Why spend $2,500+ for only in 5 years of OS support?

[svenmany]

My 2006 Acer laptop is closing to be 20 years old laptop, it still runs Linux just fine. It has 2GB DDR and 120GB original IDE hard drive.

We need company to support old platform much longer than 5 years or 10 years. A decade old laptop is still capable to do most of basic computer things. I am typing this on a 2011 MacBook Pro which I got for like 100 dollars and using Monterey Patcher.

I would say, Microsoft does good job support Windows for long period of time, thus Windows PC will have much longer software support than Mac would. The very fact that my old ThinkPad T430s with Intel Haswell Processor still receiving Windows 10 updates and will continue to be supported until 2025 is great. Where same period of Macs are stuck with Catalina with no hope for future software update is sad. You bet if Apple support Macs longer people will keep their Mac longer and thus less computer goes to landfill.

I am being swayed by these arguments. I realize some of my opinions are based on just what I've come to expect from Apple and have come to consider reasonable.

My 2006 Acer laptop is closing to be 20 years old laptop, it still runs Linux just fine. It has 2GB DDR and 120GB original IDE hard drive.

Can you confirm that it's running completely up to date software and that you don't have any significant and well-known security vulnerabilities? What browser and version are you running? Do all websites you visit work at least as well as they do on a new Mac?

I would say, Microsoft does good job support Windows for long period of time, thus Windows PC will have much longer software support than Mac would.

But, they triggered outrage by not supporting many computers on Windows 11. Maybe Microsoft is much more generous than Apple with regards to updates, but updates to Windows 10 are analogous to receiving updates to older MacOS versions, which people do.

For me, the problem with these arguments is that no one has made clear what kind of updates from Apple they expect. Do they just want Apple to make sure the computers are patched for security vulnerabilities? Or do they expect these 20 year old computers to be able to support the new features that Apple adds to their OS?

 

[Aoligei]

I am being swayed by these arguments. I realize some of my opinions are based on just what I've come to expect from Apple and have come to consider reasonable.



Can you confirm that it's running completely up to date software and that you don't have any significant and well-known security vulnerabilities? What browser and version are you running? Do all websites you visit work at least as well as they do on a new Mac?

Well, it is 32-bit only processor and I am running latest Linux Mint that support 32-bit processors.

it is running the latest FireFox. Website loads correctly, even though it is slow by today’s standard. It is close to 20 years old PC now, even it does web browsing is great l.

For security stand point, I don’t really think there is a perfect OS that has perfect security. So it is always evolving.

But, they triggered outrage by not supporting many computers on Windows 11. Maybe Microsoft is much more generous than Apple with regards to updates, but updates to Windows 10 are analogous to receiving updates to older MacOS versions, which people do.

For me, the problem with these arguments is that no one has made clear what kind of updates from Apple they expect. Do they just want Apple to make sure the computers are patched for security vulnerabilities? Or do they expect these 20 year old computers to be able to support the new features that Apple adds to their OS?

While it is officially not supported, Windows 11 can be installed in computer as old as Intel Core 2 Duo. And it is run just as well as Windows 10. Update is not issue.

I am expecting Apple to support their software longer by providing essentially updates. Apples attitude toward old OS makes old OS completely unusable. I don’t think it is unreasonable to think MacBook Pro that were purchased in 2012, which clearly has the power to run MacOS Monetery being abandoned so early. I think Apple should at least provide security updates for older OSes. Or just don’t push MacOS release this frequently.

I don’t see what is wrong with pushing new OS every 2-3 years.

 

[ondioline]

My 2006 Acer laptop is closing to be 20 years old laptop, it still runs Linux just fine. It has 2GB DDR and 120GB original IDE hard drive.

Your 2006 Acer laptop didn’t come with Linux. This is moving the goal posts. You can run Linux on most PPC and x86 Macs.

 

[svenmany]

I am expecting Apple to support their software longer by providing essentially updates. Apples attitude toward old OS makes old OS completely unusable. I don’t think it is unreasonable to think MacBook Pro that were purchased in 2012, which clearly has the power to run MacOS Monetery being abandoned so early. I think Apple should at least provide security updates for older OSes. Or just don’t push MacOS release this frequently.

