Why does Apple act like Intel is always holding them back?

[Zdigital2015]

Please just stop with the hypocrisy, preaching and posturing. You keep doing precisely what you’re accusing me of. Did it ever occur to you that you can scroll past something you disagree without having to push your agenda? Your wasting your time.

I know the facts. I’ve been an “Apple person” for 30 years. Just because I prefer their platform doesn’t mean I need to stand up for or justify their questionable pricing practices.

I think they make great products, but I’m also impartial enough to call it like it is, greed. I have no skin in the game other than my own money spent, so I am not a blind “cult-like” member either. I’ll leave that for the investors or for those who just have some twisted addiction/obsession with Apple. Those types are immediately identifiable by their continued defensive and passive aggressive attacks.

You might wanna take a look over at your shoulder and remove your own gigantic “chip”. Like I said, the hypocrisy is pathetic.

More like Pot meet Kettle, you’re hilarious...we are ALL hypocrites. You are NOT the exception to that rule.

“I know the facts!”

“I’m not the hypocrite, you’re the hypocrite!” (paraphrasing)

Again, you’re hilarious! You’ll be here all week, right?!? Is there a two drink minimum?

????

 

[burgerrecords]

Apple appears to be making a choice to squeeze more out of customers today because they can (based on a combination of marketing to create a brand story ? , possibly being too slavish to aethetics, and having legit good products)

One risk is that you give users a reason to leave since they perceive they have had the dirty done on them (this requires Apple to be far enough ahead in the branding and products to keep enough folks from defecting).

Another risk is that, just as Steve Jobs complained about in the 1990s, that they don't retain sufficient marketshare.

Some of the design choices seems so aggressivly different and end up being bad (particulary for such a theoretically thoughtful and careful company) that it's hard not believe it's done to screw the customer.

 

[CWallace]

Agree to disagree. Not even close to the markup on RAM that Apple charges. Besides that, most of these companies you name allow you to install your own RAM and HDs in their portables. They aren’t soldered on and are easily user replaceable.

Haven't cracked open a modern slimline Dell, HP or Lenovo laptop lately, have you?

Seriously, I used to oversee warranty servicing for MacBook Pros, Dells, Lenovo and HPE at a pretty large company with thousands of units and talked with the techs those OEMs sent to handle repairs and oversaw them on a fair number of calls. While all agreed Apple was the worst*, all the slimline models (XPS, Carbon X1, etc.) were not much better - only the the Dell and Lenovo "thick as a brick mobile workstations" were close to "easy" to work on and even those had challenges in their packaging.

And even the "consumer" models are not that much better. My father has a newer consumer Dell laptop and you have to take the top and bottom covers off along with the keyboard to get to the RAM and storage. And this is one of the low-end models Dell ships shedloads of, so you'd think they'd put in some effort to make it easier to work on.


*- (Mostly due to the glue they use - on the flip side, they all agreed MacBook Pros were by far the most durable units.)

 

[dspdoc]

More like Pot meet Kettle, you’re hilarious...we are ALL hypocrites. You are NOT the exception to that rule.

“I know the facts!”

“I’m not the hypocrite, you’re the hypocrite!” (paraphrasing)

Again, you’re hilarious! You’ll be here all week, right?!? Is there a two drink minimum?

????

Precisely. So are you the pot or the kettle?
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Haven't cracked open a modern slimline Dell, HP or Lenovo laptop lately, have you?

Seriously, I used to oversee warranty servicing for MacBook Pros, Dells, Lenovo and HPE at a pretty large company with thousands of units and talked with the techs those OEMs sent to handle repairs and oversaw them on a fair number of calls. While all agreed Apple was the worst*, all the slimline models (XPS, Carbon X1, etc.) were not much better - only the the Dell and Lenovo "thick as a brick mobile workstations" were closed to "easy" to work on.


*- (Mostly due to the glue they use - on the flip side, they all agreed MacBook Pros were by far the most durable units.)

Recently opened up a lovely new Razer. It was incredibly upgradeable. ?

 

[Zdigital2015]

Listen, my biggest beef with Apple despite how great their ecosystem and products are, is their shameless planned obsolescence. They solder RAM and HDs because they know that without a doubt, sooner rather than later we will buy new machines. So instead of milking a nice long life out of a laptop by upgrading the RAM and HD, we have to simply buy an entire new machine. It’s very simple. I’m sure the stockholders are giddy over this tactic.

