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Ctrlos

macrumors 65816
Sep 19, 2022
1,377
2,900
These types of decisions, to leave out certain features on the lower end models, isn’t just simply because of money. Of course, it is because of money in the end, everything is.
But also as this video demonstrates (and several others as well) it’s not something the vast majority of customers who will be getting this phone on a contract for a discount are going to care about or ever notice.
Same goes with charging and data speeds, of course these phones *could* and from a technological standpoint probably should have faster speeds, but when 90% plus of your customer base is just uploading their pictures right to Facebook and never plugging their phone into a computer, there’s absolutely no incentive to do so.
Some nerds (who were already going to buy the “Pro” phone anyway) will be happy that a spec on a spec sheet went up, but that’s it.
It’s more that Apple are trying to convince their buyers that hardware features found on £250 phones are in some way ‘Pro’ and charging more money for it. VRR, USB 3.0 and 5000mah batteries are not.

They should be putting basics into the base models and pushing the Pro more. Where the heck is the manual camera app? Pencil compatibility? Some new thing nobody had thought of yet?!
 
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heretiq

Contributor
Jan 31, 2014
1,021
1,654
Denver, CO
I still don’t understand the argument. I’m pointing out Apple don’t provide great value to their customers at the base level or the Pro. How great a £250 Android phone is is beside the point: Apple are using hardware features it has to hawk £1300 phones.

As customers we deserve better.
I still don’t understand your argument. I might, if you provided a specific £250 Android phone that provides equivalent value to the unspecified £1300 iPhone you are comparing it to. Absent this you’re sharing an unsubstantiated opinion which is your right, but don’t expect others to get and perhaps agree with your point without more specificity.
 
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TgeekB

macrumors member
Sep 19, 2015
69
68
I still don’t understand your argument. I might, if you provided a specific £250 Android phone that provides equivalent value to the unspecified £1300 iPhone you are comparing it to. Absent this you’re sharing an unsubstantiated opinion which is your right, but don’t expect others to get and perhaps agree with your point without more specificity.
He can’t. It’s all just fantasy.
 
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heretiq

Contributor
Jan 31, 2014
1,021
1,654
Denver, CO
I’ve used quite a few Android phones. For years I used both Android and iOS and would switch off. They are not, in my estimation and experience, anywhere close. Android throws a bunch of “features” they know will entice people into a fragmented system that has the smoothness of a category 6 rapids. iPhones are designed, on purpose, to bring a smoother and more integrated experience. Perfect? Absolutely not, but I’ll tale it over the mess of Android any day.
To each his own though and if you believe as you do I don’t know why you would still be using iPhone. It seems like a no brainer if they are “90% as good as iPhone for 30% the cost”.
Bingo. Well said. It’s also odd how many Android proponents overlook the fact that Android device low prices are also subsidized by the ad and surveillance ecosystem that they enable. Privacy and security have value and comes at a cost. If someone prefers low-cost Android products and are fine with limited support and questionable security and privacy they should have at it, but I don’t understand the tendency to ignore these factors and besmirch products that are aligned with a different value equation.
 
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Ctrlos

macrumors 65816
Sep 19, 2022
1,377
2,900
I still don’t understand your argument. I might, if you provided a specific £250 Android phone that provides equivalent value to the unspecified £1300 iPhone you are comparing it to. Absent this you’re sharing an unsubstantiated opinion which is your right, but don’t expect others to get and perhaps agree with your point without more specificity.
It’s not about parity, but features. Of course a £250 CMF isn’t as good as a £1300 phone. But Apple is charging £500 more for features the £250 CMF includes.

It’s not unsubstantiated! You cannot buy an iPhone without VRR for under £1000. Apple still charges a premium for what is a basic feature. I mean they’re charging £800 for a phone that still uses USB 2.0 ffs.

I’ll never understand why people give Apple a free pass on this. Do they enjoy getting less features for their money? Less value? iPhones are brilliant but they could be and should be better. Jobs don’t nickel and dime his customers.

The point as always is that if Apple brought these basic features down to the base iPhone it would then be faced with having to make some more improvements to the Pro line. All of that is win/win.
 

