Why Apple Are In No Hurry To Build A New Mac Pro

[GermanyChris]

Probably worse than zero-sum.

(1) People who were considering Macs could buy cheaper OEM OS X machines.
(2) Sellers of OEM 'OS X' machines have no particular incentive to promote OS X over Windows (probably quite the reverse, given MS's sales tactics) and would probably end up only selling to established Mac users rather than expanding the market for OS X. Look at the wonderful job that Dell etc. have done selling Linux-based machines (they do launch one from time to time, usually more expensive than the equivalent Windows machine and relegated to some obscure backwater of the website).



...don't forget that both Jobs (NeXT) and Apple (in the StarMac era) tried it.

In the latter case, it did exactly what you said - third parties went after Apple customers rather than trying to expand the market.



Clue: Microsoft Windows has a huge list of compatible hardware. Microsoft doesn't write all of those drivers - in many cases, the manufacturers of the hardware handle the support, because of the ubiquity of Windows. Even where hardware can run using generic/standards-based drivers, manufacturers may only test it with Windows (or worse, design it around Windows' gimped version of the standards).

Apple would have to do a lot of work either lobbying manufacturers to support Apple or writing, testing and supporting its own drivers.

Look at how limited Linux's success has been in trying to give away an alternative OS.

Do we get to count Android, the various servers, and the imbedded?

 

[goMac]

Apple would have to do a lot of work either lobbying manufacturers to support Apple or writing, testing and supporting its own drivers.

Maybe... But Apple already has a pretty large set of drivers. The components on Macs are all third party. And all those third party components have drivers now.

It's not a bad idea, and it would reduce the complaining when Apple releases something that isn't what people wanted.

All Apple would really have to do is have an "OS X certified" hardware program like Microsoft does. Want to buy a component or a motherboard? Just make sure it's OS X certified.

 

[d-m-a-x]

Sure, and there are apps that will not run in 10.3 but will run in 10.2. Your point?



Huh? I'm not getting the question. It's also kind of funny, considering fat binaries existing in NeXTStep and are a great example of something Apple continued using throughout PowerPC.



Are you kidding? I've been using Macs since System 7 and I ran into them all the freakin time. People have been complaining about Finder on OS X being slow and laggy since the OS X Finder came out.

Where have you been? Worse? It's the same as it always was. The problem usually is it's not properly thread on disk and network activity and never has been.



I'm not saying it's defensible. I'm saying it's been around since OS X came out.

Seriously, here's people complaining about the same issue in Mac OS 10.3, on PowerPC:
http://macosx.com/forums/mac-os-x-system-mac-software/34259-panther-finder-multithreaded.html

This has nothing to do with Apple being more lazy than before, or being ported to Intel. It's always been this way. I remember this on every single PowerPC Mac I ever owned, and even before that.

10.1 to 10.3 were rough times

 

[goMac]

10.1 to 10.3 were rough times

Sure, but it's been like that every OS X version... 10.5 didn't support Classic apps any more (even on PowerPC.) Apple has a long history of dropping legacy stuff. This isn't something new thats started recently.

 

[kuau]

Maybe... But Apple already has a pretty large set of drivers. The components on Macs are all third party. And all those third party components have drivers now.

It's not a bad idea, and it would reduce the complaining when Apple releases something that isn't what people wanted.

All Apple would really have to do is have an "OS X certified" hardware program like Microsoft does. Want to buy a component or a motherboard? Just make sure it's OS X certified.

Exactly what I was trying to say. Personally what do they have to loose?
There stock has lost almost 40% from it highs, and I don't think Apple TV is going to be a "huge hit" and IOS is already looking very dated.
The problem is Tim Cook is no visionary.

 

[goMac]

Exactly what I was trying to say. Personally what do they have to loose?
There stock has lost almost 40% from it highs, and I don't think Apple TV is going to be a "huge hit" and IOS is already looking very dated.
The problem is Tim Cook is no visionary.

I don't think the pro market is why Apple has lost 40% of their value (I don't think the stock market cares at all about the Mac Pro.) Apple is working on the TV and iOS. And they can do more than one thing at a time. And honestly, the pro market is never ever ever going to make the sort of money iOS does even at it's low. I don't think Apple will leave the pro market, but let's not kid ourselves and think the pundits and stock traders care at all about the pro market, or that pros sales are ever going to eclipse iOS sales.

I'm on the fence about Apple licensing OS X. It would mean anyone could get the hardware they want, but I could see how the support would be a nightmare.

 

[wallysb01]

Exactly what I was trying to say. Personally what do they have to loose?
There stock has lost almost 40% from it highs, and I don't think Apple TV is going to be a "huge hit" and IOS is already looking very dated.
The problem is Tim Cook is no visionary.