Ah, The “****ing Apple is fine with me, but I don’t like it so much when it’s on the other foot!” Defense! Got it!

One might say you’re being greedy, but I digress.

Again, comedy gold!????
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Precisely. So are you the pot or the kettle?
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Recently opened up a lovely new Razer. It was incredibly upgradeable. ?

I’m preferential to Kettle myself.
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Haven't cracked open a modern slimline Dell, HP or Lenovo laptop lately, have you?

Seriously, I used to oversee warranty servicing for MacBook Pros, Dells, Lenovo and HPE at a pretty large company with thousands of units and talked with the techs those OEMs sent to handle repairs and oversaw them on a fair number of calls. While all agreed Apple was the worst*, all the slimline models (XPS, Carbon X1, etc.) were not much better - only the the Dell and Lenovo "thick as a brick mobile workstations" were close to "easy" to work on and even those had challenges in their packaging.

And even the "consumer" models are not that much better. My father has a newer consumer Dell laptop and you have to take the top and bottom covers off along with the keyboard to get to the RAM and storage. And this is one of the low-end models Dell ships shedloads of, so you'd think they'd put in some effort to make it easier to work on.


*- (Mostly due to the glue they use - on the flip side, they all agreed MacBook Pros were by far the most durable units.)

I noticed that even the most recent Dell XPS 15” and 17” (2020) models looked very untidy when the case came off...just sort of stuff thrown everywhere. It reminded me of PowerBook G4 era motherboard design. I cannot imagine that in this day and age PC OEMs haven’t put forth more effort in engineering them to cut down on components and component costs to increase their profit margins a bit. This is where I feel like there is a fundamental lack of engineering discipline that PC OEMs would be fit from, but that upper manangment won’t allow because the R&D cost would rise and undercut to much and there is simply no will to raise prices in the OEM market as the competition is simply too predatory. It’s like a chummed ocean for most out there. Would you agree?

 

[burgerrecords]

Haven't cracked open a modern slimline Dell, HP or Lenovo laptop lately, have you?

Seriously, I used to oversee warranty servicing for MacBook Pros, Dells, Lenovo and HPE at a pretty large company with thousands of units and talked with the techs those OEMs sent to handle repairs and oversaw them on a fair number of calls. While all agreed Apple was the worst*, all the slimline models (XPS, Carbon X1, etc.) were not much better - only the the Dell and Lenovo "thick as a brick mobile workstations" were close to "easy" to work on and even those had challenges in their packaging.

And even the "consumer" models are not that much better. My father has a newer consumer Dell laptop and you have to take the top and bottom covers off along with the keyboard to get to the RAM and storage. And this is one of the low-end models Dell ships shedloads of, so you'd think they'd put in some effort to make it easier to work on.


*- (Mostly due to the glue they use - on the flip side, they all agreed MacBook Pros were by far the most durable units.)

No excuse for the non-portables to be as non-upgradeable as they are.

I would also be willing to have more ports at the expense of sleekness on all apple portables and phones - Consumers buy based too much on looks, i guess. Support on iphone for a USD40 256 gb SD card to have podcasts and photos on wouldn't kill anyone would it? The nintendo switch has support, but it would be just too technical for an apple product.

 

[MyopicPaideia]

Darn. I’ll bite. Apple’s profit margin has been incredibly consistent over the past several years, and hasn’t grown really at all since 2012. They haven’t been price gouging in any traditional sense of the concept. It is a well known fact that soldered parts allow for better packaging and have the additional side effect of being better performing and more durable that socketed equivalent parts. In addition, it is also the direction the entire industry is trending towards, which has already been pointed out by several members.

The original title of this thread was about Apple “blaming“ Intel and you calling into question why they weren’t updating to new Intel silicon in their products every year, suggesting Apple was being “lazy” for not doing so. This from a poster who only joined days before creating the thread, and has been “getting into it” in every thread participated in.

I think you’ve had more than enough well balanced and expert answers to this to satisfy the loaded topic, which has now derailed into something else entirely. What does complaining about Apple’s pricing strategy and using soldered components have to do with not using new Intel silicon every year?

