll work with them on this 24 mp sensor, and the sensor that Nikon ultimately uses will be different than the one that Sony uses.

The sensor used in the D40, D40X, D60, D80, and D300 are made by Sony. Nikon only gets some say into several of the specifics, but it's still Sony technology in there. All their point and shoot sensors are made by Sony. That's why I said you're wrong.

The D3 sensor really is designed by Nikon, but hired someone else to manufacture it for them. They rely on Sony for the rest of the lineup. Nikon do have a lot of say with regards to Sony's DSLR sensors, as they are Sony's biggest customers. However, these are small details, such as the minute difference between the D200 and D80 sensor. Even with regards to my D300, Nikon could only make the D300 as noise-free as Sony's technology allows them to. That's why the sensor in the D300 uses Sony's patented noise reduction process during read-out to minimize noise. The only difference between the D300 and A700 is the processing engine done to produce the JPEGs (the RAW data is essentially the same), and a very slight difference in the number of "effective" pixels utilized by each camera (the sensor is a 13.1 MP sensor, from which they use a bit less than that).

Nikon and Sony have always had a close business relationship, and everyone assumes that Sony makes Nikon's sensors, but it's never been announced as such by Nikon.

What?
 

Abstract

macrumors Penryn
Dec 27, 2002
24,870
902
Location Location Location
Yeah, I've always liked fujifilm cameras too, but as a group I'd still pick Sony, it doesn't matter though, it's just to say that they make nice cameras and that they are to a lot of people, the best out there! They are certainly just as nice as anything Canon has, maybe not as popular, but certainly just as nice!

SLC

I'd have to agree for the most part. It also depends on what you want from a point and shoot. If you're looking for high contrast and punchy colours (like most consumers), then Sony point and shoots aren't so bad. They're also not the noisiest of the bunch, either.

That, and they made the DSC-R1. That alone deserves respect.

The other company I like is Panasonic. I would probably get a Panasonic if I was in the market for a small point and shoot, but I don't want their sensor or Venus engine. It's just not the best. However, I don't expect the World from a small point and shoot, and a Panasonic has the features I want, and would definitely get the job done.

Right now, I have the F31fd, similar to what Cube linked to. ;)
 

SLC Flyfishing

Suspended
Nov 19, 2007
1,486
1,717
Portland, OR
Right now, I have the F31fd, similar to what Cube linked to. ;)

That one is very very nice, I sent a few people that way when they asked me for my opinion. I've only got a crappy old Pentax Optio S50 and it isn't worth the $40 i'd probably get for it if I were to sell it now. I guess it was pretty nice in it's day though. My younger brother has a Sony 7 megapixel P&S, it only takes the memory stick format cards which I'm not too keen on; but I did snap a photo of my daughter at a Pumkin patch a few years back that I was very pleased with. Lighting was perfect admittedly, but the camera nailed the shot. My Optio would probably have muffed it terribly!

SLC
 

SLC Flyfishing

Suspended
Nov 19, 2007
1,486
1,717
Portland, OR
Just for kicks, here it is! Granted with the DSLR I would have shot for a blurry background but no P&S can do that so I don't hold that against it!

SLC
 

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Abstract

macrumors Penryn
Dec 27, 2002
24,870
902
Location Location Location
Right. Tell me where I'm wrong. I've already wasted my time explaining why your ridiculous reasoning is so far from being right (ie: Duh...the average consumer doesn't need a 24 MP camera......duhh).
 

ChrisA

macrumors G5
Jan 5, 2006
12,831
2,034
Redondo Beach, California
It's all about context, you were suggesting that a 25mp device was too much for todays storage so what difference would it make whether it was inside a 35mm or MF body?

We assume that if the 25MP sensor is inside an MF body that the sensor would be physically larger then 36x24mm. Maybe it would be 48 mm square. A 48mm square 25MP sensor would have very low noise and outstanding dynamic range while 36x24mm 25MP sensor would only have "good" noise and dynamic range. With the larger image size you get different depth of field and perspective too.

Even with film 35mm camers were a compromize for cost and portibility, the larger formats always have better quality.
 

CrackedButter

macrumors 68040
Jan 15, 2003
3,221
0
51st State of America
We assume that if the 25MP sensor is inside an MF body that the sensor would be physically larger then 36x24mm. Maybe it would be 48 mm square. A 48mm square 25MP sensor would have very low noise and outstanding dynamic range while 36x24mm 25MP sensor would only have "good" noise and dynamic range. With the larger image size you get different depth of field and perspective too.