Stock is down 40% because the smart phone/table market is saturating and everyone knows the iWatch or iTV isn't going to be the next iPhone or iPad.

This really doesn't have anything to do with being a visionary. People had been thinking up fancy pocket sized touch screens type gadgets since the 50's. There really wasn't a ton of "vision" there, it was more about making the vision real (which is quite an accomplishment don't get me wrong). Now, what's next? Is there anything? If I had to bet on the next big tech-gadet to make billions it would be a lot more like the Google GLASS than iWhatever, but even that has major limits to its marketability.

So to get back on track, where is growth going to come from as iPhones and iPad sales flatten? Reengaging a market with very high profit margins (the pros) would certainly help.

 

[theluggage]

[/B]

Do we get to count Android, the various servers, and the imbedded?

Sorry, I should have qualified that remark. I was thinking of the (lack of) success of Linux as a desktop PC operating system.

There's no doubt that Linux has been hugely successful in other markets, but, well, they are different markets with different histories (in which, often, Windows wasn't a credible contender).

When it comes to Linux as a desktop OS for PCs, its market penetration is negligible, despite being free. It even failed to build on the brief, initial success of Linux-based netbooks.

 

[GermanyChris]

Sorry, I should have qualified that remark. I was thinking of the (lack of) success of Linux as a desktop PC operating system.

There's no doubt that Linux has been hugely successful in other markets, but, well, they are different markets with different histories (in which, often, Windows wasn't a credible contender).

When it comes to Linux as a desktop OS for PCs, its market penetration is negligible, despite being free. It even failed to build on the brief, initial success of Linux-based netbooks.

Linux is about 2% of the market and didn't really move out of geekdom until 98/99 or so even though the Kenal arrived in '94

Apple introduced it's OS in '78 and it's made to about 6%

Apple OS's have been around 35 years, Linux say 15..

 

[theluggage]

Maybe... But Apple already has a pretty large set of drivers. The components on Macs are all third party. And all those third party components have drivers now.

...but still limited c.f. the range of Windows-compatible components out there, and newly-launched devices will come with windows drivers in the box, but won't be supported on OS X until Apple gets around to it. Other products may be supported if they contain a supported chipset, but if you've ever tried to buy (say) a WiFi card for Linux you'll know what a minefield that is (some manufacturers will happily switch chipsets without changing model numbers or packaging).

All Apple would really have to do is have an "OS X certified" hardware program like Microsoft does. Want to buy a component or a motherboard? Just make sure it's OS X certified.

Hardware makers get Windows certified because that gives them access to 95% of PCs. The incentive to get OS X certified would be much, much weaker.

The problem is, if Apple is making money hand over fist selling Macbooks and iMacs, why should they try an approach that has failed twice before (NeXT Step and Mac OS 9) if there is even a chance it might backfire?

 

[wallysb01]

When it comes to Linux as a desktop OS for PCs, its market penetration is negligible, despite being free. It even failed to build on the brief, initial success of Linux-based netbooks.

Windows is close to being free as well, and may even actually generate money for the PC suppliers because they get paid to also ship with a bunch of windows based bloat-ware. Linux also has a hard time gaining market share simply because many programs don't use it. Its a chicken and the egg thing. If microsoft office or the popular PC games were available for linux distros, more people might be inclinded to buy PCs with Linux already installed. But right now the market is being manipulated in such ways that the free, open source product just can't gain a foot hold, despite the GUI front end now looking and feeling like typical OS.

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...but still limited c.f. the range of Windows-compatible components out there, and newly-launched devices will come with windows drivers in the box, but won't be supported on OS X until Apple gets around to it. Other products may be supported if they contain a supported chipset, but if you've ever tried to buy (say) a WiFi card for Linux you'll know what a minefield that is (some manufacturers will happily switch chipsets without changing model numbers or packaging).

I don't disagree with your larger point, but I've never had problems with drivers when addition of cards with Ubuntu. So long as you do quick check on the support pages before purchase....

If you just happen to have product X laying around, you plug it in, and then expect it to work, that could be a different story.

 

[goMac]

...but still limited c.f. the range of Windows-compatible components out there, and newly-launched devices will come with windows drivers in the box, but won't be supported on OS X until Apple gets around to it. Other products may be supported if they contain a supported chipset, but if you've ever tried to buy (say) a WiFi card for Linux you'll know what a minefield that is (some manufacturers will happily switch chipsets without changing model numbers or packaging).

