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...When an SSD fails, it isn't "all over", it's time to restore from your backup...

He was simply referring to the well-documented tendency of SSDs to fail totally, non-recoverably, and without warning. E.g:

http://www.computerworld.com/articl...o-die--as-linus-torvalds-just-discovered.html

"SSDs...when they do fail, they can die without warning"

http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/data-recovered-failed-ssd/

"An SSD often does not give much warning before it fails...When an SSD suddenly goes silent, it’s bad news....If a solid state drive fails there’s not much that you, the consumer, can do to recover it."

AppleFan360's "all over" statement was strictly in line with the above-described SSD failure modes, and had nothing whatsoever to do with whether backup exists. He simply meant it's "all over" regarding recovering data from the SSD.

Of course Fusion Drive has an SSD so this would also apply there to some degree. However most of the data would be on the HDD, which might possibly be recovered.
 
Apparently you didn't read my other posts. Not everyone keeps backups. Simply telling someone to recover from their backup when they don't keep one is not very helpful.

Telling them they can easily get their data back from a crashed disk is far less helpful.

Also, it's not nonsense to think its easy to recover data from a failed HDD. I've done it.

Just because you have done it, doesn't mean it's always possible, nor always easy. As I say, if it's AES128 encrypted, then it is IMPOSSIBLE. And if there's a mechanical failure, full recovery is also very unlikely indeed.

I find it funny how people these days take every precaution against hackers from recovering data then turn around and preach how difficult it is to get data off a failed hard drive. Make up your minds.

I don't need to make up my mind. AES128 Encrypted data - e.g. bitlocker or filevault - (with a vaguely sensible password) is indecipherable, end of discussion.

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Of course Fusion Drive has an SSD so this would also apply there to some degree. However most of the data would be on the HDD, which might possibly be recovered.

"might possibly" is a good way of putting it, I agree.
 
Bottom line, I do not want anything inside my computer spinning at 7200 RPM. Or 5400 for that matter.

Fan spinning at 12-2400, well, that gets a pass. For now :)

With Intel's new Flash Memory, this will all be a moot point soon enough.

SSD FTW! Internal! External!
 
Bottom line, I do not want anything inside my computer spinning at 7200 RPM. Or 5400 for that matter.

Fan spinning at 12-2400, well, that gets a pass. For now :)

With Intel's new Flash Memory, this will all be a moot point soon enough.

SSD FTW! Internal! External!

Yes, a FTW is a valid argument indeed. Welcome to the internet.

As for not wanting anything to spin in your computer - and why not, may I ask? The FD is completely silent (the fan is, by contrast, quite audible at 2000+ rpm). You don't hear the drive spinning. I'm sorry, but "I don't want anything inside spinning" is just as valid as "I don't want any internal logic board that is not painted black inside my computer" or something like that. It's one of those "just because" reasons. My guess is you didn't even try a Fusion Drive. Like most people here - you payed good money for an SSD and are now trying to prove that anything else is a mistake. But it's not.

And I'm glad the fans spinning get your pass for now, because they will probably be spinning in high performance computers for the next 10 generations at least. As for the Intel/Micron 3D NAND tech, yes, that is coming and, as everyone knows, will replace HDDs and Fusion Drives and all that in the future. Maybe in a couple of years. And the Fusion Drive will go down in history as a great bridge between two technologies that offered best of both worlds. However, we're talking about today and now in this thread.
 
Seems to me you're spending a good deal of time constantly reaffirming your choice of a Fusion Drive, when it's simply a case that you cannot afford a larger SSD.

If I still had my old Mac Pro, I still wouldn't have a Seagate hard drive inside it. And that's my point, Apple has gone with the cheapest manufacturer to put hard drives inside their Macs, a manufacturer that was so confident of it's quality that it reduced warranties from two years to one year.
 
Seems to me you're spending a good deal of time constantly reaffirming your choice of a Fusion Drive, when it's simply a case that you cannot afford a larger SSD.

