Why do you have to sign up with Steam to play Skyrim?

[doktordoris]

The important thing with DRM once you buy it, your name is stamped on it forever. There is no resale as you can with console titles. True you don't have the mod flexibility as you would playing the PC version, so there is a trade off. One of the few areas I'm happy with Microsoft, is how they handle 360 DRM (digital rights management).

well, reselling games is same thing as piracy. ie. one person buys a game and many people play it. It even says in the T&Cs that you agree to by playing the game that you will not re-sell it. Its remarkable how many hypocrites slag pirates off but then go and buy second hand games.

Anyhoo, the point I am making is that steam is a good thing and only a believer in the illuminati would dislike it. Its great being able to download old games to my mac that I bought ages ago on my PC and the way updates are dealt with automatically is jolly handy. The only downside is that the games cannot be resold, but as I said that is the same thing as piracy.

 

[kingtj]

I like Steam myself, but ....

I do agree with the people who are complaining that DRM schemes like theirs need to incorporate a way to transfer the licenses easily for resale.

If I buy a game on Steam and decide I no longer want to play it, there's no reason (except their greed) that I shouldn't be given an option to move it to another person's Steam account.

In fact, I'd even propose they look to the resale of their DRM licenses as a money-making OPPORTUNITY they're missing! How about setting up a marketplace feature inside Steam itself where users can auction off their Steam titles -- sort of like a mini-eBay just for Steam? Valve could take a small cut of each completed sale as a fee, so they actually get something out of doing it for people.

----------

Reselling games is absolutely NOT like software piracy! When you resell your game, you haven't committed an act of software piracy as long as you deleted your own copy of the title off all of your computers first, and didn't keep any backup copies of the software for yourself.

I've never seen a software license agreement that specifically stated you weren't allowed to resell a game. Heck, I can go to my public library right now and check out any of a number of games or educational titles to LOAN just like books, and they allow that too. They entrust the borrowers to abide by the law and delete their copies off their machines when they return the software.

If it was really illegal to resell used game software, every GameStop store I've ever been in would be in trouble!

Steam may have their OWN unique T&Cs that state something along these lines, but if so, it's something they're just trying to enforce because with their DRM business model and central authentication with their servers, they're able to physically enforce it. There's a difference between doing that and the LAW backing them up on it.

well, reselling games is same thing as piracy. ie. one person buys a game and many people play it. It even says in the T&Cs that you agree to by playing the game that you will not re-sell it. Its remarkable how many hypocrites slag pirates off but then go and buy second hand games.

Anyhoo, the point I am making is that steam is a good thing and only a believer in the illuminati would dislike it. Its great being able to download old games to my mac that I bought ages ago on my PC and the way updates are dealt with automatically is jolly handy. The only downside is that the games cannot be resold, but as I said that is the same thing as piracy.

 

[canthide911]

How to use my ps3 controller using lion

Any one know how to use a ps3 controller on their mac I've tried TattieBogle.net,and nothing it shows up in bluetooth and when connected by usb but when I try to play a game nothing Please Help!!

 

[0098386]

well, reselling games is same thing as piracy. ie. one person buys a game and many people play it. It even says in the T&Cs that you agree to by playing the game that you will not re-sell it. Its remarkable how many hypocrites slag pirates off but then go and buy second hand games.

Anyhoo, the point I am making is that steam is a good thing and only a believer in the illuminati would dislike it. Its great being able to download old games to my mac that I bought ages ago on my PC and the way updates are dealt with automatically is jolly handy. The only downside is that the games cannot be resold, but as I said that is the same thing as piracy.

No not at all.
The developer doesn't get any money from second hand games. But they also don't lose money. Piracy can lose a company money.

I've factored in server costs into the initial price of my games in the past, it's only tiny but it guarantees a working server for a long time down the line. Second hand games "transfer" that active copy to someone else keeping the total the same. So before the people playing was 1,2,3,4 is now 1,3,4,5.
Piracy is 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 etc. Up goes server strain, dev can't afford to support server, server has to be closed. Players 1,2,3,4 are very unhappy now.

Second hand is fine with me. If someone paid up full for my game, doesn't like it and passes it on - fine! So long that someone who enjoys it gets it. If my game gets pirated so much that it causes problems for me and legit customers, then that is very not cool.

I agree that Steam does need some kind of trade system. Swap one game for another with friends (with obvious limits), wouldn't that be great?

 

[Killery96]

It's just like the App Store or the iTunes Store, but for games.

