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spinedoc77

macrumors G4
Jun 11, 2009
11,488
5,413
I think apps are the new hotness that is taking the world by storm. If it were like you say, developers wouldn't be building apps in the first place to make money. The App Stores are the Gold Rush of this era. I understand that you are attempting to marginalize them because your platform of choice is lacking in this area and I get that. I will say that legacy apps is more along the lines of what you say and is in decline. This makes wanting a Surface Pro 3 a questionable investment.

Are people really going out and buying full blown applications and OSes these days? Maybe Office. Are folks still developing big time applications for the desktop these days? I'm not sure. Windows 8 store selection says no.

That's the thing, are devs really making money? A small handful of them are, sure. But if you look at the research MOST apps are just zombie apps, they sit on the marketplace and no one buys them or downloads them. Add to that the extreme redundancy, some apps have thousands of different versions by different devs and you can see why it's just a smokescreen.

Apps are a fad IMO. Bundling Photoshop into an "app" with on big green GO button and one big red STOP button will never work. Some apps lend themselves greatly to the app format, of course. But complicated desktop programs do not IMO. Edit: Let me clarify, IMO apps are a fad in the case of an app replacing a complicated desktop program, not apps in general which I find very useful when in a mobile situation. Putting my point another way, are you really going to write your masters thesis while standing on the subway with one hand on the pole? Some people seem to think they are and apps will help them do that.

You keep saying my platform of choice is lacking in apps, and I keep telling you that's not what I'm seeing. Between the overblown exaggerated app market and its importance to the consumer (see the research, NOT opinion links I posted) and how good the windows marketplace has gotten in the past 1-2 years that's just not the case. Not to rehash my other thread where I asked mac users what apps they were missing on windows, but feel free to point out an app that's missing that a large majority of consumers download.... yep.... You see I'm not marginalizing apps, my point is simple, the whole app debate is overblown and not nearly as much of an issue as made out to be.

As for desktop stuff if you think that "programs" are not being developed and sold anymore I've got a great bridge to sell you. Think about so many industries which rely on desktop stuff, medical, engineering, graphics, etc. just to name a very few. This entire Post PC era utter BS Jobs espoused is just a ruse to get consumers to buy an iPad AND a MacBook laptop.
 

Black Magic

macrumors 68030
Sep 30, 2012
2,813
1,506
That's the thing, are devs really making money? A small handful of them are, sure. But if you look at the research MOST apps are just zombie apps, they sit on the marketplace and no one buys them or downloads them. Add to that the extreme redundancy, some apps have thousands of different versions by different devs and you can see why it's just a smokescreen.

Apps are a fad IMO. Bundling Photoshop into an "app" with on big green GO button and one big red STOP button will never work. Some apps lend themselves greatly to the app format, of course. But complicated desktop programs do not IMO. Edit: Let me clarify, IMO apps are a fad in the case of an app replacing a complicated desktop program, not apps in general which I find very useful when in a mobile situation. Putting my point another way, are you really going to write your masters thesis while standing on the subway with one hand on the pole? Some people seem to think they are and apps will help them do that.

You keep saying my platform of choice is lacking in apps, and I keep telling you that's not what I'm seeing. Between the overblown exaggerated app market and its importance to the consumer (see the research, NOT opinion links I posted) and how good the windows marketplace has gotten in the past 1-2 years that's just not the case. Not to rehash my other thread where I asked mac users what apps they were missing on windows, but feel free to point out an app that's missing that a large majority of consumers download.... yep.... You see I'm not marginalizing apps, my point is simple, the whole app debate is overblown and not nearly as much of an issue as made out to be.

As for desktop stuff if you think that "programs" are not being developed and sold anymore I've got a great bridge to sell you. Think about so many industries which rely on desktop stuff, medical, engineering, graphics, etc. just to name a very few. This entire Post PC era utter BS Jobs espoused is just a ruse to get consumers to buy an iPad AND a MacBook laptop.

There is no disputing that all app stores have their share of crap apps. All software platforms do, legacy or not. To your point though, some apps are not fit for mobile/touch experience. Some apps/application need a laptop/desktop to reach their full potential. Adobe Photoshop and many others are such examples. Writing a thesis on any tablet is not ideal because it's not the right tool and ergonomaclly it doesn't work well.

