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Makes sense. Same could be said if you could get them at Wal-Mart. People only want to spend 600.00 for a computer.

The mini is a big seller for business use. Brian Stucki of Mac Mini Colo said once that mini sales could be 2:1 business versus consumer.

I believe it because if I was running a Point of Sale or just needed a smaller computer to do basic stuff the mini is perfect.
 
The mini is a big seller for business use. Brian Stucki of Mac Mini Colo said once that mini sales could be 2:1 business versus consumer.

I believe it because if I was running a Point of Sale or just needed a smaller computer to do basic stuff the mini is perfect.

I have hundreds of users. No one has ever bought a mini for actual business use. I have 1 and it controls a TV. Maybe a small 5 person business in a strip mall. The ROI is terrible. Or like you said Point of sale cash register stuff.
 
Makes sense. Same could be said if you could get them at Wal-Mart. People only want to spend 600.00 for a computer.

Those are just amazon numbers, people who spend 600 dollars on a computer tower ( its what the mini is, you still need a keyboard monitor and mouse. Not included ), won't buy a Mini, they'll buy a Dell or HP or something like that tower. MUCH more power for the money. Which is why Apple makes up less than 10% of the home computer market. No budget models.
 
Iphoto may use the gpu a little, but this does not make it truly gpu bottlenecked. Everyone just assumes that with anything visual including raster based imagery, the gpu must be their problem.
iPhoto heavily depends on CoreImage. It uses it to display everything but it also uses it for all the edits you do. If you keep this in mind and add it up to the mere fact that the gpu also has to drive the big 30" screen which also consumes quite a lot of the graphics memory you know for sure it is the gpu that is lacking.

It could have been a slow hard drive, lack of ram, or a cpu issue. Consider that they use 2.5" drives. If you're not using an ssd, this means relatively slow drives.
Guess what I was using...yes an ssd :) In this case it was more likely to be lack of VRAM. The cpu and memory where doing very little when I was working in iPhoto. The only thing left in the entire equation was the gpu.

Really "graphics intensive" is a meaningless phrase unless we're talking about full OpenGL drawing or gaming.
For some non-OS X and non-Windows systems perhaps but in OS X and Windows absolutely not. Both have many frameworks that depend heavily on the gpu and will trigger the gpu to run. This is far more visible when using a MacBook Pro with 2 gpu's and the tool gfxCardStatus because you can actually see it change from the igp to the dedicated gpu and vice versa as well as which process causes the switch. Tools like Skitch, VMware Fusion and iPhoto do this.

The mini will probably always lack in the gpu department unless Intel graphics somehow become amazing. You won't really get much of an upgrade path in terms of gpus here.
There is one model with the more powerful AMD gpu but let's face it, cramming a lot of power into a very small aluminium casing is going to cause problems with heat thus we have to make some compromises. If we can have an external powerful gpu that would solve this problem for some. We do have to be realistic here. Let's not expect the top high-end cards as they require a lot of power and generate a lot of heat. The thunderbolt bandwidth will be a problem at the moment because it is limited to 10Gbit per channel but we'll see an increase in bandwidth in the future.

It's a mistake to think that attaching one of these to a macbook air will solve all of your graphics problems. It would increase the performance of the machine, but you can spend quite a lot for a minor bump.
No, it's a mistake to think that you know exactly what my graphic problems and needs are. Your entire reply is based on nothing but assumptions and they are all wrong. Assume as less as you possibly can, assumptions are mostly wrong.

In my case it would solve them because I need the increase in VRAM because of my 30" display. A bit more powerful card will be enough to do the other things I'd like to do. In my case the Nvidia Geforce 330M in my MacBook Pro 2010 seems to be enough. If it is a little bit faster I wouldn't mind. However, I certainly do not need something like the ATI 5870. So yes, in my case something like the 330M would definitely solve my graphics problems and fill my graphics needs when using something like an Air or a mini.