Bungaree.Chubbins

macrumors regular
Jun 7, 2024
170
287
It’s not about parity, but features. Of course a £250 CMF isn’t as good as a £1300 phone. But Apple is charging £500 more for features the £250 CMF includes.

It’s not unsubstantiated! You cannot buy an iPhone without VRR for under £1000. Apple still charges a premium for what is a basic feature. I mean they’re charging £800 for a phone that still uses USB 2.0 ffs.

I’ll never understand why people give Apple a free pass on this. Do they enjoy getting less features for their money? Less value? iPhones are brilliant but they could be and should be better. Jobs don’t nickel and dime his customers.

The point as always is that if Apple brought these basic features down to the base iPhone it would then be faced with having to make some more improvements to the Pro line. All of that is win/win.
I don't care what numbers and acronyms are written on a spec sheet! How does the device work for me? What is it like to use?

I still dig in to specs, because I'm a nerd, but I no longer care about min/maxing my spec sheets. So what if my iPhone 14 doesn't have the most RAM, or a 120Hz display, or whatever acronym is popular these days? It's a great phone that I love using.

It reminds me of the Time Before, when I was a PC fanboy. I needed the most RAM, and the highest clock-rate, and would overclock things just to get a better benchmark. This all carried on until I got an old second-hand 350MHz G4 Power Mac to see what the fuss was with Apple that I was reading about. I didn't like OS 9, but once I'd put OS X Panther on it, I was blown away. This old 350Hz machine was way nicer to use, and ran more smoothly, than whatever Core 2 Quad I was using with Windows XP. Sure loading times were a touch slower, and transcoding was a lot slower, but it didn't lock up the machine like it would on XP!

That taught me to look at the whole package, and the user experience, since the vastly inferior machine was so much nicer to use!
 

heretiq

Contributor
Jan 31, 2014
1,021
1,654
Denver, CO
It’s not about parity, but features. Of course a £250 CMF isn’t as good as a £1300 phone. But Apple is charging £500 more for features the £250 CMF includes.

It’s not unsubstantiated! You cannot buy an iPhone without VRR for under £1000. Apple still charges a premium for what is a basic feature. I mean they’re charging £800 for a phone that still uses USB 2.0 ffs.

I’ll never understand why people give Apple a free pass on this. Do they enjoy getting less features for their money? Less value? iPhones are brilliant but they could be and should be better. Jobs don’t nickel and dime his customers.

The point as always is that if Apple brought these basic features down to the base iPhone it would then be faced with having to make some more improvements to the Pro line. All of that is win/win.
I get where you are coming from but believe that comparing phones on features alone is misguided. This is because most of us only need the 20% of functionality that is common with every phone: good voice and data network connectivity, a decent battery, a good display, and a good camera. Anything beyond these basic features (ancillary features) serves as levers of differentiation to drive incremental market share and product profitability. Apart from features there are a variety of non-functional factors that inform our purchases (build quality, UX, service quality, reliability, security, and trust). The standard for each of these decision factors vary from person to person so it's almost impossible to gain consensus on what is necessary and what is superfluous by discussing it one-on-one in forums like this.

The market is a better lense to observe what consensus looks like and the market likes what Apple is doing -- as it has rewarded them with consistent growth in market share, profitability and customer satisfaction scores throughout the history of the iPhone. I for one am happy with what I pay for my iPhone and what I get in return: Exceptional build quality, solid functionality (actually a surplus of functionality), solid reliability, exceptional service, and trust that my device is secure and my privacy is respected. I'm happy to pay a premium for it because I can't get the set of functional and non-functional requirements I value from any Android device.