Legacy applications are starting to decline though and there is no disputing this. A good example would be PC Gaming. While you still have Steam and many high quality games still available and in development, go walk into a Game Stop looking at the PC Game Section. Yes, over the past 10 years the PC Gaming section has come down too a shelf. BestBuy is the same. This is an ENTIRE SEGMENT of applications for traditional PCs eroding before your eyes. Half-Life 3 anyone? I'm not gonna sit here and say that the entire PC application market will disappear completely. It is clear that the focus has shifted to mobile when it makes sense too. Why develop Quicken when there are mobile equivalents always on you?

I will name 3 apps that are missing from the Windows app store they may be unimportant to you, but they are popular and utilized by millions:

1. Google Maps
2. SnapChat
3. Plants vs Zombies 2

Now I know there are work arounds and web browser versions of some of these but that is not an optimal experience on a touch friendly interface.

----------

Developers have been doing "apps" because the cost barrier is low. Distribution is digital and automatically taken care of by Apple or Google. You don't have to be a big software house making a deal with a publisher to bring your software to market.

But since the cost barrier is low, the mobile market is crowded, the pricepoint has dropped to free.99 + IAP, and mobile app stores are basically budget software stores.

Best part of the SP3 besides the stylus integration is it gives you access to the x86 ecosystem and its higher quality software. I'd rather use Ableton than some $2 toy music app. I'd rather play Wildstar than Flappy Bird.

As I stated above, go to BestBuy or Game Stop to look at the PC Gaming section. You will see a very small section that is night and day from the way it was back in the day. It could be said that the PC Gaming Application segment has been abandoned. I think x86 development in general is going that way as well. I don't think applications like Quicken and Norton AntiVirus are flying off the shelves anymore.
 

Liquorpuki

macrumors 68020
Jun 18, 2009
2,286
8
City of Angels
As I stated above, go to BestBuy or Game Stop to look at the PC Gaming section. You will see a very small section that is night and day from the way it was back in the day. It could be said that the PC Gaming Application segment has been abandoned. I think x86 development in general is going that way as well. I don't think applications like Quicken and Norton AntiVirus are flying off the shelves anymore.

Quicken lost traction because its functionality has been ported to the cloud by competitors. Norton lost traction because OS makers are now baking antivirus features into their products.

Best Buy box copies shrinking means digital distribution is growing at the expense of physical, not that x86 is dying. 2 different things. Steam is x86.
 

Black Magic

macrumors 68030
Sep 30, 2012
2,813
1,506
Quicken lost traction because its functionality has been ported to the cloud by competitors. Norton lost traction because OS makers are now baking antivirus features into their products.

Best Buy box copies shrinking means digital distribution is growing at the expense of physical, not that x86 is dying. 2 different things. Steam is x86.

I agree digital distribution is taking off, but that doesn't account for the entire story. PC Gaming as a whole is in decline and they aren't just shifting to electronic distribution. Developers have stopped making games for the PC. Halo 3 PC? Nope and that's owned by Microsoft. Whether piracy or consoles platforms being more lucrative is behind the decline, doesn't really matter. Folks are moving on to new platforms.

Norton and Quicken were staples, household names. Now there are becoming a footnote. This just underlines the point of software options slowly dwindling on the PC.

Steam is x86 and they are building their own platform to get away from OS dependence. I'm sure Valve is sitting in there war room discussing mobile platform concepts.
 

Renzatic

Suspended
I agree digital distribution is taking off, but that doesn't account for the entire story. PC Gaming as a whole is in decline and they aren't just shifting to electronic distribution. Developers have stopped making games for the PC. Halo 3 PC? Nope and that's owned by Microsoft. Whether piracy or consoles platforms being more lucrative is behind the decline, doesn't really matter. Folks are moving on to new platforms.

PC gaming is stronger than it's ever been. No, you won't find many PC games at Gamestop or any other brick and mortar stores, but that's because you don't need to go to a store to buy a PC game anymore. You grab it off Steam or GOG.