How can I not afford it when we're discussing FD vs 256Gb SSD which cost exactly the same amount of money? I'm not even comparing it to larger SSDs, which I agree are better solutions for those who don't mind paying more. How is this not coming through? I mean, it is in the title of the topic, for crying out loud. I get tired of repeating this: if you don't want to spend money on a 512Gb or 1Tb SSD, for most people (not all, but most) a Fusion Drive is a better solution than a 256Gb SSD. All I'm saying. Ok?

Also - there is a lot of misinformation concerning Fusion Drives (heat, noise, etc.) so I like to dispute that.

Nice try, though :)
 
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How can I not afford it when we're discussing FD vs 256Gb SSD which cost exactly the same amount of money? I'm not even comparing it to larger SSDs, which I agree are better solutions for those who don't mind paying more. How is this not coming through? I mean, it is in the title of the topic, for crying out loud. I get tired of repeating this: if you don't want to spend money on a 512Gb or 1Tb SSD, for most people (not all, but most) a Fusion Drive is a better solution than a 256Gb SSD. All I'm saying. Ok?

Also - there is a lot of misinformation concerning Fusion Drives (heat, noise, etc.) so I like to dispute that.

Nice try, though :)

Once again, saying that Fusion drive is better than a 256 GB SSD with external storage is simply not true. Your only valid argument is that the 256 GB with external USB 3 storage is not worth the extra $100 (cost of the external storage) over Fusion drive because the everyday difference of a half as large SSD with slower write speeds is minimal for some people.

Nice try, though :)
 
Once again, saying that Fusion drive is better than a 256 GB SSD with external storage is simply not true. Your only valid argument is that the 256 GB with external USB 3 storage is not worth the extra $100 (cost of the external storage) over Fusion drive because the everyday difference of a half as large SSD with slower write speeds is minimal for some people.

Nice try, though :)

That's not really the point though.

The big idea is that 256GB SSD + Ext Drive, mean that the user must do manual management of his files and what goes where, and it is especially true is the user doesn't want to "waste" almost 3/4 of his SSD Drive storage space by having only OS + Apps on it.

Fusion Drive does that management for you. And that probably have more value than being able to "predict" the speed of a particular file read/write to most user.
 
That's not really the point though.

The big idea is that 256GB SSD + Ext Drive, mean that the user must do manual management of his files and what goes where, and it is especially true is the user doesn't want to "waste" almost 3/4 of his SSD Drive storage space by having only OS + Apps on it.

Fusion Drive does that management for you. And that probably have more value than being able to "predict" the speed of a particular file read/write to most user.

Even though I hate the idea of mixing an SSD boot partition with an HDD (due to the increased chance of failure and possibility of rarely used system files/apps winding up on the HDD) it is actually possible to fuse an SSD and external HDD if so desired.
 
Once again, saying that Fusion drive is better than a 256 GB SSD with external storage is simply not true. Your only valid argument is that the 256 GB with external USB 3 storage is not worth the extra $100 (cost of the external storage) over Fusion drive because the everyday difference of a half as large SSD with slower write speeds is minimal for some people.

Nice try, though :)


The 'nice try' part was intended for the claim that I am praising a Fusion Drive because I can't afford an SSD and not because I believe it to be a better solution. This is not the case which I explained (as you say, the difference is only a $100 for the external storage, so it's not a case of not being to afford it)

As for your claim, well, that is certainly debatable. I think you missed the point - while the SSD is half as large and, perhaps, slower in a Fusion Drive (even if it is, it is not noticeable outside benchmark tests) - my argument is that most users won't notice that difference and, in addition to paying a $100 less, they don't have to manage the drives themselves and think about what goes where. Also, they don't have mechanical external drives taking up ports and space (and creating the danger of accidentally plugging them off while using resulting in data corruption).