Btw, spending money on something can either make things more expensive or cheaper. It depends on what you buy and what it gives you. I have spent quite a lot of money on other stuff which in the end made it a lot cheaper because it did what I wanted it to do and it lasted for a long time. Like with flashlights: I can buy cheap ones for 5 euro but I can also buy the more expensive ones for 50 euro. The first category haven't lasted more than 6 months in my case, the latter has lasted about 10 years so far (it keeps going on). This external thunderbolt thing is the same thing. I also do not intend to buy something right now, perhaps next year. Prices will be different then.

I have hundreds of users. No one has ever bought a mini for actual business use. I have 1 and it controls a TV. Maybe a small 5 person business in a strip mall. The ROI is terrible. Or like you said Point of sale cash register stuff.
You are not the only person in the world and you are not the only person in the world who has hundreds of users. There are people out there with thousands of users. And yes, there are quite a lot that buy a Mac mini. Let's not forget the mini is the cheapest Mac you can get. It isn't the cheapest computer though. ROI is something that is different per company and even per department or per project group. Where I work we have several departments that have no use whatsoever for Macs. For them the ROI on Macs is 0, they don't make any sense. Other departments use OS X software extensively or to a lesser content. For them the ROI is much bigger because it is actually part of what they need to get the job done.

The same will apply for thunderbolt. Some will only use it for external drives, others for a display or a dockingstation/port replicator or a external gpu and others have no use for it at all. It certainly has potential to do some really cool stuff with simple machines like the Mac mini.
 
You are not the only person in the world and you are not the only person in the world who has hundreds of users. There are people out there with thousands of users. And yes, there are quite a lot that buy a Mac mini. Let's not forget the mini is the cheapest Mac you can get. It isn't the cheapest computer though. ROI is something that is different per company and even per department or per project group. Where I work we have several departments that have no use whatsoever for Macs. For them the ROI on Macs is 0, they don't make any sense. Other departments use OS X software extensively or to a lesser content. For them the ROI is much bigger because it is actually part of what they need to get the job done.

Whoa. Common sense. Impressive. Buying a mini is still a half assed cop-out. Like not really committing to OS X. Just dabbling. I'm not the only person in the world? Really? Did I say that I was? Ridiculous.

----------

Which is why Apple makes up less than 10% of the home computer market. No budget models.

This is a good thing. The public sucks. See above quote.
 
So everybody needs to buy a Mac Pro because that's the only way that anybody is committed to OS X? Why on earth do you need to be committed? Stuff simply has to work, period! Especially in business where time still is money.

Right... How about really using common sense by looking at the needs of the user and buying something that actually full fill those needs? I've had many people request Macs because the software or scripts they made over some years required OS X. If they don't need lots of processing power, lots of memory, lots of storage and/or lots of graphics power then I'm certainly not going to recommend anything like the iMac or Mac Pro. The 15" and 17" MacBook Pro are a bit different because the size of the display might matter, as well as having an anti-glare option (the EU actually has some regulations regarding this; long story short: glossy displays are considered to be bad for ones health and thus not recommended/forbidden). Many manufacturers/OEMs like Apple offer several types of computers for a very good reason: there is one for everybody. You simply have to pick the one that fits your bill the most. And that also means that not every product will have the same ROI for everybody.

You implied that whatever you saw applies to everybody in the world. So yes, you indeed did say that.
 
iPhoto heavily depends on CoreImage. It uses it to display everything but it also uses it for all the edits you do. If you keep this in mind and add it up to the mere fact that the gpu also has to drive the big 30" screen which also consumes quite a lot of the graphics memory you know for sure it is the gpu that is lacking.

I haven't tried such a large screen hooked up to a mini or Air.


Guess what I was using...yes an ssd :) In this case it was more likely to be lack of VRAM. The cpu and memory where doing very little when I was working in iPhoto. The only thing left in the entire equation was the gpu.

Like I said, if it won't support the protocol, it wouldn't be leaning on the gpu anyway. Some functions just won't run on the gpu without sufficient vram.


For some non-OS X and non-Windows systems perhaps but in OS X and Windows absolutely not. Both have many frameworks that depend heavily on the gpu and will trigger the gpu to run. This is far more visible when using a MacBook Pro with 2 gpu's and the tool gfxCardStatus because you can actually see it change from the igp to the dedicated gpu and vice versa as well as which process causes the switch. Tools like Skitch, VMware Fusion and iPhoto do this.