As of 2014, Steam has 75 million registered users, with an average of 4-8 million active at any given moment. As of writing, their storefront has 6 million people currently on it, buying stuff and/or playing games. I've seen that number dip as low as 1.3 million, and jump up as high as 20 million. They're all active users, tracked and accounted for.

Hardly what I'd call a dying platform.

And Halo 3 not coming out for the PC? It didn't come out for the PS3, either. What's your point? It's a console exclusive, something to draw people to their platform. MS doesn't release it everywhere else because they wanted you to buy a 360 to play it.
 

Black Magic

macrumors 68030
Sep 30, 2012
2,813
1,506
PC gaming is stronger than it's ever been. No, you won't find many PC games at Gamestop or any other brick and mortar stores, but that's because you don't need to go to a store to buy a PC game anymore. You grab it off Steam or GOG.

As of 2014, Steam has 75 million registered users, with an average of 4-8 million active at any given moment. As of writing, their storefront has 6 million people currently on it, buying stuff and/or playing games. I've seen that number dip as low as 1.3 million, and jump up as high as 20 million. They're all active users, tracked and accounted for.

Hardly what I'd call a dying platform.

And Halo 3 not coming out for the PC? It didn't come out for the PS3, either. What's your point? It's a console exclusive, something to draw people to their platform. MS doesn't release it everywhere else because they wanted you to buy a 360 to play it.

Steam is strong but that still doesn't mean that PC gaming isn't dying. Half Life 3 which would be made by the developers of Steam is not in development. Halo 1 and 2 came out for the PC but Halo 3, Reach and 4 did not? They support and utilize DirectX and the franchise is owned by Microsoft. Gears of War came to the PC as well. 2 and 3 did not. Not too many success stories these days on the PC gaming front.
 

Liquorpuki

macrumors 68020
Jun 18, 2009
2,286
8
City of Angels
I agree digital distribution is taking off, but that doesn't account for the entire story. PC Gaming as a whole is in decline and they aren't just shifting to electronic distribution. Developers have stopped making games for the PC.

Source?

While the PC market as a whole has been shrinking, everything I've read indicates the PC gaming market is doing fine.

Norton and Quicken were staples, household names. Now there are becoming a footnote. This just underlines the point of software options slowly dwindling on the PC.

Doesn't mean the software market is dying, could just be a failure of the company to adapt. 10 years ago, Palm and Blackberry were household names. Now they're nothing. But the smartphone market is better than ever.

Steam is x86 and they are building their own platform to get away from OS dependence. I'm sure Valve is sitting in there war room discussing mobile platform concepts.

Valve's goal with SteamOS is to enter the console market and disrupt it. But Steamboxes still run off x86.
 

Renzatic

Suspended
Steam is strong but that still doesn't mean that PC gaming isn't dying. Half Life 3 which would be made by the developers of Steam is not in development. Halo 1 and 2 came out for the PC but Halo 3, Reach and 4 did not? They support and utilize DirectX and the franchise is owned by Microsoft. Gears of War came to the PC as well. 2 and 3 did not. Not too many success stories these days on the PC gaming front.

Once again, console exclusives. MS isn't gonna release their Xbox cash cow even on their own Windows platform because...wait for it...they want you to buy an Xbox to play it.

Same with Epic. They're making games for the PC today, but GoW 2 and 3 were 360 exclusives. None of these games you mentioned came out for the PS3 either. Does that mean the Playstation brand was dying? Nope. It's stronger than ever. The PS4 is outselling the Xbox One by quite a huge margin.

The PC hasn't seen any decline in its userbase in the last 10 years. In fact, it's grown by quite a bit. The only games the PC doesn't see are those that are exclusive to a single platform, like Halo, Gears of War, Uncharted, and so on, which means one of the other consoles won't see its release either. You're always gonna have some wildly popular first or second party exclusives. They're only indicative of the strengths of the one platform they're on, not the weaknesses of the others.

There's literally zero evidence the PC is dying a slow death.

----------

Valve's goal with SteamOS is to enter the console market and disrupt it. But Steamboxes still run off x86.

Yup, and so are the consoles, actually. The PS4 and XBOne are for all intents and purposes slightly tweaked PCs. They're running Intel x86-64 chips on Intel motherboards.