Well, I have no example from 2012, but my 2013 laptop just received an update from Apple. It's running Big Sur. I also have a 12 year old iMac comfortably running High Sierra and the latest Firefox. It's a very capable machine for what it's being used for. But, I do acknowledge that Apple is not bearing any of the responsibility in keeping it running smoothly. And, I expect it would not run very smoothly if I were to subject it to any more advanced use cases.

I don’t see what is wrong with pushing new OS every 2-3 years.

I think Apple just moved to a different naming approach. What they previously would have labelled as a new point release, they now make it a new major release with a new name.

What you've got me thinking is that this approach tends to give them cover to abandon old hardware sooner. It's easy to say to the public that certain old computers which could run Monterey will not be able to run Ventura. It would be much less acceptable to the public to be told that a computer that could run MacOS 12.4 won't be able to run 12.5.

Thanks OP for this thread. You've really got me reevaluating.

 

[svenmany]

Your 2006 Acer laptop didn’t come with Linux. This is moving the goal posts. You can run Linux on most PPC and x86 Macs.

But, what do you think about holding Apple to the same standards that we hold the Linux and open source community to? You're making the case that the Apple hardware lasts because you can run Linux on it. But, this thread is mostly about Apple's software responsibilities.

 

[Aoligei]

Well, I have no example from 2012, but my 2013 laptop just received an update from Apple. It's running Big Sur. I also have a 12 year old iMac comfortably running High Sierra and the latest Firefox. It's a very capable machine for what it's being used for. But, I do acknowledge that Apple is not bearing any of the responsibility in keeping it running smoothly. And, I expect it would not run very smoothly if I were to subject it to any more advanced use cases.

I got bunch of old unibody MacBook Pro for cheap. LOL, mostly for fine. Those are veery capable machine and you can upgrade to max for cheap. 8GB RAM plus an cheap ass SSD, you have a very capable machine.

Take 2009 MacBook Pro for example, it can run Catalina without issue, but Apple let it cold to El Captain. Try to run anything on El Captain is painful at best.

I am making point is that Apple left those laptop cold way to soon and it is sad to see. Most Mac user will rather throw it into trash, and this is the the saddest part.

I think Apple just moved to a different naming approach. What they previously would have labelled as a new point release, they now make it a new major release with a new name.

What you've got me thinking is that this approach tends to give them cover to abandon old hardware sooner. It's easy to say to the public that certain old computers which could run Monterey will not be able to run Ventura. It would be much less acceptable to the public to be told that a computer that could run MacOS 12.4 won't be able to run 12.5.

Thanks OP for this thread. You've really got me reevaluating.

The problem is going to be very different from now on. With everything being soldered on and everything being encrypted plus iCloud lock, making recycling and reused those MacBook down the line very difficult if impossible.

Think about 6 years down the line, where M1 Mac are no longer relevant and those machine being thrown away, what is the chances for these machine find second life? By then you have no upgradable path, you stuck at what you have. Who knows if these machine will ever be useful again.

 

[svenmany]

I got bunch of old unibody MacBook Pro for cheap. LOL, mostly for fine. Those are veery capable machine and you can upgrade to max for cheap. 8GB RAM plus an cheap ass SSD, you have a very capable machine.

Take 2009 MacBook Pro for example, it can run Catalina without issue, but Apple let it cold to El Captain. Try to run anything on El Captain is painful at best.

I am making point is that Apple left those laptop cold way to soon and it is sad to see. Most Mac user will rather throw it into trash, and this is the the saddest part.



The problem is going to be very different from now on. With everything being soldered on and everything being encrypted plus iCloud lock, making recycling and reused those MacBook down the line very difficult if impossible.

Think about 6 years down the line, where M1 Mac are no longer relevant and those machine being thrown away, what is the chances for these machine find second life? By then you have no upgradable path, you stuck at what you have. Who knows if these machine will ever be useful again.

