Why do some continue using Microsoft Office on Mac?

[MacBH928]

Why do you NEED updates every year?

(For the non-subscription version, use "More purchase options" on the Order page.)

No , I actually rather have the app as with "bug fixes and performance improvements" than push new features down its throats like fattening a duck. My problem is if they do not get an update it will probably will break on the next OS update, now I have re-purchase/upgrade to the newer version.

Because legal documents need to be printed out EXACTLY the same way every time. Lawyers typically refer to line # of page# in their correspondence, and there would be hell to pay if the text in a newly printed document doesn't match the original. That's part of the reason why Word Perfect is still being widely used by law firms.

So what? You can export to a different format and still have same font family+size which all text line should be the same

+I thought laws are always changing and issued, so no way the all laws from the 70s still in effect.

 

[IvyKing]

So what? You can export to a different format and still have same font family+size which all text line should be the same

+I thought laws are always changing and issued, so no way the all laws from the 70s still in effect.

The legal documents in question are typically Contracts, Trusts and other such agreements, which are that main fare of most law firms. Even a miniscule change in a document can get the law firm in a big heap of trouble so "which all text line should be the same" does not cut it as the operative word is "shall" not "should". Must easier to use nearly a half century old piece of software and the hardware to implement it than try to make new software/hardware work exactly the same as the old software/hardware.

I am not a lawyer, have absolutely no wish to become one, but have had a number of dealings with lawyers over the years.

 

[BR3W]

you forgot the most important points

one being their paralegals are drafting those briefs and contracts
and
two being neither attorneys nor paralegals are what anyone would typically call tech savvy

keyboard shortcuts and muscle memory alone account for holdover software more than anything

oh, and lets not forget three being some of these computers are still running Windows XP if not some variant of DOS

(and also legal templates and a variety of specialized tools for law firms that don't exist in Word)

 

[it wasnt me]

If this code reveal by WordPerfect is so amazing why don't other suites provide it?

This is largely due to the fact that the GUI feature is closely interwoven with the file format. If you open a Word document in WordPerfect, for example, it is converted internally to WPD (and converted back again when saved). It is impossible to write a Reveal Codes plugin for Word because DOCX uses different control codes (namely XML).

 

[MacBH928]

The legal documents in question are typically Contracts, Trusts and other such agreements, which are that main fare of most law firms. Even a miniscule change in a document can get the law firm in a big heap of trouble so "which all text line should be the same" does not cut it as the operative word is "shall" not "should". Must easier to use nearly a half century old piece of software and the hardware to implement it than try to make new software/hardware work exactly the same as the old software/hardware.

I am not a lawyer, have absolutely no wish to become one, but have had a number of dealings with lawyers over the years.

you forgot the most important points

one being their paralegals are drafting those briefs and contracts
and
two being neither attorneys nor paralegals are what anyone would typically call tech savvy

keyboard shortcuts and muscle memory alone account for holdover software more than anything

oh, and lets not forget three being some of these computers are still running Windows XP if not some variant of DOS

(and also legal templates and a variety of specialized tools for law firms that don't exist in Word)

I feel like I am missing something here. but keeping the old OS running on newer hardware I think should be problematic. I do not imagine modern PC parts can run CP/M OS , export to PDF, or print on a modern printer. I heard the credit card companies run on Fortran software written in like the 60s but that is more understandable than a law firm/office.

 

[MacBH928]

This is largely due to the fact that the GUI feature is closely interwoven with the file format. If you open a Word document in WordPerfect, for example, it is converted internally to WPD (and converted back again when saved). It is impossible to write a Reveal Codes plugin for Word because DOCX uses different control codes (namely XML).

In my mind you can create a GUI with reveal codes that represent the XML tags and as you adjust the codes it auto adjust the XML in the background without the user noticing, but I do not write software so not sure if that is even possible.

I just keep hearing how amazing the reveal codes are, so I am thinking other processors might benefit from implementing it.

 

[it wasnt me]

In my mind you can create a GUI with reveal codes that represent the XML tags and as you adjust the codes it auto adjust the XML in the background without the user noticing

Please try.

I just keep hearing how amazing the reveal codes are

If you’ll ever come near a Windows PC, I dare you to try a trial version of WordPerfect. Either you’ll love it or… well, you don’t.

 

[BR3W]

I feel like I am missing something here. but keeping the old OS running on newer hardware I think should be problematic. I do not imagine modern PC parts can run CP/M OS , export to PDF, or print on a modern printer. I heard the credit card companies run on Fortran software written in like the 60s but that is more understandable than a law firm/office.

Theyre not running old software on new computers. Unbelievablely some of these systems are decades old at least in part so they can continue running their old software (or ancient versions of current software, like WP). Often you'll see some office using some ancient software for payroll and they can't afford, don't know how, can't for some other reason (lack of support from a vendor, for example), or just plain don't see a reason to spend the resources to upgrade.