OS X has an open driver architecture just like Windows does. Nothing stopping manufacturers from putting a driver in the box for OS X. That's what NVidia does with their downloadable drivers.

https://developer.apple.com/library...nceptual/KernelProgramming/Extend/Extend.html

 

[crjackson2134]

I actually haven't used windows on a regular basis for several years. Linux replaced windows for my professional / personal use. I personally find that it's easier to get Linux compatible consumer hardware than OSX compatible consumer hardware. However, I find that OSX has a much better user experience for me over any Windows version or Linux Distro. With Linux, many things work partially. With OSX, it either works or it doesn't. Windows I don't care about either way, that season has passed for me. I'll go back to windows ONLY when nothing else exists to fill the need.

I hope that Apple releases a true power machine worthy of the Mac Pro moniker. I have a new 5,1 Hex core, so I won't be ditching it anytime soon, but I know many pros will undoubtedly be happy for the upgrade. It's just a big expensive toy for me, but many people truly need an upgrade. Only time will tell. I don't think that Tim Cook inspires the same confidence that Steve Jobs did. This too will take time.

 

[theluggage]

Nothing stopping manufacturers from putting a driver in the box for OS X.

...but no huge incentive, either, when they can get 90% of the market with a Windows driver.

Linux is about 2% of the market and didn't really move out of geekdom until 98/99 or so even though the Kenal arrived in '94

Apple introduced it's OS in '78 and it's made to about 6%

Apple OS's have been around 35 years, Linux say 15..

Of course, it all depends how you define "the market". Apple have never had any luck breaking into "corporate" PC sales, Linux has never been able to sell to consumers (apart from a brief holiday with the EEE PC). Both have niches where they are hugely successful, both have had a hard time breaking out of those niches.

 

[GermanyChris]

...but no huge incentive, either, when they can get 90% of the market with a Windows driver.



Of course, it all depends how you define "the market". Apple have never had any luck breaking into "corporate" PC sales, Linux has never been able to sell to consumers (apart from a brief holiday with the EEE PC). Both have niches where they are hugely successful, both have had a hard time breaking out of those niches.

Here is 16 vendors that sell computers with debian preinstalled.
http://www.debian.org/distrib/pre-installed#us


Then there is system 76 ..With Ubuntu pre-installed
https://www.system76.com/


Here's a couple more for the Hardcore open source types these will have no closed source drivers or software
http://www.gnu.org/links/companies.html

Do I think Linux will take over the world? No, but I do think it will surpass OSX in market share. As things move further into "the cloud" your OS will have less of a factor in what programs you can run.

 

[Lancer]

Apple would not be the same company if they stopped making hardware, whether it's the iPhone or MacPro!

 

[theluggage]

Here is 16 vendors that sell computers with debian preinstalled.

So, that's 16 small custom PC builders out of how many in the US? There are probably 16 custom PC builders in your city. Missing from that list: Dell, HP, Lenovo... and Apple, for that matter - any brand you're likely to find on the shelf at Best Buy/PC World, or (unless you are very lucky) any company that your employer has a supply contract with.

The thing is (getting back to the topic of why Apple doesn't license OS X and take over the world) if you know that you want Linux, and go looking, you will find it - but nobody in the industry is making any effort to pitch it to undecided users and expand the market, because they are doing very nicely selling Windows thank you. As has been pointed out, they have the incentives from MS and income from bundled promos. Also, its what their sales force know - good luck getting any product sold if the sales force aren't motivated to sell it (been there, done that, T-shirt wasn't in stock because there was no demand).

An OEM version of OS X would be the same - you'd be able to get it if you specifically asked, paid 20% over the odds, waited an extra 3 days and resisted the attempts to sell you Windows instead. It would compete with existing Mac sales, not Windows.

 

[GermanyChris]

So, that's 16 small custom PC builders out of how many in the US? There are probably 16 custom PC builders in your city. Missing from that list: Dell, HP, Lenovo... and Apple, for that matter - any brand you're likely to find on the shelf at Best Buy/PC World, or (unless you are very lucky) any company that your employer has a supply contract with.

The thing is (getting back to the topic of why Apple doesn't license OS X and take over the world) if you know that you want Linux, and go looking, you will find it - but nobody in the industry is making any effort to pitch it to undecided users and expand the market, because they are doing very nicely selling Windows thank you. As has been pointed out, they have the incentives from MS and income from bundled promos. Also, its what their sales force know - good luck getting any product sold if the sales force aren't motivated to sell it (been there, done that, T-shirt wasn't in stock because there was no demand).

An OEM version of OS X would be the same - you'd be able to get it if you specifically asked, paid 20% over the odds, waited an extra 3 days and resisted the attempts to sell you Windows instead. It would compete with existing Mac sales, not Windows.

That's just Debian though (which is another inherent problem)..

Dell will install Linux on any computer you purchase but they don't make it easy nor do you get them money back for the Windows license.

