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IJ Reilly

macrumors P6
Jul 16, 2002
17,909
1,496
Palookaville
The dominance of the IBM-PC hardware platform is essentially an historical accident, which benefited Microsoft far more than it ever did IBM. The hardware design was almost entirely generic, but IBM included a proprietary ROM-BIOS which they assumed would enough to protect their investment in the PC and relived any concerns they might have had about granting Microsoft the rights to sell DOS to other PC manufacturers (of where there were none at the time). Compaq was the first to figure out how to clone the BIOS without violating IBM's copyrights. It was all over for IBM -- now anybody could sell an "IBM compatible" PC and buy their OS from directly from Microsoft. IBM struggled for years to find a way back into the driver's seat but never came close. All of this happened before the Mac was even released, btw.
 

MacFanBoyIIe

macrumors 6502
Feb 22, 2008
320
0
I agree the question is flawed. The 3 of us have all made good points, but each of our points are based on how we individually interpreted the question.

I wonder if the OP'er would be so kind as to clarify the question.
 

MacFanBoyIIe

macrumors 6502
Feb 22, 2008
320
0
...Compaq was the first to figure out how to clone the BIOS without violating IBM's copyrights. It was all over for IBM -- now anybody could sell an "IBM compatible" PC and buy their OS from directly from Microsoft.

So, for those of us who don't want to be restricted to getting our hardware from Apple but would still like to run OS X, how can we legally be more like Compaq? And NO, I'm not talking about hackintosh, as that is against forum policy. I'm talking about finding a LEGAL way to run OSX on another company's (or home-brewed) hardware. There's gotta be a loop-hole there somewhere in the EULA or copyright.
 

bartelby

macrumors Core
Jun 16, 2004
19,795
34
I'm talking about finding a LEGAL way to run OSX on another company's (or home-brewed) hardware. There's gotta be a loop-hole there somewhere in the EULA or copyright.

Do you not think the Apple legal dept. have got it totally covered?
If not, I'm sure someone would be exploiting it by now.
 

kuwisdelu

macrumors 65816
Jan 13, 2008
1,323
2
So, for those of us who don't want to be restricted to getting our hardware from Apple but would still like to run OS X, how can we legally be more like Compaq? And NO, I'm not talking about hackintosh, as that is against forum policy. I'm talking about finding a LEGAL way to run OSX on another company's (or home-brewed) hardware. There's gotta be a loop-hole there somewhere in the EULA or copyright.

There isn't one. There won't be one. If Apple allowed people to legally run OS X on systems outside of their control, then any problems with stability/drivers/etc. on those systems would become a PR nightmare for them, even if it's not technically their fault.

As arn pointed out a while back, I don't think it's strictly against forum policy to discuss breaking EULAs, but hackintosh discussions often get closed down because they often are also associated with links to steal/pirate OS X, which is against forum rules.

If you really want to make a hackintosh, though, I don't think Apple will come after you. Just make sure you buy a legal version of OS X. Apple doesn't mind hackintoshes too much, I think, because those who make them often end up buying a real Mac sooner or later, simply because the real thing is usually better. Feel free to try, though, I say.
 

IJ Reilly

macrumors P6
Jul 16, 2002
17,909
1,496
Palookaville
So, for those of us who don't want to be restricted to getting our hardware from Apple but would still like to run OS X, how can we legally be more like Compaq? And NO, I'm not talking about hackintosh, as that is against forum policy. I'm talking about finding a LEGAL way to run OSX on another company's (or home-brewed) hardware. There's gotta be a loop-hole there somewhere in the EULA or copyright.

Apparently not. Apple was smarter about how to protect their hardware architecture from the very start. They even went a step further (on the early Macs anyway) of burning many of the low-level OS routines onto copyrighted ROMs. I don't know if Apple learned from IBM's mistakes, but they certainly did not make them.
 

chagla

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Mar 21, 2008
797
1,727
thank you for contributing everyone. as i'm fairly young, i don't know much about computing history, especially pre-Windows 98 period. so learned bits of info i didn't know. :)

okay. this really isnt' another WINDOWS vs MAC thread. i did in fact mention on the first post PCs brigade as every other OS's (linux, windows etc) and MAC as just mac os. perhaps i failed to clarify, i mostly wanted to be a hardware focused comparison. but then operating systems do come in the picture.
just wondering why people buy non-apple hardware (dell, hp and the likes) instead of apple? is it price? what if apple slashed prices to compete with dell, hps? would people buy apples then? Would there be a significant rise in mac users worldwide? is it the operating system or is it the hardware? what is the reason why choose a particular system?

it is easy to answer for mac because if I want to use mac, i MUST buy an apple hardware. i don't know anybody who buys a mac to run Windows (or linux).

keep up the debate.
 

kuwisdelu

macrumors 65816
Jan 13, 2008
1,323
2
okay. this really isnt' another WINDOWS vs MAC thread. i did in fact mention on the first post PCs brigade as every other OS's (linux, windows etc) and MAC as just mac os. perhaps i failed to clarify, i mostly wanted to be a hardware focused comparison. but then operating systems do come in the picture.

just wondering why people buy non-apple hardware (dell, hp and the likes) instead of apple? is it price? what if apple slashed prices to compete with dell, hps? would people buy apples then? Would there be a significant rise in mac users worldwide? is it the operating system or is it the hardware? what is the reason why choose a particular system?