 

[CWallace]

I noticed that even the most recent Dell XPS 15” and 17” (2020) models looked very untidy when the case came off...just sort of stuff thrown everywhere. It reminded me of PowerBook G4 era motherboard design. I cannot imagine that in this day and age PC OEMs haven’t put forth more effort in engineering them to cut down on components and component costs to increase their profit margins a bit. This is where I feel like there is a fundamental lack of engineering discipline that PC OEMs would be fit from, but that upper manangment won’t allow because the R&D cost would rise and undercut to much and there is simply no will to raise prices in the OEM market as the competition is simply too predatory. It’s like a chummed ocean for most out there. Would you agree?

I do - especially when I see things like electrical wires snaking across the boards to join various SMCs they have just crammed in wherever they could find some space.

 

[dogslobber]

This is a genuine question. Why does Apple act like Intel is always holding them back from releasing current machines every year? Does Intel not release new chips every single year? We are on to 10th gen. right now.

Intel’s roadmap has been sliding to the right due to scheduling delays as fabs can’t hit yield. When you design a system you have a long lead time requiring a well-defined schedule. When a vendor fails to make their dates then your product is delayed. This requires risk management so you have to weigh the risk of new tech missing a date which means you could go along time without product update. You weigh that against shipping a product with a volume component. The latter likely occurs when the schedule is too high risk for the newer chip.

 

[MHenr]

Listen, my biggest beef with Apple despite how great their ecosystem and products are, is their shameless planned obsolescence. They solder RAM and HDs because they know that without a doubt, sooner rather than later we will buy new machines. So instead of milking a nice long life out of a laptop by upgrading the RAM and HD, we have to simply buy an entire new machine. It’s very simple. I’m sure the stockholders are giddy over this tactic.

Most laptops with similar dimensions and a very compact form factor often don't have user upgradeable parts nowadays.
Sure, some will exist, but the trend is going towards non user accessible systems.

There's a simple way to avoid such issues; spec out your computer with decent hardware and you won't run into any issues.
That's not planned obsolescence on Apple's part, that's a choice you make when you buy a computer.

It's easier to buy the base model and complain 2 years later that you don't have enough RAM or disk space.
But that's not Apple's fault, you knew upon purchase that the specification of your product was probably not future-proof.
The same is true for tons of other products.

The most important part is this;
If you can't afford to or don't want to pay the prices a certain manufacturer charges for their products, then there are other products available for you.
You need to make a choice. Is this product worth the price to me?

But you can't go around complaining about the price of an item you'd like to have, but don't want to pay for.
Economics are involved and Apple has proven for years that the market is willing to follow their pricing and how they compose their portfolio.

 

[dburkhanaev]

1. Intel hasn't made any significant improvement since 2014, forget about the "generation" they said, they have literally redefine the word "generation".

2. Intel is still charging a heavy premium for their chips, what used to be a generation ahead of the industry, they are now a generation "behind" their industry.

3. Why should Apple continue to paid a premium for something that is not industry leading. And likely Intel is refusing to further lower its price for Apple.

4. Why should Apple continue with Intel when they could do it themselves at a lot lower cost.

5. Remember Intel 10nm was suppose to be out in 2017. Arguably at the current yield Intel 10nm is still barely out.

6. Intel lied. They lied and lied again until most of the industry were fed up and their CEO got replaced. People expect transparency with partnership. And you can look at Apple's Macbook Design to partly blame Intel, and Mac Pro took a lot longer to release as they wanted 10nm Server CPU which as of today is still not out.

All of this, but wasn’t there also an issue with quality control in recent generation Intel chips? I was thinking that there were some stability issues. Aside from hot chips that aren’t improving in performance I think there is more than one point of failure for Intel.
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Most laptops with similar dimensions and a very compact form factor often don't have user upgradeable parts nowadays.
Sure, some will exist, but the trend is going towards non user accessible systems.

There's a simple way to avoid such issues; spec out your computer with decent hardware and you won't run into any issues.
That's not planned obsolescence on Apple's part, that's a choice you make when you buy a computer.

It's easier to buy the base model and complain 2 years later that you don't have enough RAM or disk space.
But that's not Apple's fault, you knew upon purchase that the specification of your product was probably not future-proof.
The same is true for tons of other products.

The most important part is this;
If you can't afford to or don't want to pay the prices a certain manufacturer charges for their products, then there are other products available for you.
You need to make a choice. Is this product worth the price to me?