This thread has convinced me that Apple has a social responsibility to do way better. If your 2009 MacBook Pro installed Catalina easily and ran without issue, then Apple should have facilitated that so that the average user could have benefited. If there were wrinkles, they should have made some effort to iron them out. But, there is little profit motive; that's the tragedy of capitalism.

 

[ondioline]

You're making the case that the Apple hardware lasts because you can run Linux on it.

Other people are making that argument for non-Apple hardware. Nice reading comprehension guy

 

[svenmany]

Other people are making that argument for non-Apple hardware. Nice reading comprehension guy

Pretty insulting comment. I try to read very carefully and respond respectfully. I won't bother with you.

 

[davidg4781]

The same thing happened when Apple switched from PowerPC to Intel. The switch started in 2006 and I think PPCs were still sold through 2007. OS X Snow Leopard came out in 2009 and dropped PPC support.

 

[BigMcGuire]

I've tried to like and run linux. As someone who can program and has worked in IT most of their life I consider myself to be fairly technical. Still, I've not been able to call a Linux distro a home and yes I've tried. Mac OS or even Windows is just so much easier for me to use.

I think this will change the older I get. I know a lot of great engineers/people smarter than me who find all their personal computing needs now by going around looking for old computers at garage sales, fixing them up, and using them as their primary computer for years.

Right now, I need Parallels with the ability to run VS 2022. I want an OS that allows me to run 3-4 browsers with 20-30 tabs each without having problems. I want all of my data in one package (Books, photos, 200GB of personal data) accessible from any device. I want to be able to play a few games with ease. (Age of Empires HD, World of Warcraft, Starcraft II, etc). I want to be able to use a 4k monitor. I need to run WebEx, Teams, and various other collaboration tools (which are extremely bloated) smoothly.

I don't see how any of this is doable on a Windows 95 machine that I used growing up (Pentium II 200Mhz with, yes, a 200mb C:\ partition (Windows 95)). I don't know how forcing a company to maintain that hardware is in anyone's benefit? Using a $800 MBA today is FAR more pleasant than using a Windows 95 PC from the 90s with a CRT.

Less waste is nice. I'll tell you one thing, one thing that has REALLY attracted me to Apple? I bought a 2015 MBA for $750 from Best Buy and sold it for 50% of that back to Apple after 3 years of very heavy use. I haven't been able to do this with my Dell laptops. Going from a Dell Latitude D830 to a 11' MBA was life changing. lol. Every Mac I've had since 2011 I've been able to sell, give away, and they've been used for a long time.

I agree with the other posters here, just because OS updates stop doesn't mean security updates will and doesn't mean the laptop stops working. I can't tell you how many people I know who are still using early 201X MBPs at universities or even personally (I had a family member using a 2013 MBP base model (I think) up until a few weeks ago).

 

[davidg4781]

I want an OS that allows me to run 3-4 browsers with 20-30 tabs each without having problems.

I'm curious... why is it needed to have so many browsers and tabs open at once? Maybe I'm missing something but, on my worst days, I maybe have at the most 10.

It usually goes like this... Let me check MR to see what I should do with a cracked Apple Watch Screen. How much does Apple charge to repair? How much is a used on on eBay? How about Amazon? Should I get a case for the Apple Watch? Let me check Facebook. When is the iPhone/AW event usually? Let me check Wiki.

 

[BigMcGuire]

I'm curious... why is it needed to have so many browsers and tabs open at once? Maybe I'm missing something but, on my worst days, I maybe have at the most 10.

It usually goes like this... Let me check MR to see what I should do with a cracked Apple Watch Screen. How much does Apple charge to repair? How much is a used on on eBay? How about Amazon? Should I get a case for the Apple Watch? Let me check Facebook. When is the iPhone/AW event usually? Let me check Wiki.

Work. Jira with tons of tabs opened. Then different browsers for different work o365 accounts and emails. Hehe.

Personal browsing - yes completely agree. Lucky to have more than 6 tabs.

 

[Apple_Robert]

After check the supported Macs on Ventura, it only support MacBook Pros (2017 and newer), so if you have a 6 year old Macbook Pro, Apple fools you, blocking that you install Ventura.