I'm well aware of the amount of OpenCL frameworks, although they use it when available. The Intel HD3000 doesn't support OpenCL acceleration, so it would be running off the cpu here. Yours may be a different one. Something as basic as iphoto still shouldn't choke it. That sounds more like a bug than lack of sufficient hardware.

There is one model with the more powerful AMD gpu but let's face it, cramming a lot of power into a very small aluminium casing is going to cause problems with heat thus we have to make some compromises. If we can have an external powerful gpu that would solve this problem for some. We do have to be realistic here. Let's not expect the top high-end cards as they require a lot of power and generate a lot of heat. The thunderbolt bandwidth will be a problem at the moment because it is limited to 10Gbit per channel but we'll see an increase in bandwidth in the future.

They stuck in a discrete gpu, yet used half the vram typically allocated to that gpu. 256MB is nothing. I think I had that much in 2004 on a G5.


No, it's a mistake to think that you know exactly what my graphic problems and needs are. Your entire reply is based on nothing but assumptions and they are all wrong. Assume as less as you possibly can, assumptions are mostly wrong.

That is entirely possible. I've used iphoto. I've seen others use it on the Air (I don't own an Air). I haven't experienced your issues. I will say that these machines should be fully capable of using something so basic out of the box. Apple makes a lot of odd decisions.

In my case it would solve them because I need the increase in VRAM because of my 30" display. A bit more powerful card will be enough to do the other things I'd like to do. In my case the Nvidia Geforce 330M in my MacBook Pro 2010 seems to be enough. If it is a little bit faster I wouldn't mind. However, I certainly do not need something like the ATI 5870. So yes, in my case something like the 330M would definitely solve my graphics problems and fill my graphics needs when using something like an Air or a mini.

Perhaps I underestimated just how bad the HD3000 really is.

Btw, spending money on something can either make things more expensive or cheaper. It depends on what you buy and what it gives you. I have spent quite a lot of money on other stuff which in the end made it a lot cheaper because it did what I wanted it to do and it lasted for a long time. Like with flashlights: I can buy cheap ones for 5 euro but I can also buy the more expensive ones for 50 euro. The first category haven't lasted more than 6 months in my case, the latter has lasted about 10 years so far (it keeps going on). This external thunderbolt thing is the same thing. I also do not intend to buy something right now, perhaps next year. Prices will be different then.

With things such as external gpus enclosures, I'd find it surprising if they go beyond a niche product considering improvements to integrated graphics and memory speeds. I mean real improvements, not marketing kool-aid. There are still people suggesting that the Intel HD4000 is a 2.5x improvement, yet that has little to do with real performance.
 
So everybody needs to buy a Mac Pro because that's the only way that anybody is committed to OS X? Why on earth do you need to be committed? Stuff simply has to work, period! Especially in business where time still is money.

Right... How about really using common sense by looking at the needs of the user and buying something that actually full fill those needs? I've had many people request Macs because the software or scripts they made over some years required OS X. If they don't need lots of processing power, lots of memory, lots of storage and/or lots of graphics power then I'm certainly not going to recommend anything like the iMac or Mac Pro. The 15" and 17" MacBook Pro are a bit different because the size of the display might matter, as well as having an anti-glare option (the EU actually has some regulations regarding this; long story short: glossy displays are considered to be bad for ones health and thus not recommended/forbidden). Many manufacturers/OEMs like Apple offer several types of computers for a very good reason: there is one for everybody. You simply have to pick the one that fits your bill the most. And that also means that not every product will have the same ROI for everybody.

You implied that whatever you saw applies to everybody in the world. So yes, you indeed did say that.

You are definitely the king of filling words into others mouths. Nowhere did I even mention "the World" did I? You are assuming and reading into my post to bolster your banal points.

So let me try to help you along.
Out of all MY users NO ONE has bought a Mac Mini save but for 1 that runs a TV entertainment system. We don't stop them per se. But maybe we just like overspending.

I buy and recommend hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of gear annually and have been employed for many many years doing this successfully for companies I know you'd be familiar with.

On a side note how are glossy displays bad for ones health when the toxic coating of Matte displays have been found to cause cancer in users and manufacturers? Just wondering.