As it happens Steam and Origin are NOT like the App and iTunes Store. The Apple Online stores are solely places to download software and buy it (whether or not it's overpriced, say what you will), without a CD, keep the key where you won't lose it, uninstall/reinstall infinitely, and get regular updates.

Steam and Origins update your games for you and allow you to buy them online at relatively cheap prices. This is what they SHOULD do and should be limited to. However, Steam is also just another annoying app you have to sign into and WAIT TO OPEN (anywhere from 20 seconds to 10 minutes depending on internet and computer speed), and then play your game. Sometimes Steam doesn't even let you install the game from the disk you just bought. I was on a fresh W7 install and WH40K space marine wouldn't install from the disc even after following the instructions from Steam directly. And I'm not THAT stupid. The people working for EA had the wonderful stupendous idea to make it so you had to open up a ******** wannabe military-gamer-Facebook to even launch your games. That was definitely a good idea and it makes it extremely convenient.

 

[Huntn]

The only downside is that the games cannot be resold, but as I said that is the same thing as piracy.

That is your opinion and your are entitled to it, but obviously I disagree. It is not piracy. Hundreds of thousands, if not millions of used console titles are re-sold on an ongoing basis. You'd call that piracy too? This is an old argument. Books and movies on DVD/BluRay are resold all the time, is that piracy? Piracy is when you set up a shop and start churning out multiple titles for resale, and that is not what I am advocating. Just because a game developer does not want you reselling an item you purchased, does not make it right.

 

[rasmasyean]

Well on one topic, in PRINCIPLE, you're supposed to be buying the intellectual goods for use by yourself. Not the physical media it's printed on. But some like to argue that one "purchased copy" should be some type of "community copy" as long as it's not used simultaneously by 2 or more ppl...which in principle, is wrong...but it's just a loophole that can't be helped because you can't arrest everyone for "stealing" $50 items. So you just accept that this public phenomenon will just happen. In contrast...you will never be able to do this with some type of "corporate liscense" when the company moves off the software or closes.


On another topic, how exactly does this claimed DRM eliminate "piracy"? What's to prevent "offline playing" when my friend installs my copy on his computer. And what's to prevent me from handing out my password to my neighbor once I'm done with playing the games I registered to some bogus email? This DRM might block some avenues of "piracy", but opens/enchances others. The "DRM protection argument" seems to be bogus to me. You read between the lines instead of what they feed you and you will see that they just want a way to advertise to you, get your info, and sell you crap that as someone mentioned, you will never play or intended to play.

 

[dh2005]

You read between the lines instead of what they feed you and you will see that they just want a way to advertise to you, get your info, and sell you crap that as someone mentioned, you will never play or intended to play.

If you read what I posted in its entirety, you'll see that I was talking about a multipack that contained over a dozen games for £39. Yes, several of the games in the Id Complete Pack aren't any good; but it would've cost me more than £60 to buy all of the other games separately, so it was absolutely beneficial to me to buy the multipack. I simply elect not to install the other games to my computer, because they're crap. And in doing so save myself more than £20.

Yes, Steam advertise to me. Not through e-mail (because I checked the "no" box when I signed-up), but through the Steam client when I log in. They advertise games to me, and I am a gamer. I am perfectly happy to be told about when games are coming out, and when games are on sale. Steam don't force me to buy anything - they just let me know what's available, and I buy it if I want to.


Why do the "Steam's just spam and/or DRM" brigade have an allergic reaction to advertising? It's not like advertising's a new 'evil'. Were computer magazines evil in the 1990s for having advertisements for games? True, they didn't make money from the sale of those games; but they got money from the games' publishers for promoting their products. Was that similarly corrupt? And what about sponsored content on Gamespot, IGN, or 1UP?

Also, with regard to 'reading between the lines': divining that Steam wants to sell me games so that they can get my money doesn't make you a Jedi. I understand the basics of commerce perfectly well. They have something to sell, and I want to buy it. Everybody involved in that transaction wins.

 

[antonis]

well, reselling games is same thing as piracy. ie. one person buys a game and many people play it. It even says in the T&Cs that you agree to by playing the game that you will not re-sell it. Its remarkable how many hypocrites slag pirates off but then go and buy second hand games.

Anyhoo, the point I am making is that steam is a good thing and only a believer in the illuminati would dislike it. Its great being able to download old games to my mac that I bought ages ago on my PC and the way updates are dealt with automatically is jolly handy. The only downside is that the games cannot be resold, but as I said that is the same thing as piracy.