Net-net: No one is giving Apple a free pass. They are an autonomous business enterprise competing against alternatives each with their own formula for delivering the best products and services at what they believe is a fair price. We can have our opinions but in the end we are all market participants free to choose from the alternatives available to us. Neither of us are wrong for choosing the product or service that aligns with our needs and values. What is wrong is expecting others to choose what I prefer -- no mater how well reasoned I think my choice is.
 

generallystupid

macrumors newbie
May 12, 2018
27
21
What is wrong is expecting others to choose what I prefer -- no mater how well reasoned I think my choice is.
Sometimes I tell my opinion about what I preffer about my phone to others, so they at least would know the features that there are available, I think that is a better alternative than bragging about what tech I use
 
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leifp

macrumors 6502a
Feb 8, 2008
522
501
Canada
IPad 1st generation 1.03 lb .23 D
iPad 2nd generation 1.04 lb .23 D
IPad 3rd generation 1.04 lb .23 D
iPad 4th generation 1.04 lb .23 D
iPad M4 .98 lb .21 D

(all cellular and WiFi)

How is it too thick and heavy? I actually get alarmed sometimes at how thin it is.
The ReMarkable 2 is a benchmark: 4.7mm thick (.19”) and 403g (.89 lb) make for a notably *cough* more enjoyable in-hand experience than my M4 iPad. Can it get even better? Don’t know. But it’s definitely better than any iPad…
 

Ctrlos

macrumors 65816
Sep 19, 2022
1,377
2,900
I don't care what numbers and acronyms are written on a spec sheet! How does the device work for me? What is it like to use?

I still dig in to specs, because I'm a nerd, but I no longer care about min/maxing my spec sheets. So what if my iPhone 14 doesn't have the most RAM, or a 120Hz display, or whatever acronym is popular these days? It's a great phone that I love using.

It reminds me of the Time Before, when I was a PC fanboy. I needed the most RAM, and the highest clock-rate, and would overclock things just to get a better benchmark. This all carried on until I got an old second-hand 350MHz G4 Power Mac to see what the fuss was with Apple that I was reading about. I didn't like OS 9, but once I'd put OS X Panther on it, I was blown away. This old 350Hz machine was way nicer to use, and ran more smoothly, than whatever Core 2 Quad I was using with Windows XP. Sure loading times were a touch slower, and transcoding was a lot slower, but it didn't lock up the machine like it would on XP!

That taught me to look at the whole package, and the user experience, since the vastly inferior machine was so much nicer to use!
I think about it this way: If I spent £100k on a car and it turned out that it didn’t have electric windows it’s something I could live without, but I’d be annoyed every time I watched somebody with a £5k car just pressing a button.

When it came to replacing that car after 5 years I could still live without the electric windows and I’d still buy the same model but it would seem like an obvious cut corner by the manufacturer on a small feature that would have made my life that tiny bit more convenient.
 

Ctrlos

macrumors 65816
Sep 19, 2022
1,377
2,900
I get where you are coming from but believe that comparing phones on features alone is misguided. This is because most of us only need the 20% of functionality that is common with every phone: good voice and data network connectivity, a decent battery, a good display, and a good camera. Anything beyond these basic features (ancillary features) serves as levers of differentiation to drive incremental market share and product profitability. Apart from features there are a variety of non-functional factors that inform our purchases (build quality, UX, service quality, reliability, security, and trust). The standard for each of these decision factors vary from person to person so it's almost impossible to gain consensus on what is necessary and what is superfluous by discussing it one-on-one in forums like this.

The market is a better lense to observe what consensus looks like and the market likes what Apple is doing -- as it has rewarded them with consistent growth in market share, profitability and customer satisfaction scores throughout the history of the iPhone. I for one am happy with what I pay for my iPhone and what I get in return: Exceptional build quality, solid functionality (actually a surplus of functionality), solid reliability, exceptional service, and trust that my device is secure and my privacy is respected. I'm happy to pay a premium for it because I can't get the set of functional and non-functional requirements I value from any Android device.

Net-net: No one is giving Apple a free pass. They are an autonomous business enterprise competing against alternatives each with their own formula for delivering the best products and services at what they believe is a fair price. We can have our opinions but in the end we are all market participants free to choose from the alternatives available to us. Neither of us are wrong for choosing the product or service that aligns with our needs and values. What is wrong is expecting others to choose what I prefer -- no mater how well reasoned I think my choice is.
It just sometimes seems like users give Apple a free pass on stuff, you know like they’re happy to be continually undersold a product.