People can buy whatever the hell they want. Just not at my business's. Not to mention the display and keyboard and mouse hodgepodge that results. They end up with corporate PC Dell displays and blue cast monitor profiles because if all they need is a mini there isn't any way we're buying them a profiling solution to stop their display from looking like ass using the default profiles. Add in the rest of the costs and you might as well have bought the lower end iMac.
 
Not to mention the display and keyboard and mouse hodgepodge that results.

:rolleyes:


mini.jpg
 
Just wanna throw it in, The external GPUs are hiliarous. They are nothing more than Wallet Rape. With no lube. I bet that external GPU case/PSU/Tbolt cable will cost upwards of 600 dollars knowing apple.

600 Dollars for that stupdi external GPU+ Mac Mini at Another 600 comes out to about 1200, plus another 500-600 in a monitor and keyboard.

Hell, for that kind of money. Dell will build you a pretty amazing and capable XPS system. With a better warrenty than apple lol
 
Maybe a consolidation of all three desktops into one or a least heading in that direction.
 

And the end cost of that pic in today's offerings?
599.00 Base Mac Mini
999.00 27" Cinema Display (Only Apple display)
49.00 Keyboard
69.00 Magic Mouse

Clean Mac Mini solution: 1716.00
iMac 27": 1699.00

Mini: 2.3GHz Core i5: 5840
iMac: 2.7GHz Core i5: 7830

Spend more, get less.
 
With their new naming scheme, I am surprised we actually won't have a, just "Mac". Seems like the missing link.
 
And the end cost of that pic in today's offerings?
599.00 Base Mac Mini
999.00 27" Cinema Display (Only Apple display)
49.00 Keyboard
69.00 Magic Mouse

Clean Mac Mini solution: 1716.00
iMac 27": 1699.00

Mini: 2.3GHz Core i5: 5840
iMac: 2.7GHz Core i5: 7830

Spend more, get less.

Spend more, get less. Its the Apple way.

The Mac Mini, is probably one of the worst Macs ever made. Its slow, its expensive, its non expandable, its GPU options are a slap in the face, they rape you on anything you can add to it.

Whenever someone wants a Mac mini, I always tell them to work harder and get an iMac.
 
Why in the name of god would that be a good thing?

Good for Apple's bottom line, easy choice for the consumer. As few sizes as possible to fit all with BTO options. Maybe sort of back to the 1984 Macintosh. :D
 
Good for Apple's bottom line, easy choice for the consumer. As few sizes as possible to fit all with BTO options. Maybe sort of back to the 1984 Macintosh. :D

Not only would it hurt Apples bottom line, it would hurt the consumer.

If you only offer ONE model. The majority of Apple's customers will leave for Windows Based machines. Customers like choice.

Not everyone needs a Mac Pro
Not everyone wants a Mac Mini
Not everyone is into an iMac.

Choice is good for Apple and good for the consumer.
 
Like I said, if it won't support the protocol, it wouldn't be leaning on the gpu anyway. Some functions just won't run on the gpu without sufficient vram.
Yup. I suspected it was the gpu that was lacking a bit since everything else seemed fine. After some digging I got my confirmation regarding the gpu.

I'm well aware of the amount of OpenCL frameworks, although they use it when available. The Intel HD3000 doesn't support OpenCL acceleration, so it would be running off the cpu here.
The gfxCardStatus and gpu switching stuff is mostly non-OpenCL stuff though. In case of the HD 3000 it remains to be seen if it would add anything since the gpu is on the cpu.

Yours may be a different one. Something as basic as iphoto still shouldn't choke it. That sounds more like a bug than lack of sufficient hardware.
It isn't. It is a combination of actual gpu power and amount of vram. It seems that driving a 30" display is indeed possible but doing more graphic "intensive" stuff like using an app that heavily depends on it (aka iPhoto) is pushing the limits of the gpu.

They stuck in a discrete gpu, yet used half the vram typically allocated to that gpu. 256MB is nothing. I think I had that much in 2004 on a G5.
Yup but it is fine for most people I guess. Not that many have a 30", not at that time anyway. Maybe having 512MB of vram would have been enough.