Even with film 35mm camers were a compromize for cost and portibility, the larger formats always have better quality.

I'm talking about storage concerns. A 25mp sensor on a 35mm is going to generate the same same file as a 25mp sensor on a MF camera. I wasn't talking about the sensor quality characteristics between the two camera formats.
 

Grimace

macrumors 68040
Feb 17, 2003
3,568
226
with Hamburglar.
Gettin' kinda heated here folks! :cool:

The three main DSLR manufacturing markets (consumer, prosumer/enthusiast, professional) all appeal to a wide range of end users. Some professionals use bodies that might be considered "consumer" and some consumers use bodies that might be considered "professional".

The bottom line is, there are established markets to which the manufacturers cater. They may not all be for you, but they would fade away completely if no one was interested in buying.

Just sayin...
 

SLC Flyfishing

Suspended
Nov 19, 2007
1,486
1,717
Portland, OR
Gettin' kinda heated here folks! :cool:

The three main DSLR manufacturing markets (consumer, prosumer/enthusiast, professional) all appeal to a wide range of end users. Some professionals use bodies that might be considered "consumer" and some consumers use bodies that might be considered "professional".

The bottom line is, there are established markets to which the manufacturers cater. They may not all be for you, but they would fade away completely if no one was interested in buying.

Just sayin...

Well said Grimace! There's obviously a market for this camera, Canon and Nikon sell a few FF Über-DSLR's now and then. Sony want's a piece of that market too for one reason or another. I doubt if they have plans of selling them by the train load, it's probably more of a status symbol for them to have a Full Frame DSLR associated with their brand. And to have the one with the most resolution will have a lot of naive camera shoppers assuming that Sony must make the best cameras!

This camera will have pixel densities of about 29,000 pixels per square millimeter. Which is still less dense (larger well depth) than the Nikon D300 which has a density of nearly 33,000 pixels per square millimeter. So I don't automatically buy ChrisA's argument that it will have only "good" dynamic range and noise levels. It may very well be above average, even for it's class.


SLC
 

harcosparky

macrumors 68020
Jan 14, 2008
2,055
2
Well said Grimace! There's obviously a market for this camera, Canon and Nikon sell a few FF Über-DSLR's now and then. Sony want's a piece of that market too for one reason or another. I doubt if they have plans of selling them by the train load, it's probably more of a status symbol for them to have a Full Frame DSLR associated with their brand. And to have the one with the most resolution will have a lot of naive camera shoppers assuming that Sony must make the best cameras!

This camera will have pixel densities of about 29,000 pixels per square millimeter. Which is still less dense (larger well depth) than the Nikon D300 which has a density of nearly 33,000 pixels per square millimeter. So I don't automatically buy ChrisA's argument that it will have only "good" dynamic range and noise levels. It may very well be above average, even for it's class.


SLC


Reading some of the arguments against a 25 MP DSLR it seems that some think technology is at a standstill in some areas while it moves on in others.

Who is to say that with the introduction of a 25 MP DSLR, that there are not some other advances to improve dynamic range and noise.

Go back to the 1.5-3 Megapixel DSLR's .... do you think at that time they would have believed we'd have 12 MP DSLR's performing as well as we do today? I remember back then one company saying they had the best sensor because at 3 MP pixel density the pixel was larger and this 'faster' than if they had to put 4 MP on the same sensor format.

Bottom line - is there a market for a 25MP camera costing $8,000 - $10,000? Only a fool would say there wasn't considering some have paid almost that much for a 10-12 MP camera.

Canons EOS ID MkIII which was about 10MP has been reborn the EOS IDs MKIII and is about 22MP and I believe they both had the same MSRP. Though the 1D can be had for around $5,000 the 1Ds is around $7500+

I couldn't justify spending $8K for a 25MP DSLR in 35mm format .... but boy some of those MF bodies are tempting the devil out of me.
 

Grimace

macrumors 68040
Feb 17, 2003
3,568
226
with Hamburglar.
Canons EOS ID MkIII which was about 10MP has been reborn the EOS IDs MKIII and is about 22MP and I believe they both had the same MSRP. Though the 1D can be had for around $5,000 the 1Ds is around $7500+

I'm not sure what this "reborn" stuff is but the 1D Mark III is ~$4000 and the 1Ds Mark III is ~$8000. The 1D and 1Ds series have always been aimed at very different audiences and have had very different MSRPs.
 

harcosparky

macrumors 68020
Jan 14, 2008
2,055
2
I'm not sure what this "reborn" stuff is but the 1D Mark III is ~$4000 and the 1Ds Mark III is ~$8000. The 1D and 1Ds series have always been aimed at very different audiences and have had very different MSRPs.