For most people, there will be less things to manage for less money - so that makes it a better solution IF the performance is the same or very similar. Now, we may argue if the performance is indeed the same. For some people, it is not the same, because of their workflows and type and requirements of data they work with. But for most of the people, including myself, the performance is the same (which I can confirm comparing it to an SSD-only MacBook I have). So, the way I see it, if you disagree it's because you think the performance of a Fusion Drive is just not the same or similar as an SSD and this should really be the main focus of our debate :)

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That's not really the point though.

The big idea is that 256GB SSD + Ext Drive, mean that the user must do manual management of his files and what goes where, and it is especially true is the user doesn't want to "waste" almost 3/4 of his SSD Drive storage space by having only OS + Apps on it.

Fusion Drive does that management for you. And that probably have more value than being able to "predict" the speed of a particular file read/write to most user.

Exactly.
 
So, the way I see it, if you disagree it's because you think the performance of a Fusion Drive is just not the same or similar as an SSD and this should really be the main focus of our debate :)

My point about not having a Fusion Drive is that I would NOT trust a Seagate drive inside my new iMac under any circumstances. I would rather have a Sandisk or Samsung PCIe flash drive quietly working away, rather than some mediocre mechanical drive that's bound to fail early.

Let us know how your Fusion Drive is holding up in 18 months' time.
 
My point about not having a Fusion Drive is that I would NOT trust a Seagate drive inside my new iMac under any circumstances. I would rather have a Sandisk or Samsung PCIe flash drive quietly working away, rather than some mediocre mechanical drive that's bound to fail early.

Let us know how your Fusion Drive is holding up in 18 months' time.

my two and a half year old fusion is holding up pretty well, thank you.
 
If I still had my old Mac Pro, I still wouldn't have a Seagate hard drive inside it. And that's my point, Apple has gone with the cheapest manufacturer to put hard drives inside their Macs, a manufacturer that was so confident of it's quality that it reduced warranties from two years to one year.

Are you sure it's still Seagate ? If I remember correctly, a IFixIt teardown reveiled a 3.5" 7200RPM 1 TB WD Blue inside the 27" iMac, which isn't that bad from a reliability perspective. Seagate is much worse. Seagate's 1 TB 2.5" 5400 RPM goes into the 21.5" model if I'm not mistaken.

I've had mainly issues with Caviar Green disks, which are horrible from a reliability point of view.
 
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Are you sure it's still Seagate ? If I remember correctly, a IFixIt teardown reveiled a 3.5" 7200RPM 1 TB WD Blue inside the 27" iMac, which isn't that bad from a reliability perspective. Seagate is much worse. Seagate's 1 TB 2.5" 5400 RPM goes into the 21.5" model if I'm not mistaken.

I've had mainly issues with Caviar Green disks, which are horrible from a reliability point of view.

I think it might differ depending on where the iMacs are assembled. I guess if you're 'lucky' to get a WD Blue instead of a Seagate, then you can expect to get a longer life out of the fusion drive.

And yes, Caviar Greens in my experience were the most unreliable drives I've ever owned.

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my two and a half year old fusion is holding up pretty well, thank you.

What make of drive do you have in yours?
 
Please try one before posting these nonsenses!!!
In daily use, I can't tell the difference between my iMac (FD) and my MBA 13" 2015 (the one with the super fast SSD): boot or launching apps and documents, both can't be compared to a machine with just a traditionnal HDD.
I did and I couldn't see any difference between FD and hdd or even an ssd for common tasks. When it comes to virtualisation I saw no difference between FD and hdd but I did see a huge difference when using an ssd. It's due to FD needing to move things around so effectively the vm's were still running off the hdd. This wasn't the case with the ssd. So yeah, practice what you preach and test out various scenarios yourself. Don't make the mistake of only testing your own use case!

