Why is HD4000 not good enough on 2012 mini?

[FluJunkie]

I've never understood all the "If you wanted to game, you should have bought a PC" arguments.

I don't think its unreasonable to want to be able to buy a Mac that can play some moderately demanding (D3 or Starcraft isn't pushing anything) games from large publishers.

I especially don't think its unreasonable to be annoyed that the Mini got worse at it.

 

[Ice Dragon]

I've never understood all the "If you wanted to game, you should have bought a PC" arguments.

I don't think its unreasonable to want to be able to buy a Mac that can play some moderately demanding (D3 or Starcraft isn't pushing anything) games from large publishers.

I especially don't think its unreasonable to be annoyed that the Mini got worse at it.

I will explain. I think if you want to game, you should be able to game at best settings possible which Apple does not offer.

 

[FluJunkie]

I will explain. I think if you want to game, you should be able to game at best settings possible which Apple does not offer.

So if you can't play on maximum settings, you shouldn't bother playing at all?

 

[Ice Dragon]

So if you can't play on maximum settings, you shouldn't bother playing at all?

Not entirely, but I should be able to play very smoothly for at least some games that aren't Crysis. To me that requires a good discrete card with a good amount of memory. Intel is on the right track but still has a ways to go.

 

[Serban]

Maybe Intel will be a bit better with their haswell hd 4600 i think will be the number and with this i think games like d3 and star2 will be playable max out in 1080p i think and games like crysis 3 will be maybe on medium

 

[Ice Dragon]

Maybe Intel will be a bit better with their haswell hd 4600 i think will be the number and with this i think games like d3 and star2 will be playable max out in 1080p i think and games like crysis 3 will be maybe on medium

Oh I have confidence with the Intel HD 4600 and I will buy a quad-core Mac mini fairly soon after its release. I am due for an upgrade after my 2011 dual-core mini even though my dual-core mini is still running well.

 

[SR45]

Simple guys...Apple does not want the MacMini to be a gaming system, and would like you gamers to buy something more expensive. Just pure Apple $$ logic. Or perhaps they found that putting a better card that is available, the heat was too much for the fan to cool it, and just made the decision to leave it out this time around. Another year, and perhaps Apple will do something different.

 

[chickenwingfly]

Simple guys...Apple does not want the MacMini to be a gaming system, and would like you gamers to buy something more expensive. Just pure Apple $$ logic. Or perhaps they found that putting a better card that is available, the heat was too much for the fan to cool it, and just made the decision to leave it out this time around. Another year, and perhaps Apple will do something different.

I believe so, unfortunately for Apple, Intel has been doing well with the integrated graphics solution and the HD4600 should prove that even further, so there won't be anything that Apple can do about it, which is great.

Like others said, not like you buy a Mini for gaming (or a Mac at all if we're honest), but sometimes I feel it's pushed as the "media center" solution (don't really understand some people 'wasting' 500/600/700 USD on a Mini just to stream movies), although it's very capable of being the core computer at home (like in my case).

Say Timmy would like you to go ahead and grab an iMac or an expensive MBP.

But leaving love and hate issues aside, yes, the HD4000 is not that great but Haswell and Skylake (or whatever) should improve a lot over it, says the theory and Murphy. Which is quite astonishing, as years ago integrated graphics solutions meant playing solitaire and minesweeper.

 

[Ice Dragon]

Haswell is next and then the process will shrink down to Broadwell at 14nm. Then it will be followed by Skylake still at 14nm and Skymont at 10nm.

I have no problem with Apple not wanting the mini to be a gaming machine but they are not selling me on anything other than the ultimate 27" iMac with the 680MX. Even the 675MX doesn't cut it.

If the upper 21.5" had at least the option of doubling the graphics memory from 512 MB to 1 GB for the 650M (so as to not undercut the rMBP) that would be fine.

 

[gregorsamsa]

So if you can't play on maximum settings, you shouldn't bother playing at all?

Not entirely, but I should be able to play very smoothly for at least some games that aren't Crysis. To me that requires a good discrete card with a good amount of memory. Intel is on the right track but still has a ways to go.

Couldn't agree more with Ice Dragon! My Mini with a HD 6630M GPU cost me almost £700 new + the Apple Care. For that money, I don't expect anywhere near cutting-edge GPUs. Certainly not inside a Mac Mini.

However, having only 256 VRAM is a bummer from a number of aspects, gaming included, which could so easily have been avoided, at little extra cost. As a comparison, even a fair number of mid-range, PC non-gaming laptops with same card have 1 GB VRAM.

 

[Ice Dragon]

However, having only 256 VRAM is a bummer from a number of aspects, gaming included, which could so easily have been avoided, at little extra cost. As a comparison, even a fair number of mid-range, PC non-gaming laptops with same card have 1 GB VRAM.

An option to double the VRAM could have worked for an extra $100 and because all the iMacs had better video cards in them, I don't think the options would have undercut iMac sales.