It’s not like it’s just the iPhone either. Charging £249 for a £25 8gb RAM upgrade is daylight robbery and makes a big difference to the performance of a MacBook. It’s a simple shortcut because they sell the majority of base 8gb models in bulk to businesses and education. They know most individual uses will upgrade anyway.

Once they start piling on the Intelligence features users will end up turning them off so the OS doesn’t suffer.
 

Bungaree.Chubbins

macrumors regular
Jun 7, 2024
170
287
I think about it this way: If I spent £100k on a car and it turned out that it didn’t have electric windows it’s something I could live without, but I’d be annoyed every time I watched somebody with a £5k car just pressing a button.

When it came to replacing that car after 5 years I could still live without the electric windows and I’d still buy the same model but it would seem like an obvious cut corner by the manufacturer on a small feature that would have made my life that tiny bit more convenient.
I do get it, I used to think that way myself.

Now though, I see it as buying a $100k car that has port injection, and seeing a $5k car with direct injection. I don't care about what kind of injection either car uses, as long as my car works the way I expect it to.
 

MallardDuck

macrumors 68000
Jul 21, 2014
1,678
3,222
I have a fully loaded M4 iPad Pro here, and the biggest thing that’s disappointing about it besides the lack of Mac apps and OS customization is the battery life. The iPad has always been rated for 10 hours of battery life since the original iPad, but with the introduction of the M1 chip in the 2021 iPad Pro, since it resulted in a big battery boost in the Macs, it should’ve been a perfect opportunity to greatly improve the iPad’s battery. If the M1 wasn’t good enough, why couldn’t Apple give the M4 iPad Pro the battery boost it deserved? The M4 is a 2nd gen 3nm N3E chip built on ARMv9.4 architecture, which should make it more efficient. It’s the biggest chip upgrade since the M1, but instead, the battery life remained the same.

To make things worse for the battery (but better for battery health overall), Apple introduced a long-overdue toggle to limit charging to 80%. I keep that setting on all the time. The problem is that the iPad doesn’t even last 10 hours. Once you factor in the 80% charge limit, and the fact that it‘s not recommended to ever let your device fall below 20%, that brings the battery life of the iPad down to 2-5 hours, which is pathetic. Is anybody else bothered by the lack of battery improvement in the iPad Pro? Why doesn’t Apple want to give the iPads (or at least the Pros) decent battery life?
Physics.
 

TgeekB

macrumors member
Sep 19, 2015
69
68
I think about it this way: If I spent £100k on a car and it turned out that it didn’t have electric windows it’s something I could live without, but I’d be annoyed every time I watched somebody with a £5k car just pressing a button.

When it came to replacing that car after 5 years I could still live without the electric windows and I’d still buy the same model but it would seem like an obvious cut corner by the manufacturer on a small feature that would have made my life that tiny bit more convenient.
You know what makes my life more convenient? Having a device I can rely on. Having a device that integrated with my other devices. A device I know will hold value. A device that provides protection for my data. The rest is just icing in the cake.
If you want icing and not those other things, Android is your device. Don’t expect integration, security or an ability to sell it a few years later for a good price. To each their own.
 
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Ctrlos

macrumors 65816
Sep 19, 2022
1,377
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You know what makes my life more convenient? Having a device I can rely on. Having a device that integrated with my other devices. A device I know will hold value. A device that provides protection for my data. The rest is just icing in the cake.
If you want icing and not those other things, Android is your device. Don’t expect integration, security or an ability to sell it a few years later for a good price. To each their own.
iPhones nail the basics better than anybody else. But sometimes it’s nice to be sent flowers or told we look pretty, you know.
 
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TgeekB

macrumors member
Sep 19, 2015
69
68
iPhones nail the basics better than anybody else. But sometimes it’s nice to be sent flowers or told we look pretty, you know.
And that’s Android. Flowers that will wilt in a few days.
I’ve been where you are. I owned the first iPhone, was a huge BlackBerry fan before that, have owned lots of Android phones. They’re all different and bring something to the table. One is not better than the other for everyone. Go with what draws you to it without bashing the other for not being similar. No phone or operating system will give you everything you want so stop expecting that. I, myself, decided I didn’t need flowers or false promises. I want a solid, reliable phone and ecosystem. iPhone fits that perfectly. You need to make your choice and be done with it.
 
