Why does Apple love firewire so much?

[lag1090]

A guy i work with says his firewire 800 drive is actually faster than his internal hard drive lol.

The only way in which a FW 800 drive can be faster than an internal is if the internal is using a slower PATA connection than the external drive's PATA or SATA-FW 800 bridge. Otherwise, the internal drive must be more full than the external or have something wrong with it to be slower than an external drive (assuming that both drives are in the 3.5" form factor).

In a situation with two brand new drives of the same model, the external drive can only have the same maximum speed as the internal drive. This is due to the fact that there is no such thing as a FW 800 drive, only PATA and SATA drives. All external drives are are internal PATA or SATA drives connected to a PATA/SATA-FW 800 bridge. The only possible scenario where the external drive could be faster is if the external drive is a SATA drive, while the internal drive is a PATA drive. This would be highly unlikely, though, as the FW 800 conversion would take a small chunk out of performance.

It's highly likely that your coworker is either lying, or he doesn't know how to properly conduct speed testing.

 

[QuarterSwede]

doesnt firewire have a different method of actually sending the data accross.. the checksum is much much faster, making it way faster, even though it technically isnt faster..

As already stated, USB sends data in packets and Firewire basically streams it. Firewire uses a hardware chipset controller (which is why it isn't included in the iPod's anymore) and USB is controlled via software and thus the CPU.

 

[yg17]

They are both pretty damn fast but I do find USB to be easier to find peripherals in.

Apple invented Firewire, thats why they still use it. But it has been slowly dying, and I don't see it sticking around for longer than another few years. USB on the other hand, its not going anywhere anytime soon.

Firewire will be here in some form as long as digital video editing is here. USB by design, regardless of its maximum speed, just can't do video editing due to the rather erratic and bursty (if that's not a word, it is now ) nature of it. Firewire is a nice, constant stream of data that's essential for video.

Eventually, eSATA may replace both USB and Firewire when it comes to external storage, but Firewire will still be around for video

 

[/V\acpower]

People seems to think that data transfer is all the same and that FireWire is only the USB for MAC.

 

[MisterMe]

... But it has been slowly dying, and I don't see it sticking around for longer than another few years. ...

FireWire is not slowly dying. With the increasing deployment of HDTV--particularly as cable TV goes high-def--FireWire is increasing its market penetration.

 

[DoFoT9]

As already stated, USB sends data in packets and Firewire basically streams it. Firewire uses a hardware chipset controller (which is why it isn't included in the iPod's anymore) and USB is controlled via software and thus the CPU.

aaahh that makes sense thanks for that info. who would make such a sill yproduct such as USB then??

 

[Foxglove9]

What I wonder is. If Firewire 800 can run FW400 peripherals, then why on the macbook do they have just a FW400 port? Would it really cost that much extra to make it a 800 port instead?

 

[CanadaRAM]

What I wonder is. If Firewire 800 can run FW400 peripherals, then why on the macbook do they have just a FW400 port? Would it really cost that much extra to make it a 800 port instead?

Yup. It's not just the port, it is a more expensive controller chip. Granted it may only add $5 at manufacturing, but that's $25 at retail. Just look at the difference in price between a FW800 external enclosure, and a FW400 external enclosure.

An issue with using USB for target disk mode may be (and I don't know for a fact) due to USB needing much more CPU intervention, which means loading drivers and more of the OS before it will work. Also, until the intel machines, you couldn't boot a Mac from a USB drive.

When can a Firewire drive be faster than an internal?

When the internal is a 2.5" 4200 RPM or 5400 RPM laptop drive that is almost full, and the external is a large capacity 7200 RPM 3.5" drive that is empty and has a nice big 16 Mb buffer.

When a drive is over 50% full, new data is being written to the inner tracks of the drive, where much less data gets transferred per second (the track length -- that is, the number of bits that can pass under the heads in one revolution) is shorter on the inner tracks. It's not unusual for the performance of a drive to drop by half as it moves from outer to inner tracks.

This is double-bad if the drive started out as a 2.5" laptop size drive, where the fastest outer track is already way shorter than a desktop drive. Triple bad if it is a 4200 RPM drive.

A 3.5 inch drive, particularly a large capacity one with perpendicular recording (which packs more data bits per track-inch), can push far more data per revolution.