If anything, this latest generation of consoles all but assured the continued existence of the PC as a gaming platform, since they now all share a similar internal hardware architecture, which makes it easier to port titles between them.
 

spinedoc77

macrumors G4
Jun 11, 2009
11,488
5,413
There is no disputing that all app stores have their share of crap apps. All software platforms do, legacy or not. To your point though, some apps are not fit for mobile/touch experience. Some apps/application need a laptop/desktop to reach their full potential. Adobe Photoshop and many others are such examples. Writing a thesis on any tablet is not ideal because it's not the right tool and ergonomaclly it doesn't work well.

Legacy applications are starting to decline though and there is no disputing this. A good example would be PC Gaming. While you still have Steam and many high quality games still available and in development, go walk into a Game Stop looking at the PC Game Section. Yes, over the past 10 years the PC Gaming section has come down too a shelf. BestBuy is the same. This is an ENTIRE SEGMENT of applications for traditional PCs eroding before your eyes. Half-Life 3 anyone? I'm not gonna sit here and say that the entire PC application market will disappear completely. It is clear that the focus has shifted to mobile when it makes sense too. Why develop Quicken when there are mobile equivalents always on you?

I will name 3 apps that are missing from the Windows app store they may be unimportant to you, but they are popular and utilized by millions:

1. Google Maps
2. SnapChat
3. Plants vs Zombies 2

Now I know there are work arounds and web browser versions of some of these but that is not an optimal experience on a touch friendly interface.

----------



As I stated above, go to BestBuy or Game Stop to look at the PC Gaming section. You will see a very small section that is night and day from the way it was back in the day. It could be said that the PC Gaming Application segment has been abandoned. I think x86 development in general is going that way as well. I don't think applications like Quicken and Norton AntiVirus are flying off the shelves anymore.

Absolutely 100% agree with your first paragraph, in fact that's really my main point.

As for your list:
1) Google maps is available on my windows tablet right through the internet, it functions quite well, street view, navigation, etc.
2) Snapchat: Will come soon: http://www.wpcentral.com/microsoft-talking-snapchat-about-windows-phone-app There are also 3rd party apps which seem from reviews to be just as good, although I personally don't know as I don't use snapchat.
3) Plants vs. Zombies 2. Actually I have this on my windows tablet so it's funny you bring it up. Load up an Android emulator and it runs like a dream, yep I have a FULL android OS inside my windows tablet. Come to think of it this works for Google maps also if you want to use the mobile interface, and heck Snapchat too.

Anyhow we went over much of this before in my previous thread. I think we may have found 1 or 2 examples but the other 99% had alternatives or even had official apps which forum users were not aware of.

As for legacy software, I'm just opining here and having a discussion as I can't say I know the numbers that research shows. I certainly don't see the extinction of desktops and desktop programs to be replaced by ipads. I don't even see Apple believing that with their robust desktop and laptop market. I think you are considering consumers and consumption apps, for which desktop programs are not as viable which I fully agree. But if you think of all the different industries and both personal and business needs which use a desktop, both Windows and Apple's OSx, you realize that the desktop and programs are not going anywhere.
 

Shuri

macrumors 6502
Nov 23, 2011
330
0
I really considered the Surface Pro 3 to have a lightweight PC, but was rather unsure if I wanted to return to windows yet..
yesterday I saw a friends windows 8 machine. He booted it and it wanted to install updates... (Why on earth does Windows still handle its updates that way?)
after a few minutes it said that it couldn't install the updates and wanted to reverse the changes... again after some time it said it was rebooting. While rebooting, it wanted to install some updates...

It stayed in this loop for 3 times or so and finally booted up after 45 minutes!!

These are exactly the things which I don't want to bother with anymore..

Now I know, the surface pro could be different, because it is built by MS itself.

So, beloved Surface Pro users, are their any windows typical annoyances? :)
 

mrex

macrumors 68040
Jul 16, 2014
3,458
1,527
europe
Been using almost two years win8/8.1 without problems. For me it was hard at first to get used to win8 after 7. But now I dont see any difference between 7 and 8.1. Basicly same things are on the same place. I dont use metro look, i boot it straight to the desktop view anyway...
 