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HDFan

Contributor
Jun 30, 2007
7,290
3,339
The ReMarkable 2 is a benchmark

Apples vs sea shells comparison.

1. Black and White
2. Very limited apps and no ecosystem
3. No cellular

and so forth.

but if it meets your needs and low weight is your biggest priority then go for it.
 

leifp

macrumors 6502a
Feb 8, 2008
522
501
Canada
Apples vs sea shells comparison.

1. Black and White
2. Very limited apps and no ecosystem
3. No cellular

and so forth.

but if it meets your needs and low weight is your biggest priority then go for it.
It doesn’t. I have it, and barely use it. Every time I do use it, I wish either it was vastly more capable or the iPad was more in line with its size and weight.

As to your points: in time, the tech catches up. Do I want tomorrow’s tech today? No. But I also don’t find today’s tech “perfect”. Except perhaps the Mac Studio… once they update it to Thunderbolt 5. And if “AI” actually becomes 1. Useful and 2. A point for upgrading Macs… but back to wanting the iPad to get thinner and lighter: yes, I do. And a reference exists. Is it an ultimate/end goal? Nope. But better than any iPad for those elements.
 
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snipr125

macrumors 68020
Oct 17, 2015
2,006
3,122
UK
It’s not about parity, but features. Of course a £250 CMF isn’t as good as a £1300 phone. But Apple is charging £500 more for features the £250 CMF includes.

It’s not unsubstantiated! You cannot buy an iPhone without VRR for under £1000. Apple still charges a premium for what is a basic feature. I mean they’re charging £800 for a phone that still uses USB 2.0 ffs.

I’ll never understand why people give Apple a free pass on this. Do they enjoy getting less features for their money? Less value? iPhones are brilliant but they could be and should be better. Jobs don’t nickel and dime his customers.

The point as always is that if Apple brought these basic features down to the base iPhone it would then be faced with having to make some more improvements to the Pro line. All of that is win/win.
Yes the big one is faster refresh displays. Apple has somehow gotten away with this for years, when like you said £200 android phones have had them pretty much as standard. 60 hz displays on £800 phones is just criminal but the Apple apologists just give it a free pass for some reason, and even defend it sometimes.

The iPhone 17 (and other Air products hopefully) will be getting Promotion displays next year though according to many articles on MR.
 

bzgnyc2

macrumors 6502
Dec 8, 2023
382
408
Yes the big one is faster refresh displays. Apple has somehow gotten away with this for years, when like you said £200 android phones have had them pretty much as standard. 60 hz displays on £800 phones is just criminal but the Apple apologists just give it a free pass for some reason, and even defend it sometimes.

The iPhone 17 (and other Air products hopefully) will be getting Promotion displays next year though according to many articles on MR.

All else being equal does it use more energy? Because otherwise I'm fine with 60hz. There are other corners that I would rather Apple square than that one.
 
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snipr125

macrumors 68020
Oct 17, 2015
2,006
3,122
UK
All else being equal does it use more energy? Because otherwise I'm fine with 60hz. There are other corners that I would rather Apple square than that one.
At 120 hz it does use more energy of course, but you have the option to turn Off/On as one pleases. When On everything is so much smoother especially scrolling, and games can run at higher frame rates etc.
 
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TgeekB

macrumors member
Sep 19, 2015
69
68
All else being equal does it use more energy? Because otherwise I'm fine with 60hz. There are other corners that I would rather Apple square than that one.
Sure it does. Have you ever been on your iPhone with 60hz screen and the scrolling has been soooooooooo slow? Of course not. The gimmicks keep coming though.
 

snipr125

macrumors 68020
Oct 17, 2015
2,006
3,122
UK
Sure it does. Have you ever been on your iPhone with 60hz screen and the scrolling has been soooooooooo slow? Of course not. The gimmicks keep coming though.
Ok so your saying Promotion 120hz on the iPhone, iPad and Macbook Pro models is a gimmick?
 
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