So! I'm planning replace my great macbook pro 15 late 2013 (Big Sur, last supported OS) 9 years machine (around 7 years of OS installs) to a new MacbookPro for $2500+, but based on Ventura means that Apple will only give me 5 years to get the lasted OS's.

It seems Apple everyday short the time of support the latest OS to force people to buy new computers.

I bet the MBP can works for many more years than just five, but without getting the latest OS's, what's the point?

Yes, yes... I know Apple possibly will continue give security updates on the future old OS, but come on! I want the latest thing.

You want the latest and greatest OS but, you seem to expect Apple to make the latest OS available to you as long as you think they should. Do you work for free? If you owned a business and a customer brought back a computer after 5 years of use and expected you to wipe the drive and install the latest OS for free, even though said person only paid for 1 year of manufacturer support, would spend your time working for free to appease that person?

Your wants and expectations need some serious reality adjustments.

 

[Cide]

I am being swayed by these arguments. I realize some of my opinions are based on just what I've come to expect from Apple and have come to consider reasonable.



Can you confirm that it's running completely up to date software and that you don't have any significant and well-known security vulnerabilities? What browser and version are you running? Do all websites you visit work at least as well as they do on a new Mac?



But, they triggered outrage by not supporting many computers on Windows 11. Maybe Microsoft is much more generous than Apple with regards to updates, but updates to Windows 10 are analogous to receiving updates to older MacOS versions, which people do.

For me, the problem with these arguments is that no one has made clear what kind of updates from Apple they expect. Do they just want Apple to make sure the computers are patched for security vulnerabilities? Or do they expect these 20 year old computers to be able to support the new features that Apple adds to their OS?

I am happy to hear you are being swayed somewhat,

Microsoft doesn't know what they are doing right now. They had it right with the "Windows 10 will be the last version of windows" and continue to be updated model, with major OS patches given each year or so. It was surprising to me that they have a Windows 10 End of Life, the way that its built, is for big OS updates to be distributed via Windows Updates very easily, ending support in what seems like tomorrow. (2025 approaches sooner than we think, like it or not.)

But you are right their Windows 11 release was poorly thought out, So will be windows 12. I give up on Microsoft, at least with Apple you have a better core OS foundation, with better overall security and stability, and the same overall software support, or better, than windows alternatives. And the general usability of OSX being better, and more consistent, makes for a better user experience.

Hopefully the industry goes into a more long-term/survival mode with these things, because for example, a 2022 MacBook Air M2 should last a a decade (or two) before any flaws in hardware show up or the SSD gives out. And even then, that part is replaceable, so the computer could last quite sometime provided it is not spilled/damaged/lost or stolen.

I feel like the most recent versions of MacOS (though I have not yet used them, so I say this cautiously) have been rushed, from releases after Catalina and to current. Though this has a lot to do with Apple Silicone, I fear the good years of MacOS are behind us now, though will continue to run for another 10 years+ if we're lucky, without resorting to unofficial patching or using Linux on our Apple hardware. I just feel the good days of cross compatibility with Intel being the monopoly for desktop and mobile OS's are behind us. Oh well. The past 10-20 years of computing advancements have been great, software is what has been falling behind and lagging in terms of optimization and implementation.

 

[Cide]

But, what do you think about holding Apple to the same standards that we hold the Linux and open source community to? You're making the case that the Apple hardware lasts because you can run Linux on it. But, this thread is mostly about Apple's software responsibilities.

Apple is using the same open source software, which they've greatly enhanced over the years, in terms of contributing code, features, and stability to some of the things they've used under their hood of MacOS. To expect them to adhere to open source community standards is a dream but, not far from reality if they were to choose to do it, it wouldn't cost them much.

I would like if Older Macs were supported for Longer under their aggressive OS release schedule, or they should in the future slow down their release cycle.

Longer terms support leads to better code, better software and better overall media across the industry. We as consumers should want technology from this day and age to last well into the future, and people should be used to making things cross compatible. This goes for Apple Silicon as well as Intel hardware, which can be recycled and reused over and over again without resorting to the landfill.