 

[gregorsamsa]

An option to double the VRAM could have worked for an extra $100 and because all the iMacs had better video cards in them, I don't think the options would have undercut iMac sales.

Agreed. Double it, or even quadruple, at similar extra cost (circa $100) to the consumer. We all know that VRAM is fairly cheap, esp when bought in bulk.

Would offering 1 GB VRAM on higher-end Minis risk cannibalizing iMac sales? Most probably not if Apple did only what was merely reasonable & also offered 1 GB VRAM as standard inside the entry-level iMac.

As you say, iMacs would still have better GPUs, more power in other respects & some people will always prefer AIOs. Ultimately there is no credible reason whatsoever not to offer better GPUs in Minis & iMacs.

As stated, even brand name, mid-range PC laptops with discrete GPUs not designed primarily for gaming, priced under $1000, have at least 1 GB VRAM. Why a non-upgradable desktop starting at about $799 can't have the same, is surely down to corporate greed. I've a very high opinion of many Apple products, but not so the company.

 

[barkmonster]

There is one other thing to consider that hasn't been brought up. Thanks to thunderbolt running external GPUs is now a real option. It ain't cheap, but it is a possibility, especially for those who want to boot into Windows.

The external GPU idea is absolute nonsense.

Thunderbolt barely handles PCIe 2.5x. Typical GPUs are PCIe 16x, doublewide and even draw extra power from the motherboard that a PCIe slot alone can't provide. NONE of that is possible with Thunderbolt, EVER.

 

[Ice Dragon]

The Thunderbolt GPU is a novel idea but yeah I wouldn't want it. I have my USB mouse, USB keyboard, ethernet, power cord, and HDMI cable and I am happy.

 

[mus0r]

Honestly, I think people just like to complain. I play World of Warcraft just fine on my 2012 Mini with good settings.

Some people don't seem to realize there's diminishing returns with high frame rates. You literally can't see the difference, AND it makes your Mac run way hotter.

 

[barkmonster]

Honestly, I think people just like to complain. I play World of Warcraft just fine on my 2012 Mini with good settings.

Some people don't seem to realize there's diminishing returns with high frame rates. You literally can't see the difference, AND it makes your Mac run way hotter.

I always thought it was to do with the motion bluring inherant in real life video footage so to achieve the 24fps with motion blur you're used to from the cinema, you'd need game frame rates of at least 48fps.

I don't see how people don't just use half the native resolution of their screen to get higher frame rates that way and up the anti-ailiasing ratio. Surely with fast motion, from a reasonable distance 1920 x 1080 with a noticably low frame rate is going to be much worse in-game than 960 x 540 with 4 x anti-ailasing and a smooth frame but the perceived resolution wouldn't be noticiable until you paused the gameplay?

 

[FluJunkie]

Couldn't agree more with Ice Dragon! My Mini with a HD 6630M GPU cost me almost £700 new + the Apple Care. For that money, I don't expect anywhere near cutting-edge GPUs. Certainly not inside a Mac Mini.

However, having only 256 VRAM is a bummer from a number of aspects, gaming included, which could so easily have been avoided, at little extra cost. As a comparison, even a fair number of mid-range, PC non-gaming laptops with same card have 1 GB VRAM.

I think you're misreading my statement - I was expressing confusion at the idea that gets trotted out in threads like this where if you complain about your ability to game at all, it gets dismissed as "Pfft, buy a gaming PC".

 

[Ice Dragon]

I think you're misreading my statement - I was expressing confusion at the idea that gets trotted out in threads like this where if you complain about your ability to game at all, it gets dismissed as "Pfft, buy a gaming PC".

Understandable and pardon me for misreading your statement. Progress is being made on the video front with integrated graphics but still has a ways to go.

 

[gregorsamsa]

I think you're misreading my statement - I was expressing confusion at the idea that gets trotted out in threads like this where if you complain about your ability to game at all, it gets dismissed as "Pfft, buy a gaming PC".

My apologies & thanks for the clarification. I quite agree! There's a tendency from a minority to defend whatever Apple does & dismiss all criticism.

However, observations about needlessly hobbled GPUs on premium-priced hardware to, presumably, save a few dollars, never go away & for VG reason. The posters may change over the years, but the same observations remain.

Not that the HD 4000 is poor. In fact, for an integrated card, benchmarks show it to be reasonably capable. But dropping a discrete GPU option in the Mini, as existed in 2011, & not offering 1 GB VRAM is, IMO, a backward step. Latter is almost an industry standard for a lot of similar priced PCs, laptops included. Even if Apple charged a bit extra, they could have left us that option on a higher-end Mini.

Haswell chipsets will offer a significant leap forward. However, as much I like my Mini in many respects, Apple's future roadmap here is the main reason for me getting a mid-range, gaming PC.

 

[barkmonster]

My apologies & thanks for the clarification. I quite agree! There's a tendency from a minority to defend whatever Apple does & dismiss all criticism.