It's not just law offices doing this, too. That's one of the reasons you see decades old components for sale on ebay for ridiculous prices.

 

[Zwhaler]

Are the apple equivelant apps such as numbers, keynote and pages not good or the same as Microsoft office?

I find pages to be very watered down compared to Word. Word is more of a utility, Pages feels like a fluffy lite version of it. No offense.

 

[MacBH928]

Theyre not running old software on new computers. Unbelievablely some of these systems are decades old at least in part so they can continue running their old software (or ancient versions of current software, like WP). Often you'll see some office using some ancient software for payroll and they can't afford, don't know how, can't for some other reason (lack of support from a vendor, for example), or just plain don't see a reason to spend the resources to upgrade.

It's not just law offices doing this, too. That's one of the reasons you see decades old components for sale on ebay for ridiculous prices.

the question is how?

all electronics die and need constant fixing. I do not assume there are spare parts for a 1983 computer let alone the monitor. how do they do back up? and I am talking home use not constant work use.

Sounds to me like buying a new $600 all in one pc shipped with win11 and free office license is just easier and less time consuming than fighting with a 1983 computer alive. albeit I could see a new hardware installed with Linux/FreeBSD running the old software, I think it can do it.

 

[mk313]

the question is how?

all electronics die and need constant fixing. I do not assume there are spare parts for a 1983 computer let alone the monitor. how do they do back up? and I am talking home use not constant work use.

Sounds to me like buying a new $600 all in one pc shipped with win11 and free office license is just easier and less time consuming than fighting with a 1983 computer alive. albeit I could see a new hardware installed with Linux/FreeBSD running the old software, I think it can do it.

I used to work for an insurance company that had to occasionally issue some type of state mandated ID card & it had to be done in some specific format. We had a separate computer & a dot matrix printer that we used only for those cards. The state was very particular that the cards had to be filled out precisely as they required or they would get rejected. And the software was old. But we only did it a handful of times a year, so it wasn't a high priority for IT to upgrade that. I wouldn't be surprised if they were still using the same computer/printer today.

 

[it wasnt me]

I do not assume there are spare parts for a 1983 computer

I own a perfectly functional 1981 keyboard which is my daily driver at work. You are mistaken.

 

[MacBH928]

I own a perfectly functional 1981 keyboard which is my daily driver at work. You are mistaken.

a keyboard is not a computer. How many Apple Macintosh still remain functioning? Or IBM 5150?

Even if you could, the money, spare parts hunt, labour work will easily price a new intel machine . How about backups?

 

[MacBH928]

I used to work for an insurance company that had to occasionally issue some type of state mandated ID card & it had to be done in some specific format. We had a separate computer & a dot matrix printer that we used only for those cards. The state was very particular that the cards had to be filled out precisely as they required or they would get rejected. And the software was old. But we only did it a handful of times a year, so it wasn't a high priority for IT to upgrade that. I wouldn't be surprised if they were still using the same computer/printer today.

I never understand why businesses build software to do something ONCE and then never migrate or build it again. I mean if you could build a specific use software in 1989 , surely you can do it again today on a more modern OS. Heck, can't you even port it like they port 90s games or just run it in an emulator

 

[BR3W]

a keyboard is not a computer. How many Apple Macintosh still remain functioning? Or IBM 5150?

I don't know the answer to that but Microsoft's numbers are at least 5.5 million computers are currently running XP.

I would argue that an Apple IIe or True Blue IBM from the 80s is more likely to be running than a Compaq from 2000 for a lot of reasons not least of which surface mounted components are much more difficult to repair on a bench.

But that's neither here nor there. I'm not sure why you're arguing this so strongly. Several people have pointed out what we've seen in the field, it's clearly searchable on eBay that such old parts still continue to be listed and sold, and it's not even a major point in this conversation...and also strange that you're choosing to go all the way back to the 1980s to try and make your point when I mentioned law firms using computers that are ~twenty years old (which would be 2003 rather than 1983).

 

[SnowCrocodile]

I never understand why businesses build software to do something ONCE and then never migrate or build it again. I mean if you could build a specific use software in 1989 , surely you can do it again today on a more modern OS. Heck, can't you even port it like they port 90s games or just run it in an emulator

Because of cost and most importantly, disruption.

The same reason why it's so hard to get a major section on a major busy road or bridge replaced. The entire city center will slow to a crawl for the duration of work, so they would try to avoid having to do that any way they can.