 

[Cide]

I got bunch of old unibody MacBook Pro for cheap. LOL, mostly for fine. Those are veery capable machine and you can upgrade to max for cheap. 8GB RAM plus an cheap ass SSD, you have a very capable machine.

Take 2009 MacBook Pro for example, it can run Catalina without issue, but Apple let it cold to El Captain. Try to run anything on El Captain is painful at best.

I am making point is that Apple left those laptop cold way to soon and it is sad to see. Most Mac user will rather throw it into trash, and this is the the saddest part.



The problem is going to be very different from now on. With everything being soldered on and everything being encrypted plus iCloud lock, making recycling and reused those MacBook down the line very difficult if impossible.

Think about 6 years down the line, where M1 Mac are no longer relevant and those machine being thrown away, what is the chances for these machine find second life? By then you have no upgradable path, you stuck at what you have. Who knows if these machine will ever be useful again.

Hopefully the right-to-repair initiatives will make it so that at least the SSDs remain replaceable/NVMe standardized, so that the most often weak point, the SSD, remains replaceable far into the future; and thus the computer as a whole. Parts like LCD, Keyboard, Trackpad, and Battery should always be replaceable but failures remain low in those regards, for a well-taken care of Laptop.

It is sad but soon Catalina will be like El Captain, I hope not, but I feel its days are numbered. When I am using Catalina versus Mojave I just feel so naked, Limited software support, comparatively to what's available on Mojave (Even down to 32-bit games in Steam using the Microsoft Xbox 360 Wireless USB Controller.) Luckily Logic 1.6.x is very stable on Catalina, at least.

 

[Cide]

I've tried to like and run linux. As someone who can program and has worked in IT most of their life I consider myself to be fairly technical. Still, I've not been able to call a Linux distro a home and yes I've tried. Mac OS or even Windows is just so much easier for me to use.

I think this will change the older I get. I know a lot of great engineers/people smarter than me who find all their personal computing needs now by going around looking for old computers at garage sales, fixing them up, and using them as their primary computer for years.

Right now, I need Parallels with the ability to run VS 2022. I want an OS that allows me to run 3-4 browsers with 20-30 tabs each without having problems. I want all of my data in one package (Books, photos, 200GB of personal data) accessible from any device. I want to be able to play a few games with ease. (Age of Empires HD, World of Warcraft, Starcraft II, etc). I want to be able to use a 4k monitor. I need to run WebEx, Teams, and various other collaboration tools (which are extremely bloated) smoothly.

I don't see how any of this is doable on a Windows 95 machine that I used growing up (Pentium II 200Mhz with, yes, a 200mb C:\ partition (Windows 95)). I don't know how forcing a company to maintain that hardware is in anyone's benefit? Using a $800 MBA today is FAR more pleasant than using a Windows 95 PC from the 90s with a CRT.

Less waste is nice. I'll tell you one thing, one thing that has REALLY attracted me to Apple? I bought a 2015 MBA for $750 from Best Buy and sold it for 50% of that back to Apple after 3 years of very heavy use. I haven't been able to do this with my Dell laptops. Going from a Dell Latitude D830 to a 11' MBA was life changing. lol. Every Mac I've had since 2011 I've been able to sell, give away, and they've been used for a long time.

I agree with the other posters here, just because OS updates stop doesn't mean security updates will and doesn't mean the laptop stops working. I can't tell you how many people I know who are still using early 201X MBPs at universities or even personally (I had a family member using a 2013 MBP base model (I think) up until a few weeks ago).

I liked your post, except for the part about CRT monitors.

Don't you remember how crystal clear a high-quality CRT monitor was for background wallpapers such as those available from Digitalblasphemy.com back in the day? (The blue mushroom wallpaper comes to mind.)

I miss that, LCD are so processed and pixelated sometimes, I have problems matching what I used to have even with 15" Retina display, though it comes close to what we had.

Also, Nobody had a 200MB C: Partition, That is bonkers low. Maybe 2000MB

Less waste is nice, and the resell value of Mac hardware has been great, Especially right now there has never been a better time to become an Intel Mac user as the second-hand prices or even new/refurb prices are so attractive, especially in time of eternal inflation.

