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Why is the MP so expensive?
- Thread starter Loa
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Yeah, at least nanofrog has been saying that and he usually knows his stuff. Some earlier Mac Pros' mobos were made by Intel.
I didn't say article, I said "discussion". That might have given you the hint that it was on the podcast.
AFAIK Apple still does the design in house and Steve Jobs has to approve it down to the smallest detail. You might have heard of Jonathan Ives too.
If you lived in Europe you would know that Mercedes quality has declined markedly over the years and now are bested by such companies as Honda, Toyota and Skoda.
Evidence to support this assertion?
Evidence to support this assertion?
Well, you haven't really backed up your claims either. Now you specified that the Engadget thing is a podcast but didn't bother to link it...
I seem to recall you previously indicated that it was inside information from a human.
"Inside" or not, if it's from a podcast, it's public and can be linked.
They still do this for the portable devices (hint: acquisition of PA Semi). But they've gone to ODM sources for the computers.
Jonny Ives is an Industrial Designer = creates the packaging (enclosure that the electronics are housed inside). Not the circuit designs.
Keep in mind, that automobiles are not computers. Automobiles are still designed and manufactured by the company that owns them, not an ODM as is usually the case with consumer electronics (even cars made by one company for another, are usually controlled by that company, such as Opel making cars under the Saturn brand - both were owned by GM at the time).
But if they toss what Demming came up with (proper QA/QC systems throughout the product design and manufacturing process), they will be in the same situation we're seeing with the vast majority of consumer electronics; crap quality (worse than what you're complaining about with Mercedes - imagine a car that has an engine that self-destructs into metal filings in under 3 months
).Though most, if not all of consumer electronics come out of Asia, the geography isn't the problem. It's the changes in business culture (increase short term profits, no matter what gets sacrificed in the process = unchecked greed). Proper QA/QC was one of the first things to go as a result.
Every PCB contains something called an Electronic Serial Number Manufacturer ID Number (etched on an edge of the board somewhere if you look). These numbers are unique to a specific manufacturer (think of it like a fingerprint). This is done for safety and compliance reasons (know who to chase down if there's a problem, as the maker usually is not the brand name on the box anymore due to ODM).Evidence to support this assertion?
So all you need to do, is open your computer, find the ESN Manufacturer ID, and run a search on it.
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Regarding Mac Pro case design:
I wouldn't say the case is a bad case. It's certainly far better than the cases
of most consumer grade machines. How it compares to the cases of other
workstations is something I'd like to read more about.
As you may know, other workstations are made from a variety of materials.
Sometimes plastic is used for some or part of the case, but also metal cases
are common.
The Mac Pros have cases largely made out of anodized sheet aluminum
(likely an alloy). The design is clever in a way. If you look at the left side,
you can see how the handles and feet have been formed by bending the
sheet.
Quite how strong this design is could be questioned. The handles and feet
do seem to be weak points, as you can see in these threads:
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/993759/
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/595032/
The main area of weakness appears to be where the handles and feet meet
the removable right side panel of the Mac Pro. This kind of sheet aluminum
is not as strong as, for example, certain types of steel of a similar thickness,
and so will deform relatively easily if the machine is dropped when handled.
For this reason it is important to package the Mac Pros carefully when they
are moved any distance.
Regarding Mac Pro case cost:
How costly is the Mac Pro case to manufacture? That is hard to say.
The material costs likely aren't very high, but you'd need to know the
particular aluminum alloy used to make a good guess. And then there
is the cost of processing the raw material, which could quite possibly
exceed the cost of materials.
But we can say this: the Power Macs, which had very similar cases, sold
for much less even as recently as the second half of the last decade. For
example, the entry level Power Macs used to sell for $1499 direct from
Apple:
http://web.archive.org/web/20050203023200/http://www.apple.com/powermac/
So, then at least, it was possible to sell a desktop Mac with a case like
the one the Mac Pro has for much less money.
Regarding comparisons with iMacs:
At that time, in 2005, the entry level iMacs sold for $1299. So a multiplier
of 1.15: the entry level Power Macs were 15% more expensive than that.