That is entirely possible. I've used iphoto. I've seen others use it on the Air (I don't own an Air). I haven't experienced your issues. I will say that these machines should be fully capable of using something so basic out of the box. Apple makes a lot of odd decisions.

With things such as external gpus enclosures, I'd find it surprising if they go beyond a niche product considering improvements to integrated graphics and memory speeds. I mean real improvements, not marketing kool-aid. There are still people suggesting that the Intel HD4000 is a 2.5x improvement, yet that has little to do with real performance.
I don't know. It is a possibility that they don't go past being a niche product but from what I see nearly everywhere is that people like Thunderbolt for 3 reasons: dockingstation for MacBooks, external gpu and faster external disks. I think it has a good chance.

You are definitely the king of filling words into others mouths. Nowhere did I even mention "the World" did I? You are assuming and reading into my post to bolster your banal points.
Yes you did. You definitely need to read your post better, especially how it comes across and what it says between the lines. I'll give an example:

Out of all MY users NO ONE has bought a Mac Mini save but for 1 that runs a TV entertainment system. We don't stop them per se. But maybe we just like overspending.

I buy and recommend hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of gear annually and have been employed for many many years doing this successfully for companies I know you'd be familiar with.
Now let us analyse that little bit of text and look at from what perspective it is written. Yes, it is entirely written from your own view as can be seen by the use of words like "my" and "I". Nowhere in this text does it reflect any other person but you.
If I were to talk like that than my conclusion would be the same as yours. The only person I know who has bought a Mac mini would be me. There is nobody else I know who has a Mac mini. There are many with things like a MacBook Pro, Air and an iMac though. However, when I look at others than I see something entirely different. Thus, my situation does not depict everybody's situations as it seems to differ. You do not seem to understand this very essential part as you keep on talking about your situation and thinking that this depicts the situation of everybody in the world. It definitely does not. There even are sales figures to proof that.

It is simple linguistics ;)

On a side note how are glossy displays bad for ones health when the toxic coating of Matte displays have been found to cause cancer in users and manufacturers? Just wondering.
Because your eyesight has to concentrate on a lot of things and has to distinguish them. This leads to things like sore eyes, dry eyes, headaches, dizzyness, etc.

The cancer part is false. There has been no such proof. The only proof is that there might be some chance of raised level of running the risk of catching cancer. Those percentages are also very low. Think about 1 to 3% increase in risk. If you actually know your stuff you'd know that there are many other parts in a display that can also cause an increased risk.
Btw, glossy displays are coated exactly like matte displays are so the same thing applies here.

They end up with corporate PC Dell displays and blue cast monitor profiles because if all they need is a mini there isn't any way we're buying them a profiling solution to stop their display from looking like ass using the default profiles. Add in the rest of the costs and you might as well have bought the lower end iMac.
When I had that happen it was the display that was broken. It had nothing to do with the OS or the colour profile it was using (which you can calibrate by hand and distribute to all clients). In most cases the colour profiling is useless anyway due to the use of TN panels (because those are cheap and easy to get). Colour profiling does nothing with those panels.

The rest of the costs are not always there. In some cases people already have things like a keyboard, mouse and monitor. In other cases people get the choice in display, keyboard and mouse unlike with the iMac and Mac Pro. The latter only has choice in display; you get the keyboard and mouse whether you want/need them or not and thus paying for stuff you don't want/need. Don't forget that some organisations have contracts regarding things like peripherals and displays and stock these so there is no need to order these with new computers.

This obviously doesn't mean that a Mac mini is always the cheapest option. It can be and so can the Mac Pro and the iMac. It all depends on your own requirements, needs and whatever you already have (or the user if we are talking about an organisation). Like someone already stated here: we need choice because everybody does it a little bit different. Even within 1 organisation. We as sysadmins need to give the users what they need, not what we want them to use!
 
^^^ I only speak for myself and my experience. Others have other experiences. I'm not sure where else we can take this. You assume I mean more than what I say. Compliment that I am even that savvy, I guess? :confused:
The monitor profile thing is pretty much all other default display profiles. I am probably more sensitive than most though. All look terrible without proper HW calibration. Only NEC PA series defaults look acceptable to my very stringent eyes. Dell, Acer, LG, HP all have really bad color profiling out of the box on a Mac. My point was if you are cheaping out and getting a mini you probably don't want to spend 250.00 more for a profiling system.
 