But you can't go around complaining about the price of an item you'd like to have, but don't want to pay for.
Economics are involved and Apple has proven for years that the market is willing to follow their pricing and how they compose their portfolio.

I somewhat agree with you, but I also think that when Apple sells a pro product that a degree of upgrade ability should exist. I think particularly in RAM and storage. I think thinnest and lightest form factor possible is great for their standard consumer line, but I’m wondering why the MacBook Pro can’t be the thinnest and lightest “pro” form factor in its category. Why does a pro portable need to compete with thin and light for non-pro form factors?

I know the question might end up being rhetorical because maybe only Apple knows why they are obsessed with this. But if Alienware announced a new gaming portable as the thinnest and lightest gaming portable but they released a portable with no fan, no dGPU, but it’s incredibly thin, it wouldn’t sell well to gamers. Likewise a thinnest pro portable with no port diversity, no robust cooling, and no Ethernet support have seemed weird to me. I have the MBP in 15” and I need the power. But I already have a variety of dongles and docking products that take up space in my carryon and don’t look slim or sleek when my MBP is wired up like a Christmas tree.

 

[ksec]

All of this, but wasn’t there also an issue with quality control in recent generation Intel chips? I was thinking that there were some stability issues. Aside from hot chips that aren’t improving in performance I think there is more than one point of failure for Intel.

The age of internet has made Clickbait articles rampant. Always question and ask ?

I think this has been explained elsewhere ( From Anandtech to other within the industry ) but a quick recap is that All chips has bugs. Including Apples. News like this gets blows out of proportion without any technical details. That is why you have Engineering Samples and different stepping introduced before going into production. And in all fairness Intel's chips are "extremely" stable. The amount of QA they do before production is still industry leading. ( You cant blame them on Spectre when the attack is completely new, although it has more to do with its uArch design taking some corners than anything else ).

 

[MyopicPaideia]

The age of internet has made Clickbait articles rampant. Always question and ask ?

I think this has been explained elsewhere ( From Anandtech to other within the industry ) but a quick recap is that All chips has bugs. Including Apples. News like this gets blows out of proportion without any technical details. That is why you have Engineering Samples and different stepping introduced before going into production. And in all fairness Intel's chips are "extremely" stable. The amount of QA they do before production is still industry leading. ( You cant blame them on Spectre when the attack is completely new, although it has more to do with its uArch design taking some corners than anything else ).

This is all true, but it is pretty “well documented” that Apple went through quite a time with Intel’s Skylake (I think it was that one?) chips causing an inordinate amount of problems traced back to QA issues.

 

[throAU]

This is a genuine question. Why does Apple act like Intel is always holding them back from releasing current machines every year? Does Intel not release new chips every single year? We are on to 10th gen. right now.

Because they are, and intel hasn't really released any upgrades worth snot since 2011.

In a decade, they've gained 30-50 percent.

In previous decades, we were getting gains of 50-100% PER GENERATION.

 

[MHenr]

I somewhat agree with you, but I also think that when Apple sells a pro product that a degree of upgrade ability should exist. I think particularly in RAM and storage. I think thinnest and lightest form factor possible is great for their standard consumer line, but I’m wondering why the MacBook Pro can’t be the thinnest and lightest “pro” form factor in its category. Why does a pro portable need to compete with thin and light for non-pro form factors?

There is a MBP with 32GB of RAM and 4TB storage. It's just as thin and light as the base model.
It's not user upgradeable, but you can't argue with the fact that those aren't pro laptop specs for storage and memory.

I'm not saying I'm a fan of not being able to add ram or whatever.
But the argument that you can't get a true "pro" MBP because it isn't upgradeable, is not correct.

I know the question might end up being rhetorical because maybe only Apple knows why they are obsessed with this. But if Alienware announced a new gaming portable as the thinnest and lightest gaming portable but they released a portable with no fan, no dGPU, but it’s incredibly thin, it wouldn’t sell well to gamers. Likewise a thinnest pro portable with no port diversity, no robust cooling, and no Ethernet support have seemed weird to me. I have the MBP in 15” and I need the power. But I already have a variety of dongles and docking products that take up space in my carryon and don’t look slim or sleek when my MBP is wired up like a Christmas tree.