These are some amazing lines, above...
How the hell can a resale product, any product, that I acquired legally and therefore I own, is considered piracy to resale it ? So, if I resale my car, it will be considered stolen ? Sorry, but that is a seriously dumb argument. And where is this based on ? Certainly not to the fact that the creator of the game says so. There are rules and laws exactly so that none can make his own laws, you know.

So, what will be next ? Maybe, after 100 launches of the game, we'll have to re-buy it ?

In a final analysis, punishing the legal users because they can't protect their products otherwise is not acceptable in my opinion. Protecting their products is THEIR problem, not end-users' problem. Their big issue here is that, just because they can't separate the legal from the illegal users, they decided to treat everyone as a criminal.

My experience from Skyrim:
1. Bought the game from a local store (the boxed game, with the DVD and all)
2. The installer only installed the steam client.
3. The steam client launched and decided that a newer version of steam should be downloaded.
4. It downloaded and launched the new steam version
5. It decided that an update of the game should be installed so it downloaded the entire (!!!) game from the internet (I wouldn't call "update" a 5.6gb download...)
6. After the huge download completed, it installed the whole game (using entirely the downloaded content of course)
7. Launched the game, tried to login to steam, but instead popped an error message about server availability/capacity, so I had to wait even longer for the server to become available. And for what ? To play a single player, off line game...

So, after all, there was not even a single kilobyte of content used by the DVD. So, why sell the DVD at all ?

 

[dh2005]

These are some amazing lines, above...
How the hell can a resale product, any product, that I acquired legally and therefore I own, is considered piracy to resale it ? So, if I resale my car, it will be considered stolen ? Sorry, but that is a seriously dumb argument. And where is this based on ? Certainly not to the fact that the creator of the game says so. There are rules and laws exactly so that none can make his own laws, you know.

So, what will be next ? Maybe, after 100 launches of the game, we'll have to re-buy it ?

In a final analysis, punishing the legal users because they can't protect their products otherwise is not acceptable in my opinion. Protecting their products is THEIR problem, not end-users' problem. Their big issue here is that, just because they can't separate the legal from the illegal users, they decided to treat everyone as a criminal.

My experience from Skyrim:
1. Bought the game from a local store (the boxed game, with the DVD and all)
2. The installer only installed the steam client.
3. The steam client launched and decided that a newer version of steam should be downloaded.
4. It downloaded and launched the new steam version
5. It decided that an update of the game should be installed so it downloaded the entire (!!!) game from the internet (I wouldn't call "update" a 5.6gb download...)
6. After the huge download completed, it installed the whole game (using entirely the downloaded content of course)
7. Launched the game, tried to login to steam, but instead popped an error message about server availability/capacity, so I had to wait even longer for the server to become available. And for what ? To play a single player, off line game...

So, after all, there was not even a single kilobyte of content used by the DVD. So, why sell the DVD at all ?

Yeah, some good points here.

I can understand the OP some of the way, feeling that his right to choose or not choose Steam has been taken away from him; but I feel that this grumbling about Steam being, somehow, a 'dangerous' anti-civil libertarian parasite has been going on for too long without substantiation. Steam has my e-mail address and my payment details, securely stored, and they target their marketing on the basis of such 'personal details'; but so do Amazon, and iTunes, and countless other internet merchants.

The genie's out of the lamp, now. This is how internet business is transacted, and bitching about it isn't going to make it go away. And I honestly believe that the advantages of using Steam weigh beneficially against the disadvantages. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but this "Steam is bad... just 'cuz!!!" garbage grates at my patience.

 

[0098386]

So, after all, there was not even a single kilobyte of content used by the DVD. So, why sell the DVD at all ?

Store presence.
The next Playstation handheld console is primarily a download device, some games will still come on memory sticks but all new games will be available as downloads. The reason why some games will be in stores is because they need a presence and to stand out in the store, they can't just sell the console and accessories.

Hopefully all new major new PC games will be Steam activated. I can keep all my friends in one place, automatic updates, Steam sales for future DLC, Steamworks achievements etc. But to also have the stores competitive prices (prior to a Steam sale), that's win-win for me.

 

[Huntn]

7. Launched the game, tried to login to steam, but instead popped an error message about server availability/capacity, so I had to wait even longer for the server to become available. And for what ? To play a single player, off line game...

Besides not being able to resell your purchases, if there is a reason to not like Steam this is it especially with a game DVD purchase. Some people are trying to avoid humongous downloads. Even when I purchased SWTOR an online game on DVD, it actually installed from my DVD before it went into patch mode. It normally takes me about 8-12 hrs to download around 18 GBs.