However, observations about needlessly hobbled GPUs on premium-priced hardware to, presumably, save a few dollars, never go away & for VG reason. The posters may change over the years, but the same observations remain.

Not that the HD 4000 is poor. In fact, for an integrated card, benchmarks show it to be reasonably capable. But dropping a discrete GPU option in the Mini, as existed in 2011, & not offering 1 GB VRAM is, IMO, a backward step. Latter is almost an industry standard for a lot of similar priced PCs, laptops included. Even if Apple charged a bit extra, they could have left us that option on a higher-end Mini.

Haswell chipsets will offer a significant leap forward. However, as much I like my Mini in many respects, Apple's future roadmap here is the main reason for me getting a mid-range, gaming PC.

They have the option on basing the higher end Mac Mini on the Macbook Pro because that's what they've always done since the switch to intel. Choosing to not add a dedicated GPU is simply a cost saving exercise. There's no way the price difference between a 2.5Ghz i5 with a 500Gb drive and a 2.3Ghz i7 with a 1Tb drive is as much as Apple charge, not having a faster GPU too is just ripping people off. That's until you consider how much power those systems have if you're not doing something to GPU intensive, then they're great little systems that easily slap the entry level Mac Pro for raw performance.

 

[gregorsamsa]

They have the option on basing the higher end Mac Mini on the Macbook Pro because that's what they've always done since the switch to intel. Choosing to not add a dedicated GPU is simply a cost saving exercise. There's no way the price difference between a 2.5Ghz i5 with a 500Gb drive and a 2.3Ghz i7 with a 1Tb drive is as much as Apple charge, not having a faster GPU too is just ripping people off. That's until you consider how much power those systems have if you're not doing something to GPU intensive, then they're great little systems that easily slap the entry level Mac Pro for raw performance.

Much agreed! However, as much as such a business plan, implemented across their product lines, may increase Apple's profit margins from many consumers, they'll also lose the custom of many others. That'll continue. I imagine that after some consideration a fair number have done as I have, deciding it's more cost-effective in the L/T to just buy PC hardware instead (naturally also getting decent warranty ) to sit alongside our Macs.

Had those extra GPU options for a non-Pro, headless Mac like the Mini been there at acceptable added cost, I'd have avoided getting a PC.

 

[comatory]

I've got a few MKV's at over 10G - 20G in size and my 2010 stutters - maybe its because I'm running a few apps, usually Mail at least and a FTP programme to download from my seed box.

I'm running 8G RAM and iStats, on iStats CPU and GPU usage goes berserk - its only a handful of files I have issues with and they play fine in my LG HTC via wifi.

Anyway, disappointed with the Mac Mini, would have updated now to the i7 quadcore if only it had a discrete GPU running 512 VRAM minimum - basically will not now change until Haswell arrives and still have about 14 months AppleCare on my Mini - a iT HDD internal would have helped though - even though I'm running 4 external HDD's presently as back-up/storage.

Im using Mac mini 2009, C2D, 2GB RAM, Snow Leopard and it plays 1080P MKV files fine using Plex. Sure it takes a bit to load but the playback is smooth.

Theres something wrong with your MM. Some process is probably running in background thats slowing it down. I had HP printer drivers that were checking for online updates nonstop, causing processor to go 50 percent all the time.

 

[comatory]

I don't understand why people still game on their PCs. In my opinion, playing on an Xbox or Playstation is so much more enjoyable.

If I had limited living space I would get a mini and a generic monitor that I could hook up to an Xbox. Boom! Gears of War and Call of Duty in all it's glory.

Back around 2002 I gamed heavily on a PC but once the Xbox 360 hit the market it was a no brainer to switch over to the console platform. I don't know, maybe I just don't get it.

I just bought X360 and definitely is the way to go when gaming. I mean I have pretty powerful Mac Pro but most of the titles I wanted to play need Windows. X360 is so cheap now that it still made more sense to buy the console (I bought it used with warranty + 6 games).
The price of dedicated hard drive for Windows + license would be roughly the same price.

 

[barkmonster]

Much agreed! However, as much as such a business plan, implemented across their product lines, may increase Apple's profit margins from many consumers, they'll also lose the custom of many others. That'll continue. I imagine that after some consideration a fair number have done as I have, deciding it's more cost-effective in the L/T to just buy PC hardware instead (naturally also getting decent warranty ) to sit alongside our Macs.

Had those extra GPU options for a non-Pro, headless Mac like the Mini been there at acceptable added cost, I'd have avoided getting a PC.

The tax of having to use Windows is too much for some people to get a PC instead. They literally don't hate themselves enough to do it

 

[Ice Dragon]

I was a longtime Windows user and decided I wanted to change it up and go for a Mac and do not regret it.

Getting back to graphics, I have to wonder how far the gap will be between discrete and integrated. I am very much looking forward to the Kepler refresh which I am guessing will be the 700 series starting from 740M and up.