And the end cost of that pic in today's offerings?
599.00 Base Mac Mini
999.00 27" Cinema Display (Only Apple display)
49.00 Keyboard
69.00 Magic Mouse

Clean Mac Mini solution: 1716.00
iMac 27": 1699.00

Mini: 2.3GHz Core i5: 5840
iMac: 2.7GHz Core i5: 7830

Spend more, get less.

Nicee .. I never understand people who are willing to go with Mini solution as you proposed. It's not like Mini is any more upgradeable than iMac could. Yet it has low performance and high price. Terrible purchase.
 
Nicee .. I never understand people who are willing to go with Mini solution as you proposed. It's not like Mini is any more upgradeable than iMac could. Yet it has low performance and high price. Terrible purchase.

The Mac Mini is something that should be replaced by a mid tower, or a shuttle sized computer, or something like the G4 cube, or those werid Slimline/atx based comptuers Dell had for awhile.

Woohoo! Its small! But its expensive! And can't perform!

Not that this thread matters, we're getting a new Mac Pro is looks like.

My credit card it waiting to be melted :D
 
The monitor profile thing is pretty much all other default display profiles. I am probably more sensitive than most though. All look terrible without proper HW calibration. Only NEC PA series defaults look acceptable to my very stringent eyes. Dell, Acer, LG, HP all have really bad color profiling out of the box on a Mac. My point was if you are cheaping out and getting a mini you probably don't want to spend 250.00 more for a profiling system.

Display profiling can add a certain amount of time to assembly and depending how it's conducted, it can add a lot to manufacturing costs. NEC has improved quite a lot. It used to be only their most expensive stuff that I liked. In 2004-2006 that meant $1500-2000 for a 21" display (old 2180 or 2190 UXi models) or $6k for a wide gamut version. They were one of the first to use an RGB-LED design with an adjusted gretag macbeth colorimeter to get roughly Adobe 1998 coverage. I've had some amusing discussions on color profiling where people believe the .1 Delta E deviation readings measured by their colorimeter after profiling, where they don't seem to get that this isn't terribly meaningful from a display + measurement device + software package combination with a likely margin of error in the realm of 3-4 Delta E at best with extreme shadows likely being of a higher deviation, and even then it's only measuring the center. Dell got a lot of complaints at one point where they were just measuring the center point and the displays had some amount of uniformity problems overall. In all cases if they measure these values are set to an LUT which is probably not accessible outside of the factory and a default profile is assigned. I think NEC just does a better job measuring primaries. They might better instruments. In the case of Eizo, you get a shiny certificate showing the average Delta E deviation from the measured color values across 28 patches on the display. Given that they use a standard of 3 Delta E there, and even Barco was around 1.5, I don't see how anyone would believe that their Dell is that much finer in tolerance:p.

By the way, NEC may drift pretty badly as they age, but in terms of service life, they're practically immortal.


Yup. I suspected it was the gpu that was lacking a bit since everything else seemed fine. After some digging I got my confirmation regarding the gpu.


The gfxCardStatus and gpu switching stuff is mostly non-OpenCL stuff though. In case of the HD 3000 it remains to be seen if it would add anything since the gpu is on the cpu.


It isn't. It is a combination of actual gpu power and amount of vram. It seems that driving a 30" display is indeed possible but doing more graphic "intensive" stuff like using an app that heavily depends on it (aka iPhoto) is pushing the limits of the gpu.

Bleh... it needs better tuning or they assigned insufficient vram. I consider it insufficient when many applications suggested 512MB as a minimum last year. Minimum requirements should not be an issue with often mass market software during the same year you purchased the machine. It's a low end configuration for Apple, but you're still going to drop over $1000 fully configured with a display, keyboard, and mouse. It just seemed a little crippled on vram either to shave a few dollars off the manufacturing cost or shave off a few watts. It's kind of annoying because it ceases being economical rather quickly.
 
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