Buying Apple hardware has always been partly about design as well. Apple are absolutely obsessed with it. In all their products, even software.
I love great design and even though I mainly use Macs for their OS and ecosystem, I can't say design was never a factor in me buying a Mac.
90% of non-apple laptops are still plastic appliances...

Alienware is famous for making true gaming capable systems in the form factor of a laptop.
It's perfectly functional and those systems do what they promise.
But it's not a MBP and neither is a MBP an Alienware.

I agree, dongles are ****. From an aesthetic standpoint and from a user friendliness standpoint.
But you can hook up pretty much anything over Thunderbolt.
The 4 thunderbolt ports on my MBP offer a lot more flexibility than a laptop with a HDMI, ethernet, 2 USB ports and maybe an SD card slot.
The downside is a small dongle...

People were outraged when disc drives were omitted
People hated it when smartphones dropped SD card expansion.
Apple was stupid to drop the headphone jack.
etc.

 

[LeonPro]

Apple bet on Intel after PowerPC. They already bet on the horse. Knowing they are switching to their own silicon chip, it didn't make sense for them to switch to AMD in the interim. This will help them in two ways:

1. Save money without further investing in R&D just to switch to AMD
2. Having better comparison numbers with their own Apple Silicon versus Intel when advertising the specs as they always do - i.e. 8.9X faster than the previous <insert previous generation model>

 

[Jyby]

Science Rules!

 

[Kostask]

Agree to disagree. Not even close to the markup on RAM that Apple charges. Besides that, most of these companies you name allow you to install your own RAM and HDs in their portables. They aren’t soldered on and are easily user replaceable.
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Listen, my biggest beef with Apple despite how great their ecosystem and products are, is their shameless planned obsolescence. They solder RAM and HDs because they know that without a doubt, sooner rather than later we will buy new machines. So instead of milking a nice long life out of a laptop by upgrading the RAM and HD, we have to simply buy an entire new machine. It’s very simple. I’m sure the stockholders are giddy over this tactic.

Nice long life out of a Windows laptop, for instance? Because Windows laptops are good for 3-4 years, tops? if they don't physically break, and many do, there will be Windows driver issues, or other software issues that render them unusable. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I am using a 11" 2012 MacBook Air (with the horror of soldered in RAM and a proprietary SSD) to write this. And it will still be good for another year or two. I work on 2012 Mac Book Pros, 2014 Mac Minis all the time. And they all work fine, and perform acceptably well. All sorts of planned obsolescence right there, considering that most people would have gone through at least 2 Windows machines in that time frame, and a few would have gone through 3. And even with the horrifying soldered in RAM and proprietary SSD, I have had a smaller, lighter, machine with a longer battery life, and better screen and keyboard than most Windows machines of even 3 years ago. In the Windows world, obsolescence comes in many forms, not just in terms of RAM cost and proprietary SSDs; Microsoft leads the charge in that category, with the hardware manufacturers lending a very big hand. I own a Dell XPS13" 9350 from new. Got it in 2016/2017. Battery went bad about a year ago. Called up Dell, looking to buy a new battery. Guess what? NO LONGER AVAILABLE. On a 2-3 year old laptop? Go to an Apple Store with a 2015 MacBook Pro, today. and ask for a new battery. "Please come back in an hour while we install the new battery". Note that the Dell XPS 13" cost as much as an equivalent MacBook Pro 13". Note that the Dell also has soldered in RAM. Where is the planned obsolescence, with Apple or Dell, or other Windows PC vendors?

 

[majus]

Every new Intel CPU requires a new socket and chipset, Apple doesn't want to "keep up with the Joneses" at the expense of profits.

Apple needs faster CPU's that are pin and chipset compatible to give incremental speed boosts until they are ready to redesign according to R&D costs and Fab costs.

Doesn't matter anyway, Apple will fully ditch them in two years.

I'm still on the fence about buying the 7,1. In the case of the 7,1, might Apple surprise us all with a pin-compatible ARM cpu which could be installed for an upgrade price? Or is such a thought wishful thinking on
my part?

I'm thinking about AMD's Skybridge, which may or may not still be in the works.

 

[CWallace]

I'm still on the fence about buying the 7,1. In the case of the 7,1, might Apple surprise us all with a pin-compatible ARM cpu which could be installed for an upgrade price? Or is such a thought wishful thinking on my part?