Today, 6 years later, the entry level Mac Pro is $2499, a 67% increase in
price over its predecessor. The entry level iMac is now $1199, so it has
a price 8% lower than that iMac from 2005. And the iMac/Mac Pro
multiplier is 2.08.
That is, where the entry level Power Mac used to be 15% more expensive
than the entry level iMac, the equivalent figure now is 108%.
Actually I have to deal with either the RAF or sea containers.
I wouldn't say the case is a bad case. It's certainly far better than the cases
of most consumer grade machines. How it compares to the cases of other
workstations is something I'd like to read more about.
As you may know, other workstations are made from a variety of materials.
Sometimes plastic is used for some or part of the case, but also metal cases
are common.
The Mac Pros have cases largely made out of anodized sheet aluminum
(likely an alloy). The design is clever in a way. If you look at the left side,
you can see how the handles and feet have been formed by bending the
sheet.
Quite how strong this design is could be questioned. The handles and feet
do seem to be weak points, as you can see in these threads:
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/993759/
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/595032/
The main area of weakness appears to be where the handles and feet meet
the removable right side panel of the Mac Pro. This kind of sheet aluminum
is not as strong as, for example, certain types of steel of a similar thickness,
and so will deform relatively easily if the machine is dropped when handled.
For this reason it is important to package the Mac Pros carefully when they
are moved any distance.
Regarding Mac Pro case cost:
How costly is the Mac Pro case to manufacture? That is hard to say.
The material costs likely aren't very high, but you'd need to know the
particular aluminum alloy used to make a good guess. And then there
is the cost of processing the raw material, which could quite possibly
exceed the cost of materials.
But we can say this: the Power Macs, which had very similar cases, sold
for much less even as recently as the second half of the last decade. For
example, the entry level Power Macs used to sell for $1499 direct from
Apple:
http://web.archive.org/web/20050203023200/http://www.apple.com/powermac/
So, then at least, it was possible to sell a desktop Mac with a case like
the one the Mac Pro has for much less money.
Regarding comparisons with iMacs:
At that time, in 2005, the entry level iMacs sold for $1299. So a multiplier
of 1.15: the entry level Power Macs were 15% more expensive than that.
Today, 6 years later, the entry level Mac Pro is $2499, a 67% increase in
price over its predecessor. The entry level iMac is now $1199, so it has
a price 8% lower than that iMac from 2005. And the iMac/Mac Pro
multiplier is 2.08.
That is, where the entry level Power Mac used to be 15% more expensive
than the entry level iMac, the equivalent figure now is 108%.
Easy Peasy!
Engadget 204 about 1 hour 6 minutes into the podcast.
As to Mercedes being bested, JD Power survey 2011
Loads of Books written on Steve Jobs attention to detail and unless you have been hiding in a cave in asia for the last 20 years you would have heard of Jonathan Ive.
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You were talking before about manufacturing quality. The survey,
as far as I can tell (the wording in the article is woolly), concerns
overall customer satisfaction. It doesn't measure build quality per se.
Added to which: it's subjective. Finally, the people whose opinions
were sought will not all have used cars by the other manufacturers.
That's a huge flaw in the survey. For example, it might be that the
people who buy a Mercedes tend to be more picky in general and
would award lower marks to whatever product they happened to own.
I'll give it a listen later.
Infrared is right. It's a Customer Satisfaction Survey, not a Vehicle Reliability Study by make and/or model (build quality).
So those numbers may not coincide with what you're trying to convey.
To give you an idea in the electronics industry, they kept failure rates in the low single digits (i.e. 1 - 2 % on avg., and 5% on the outside) in the past when they were still using a proper QA/QC methodology. Now however, you're likely to see between 13 - 33% for consumer electronics.
Quite a difference, and is the direct result of a very poor QA/QC methodology (design through manufacturing).Could you imagine a Honda with a 33% failure rate off of the lot!?!?!? That would make major news outlets just as the recent issues with Toyota's.
But you don't hear much of anything for consumer electronics (it's out there, but you have to dig). Never saw a blip on the evening news on Seagate's 7200.11 series.
I know quite a bit about Jobs. But his focus has historically been with whatever has been at the center of Apple's attention, and that's the iDevices, not the MP.
As per Ives, I know who he is as well. Give Wiki's page on Industrial Design a read. It's not circuit design.