 

[Cide]

I'm curious... why is it needed to have so many browsers and tabs open at once? Maybe I'm missing something but, on my worst days, I maybe have at the most 10.

It usually goes like this... Let me check MR to see what I should do with a cracked Apple Watch Screen. How much does Apple charge to repair? How much is a used on on eBay? How about Amazon? Should I get a case for the Apple Watch? Let me check Facebook. When is the iPhone/AW event usually? Let me check Wiki.

I used to have 100's of tabs open, across Firefox/Chrome/Safari.
Bad habits though, And I've gotten used to just saving big open tab sessions like that and realizing I didn't need 95% of what I had opened, Usually.

Doing long research projects or seminars though, sometimes you'll have tabs that lead to tabs and you'll want to absorb every unique perspective on the subject at hand, and that level of detail work is intense and results in hundreds of opened tabs at a time. Sometimes I crash my machine to a halt from doing this long term. Webbrowsers are heavy duty IO/highly unoptimized when run to a halt like this.

 

[BigMcGuire]

I liked your post, except for the part about CRT monitors.

Don't you remember how crystal clear a high-quality CRT monitor was for background wallpapers such as those available from Digitalblasphemy.com back in the day? (The blue mushroom wallpaper comes to mind.)

I miss that, LCD are so processed and pixelated sometimes, I have problems matching what I used to have even with 15" Retina display, though it comes close to what we had.

Also, Nobody had a 200MB C: Partition, That is bonkers low. Maybe 2000MB

Less waste is nice, and the resell value of Mac hardware has been great, Especially right now there has never been a better time to become an Intel Mac user as the second-hand prices or even new/refurb prices are so attractive, especially in time of eternal inflation.

I had some really crappy CRTs growing up I think. But I do remember seeing some really nice ones that others had. Course I was a kid so I really didn’t have a choice - just like the C:\ drive - lol. Dad needed most of the space for his NT 4.0 partition. I can’t remember what the size of the spinning disk was (total).

I spent a lot of my time as a kid watching that NT pipes wallpaper and the fish tank one lol.

 

[davidg4781]

Work. Jira with tons of tabs opened. Then different browsers for different work o365 accounts and emails. Hehe.

Personal browsing - yes completely agree. Lucky to have more than 6 tabs.

I guess that makes sense. I don't really have to do that much work in browsers.

Actually, come to think of it, I can sometimes get about 9-10 tabs open in Chrome. On some Dell PC we have at work.

 

[leman]

OP, what other high-end professional versatile tool can you get for 42$ per month? Exactly.

 

[newmacxc]

"Why spend $2,500+ for only in 5 years of OS support?"

Because after 5 years the Mac doesn't stop running.

In this household, there are 2 2010-vintage MacBooks (both still run), and a 2012 Mini (still runs), and a 2015 MacBook Pro (still runs). Even though the OS's are older, they still do well enough.

I care NOT AT ALL as to whether Apple "still supports" my Macs.
I DO CARE that they still boot and run, and run the software I need to use.

what about the security of the OS and your data ?

 

[Captain Trips]

"Why spend $2,500+ for only in 5 years of OS support?"

Because after 5 years the Mac doesn't stop running.

100% this. I own and use the following older Macs:

• 2015 MacBook Pro 15". Still running Monterrey, haven't checked for any Ventura supported Mac lists yet. Won't be surprised if I can't load Ventura on it. I can live with that.
• 2009 MacBook Pro 17". Just got this and haven't upgraded memory and replaced HDD with SDD. For now it runs El Capitan, but after upgrade I will load a patched version of Catalina.
• 2009 Mac Pro. Running a patched version of Catalina. Once Citrix Workspace stops working with Catalina I will look into getting a patched version of Big Sur (or a patched version of Monterrey if possible).
• In the past (last 2 years) I have installed a patched version of Catalina on a 2008 MacBook and a 2010 MacBook Pro and I was satisfied with the performance. I don't use them any more, but that is partly because I like the other Macs listed above and I have a new MBP 14 with an M1 Pro chip.

 

[satcomer]

the only way I -ay Apple care is on Laptops That I bought especially today with the sealed Mac s I buy now!