If we see Apple Silicon in the Mac Pro anytime soon, I would expect it as part of a PCI add-in card.

 

[majus]

If we see Apple Silicon in the Mac Pro anytime soon, I would expect it as part of a PCI add-in card.

Interesting thought which I had not considered.

 

[Kostask]

I'm still on the fence about buying the 7,1. In the case of the 7,1, might Apple surprise us all with a pin-compatible ARM cpu which could be installed for an upgrade price? Or is such a thought wishful thinking on
my part?

I'm thinking about AMD's Skybridge, which may or may not still be in the works.

I don't see why Apple would even think about creating something like this. Up front, the Intel CPUs are soldered in in most devices (laptops, Minis, and iMacs) so there is no socket, and any such IC would need to clip onto a quad flat pack, an iffy proposition at best. Secondly, there would be major issues matching up the AS CPU to the Intel Chipset, both electrically, and more than likely in terms of timing. Thirdly, Apple, should they want to allow people to upgrade from Intel to AS, would be far more inclined to build a new motherboard, a prospect that would be easier to do if the new AS Macs arrive in the same cases as are currently being used. This does open up a new can of worms, which becomes: How far back to you want to go in terms of allowing upgrades? To use the MBP 13" as an example, would it be the last Intel MBP, or two or three generations back? If you only go one generation back, people with older systems will complain. If you go more than one generation back, then connector placement issues will occur.

I don't think Apple will ever consider it an option, mostly because the Intel based Macs will be good for the next 5 years or so. In 5 years, it will be time to change systems anyway, and you can get an AS Mac then.

 

[dmccloud]

Every new Intel CPU requires a new socket and chipset, Apple doesn't want to "keep up with the Joneses" at the expense of profits.

Apple needs faster CPU's that are pin and chipset compatible to give incremental speed boosts until they are ready to redesign according to R&D costs and Fab costs.

Doesn't matter anyway, Apple will fully ditch them in two years.

That is not the case at all. Intel used the LGA1151 socket from the 6th generation through the 9th generation i series. They do update the chipsets, but usually with every other generation (i.e., 6th and 7th gen used one chipset, 8th and 9th both used the 300 series chipset.) Intel just now unveiled the LGA1200 socket and 400 series chipset in conjunction with the 10th generation parts being released.

Intel product specifications

Intel® product specifications, features and compatibility quick reference guide and code name decoder. Compare products including processors, desktop boards, server products and networking products.

ark.intel.com

 

[dmccloud]

Feel sorry for AMD also... x86/x64 is dying.. Intel and AMD are probably researching ARM chips already. But they will be challenged because Qualcomm leads ARM android mobile chips and is probably building beastie ARM chips for Microsoft.

One problem there - Qualcomm doesn't make its own chips - they also use TSMC to fabricate their parts, and the CPU in the Surface Pro X is a rebranded Snapdragon 865...

Qualcomm ramps up 7nm wafer production at TSMC, sources say

Qualcomm has increased its 7nm chip orders placed with TSMC looking to regain its 4G SoC market share, according to industry sources.

www.digitimes.com

Samsung, Globalfoundries to see growing threat from TSMC

TSMC has an over 50% of the global pure-play foundry market, and the establishment of its new US fab could pose a further threat to Samsung's foundry operations and Globalfoundries, according to industry observers.

www.digitimes.com

 

[Jyby]

One problem there - Qualcomm doesn't make its own chips - they also use TSMC to fabricate their parts, and the CPU in the Surface Pro X is a rebranded Snapdragon 865...

Qualcomm ramps up 7nm wafer production at TSMC, sources say

Qualcomm has increased its 7nm chip orders placed with TSMC looking to regain its 4G SoC market share, according to industry sources.

www.digitimes.com

Samsung, Globalfoundries to see growing threat from TSMC

TSMC has an over 50% of the global pure-play foundry market, and the establishment of its new US fab could pose a further threat to Samsung's foundry operations and Globalfoundries, according to industry observers.

www.digitimes.com

Neither does AMD. Only Intel and TSMC make those x86 chips.. Qualcomm designs their own chips and they make the most orders at TSMC... It means they have weight and power to control the market. AMD and Intel will have to compete with them and Apple for fab capacity