Than the article I read on the 1Ds either misstated the numbers or I misread them. As far as being aimed at different markets, I see them both in the camera shops where I go.

I recently just bought the 5D, and I think for me that's it as far as 35mm DSLR's. I have my sights on one the MF format units. ( Mamiya 645ZD comes to mind, but $10K - of course that is with one lens ) )

I can't wait for the day when digital truly equals film, hopefully I will be alive when that happens. For that to happens it is gonna take a TON of MP's as well as some other changes inside the camera.

One of my 'wish list' items is a 35mm format DSLR that does Black & White ( I know there are tools to convert color digital images to B&W - but it's not as good ) ... Then maybe I can retire my EOS 3 and film scanner! :D
 

SLC Flyfishing

Suspended
Nov 19, 2007
1,486
1,717
Portland, OR
Than the article I read on the 1Ds either misstated the numbers or I misread them. As far as being aimed at different markets, I see them both in the camera shops where I go.

I recently just bought the 5D, and I think for me that's it as far as 35mm DSLR's. I have my sights on one the MF format units.

I can't wait for the day when digital truly equals film, hopefully I will be alive when that happens. For that to happens it is gonna take a TON of MP's as well as some other changes inside the camera.

One of my 'wish list' items is a 35mm format DSLR that does Black & White ... Then maybe I can retire my EOS 3 and film scanner! :D

When we say different markets we mean different types of shooters not different camera retailers. One is aimed at studio pro's and wedding/event photogs etc; the other is aimed more toward sports and wildlife shooters because it's blazingly fast.

And you already have a 35 mm format DSLR that does black and white! You know about desaturation right? :confused:

SLC
 

Grimace

macrumors 68040
Feb 17, 2003
3,568
226
with Hamburglar.
There are some big disadvantages to medium format (ISO, lenses) that keep it from being an all-in-one competitor to DSLRs from Nikon, Canon, etc.

And, medium format is not better simply because of more pixels. We should all know that lesson by now.

Better pictures ≠ more pixels
Better pictures = better pixels

Dynamic range, color accuracy, etc. make for better images.
 

CrackedButter

macrumors 68040
Jan 15, 2003
3,221
0
51st State of America
There are some big disadvantages to medium format (ISO, lenses) that keep it from being an all-in-one competitor to DSLRs from Nikon, Canon, etc.

And, medium format is not better simply because of more pixels. We should all know that lesson by now.

Better pictures ≠ more pixels
Better pictures = better pixels

Dynamic range, color accuracy, etc. make for better images.

I think for medium format digital to be better than film, the whole device itself has to equal or surpass the durability of film that means loosening its dependence from power (better batteries) and has to be a less complex device. If i'm on a shoot in the heartlands of say Russia, where can I get a digital MF camera fixed compared to say a film version which camera shops have more experience with?
 

harcosparky

macrumors 68020
Jan 14, 2008
2,055
2
And you already have a 35 mm format DSLR that does black and white! You know about desaturation right? :confused:

SLC

If only 'desaturation' was the trick. There is a good write-up about this in, I beleive the Feb 2008 issue of Shutterbug - in fact there was a lot written about it in a couple of articles.

It's kind of funny that when you convert an image from color to B&W in Adobe CS3 ( Image>Adjustment>Black&White ), after the color has been removed you adjust the " Reds, Yellows, Greens, Cyans, Blues, and Magentas " to manipulate the image to get the desired results. You see, even after removing the colors, they still exist.

I like the 'hybrid' idea .... shoot on film .... digitize with scanner... and print.

For B&W this gives me the results I desire with minimal effort. Color will be digital all the way, but for the time being I will shoot and scan B&W.

When I first took up photography back in the early 1970's, B&W was all we could do because in Korea nobody have color darkroom setups. Even on the larger Air Force bases all that was availed to us was B&W darkroom equipment.

Then again this is the " Digital Photography " forum on Mac Rumors so maybe film should not be discussed here.
 

Grimace

macrumors 68040
Feb 17, 2003
3,568
226
with Hamburglar.
When I first took up photography back in the early 1070's, B&W was all we could do because in Korea nobody have color darkroom setups. Even on the larger Air Force bases all that was availed to us was B&W darkroom equipment..

WOW! You definitely win for most experienced photographer. You have a 920 year lead over me! :D
 
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