Capacity also has something to do with it. 60 GBs on an 80 Gb drive puts you squarely on the inner tracks. 60 GB on a 500 Gb drive is still operating in nearly the fastest tracks of the drive.

 

[DoFoT9]

^^ damn you beat me to it RAMy. i was going to say pretty much exactly that. or something close to it.

 

[solvs]

FireWire is dying!?! I don't think so. For those of us who use it, that's just crazy talk. Maybe eSATA eventually, as said above, but they're also moving beyond 400/800 to 1600 and 3200.

 

[samh004]

They are both pretty damn fast but I do find USB to be easier to find peripherals in.

Low and behold it was adopted by all Windows boxes over Firewire and thus, took the market by storm.

Apple invented Firewire, thats why they still use it. But it has been slowly dying, and I don't see it sticking around for longer than another few years. USB on the other hand, its not going anywhere anytime soon.

FireWire is not slowly dying. With the increasing deployment of HDTV--particularly as cable TV goes high-def--FireWire is increasing its market penetration.

If FW is dying, why did they include FW800 on the new iMacs, seems like they are expanding it's use at last.

I remember back in the days when I first got a Mac, looking at the PowerMacs and new computers of the time and hoping I'd some day own something so powerful.

I'd got a FW800 drive for backups when I got my PB and would look at Apple's FW (cache) page, marvelling at the day I'd be able to use FW1600 or FW3200... sad though, that day will never come.

Or will it ? I haven't seen any references to it for a long time.

 

[steviem]

Firewire is the only real way of using the Migration Utility. You can't connect two USB hosts together as one or both of their buses will get overloaded.

I don't think Apple loves Firewire anymore - well for Consumer devices, anyway. Syncing music onto my old 3G was nice and quick. onto my 5G now (restricted to USB only) its a much slower process. Why couldn't they keep the firewire connectivity?

Firewire will stay on macs for as long as Digital Camcorders stay around.

 

[Eraserhead]

Syncing music onto my old 3G was nice and quick. onto my 5G now (restricted to USB only) its a much slower process. Why couldn't they keep the firewire connectivity?

Because Firewire needs its own hardware controller which takes up space .

 

[garybUK]

Also not every PC (most new ones do now) have Firewire, for iPod to become truely successful as it has was to move it to USB which almost every windows box has.

I've known a few cheap Firewire controllers to kill FW Ipods.

 

[steviem]

But my 3G used to be able to do FW and USB and wasnt that much bigger than my 5G is. Its just annoying, My iBook only has 2 USB ports as it is.. and one Firewire port that only gets connected up for importing DV.

 

[Steve Jobs=God]

Was reading one of my regular Mac magzines recently and there was a article stating that Apple is seriously considering discontinuing Firewire, can't remember the reasons, but i hope they don't i love firewire!

 

[DoFoT9]

Was reading one of my regular Mac magzines recently and there was a article stating that Apple is seriously considering discontinuing Firewire, can't remember the reasons, but i hope they don't i love firewire!

firewire is the BOMB!! i dont personally think they will loose it. because they practically invented it (somewhat)
one of the main reasons pc's dont use firewire, or because its costly is because companies have to pay a small proportion to apple as they have wateva the copyright law is on it, apparently.

 

[MisterMe]

... because they practically invented it (somewhat)
...

There is no "somewhat." Apple invented FireWire as a replacement for SCSI. It submitted the technology for IEEE standardization. FireWire became a published standard as IEEE 1394. Sony released an implementation under the trademark iLink. Apple submitted its trademark FireWire to the IEEE as the official nickname for IEEE 1394. It was accepted. Apple even modified its FireWire icon and submitted it to IEEE as the official FireWire icon. Long story short, there is little in FireWire that did not come from Apple.

 

[TBi]

firewire is the BOMB!! i dont personally think they will loose it. because they practically invented it (somewhat)
one of the main reasons pc's dont use firewire, or because its costly is because companies have to pay a small proportion to apple as they have wateva the copyright law is on it, apparently.

If it's an IEEE standard then apple can't charge anything for it unless they use the FireWire name. This is why pc manufacturers call them IEEE-1394 ports.

The reason they cost more is because they need a dedicated host chip. This dedicated chip helps firewire be faster than USB 2.0.