People buy non-Apple hardware for a large variety of reasons. One reason is, like zap said, because if you build your own computer, you get much more control over what components you put in it, giving you many more customization options while often being cheaper. Lots of people can't afford non-Apple hardware, so they don't have any other choice than to buy cheap Dell, HP, etc., computers for <$500 and so on. The biggest reason, IMO, is that people simply buy what they're used to. Most people are used to Windows (another, it usually comes down to OS whether you want it to or not) and so they buy a computer pre-loaded with Windows from a manufacturer with which they're familiar like Dell or HP. If you want to talk about Linux users...well, first of all, they make up an even smaller portion of the OS marketshare than Mac OS X, so their impact on hardware purchases is pretty minimal. I'd say most Linux users are pretty concerned about customization and freedom (which is part of why they love Linux--if it weren't for such things, they'd have little reason to dislike OS X) and so they are often people who build their own computers. Other Linux users usually install it on an Windows PC after getting tired of Windows...though some manufacturers are beginning to make BTO Linux-installed PC's.

Apple doesn't need to slash prices to compete with Dell and HP. The low-end computing market just isn't where they're competing. And besides, Apple is really more about OS X. It's a great operating system, and when you talk about Macs--hardware or not--it's always going to come back to OS X. Lots of people buy Macs these days wanting to try out OS X, but also knowing that with Bootcamp they can use Windows as well. If you pop into the "Windows on Mac" forum, you'll see there are many people that say "I thought I'd spend most of my time in Windows...but I love OS X and hardly ever use Windows anymore! How do I make my Windows partition smaller so it isn't taking up so much space?" In the end, it's really about OS X, which is kind of unintuitive, because Apple sells OS X so cheap that it barely makes any profit on its own operating system. But it doesn't need to. Because OS X is such an important part of a Mac, and because it can only be run on a Mac, Apple uses OS X to sell its hardware, which is where it really makes its profits. OS X is what sells Macs. We're just lucky that they happen to be great hardware, too.

Apple's business model in general is just like this: use software to sell the hardware. It's the same with iTunes for the iPod and the App store for the iPhone. Apple doesn't make any money off iTunes or its store, but offers it as a great service for those who buy iPods, which is where the money comes from. Apple won't make money off the App store for the iPhone, but it'll make a killing on the iPhone. (Despite all the naysayers about the 30%/70% split, this kind of thing is pretty normal, and Apple's cut will go to maintaining the app store; it'll be a tiny fraction compared to the money it makes from the iPhone.)

All in all, I think asking why people do or do not buy Apple hardware compared with other companies like Dell or HP is pretty silly if you don't start talking about software. That's really what's important when it comes to Apple. The hardware-software integration is at the very core of Apple's business model and it's what's made them so successful. When Apple was failing as a company in the 90s and brought Steve Jobs back, many inside the company wanted to license the Mac OS to other computer makers like Windows, thinking that was the only way to save the business. But it was a wise choice not to do this. Steve Jobs created Apple with the tight integration between software and hardware in mind, and that's the way it will always be (as long as Jobs is at the helm). It's what's best for the business, and in many ways, it's very often what's best for the end users. If you don't talk about software, then asking why anyone buys Apple's hardware over HP's is no different than asking why anyone buys Dell's computers over Sony's, or Sony's over Toshiba's.
 

Eraserhead

macrumors G4
Nov 3, 2005
10,434
12,250
UK
The dominance of the IBM-PC hardware platform is essentially an historical accident, which benefited Microsoft far more than it ever did IBM. The hardware design was almost entirely generic, but IBM included a proprietary ROM-BIOS which they assumed would enough to protect their investment in the PC and relived any concerns they might have had about granting Microsoft the rights to sell DOS to other PC manufacturers (of where there were none at the time). Compaq was the first to figure out how to clone the BIOS without violating IBM's copyrights. It was all over for IBM -- now anybody could sell an "IBM compatible" PC and buy their OS from directly from Microsoft. IBM struggled for years to find a way back into the driver's seat but never came close. All of this happened before the Mac was even released, btw.

That before that IBM was the computer company, and their competitors in the PC business were all startups didn't hurt the IBM PC either.
 

IJ Reilly

macrumors P6
Jul 16, 2002
17,909
1,496
Palookaville
That before that IBM was the computer company, and their competitors in the PC business were all startups didn't hurt the IBM PC either.

Right. The old maxim was "nobody ever got fired for buying IBM," which then transferred to the PC clones. Ironically, the IBM-PC was a defensive measure for the company. Management was never really convinced that desktop computing was real -- they were oriented towards the big iron. But Apple's success with the Apple II and Commodore with the PET persuaded IBM that this market could not be entirely ignored. The entire project was sort of an afterthought, which is why they selected generic hardware and hired an outside company to produce the OS. It's certainly interesting to consider how popular the IBM-PC would have become had IBM retained control of the platform. Probably not very, if only because the company was only half-heartedly committed to desktop computing, and other companies were better positioned to compete in this market.
 
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