However, for anyone to argue that a Fusion Drive is better than a 256 GB SSD with external storage, well that's simply not true.
And that's not true either. Why? Because it depends on what your requirements are AND what you are doing on the machine. If you're after something that stores lots of data cheaply then clearly the FD is the better choice. If you're after speed then clearly the ssd is the better choice. I'd refrain from stating that FD, hdd or ssd is the better choice; it simply depends on too many individual things.

Dyn, don't talk about what you don't understand. The difference isn't magnetic vs. electronic. The main difference is that an SSD drive cannot overwrite existing data.
There are many more differences but the main one is electronic versus magnetic. Magnetic storage requires an entirely different approach and has different characteristics than electrical (and vice versa). The way data is overwritten is part of that.

However this is not what you were talking about: you were talking about how data is being stored on hdd vs ssd which is something entirely different. For more generic than when reusing parts of the drive which is what you are actually talking about now. Overwriting data is what both drives are able to do only very differently. An ssd cannot do this directly, it needs to clear out the memory cell before it can store the new data. An hdd doesn't have to do that, it can write over the data on disk physically. So yes you can say that an ssd cannot overwrite data. Still, both kind of drives need to find free space first before they can even write to disk.

You also seem to be forgetting that a hdd has an index of where the data is located as well. An ssd isn't that much different, that's why we can use it as if it were a hdd.

I understand what you are trying to say but you are really bad in explaining it and because of that it has become misinformation. You're better off just linking to the big ssd article on Anandtech. It has all the information properly explained. It also shows why an ssd and hdd are not that different.

So bootcamp wise... Windows is basically on a 5400 RPM drive. Do you know how Windows works in a VM like parallels on a fusion drive? I'm trying to get a visual sense on how it all works.
Everything that isn't OS X will start out on the hdd and moved to the ssd when it is used often. It will be done in blocks, not in files which means that a vm might be partly on the ssd and partly on the hdd. From what I've seen the performance isn't different from an ordinary hdd.

He was simply referring to the well-documented tendency of SSDs to fail totally, non-recoverably, and without warning. E.g:

http://www.computerworld.com/articl...o-die--as-linus-torvalds-just-discovered.html

"SSDs...when they do fail, they can die without warning"
To be fair, I've seen this happen with just about any drive there is. It depends on what is failing. For example, if the controller fails (which is what happens a lot) it doesn't matter if it is an hdd or an ssd, it will be without warning. There is always a chance that any drive will fail without warning (or the entire machine, a computer doesn't exist of merely a drive), that's why you plan for disaster. Much better than relying an theoretics.
 
I did and I couldn't see any difference between FD and hdd or even an ssd for common tasks. When it comes to virtualisation I saw no difference between FD and hdd but I did see a huge difference when using an ssd. It's due to FD needing to move things around so effectively the vm's were still running off the hdd. This wasn't the case with the ssd. So yeah, practice what you preach and test out various scenarios yourself. Don't make the mistake of only testing your own use case!
A FD boots and launches app as fast as a SSD.
Virtualisation is a very specific use ;) In daily use for most users, you can't tell the difference between a FD and a SSD.
I can't in daily use between my Late 2013 iMac with 3TB FD and my MBA 2015 (the one with the super fast SSD): boot, launching apps, even editing large pictures in Photoshop or opening my large iTunes library, it is as fast with the 2 machines.

I can feel the HDD in the FD only when I'm surfing in my huge photo library (100k) with Adobe Bridge, but I can live with that. And It would'nt be faster on an external USB HDD...
 
...When it comes to virtualisation I saw no difference between FD and hdd but I did see a huge difference when using an ssd. It's due to FD needing to move things around so effectively the vm's were still running off the hdd....

On my 2013 iMac 27 with 3TB FD it takes 8-11 sec to boot Windows 8.1 under Parallels 10 Desktop. iStat Menus shows much of the I/O is from the SSD portion of the FD.
 
aevan - Good post. Quite frankly I tire of the SSD evangelists around here constantly telling others how to spend their money. You are right, having all SSD is awesome but not for everyone.