Not being able to resale a title, a marketing decision by the developer, that in many many cases does not stand up for other intellectual properties, but if they go digital, they will head down the same road. Downloaded movies on your iTunes account? Books downloaded through Barnes and Noble? You have no right to resale. Digital makes DRM fairly convenient to foist on the customer.

How did all those poor book sellers survive when they were selling physical copies of books? Because their business model was designed on what was practical. Now if they decide to DRM their digital products, there is no over riding moral issue here. It's a choice, a marketing strategy, it's what they prefer, but I don't believe they are entitled to it. I'm not renting, I'm buying, and I want the rights of an owner.

 

[doktordoris]

I just reached over and grabbed the nearest game to hand, a copy of rage for the ps3.

on the back it states "all unauthorised access, use or TRANSFER (my caps) of the product or its underlying copyright and trademark works is prohibited, see eu.playstation.com/terms for full usage rights."

if one then looks at that site, it clearly says-

PlayStation®3 Game Discs

Game software is licensed for home use only on authorised PlayStation®3 systems in Europe, the Middle East, Africa and Oceania only
You may not lease, rent, sublicense, publish, modify, adapt, or translate any portion of the Game Software.
You may not use the Game Software commercially, broadcast it, charge for its use, use it in a public arcade or make other public performance of it without express permission from Sony Computer Entertainment Europe
To the fullest extent permitted by law, you may not reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble any portion of the Game Software, or create any derivative works, or otherwise attempt to create Game Software source code from its object code.
You may not use any unauthorised, illegal, counterfeit, or modified hardware or software in connection with the Game Software to bypass, disable, or circumvent any encryption, security, or authentication mechanism for the PlayStation®3 system.
You may not resell Game Software unless expressly authorised by Sony Computer Entertainment Europe.


look at the bottom sentence. see.

 

[Huntn]

You may not resell Game Software unless expressly authorised by Sony Computer Entertainment Europe.

look at the bottom sentence. see.

And your point is? I don't know how it is in Europe, but in the U.S. on every corner there is a Gamestop selling previously owned copies of every PS/Xbox title every made and as far as I know there have been no lawsuits brought against them or anyone selling used titles.

What if the back of the box said you were only allowed to play this game between 1-4pm. You'd be good with that too?

 

[0098386]

And your point is? I don't know how it is in Europe, but in the U.S. on every corner there is a Gamestop selling previously owned copies of every PS/Xbox title every made and as far as I know there have been no lawsuits brought against them or anyone selling used titles.

What if the back of the box said you were only allowed to play this game between 1-4pm. You'd be good with that too?

Exactly the same in Europe. All game stores sell second hand games, also there's eBay.

That "rule" has been on game boxes for years.

 

[Dr McKay]

Yep. Close thread.

I'm an avid Steamer and have never received an email except to confirm using Steam on a new computer (email code to verify, just like my bank does [Chase]) or when I purchase something. They won't spam you, don't worry. You will freely accept Apple's sandbox(es) without worry, but not Steam's, which is more user friendly?

There's always great games on sale or even free. I received Portal for free, another game for $2.49, etc. Steam's the best, just embrace it.

Yea, they never spam me, not even about Steam Sales, (So I always miss them )

Whereas Apple sends me enough emails trying to sell me stuff that they were automatically flagged by my MobileMe Spam Filter and now automatically end up in 'Junk'

 

[doktordoris]

I never said it was illegal, I just pointed out that the T and Cs forbad it.

 

[antonis]

Store presence.
The next Playstation handheld console is primarily a download device, some games will still come on memory sticks but all new games will be available as downloads. The reason why some games will be in stores is because they need a presence and to stand out in the store, they can't just sell the console and accessories.

Hopefully all new major new PC games will be Steam activated. I can keep all my friends in one place, automatic updates, Steam sales for future DLC, Steamworks achievements etc. But to also have the stores competitive prices (prior to a Steam sale), that's win-win for me.

Good points. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not against download model of games or any s/w generally. I'm not against steam either, "just because". I'm just pointing out some issues that make me feel I was fooled. I could accept downloading the entire Skyrim game from the internet. I don't have a fast connection, only a 2mbit line but it would be fine with me anyway. And after all, this is indeed the future.

What annoys me though, is that I payed the increased price of a boxed game, the dvd etc. while there was no single file used by the dvd. That should be known to me beforehand. They have to decide. Selling a game on box/dvd while you end up downloading the entire content from internet, it just looks bad.