There is no push because there is no benefit to the reseller to push it right now it's an ideological decision more than any single thing.

Linux is in it's infancy and rising, Dell/HP etc. are on the decline and Windows users see not to like Windows 8, are uncomfortable with the subscription base Blue and office 365.

If tablets really start to serve as replacements for notebooks you'll really see Linux come to the front..

 

[gnasher729]

I don't know if I buy that the pro market is shrinking. What exactly are pros jumping ship to?

If all you need is processing power, a quad core MacMini or iMac is quite powerful. My rMBP beats my 8 core Mac Pro.

But the definition of "professional" is "someone who makes money with their Mac". There are lots of different ways to do that, so it doesn't say _anything_ really about their needs. Computer usage by professionals is changing, just as everywhere else. There are probably a few that have been jumping ship to a Retina MBP. It's infinitely better than a MacPro on the move. If you add two stationary monitors, it will match the MacPro for many people. The number of people who _need_ a MacPro and couldn't live happily with an MBP isn't that high.

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Linux is about 2% of the market and didn't really move out of geekdom until 98/99 or so even though the Kenal arrived in '94

Apple introduced it's OS in '78 and it's made to about 6%

Apple OS's have been around 35 years, Linux say 15..

MacOS in 1984, OS X in 2002 or so.

 

[ABCDEF-Hex]

Sounds familiar

That's just Debian though (which is another inherent problem)..

Dell will install Linux on any computer you purchase but they don't make it easy nor do you get them money back for the Windows license.

There is no push because there is no benefit to the reseller to push it right now it's an ideological decision more than any single thing.

Linux is in it's infancy and rising, Dell/HP etc. are on the decline and Windows users see not to like Windows 8, are uncomfortable with the subscription base Blue and office 365.

Sounds like something I heard 25 years ago about OS2 - I don't think it will happen in your lifetime.

 

[GermanyChris]

Sounds like something I heard 25 years ago about OS2 - I don't think it will happen in your lifetime.

And we've been hearing it about Linux for since there was a Linux. The tech market is changing in a more profound way that it has in the past though..

Dunno

 

[goMac]

...but no huge incentive, either, when they can get 90% of the market with a Windows driver.

I don't see why not. If they can spend X dollars to write a Mac driver, and make 10X or 20X back on Mac sales, it doesn't really matter how much of the market Windows controls. It's just extra money.

You know how many mobo manufacturers would be chomping at the bit to officially support OS X?

 

[wallysb01]

So, that's 16 small custom PC builders out of how many in the US? There are probably 16 custom PC builders in your city. Missing from that list: Dell, HP, Lenovo... and Apple, for that matter - any brand you're likely to find on the shelf at Best Buy/PC World, or (unless you are very lucky) any company that your employer has a supply contract with.

Of course all three of Dell, HP and Lenovo ship workstations with Linux. HP sells the Z1 with Linux, which to me isn't really a workstation with its entry level processor an i5. Dell also ships computers with Ubuntu, and not just the workstations: http://configure.us.dell.com/dellst...del_id=xps-13-l321x-mlk&c=us&l=en&s=bsd&cs=04

The thing is (getting back to the topic of why Apple doesn't license OS X and take over the world) if you know that you want Linux, and go looking, you will find it - but nobody in the industry is making any effort to pitch it to undecided users and expand the market, because they are doing very nicely selling Windows thank you.

Who is nobody? There are definately groups pushing GNU OSes out there. That's the very reason GNU was created in the first place, to create a group of people developing and advocating open source software. But of course no one selling computers is pitching Linux; its free. So, without a monitary motivation, why would they?

An OEM version of OS X would be the same - you'd be able to get it if you specifically asked, paid 20% over the odds, waited an extra 3 days and resisted the attempts to sell you Windows instead. It would compete with existing Mac sales, not Windows.

Agreed. It wouldn't work. Of course I'd like it, but Apple isn't going to make more money this way. You'd have just as many, if not more people moving off of Mac products to other PC vendors selling OSX, as new customers of OSX. And if Apple only had a profit margin of say $50 from each PC sale with OSX, but got $500 from the average Mac sale, you'd need to have 10 new customers for every 1 that moves from Mac with OSX to PC with OSX in order to come out ahead.

 

[greenmeanie]

Everything is going Virtual why would they?

Bring back Apple Computer Inc.

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This Poster is right.
The change is Virtual computing in Schools and Cooperations. And Apple OSX can't be used on a Data Center so we have to run Windows or Linux on our Apple Computers/products that we have bought in the past.

And we've been hearing it about Linux for since there was a Linux. The tech market is changing in a more profound way that it has in the past though..

Dunno