I read shortly before Covid that IRS was still running on mainframe computers from 1960s. It's not that they don't have the money or technology to replace them, but these computers work, and if they try to replace them with modern equipment and software they risk bringing down the entire system with catastrophic consequences. It's like an artificial heart - the one a patient has may be old and outdated technology, but nobody would want to replace it as long as it's in working order. Too risky.

Many people tend to forget that technology is not the end goal, it's a tool. As long as any tool works, it doesn't need to be replaced especially when the risk of replacement outweighs the benefit.

 

[DaveFromCampbelltown]

Because of cost and most importantly, disruption.

The same reason why it's so hard to get a major section on a major busy road or bridge replaced. The entire city center will slow to a crawl for the duration of work, so they would try to avoid having to do that any way they can.

I read shortly before Covid that IRS was still running on mainframe computers from 1960s. It's not that they don't have the money or technology to replace them, but these computers work, and if they try to replace them with modern equipment and software they risk bringing down the entire system with catastrophic consequences. It's like an artificial heart - the one a patient has may be old and outdated technology, but nobody would want to replace it as long as it's in working order. Too risky.

Many people tend to forget that technology is not the end goal, it's a tool. As long as any tool works, it doesn't need to be replaced especially when the risk of replacement outweighs the benefit.

I used to work for an installation that ran an ICL mainframe, under the George II OS. This was a 32-bit computer.
That mainframe ran the payroll for the Public Service of the whole country. However that payroll run under the older, 24-bit George OS.
They had to install a 24-bit George VM just to run the payroll.
I later found that the Army was running their payroll on a twin-floppy Apple III. I left the country soon after...

Don't forget that George R. R. Martin runs an old MS-DOS PC, writing his books using WordStar.
Also, the San Francisco Muni train system still runs on Floppy Disks.
There are small and large users of venerable systems everywhere.

 

[it wasnt me]

a keyboard is not a computer.

A keyboard is a spare part.

 

[millerj123]

I feel like I am missing something here. but keeping the old OS running on newer hardware I think should be problematic. I do not imagine modern PC parts can run CP/M OS , export to PDF, or print on a modern printer. I heard the credit card companies run on Fortran software written in like the 60s but that is more understandable than a law firm/office.

I keep wondering if the juice is worth the squeeze.

It’s not the current parts, it’s how the OS is coded. CP/M was for a specific chipset which are generally no longer in use today.

Credit card companies mostly ran COBOL, not Fortran. When I worked for one in the 2000’s, our code only had comments back to the ‘90s.

 

[IvyKing]

It’s not the current parts, it’s how the OS is coded. CP/M was for a specific chipset which are generally no longer in use today.

Chipset???

A typical CP/M machine from the late 70's and early 80's would be comprised of a Z-80, a bunch of 74LSxx logic and a few relatively simple special function parts such UARTs, FDC's, interrupt controller, etc. The Z-80 went EOL recently, but there are likely to be caches of the lying around. Failing that, the documentation for many systems should be sufficient for someone to emulate the hardware in an FPGA - ISTR there is at least one open source implementation of the Z-80 floating around. It would be muc easier repairing a 1980 vintage CP/M machine than a 1990 PC clone.

The other thing was that CP/M was designed to provide a standard software interface for the hardware. This is what MS-DOS was supposed to do for the 8086/88 microcomputers before Lotus decided that 1-2-3 was going to talk directly to the hardware and thus started the demand for PC-compatible hardware (don't get me started on all the ways where the IBM-PC designers did what Intel documents expressly stated "do not do this"). Windoze for all its warts did bring back a lot of the hardware abstraction lost in the early PC era.

BTW, my avatar is a couple of floppies with MS-DOS for a Seattle Computer Products system (my first computer was an SCP 8086) on Control Data floppies (my first experience with computers was with a CDC-1700 and the majority of my pre-micro computer work was on a CDC-6400).

 

[MacBH928]

I later found that the Army was running their payroll on a twin-floppy Apple III. I left the country soon after...

Also, the San Francisco Muni train system still runs on Floppy Disks.
There are small and large users of venerable systems everywhere.

🤦🏻‍♂️

I keep wondering if the juice is worth the squeeze

This is what I am exactly thinking. I have no problem if the software does what it needs to do even if its old, my problem is if it works on hardware still sold . Now that I think of it, maybe they can run their old word processors/Word Perfect in a VM via emulation or something and it can run forever.

 

[mtbdudex]

Threads been going 4 years now.
Testimonial for MS Office

 

[Bungaree.Chubbins]

I’ve only ever used MS Office under duress, and that was for a year or three in the 90s. I started on WordStar, spent a lot of time in WordPerfect, and mostly used it until I switched to Mac. I did try ClarisWorks, and Lotus SmartSuite, but kept going back to WordPerfect.

Now I just use Pages and Numbers. They do what I need, they don’t annoy me, and I don’t have to pay a subscription to use them.