Generally speaking, there are many ways to distribute a single-player game online. Demanding to connect to a server, plus the fact that this server is not always available is a bad model, though. As it is now, it seems that using steam to install/play/upgrade a game sometimes results to an unwanted effort from the user's side. And all this, because of the anti-piracy shake.

 

[dh2005]

What annoys me though, is that I payed the increased price of a boxed game, the dvd etc. while there was no single file used by the dvd. That should be known to me beforehand... it just looks bad.

Agreed. Added to which, it's kinda stupid.

 

[Rajani Isa]

Second hand is fine with me. If someone paid up full for my game, doesn't like it and passes it on - fine! So long that someone who enjoys it gets it. If my game gets pirated so much that it causes problems for me and legit customers, then that is very not cool.

I agree that Steam does need some kind of trade system. Swap one game for another with friends (with obvious limits), wouldn't that be great?

I'm guessing it's a limitation imposed by their agreements with the developer/producer companies.

On another topic, how exactly does this claimed DRM eliminate "piracy"? What's to prevent "offline playing" when my friend installs my copy on his computer. And what's to prevent me from handing out my password to my neighbor once I'm done with playing the games I registered to some bogus email? This DRM might block some avenues of "piracy", but opens/enchances others. The "DRM protection argument" seems to be bogus to me. You read between the lines instead of what they feed you and you will see that they just want a way to advertise to you, get your info, and sell you crap that as someone mentioned, you will never play or intended to play.

It really doesn't open any avenue that didn't exist before. And no, it's not perfect - no DRM is. But Steam is successful because, on the whole, it's rather un-intrusive (I've occasionally had speed issues because of it when I was on DSL, but you can choose to not have it auto-update the games when updates are available) and player friendly, and yet somewhat secured so the studios like it.

As others have said, I have never had ads via steam, and the email I use for them is unique and don't have other ads come to it. I only get purchase receipts.

I never said it was illegal, I just pointed out that the T and Cs forbad it.

Which could very well be illegal (with physical media from inside a sealed box, at the least) in some countries.

 

[Huntn]

I never said it was illegal, I just pointed out that the T and Cs forbad it.

And of course that would be a good test case in court, just like when they sell you a product but don't tell you about their strings beforehand.

Guys, this is the point, if they could get away with it, automobile companies would have you sign an agreement that says you are never allowed to sell your car, only junk it. I got it, how about you go online to the Auto Companies Registration site and once the car is registered to you, no one else can buy it? Sound anything like DRM, but in this case it's ARM. It's up to the government entities, business, and customer standards to decided where corporate greed ends and customer rights begin. I've always been hostile towards DRM and don't expect that to change any time soon.

 

[balamw]

MOD NOTE: A quick remind of the forum rules:

Warez/Serials/Keys. Do not post software serial numbers or keys or refer people to specific websites, software, or techniques whose purpose is to break or bypass software licensing methods, distribute cracks, or obtain or use commercial software or media in violation of its license and/or for copyright violation. Do not ask for or give such help.

B

 

[AppLCII]

YArrr!!! Shiver me Timberz!! Make the DRM storez walk the plank! It's the PIRATE's life for me. I'll be found sailin' the treach'rous BAY for gamin booty galore! They're monopolizing the markets any-who, and sinking the brick and mortar market to boot. Rapin' and plundering is their game!

 

[Major.Robto]

When I had steam on my nice pc tower, I found it slowed the computer down alot. but just running. I had portal and TF2, still slow as all hell.

Now this was a good computer and could run photo shop nicely and some other high end apps.

But steam made the system crawl. I did a virus scan and a malwarebytes scan and nothing came up. Defraged and all of that fun stuff you need to do in windows offten. still slow as hell.

I went and reinstalled windows, and put my stuff back in, System was fine. Steam installed it became like **** again. and Steam refused to unintsall in windows 7, I had to reinstall 7 again!. Not a big deal because I just cloned the system after I reinstalled it the first time. 20 minuits later I was back and up and running.

I also hated it how you needed to be online to play single player games,

Portal is a one player game, Why do I need to be online to play a single player game?
Steam is on my system is that not enough?
at the time my DSL was acting up for about three to four weeks.


I'm not even a big fan of the app store for my mac, I hate it. I still download apps from the dev sites.

I'm just going back to useing my wii as a emulator for all of my old school RPGS I can enjoy that with no internet and no stupid client on my computer.

 

[0098386]

Haha, I don't believe you. It pushes 20mb ram, 0% CPU usage on my old Core2Duo 2006 iMac (under bootcamp) and the same under my new iMac.

Something else was wrong with your system.