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Let's go to the Consumers' Association (Which?) for reliability:
Mercedes scored 11th behind Toyota, Hyundai, Honda and Mazda.
Most would have.
Interesting to note. The Consumers' Association also surveys Computer Satisfaction
Apple scores between 94% and 95% while the OEMs struggle to hit 50%. Mac Users are better paid, better educated and pay more for their computers which would lead them to expect more from a computer. Almost all of us have loads of experience on OEM Windows boxes, which leads us to become MacUsers.
I purchased about 15 seagate 2.5 inch hdds 500 gb 7200 rpm momentus 7200.4 I think. first built in dec 08 dates were from dec 08 to apr 09
10 failed out of 15. 5 of the rma's failed. so when all was said and done 30 hdds in all 15 bad in under a year. Cost me a lot of money to replace them. I was modding minis on ebay. Lots of angry customers. I no longer buy seagate 2.5 inch hdds. More due to the rma procedure then anything else.
There is a whole thread on this actually. https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1097291/
It even includes an opinion from the head of Corsair case design about the Mac Pro case:
Cos it's the only REAL desktop apple ever makes
the mac mini is a macbook in a box, and the imac is a huge laptop with a desk stand and a screen mounted in front of it
it has
-real desktop parts [read below]
-desktop motherboard (ability to change GPU, and CPU)
-the one with a REAL desktop RAM, CPU and GPU
-a desktop grade cooling
but
-it's too pricey
-low end GPU (herp they should include a 6870 as standard and give a option to upgrade to various GPU)
-no SLI or CrossFireX capablities
-no liquid cooling
-the casing is not important, even a $90 casing can handle more than what apple put inside the MP
-no option to go for the cheaper core i series
What apple have to do to make it something worth buying
-Introduce a version with intel core 2xxx-K processors
+with thunderbolt, USB 3.0, HDMI
+custom kext and drivers for all GPU
+starting price of 1400$
-Motherboard BIOS [OC]
-More focused on GAMING
then it would be a Mac "Pro"
the mac mini is a macbook in a box, and the imac is a huge laptop with a desk stand and a screen mounted in front of it
it has
-real desktop parts [read below]
-desktop motherboard (ability to change GPU, and CPU)
-the one with a REAL desktop RAM, CPU and GPU
-a desktop grade cooling
but
-it's too pricey
-low end GPU (herp they should include a 6870 as standard and give a option to upgrade to various GPU)
-no SLI or CrossFireX capablities
-no liquid cooling
-the casing is not important, even a $90 casing can handle more than what apple put inside the MP
-no option to go for the cheaper core i series
What apple have to do to make it something worth buying
-Introduce a version with intel core 2xxx-K processors
+with thunderbolt, USB 3.0, HDMI
+custom kext and drivers for all GPU
+starting price of 1400$
-Motherboard BIOS [OC]
-More focused on GAMING
then it would be a Mac "Pro"
Where did that Corsair guy's info come from? I'm not doubting the reliability but would still like to read the original article (so I can use it in the future
).
Gaming is not a "Pro" feature. Most of the rest isn't apple. Really, BIOS? Gimme a break.
Where did that Corsair guy's info come from? I'm not doubting the reliability but would still like to read the original article (so I can use it in the future
See post #5 for that quote.
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1586070
Post #20 is also interesting:
(I applied the bold since it directly related to the subject of this entire thread.)
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Where did that Corsair guy's info come from? I'm not doubting the reliability but would still like to read the original article (so I can use it in the future
He (Redbeard) posted it on [H]ard|Forum. He's the lead case designer, or maybe only one I don't recall. He does know what he's talking about though.
Apple is free to do whatever it wants to do. However, they have lost me forever with these prices. I will NOT pay $3,000 for a desktop- not gonna happen. I will however, be happy to get a used one for far less from a third party or start tinkering with a Hackintosh. Buying new simply no longer makes good economic sense.
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Thanks to both of you. I figured that it's legit because you are usually pretty skeptical about rumors and things but your posts in that thread indicated that the quote was real and made by the appropriate person.
BIOS is for Overclocking, CPU, RAM, FSB, and many more
and for a multi billion dollar company they should make a gaming machine in addition of working machine