 

[sammich]

I think I read somewhere that USB2 runs on a 1mhz bus while FW1/2 runs on a 8mhz bus. Therefore, firewire is faster (and better)
PCI-E runs on a 60mhz+ bus or something, but it's in a different league.

I don't have a source for this.

 

[DoFoT9]

There is no "somewhat." Apple invented FireWire as a replacement for SCSI. It submitted the technology for IEEE standardization. FireWire became a published standard as IEEE 1394. Sony released an implementation under the trademark iLink. Apple submitted its trademark FireWire to the IEEE as the official nickname for IEEE 1394. It was accepted. Apple even modified its FireWire icon and submitted it to IEEE as the official FireWire icon. Long story short, there is little in FireWire that did not come from Apple.

If it's an IEEE standard then apple can't charge anything for it unless they use the FireWire name. This is why pc manufacturers call them IEEE-1394 ports.

The reason they cost more is because they need a dedicated host chip. This dedicated chip helps firewire be faster than USB 2.0.

oh so apple completely developed IEEE 1394. thats something i didnt know. thanks for that informations guys. its good to have incredibly smart and knowledgable people to teach the retards

 

[bimmzy]

Let's not forget that Apple invented Firewire so they're bound to plug it (poor pun )

Yes, in collaboration with Sony. And piles of their kit has the I. Link
IEEE 1394 connector.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

Low and behold it was adopted by all Windows boxes over Firewire and thus, took the market by storm.

That is not why firewire never took off like USB did. Firewire is a much more limited use than USB 2.0. On top of that the areas where firewire is a better choice to go with are few and far between. For most things USB is a much better choice to go with.

Most things we use on our computer the best choice to go with has always been USB. Lets see keyboard and mouse are best when put with USB. Also you have flash drives which the USB port is smaller than a firewire so means the flash drives are smaller.

Plus firewire is faster only in sustain data transfers so for most things the burst speed of USB 2.0 is faster.

That is the reason Firewire never took off like USB. It is to limited in it application on when it is useful. I willing to be good money most mac users never have even used their firewire port on their computer. The only time the average person really would use firewire for would be an external hard drive.
Heck the only reason I plug my ipod into the firewire port is because it is not used for anything else and I am near max out on my USB ports.

 

[TBi]

That is not why firewire never took off like USB did. Firewire is a much more limited use than USB 2.0. On top of that the areas where firewire is a better choice to go with are few and far between. For most things USB is a much better choice to go with.

Most things we use on our computer the best choice to go with has always been USB. Lets see keyboard and mouse are best when put with USB. Also you have flash drives which the USB port is smaller than a firewire so means the flash drives are smaller.

Plus firewire is faster only in sustain data transfers so for most things the burst speed of USB 2.0 is faster.

That is the reason Firewire never took off like USB. It is to limited in it application on when it is useful. I willing to be good money most mac users never have even used their firewire port on their computer. The only time the average person really would use firewire for would be an external hard drive.
Heck the only reason I plug my ipod into the firewire port is because it is not used for anything else and I am near max out on my USB ports.

Is there any proof that firewire could not handle a keyboard or mouse?

USB had keyboards and mice because they didn't need the bandwidth that firewire had. This higher bandwidth was better saved for hard drives and cameras. It also cheaper to put USB on board than firewire. However none of this actually shows that firewire can't do the same as USB.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

Is there any proof that firewire could not handle a keyboard or mouse?

USB had keyboards and mice because they didn't need the bandwidth that firewire had. This higher bandwidth was better saved for hard drives and cameras. It also cheaper to put USB on board than firewire. However none of this actually shows that firewire can't do the same as USB.

I never said it couldn't. What I stated was USB is better for keyboard and mouse. Apple has never made a firewire keyboard or mouse.
It a matter cost. USB has always been cheaper and easier to make.

Minus the sustain data transfer rate and the fact a little more power can be put though a firewire cable. Every where it takes a back seat to USB 2.0. That is the reason firewire never took off. It applications are just to limited on where it is a better choice.
USB has always been smaller and cheaper than firewire.
Yes USB 2.0 is over kill for a keyboard and mouse but the cost difference between a 2.0 port and a 1.1 port is very little any any at all. For almost everyone out their USB is better choice