Another thing is that you own this beautiful iMac with a small footprint and very few wires. What do they tell you to do? Get a small SSD inside and start adding a bunch of wires and crap to the top (or under) your desk. Not my first choice.

Whenever these "SSD vs Fusion" threads pop up, I first get clear on whether or not the OP will want external drives, then I give the appropriate advice. SSD evangelists only know one answer and that's it!


I am about to go wireless with my iMac.

By which I mean that I'm going to upgrade my 1TB HDD to a 4TB to get rid of the external drive that houses my 2TB iTunes library; I'm going to replace the optical drive with a BD SmartDrive to get rid of the external BD drive; and, to cap it all, I'm going to add a 256GB SSD - fused with the HDD - so that access/boot times are not impacted by the OS and apps being housed on the same mechanical drive as all my media.

After all this is done, I will have an iMac that has the same - if not better - functionality than what I have currently, but which will look like the ones in the commercials with no wires and no external devices. I'm eliminating two external devices, 2 power cables and 2 USB cables while improving performance and future-proofing (capacity-wise). All for less than $500 (and then I get to list my old stuff on ebay).
 
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Interesting thread. As head towards a purchase, I find ft he OP largely persuasive. My one reservation is long term reliability of the Fusion Drive.

What is the probability of failure over, say, 7 years? Answer unknown, I guess.

At current prices, what would Apple charge to replace it? Anyone got any idea?
 
Interesting thread. As head towards a purchase, I find ft he OP largely persuasive. My one reservation is long term reliability of the Fusion Drive.

What is the probability of failure over, say, 7 years? Answer unknown, I guess.

At current prices, what would Apple charge to replace it? Anyone got any idea?

To be perfectly honest, I cannot say what is the probability of failure after 7 years. 7 years is a long time in computer years and nothing is certain even with pure SSDs. I However, I have HDDs that run even longer than that. Some people here argue that a Fusion Drive has a greater chance of failure because it consists of two drives and failure of just one drive will corrupt the data completely on both. However, I would say that every piece of hardware has a risk of failure - sometimes you just get unlucky. But it's not like Fusion Drives were designed to fail after several years. Personally, I wouldn't worry about it.

As for replacing the Fusion Drive out of warranty, I'm not sure of the exact cost, but, unlike the GPU for example that is fused to the motherboard on iMac 5K, both drives can be replaced individually, so it would be a couple of hundred dollars.
 
sorry off topic slightly but can I confirm before purchase-

i7 imac 16 gb RAM 21.5 inch 256 gb FLASH

Verses

i7 imac 16 gb RAM 21.5 inch 512 gb FLASH

Would be exactly the same performace wise.

thanks in advance
 
sorry off topic slightly but can I confirm before purchase-

i7 imac 16 gb RAM 21.5 inch 256 gb FLASH

Verses

i7 imac 16 gb RAM 21.5 inch 512 gb FLASH

Would be exactly the same performace wise.

thanks in advance


Should be - there is only a slight difference between the 128 and 256 models from the same manufacturer. However, there are differences between manufacturers. Currently, I think Samsung SSDs are the fastest, and you won't know which one you got until you buy the computer. But you won't notice the difference in real world usage so don't worry about it. The only thing that should concern you is that 512Gb is twice the size of 256Gb one and that's it.
 
that great thanks, it was for two imacs reading xp in Parralels 10 to a Master imac networked with same spec as previous mention ie i7 with 16 GB but 512 flash drive ( we dont have many GB of data but performance is important).

So
Master imac where all data stored has the 512 hard drive. The other two imacs just used to read off the master would have 256 gb

ie save money on the two imacs used to read and get smaller hard drive save nearly £500 on two machines with zero performance loss.

I guess thats okay?, again sorry its off topic.
 
I just leave this:
From all the computers I had, the first item to die in all of them was a HDD.

I got my iMac27 with SSD only because of that, also the noise... the noise...

Once you get used to silence it's hard to go back.
 
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