Shuri

macrumors 6502
Nov 23, 2011
330
0
Been using almost two years win8/8.1 without problems. For me it was hard at first to get used to win8 after 7. But now I dont see any difference between 7 and 8.1. Basicly same things are on the same place. I dont use metro look, i boot it straight to the desktop view anyway...

But using metro would be rather essential when using it on a touch device like the surface.. ;)

You know, I've got a long history with windows and much too often I was facing problems like blue screens, weird errors or (but only twice I think) viruses...
I was tinkering a lot back than and that ultimately lead to theses things. But seeing that weird bug yesterday made me remember how I made a Samsung Windows 8 Tablet freeze in Store within half a minute... :rolleyes:
 

Black Magic

macrumors 68030
Sep 30, 2012
2,813
1,506
I really considered the Surface Pro 3 to have a lightweight PC, but was rather unsure if I wanted to return to windows yet..
yesterday I saw a friends windows 8 machine. He booted it and it wanted to install updates... (Why on earth does Windows still handle its updates that way?)
after a few minutes it said that it couldn't install the updates and wanted to reverse the changes... again after some time it said it was rebooting. While rebooting, it wanted to install some updates...

It stayed in this loop for 3 times or so and finally booted up after 45 minutes!!

These are exactly the things which I don't want to bother with anymore..

Now I know, the surface pro could be different, because it is built by MS itself.

So, beloved Surface Pro users, are their any windows typical annoyances? :)

Surface Pro would be no different. It is full blown Windows and uses the same update process. Microsoft recently had an issue with patches blue screening systems this past month and had to pull them.
 

MozMan68

macrumors 603
Jun 29, 2010
6,152
5,261
South Cackalacky
Surface Pro would be no different. It is full blown Windows and uses the same update process. Microsoft recently had an issue with patches blue screening systems this past month and had to pull them.

Source? Have not had that happen and frequent the Windows blogs as well without hearing about this once. :confused:
 

Black Magic

macrumors 68030
Sep 30, 2012
2,813
1,506
Source? Have not had that happen and frequent the Windows blogs as well without hearing about this once. :confused:

Just Google it. They just reissued the patches again. This was a Windows 8.x and Windows Server issue as they share patches.
 

spinedoc77

macrumors G4
Jun 11, 2009
11,488
5,413

TheHateMachine

macrumors 6502a
Sep 18, 2012
846
1,354
Steam is strong but that still doesn't mean that PC gaming isn't dying. Half Life 3 which would be made by the developers of Steam is not in development. Halo 1 and 2 came out for the PC but Halo 3, Reach and 4 did not? They support and utilize DirectX and the franchise is owned by Microsoft. Gears of War came to the PC as well. 2 and 3 did not. Not too many success stories these days on the PC gaming front.

Valve seems to be focused on their distribution platform, their new console and trying to push existing games as esports. A Valve game is unlikely to come out any time soon. IF it does, it will be in the fashion of their last couple of games. They will absorb a small developer like they did for DOTA, L4D, Portal.

The original Halo game was actually a PC/Mac game first before it became their must have software for the 360 and at the time they were trying to push Windows Live as a gaming service. The service was shuttered after 2 released and Microsoft decided to focus Halo into being their console pushing software. As for anything Epic made during the GOW days, they do haphazard crappy ports to the PC and got punished by their fans for it. Every console game they have ported were tremendous flops because they were just bad ports. Thus they pulled out of PC and Cliff B blamed piracy for UT and GOW 1's PC failure (what a turd) however, since Epic flushed the toilet, they have decided to make an actual PC exclusive version of the next Unreal.

Lastly, COD and BF... the two biggest MMS FPS franchises both come out on PC as well as consoles and sell in the millions. In fact, it was speculated that BF4 outsold the 360 and PS3 (not combined) on the PC until the next gen versions were launched. On top of that, COD continues to top the charts in Steam as far as sales go.

PC gaming is hardly dying.

I even forgot to mention LoL, DOTA, and WOW. Three huge games that are PC exclusives, have huge tournaments that rival the size of the console centered MLG gig, have cash prizes that dwarf everything else (The recent DOTA Tourney was in the millions) and dominate Twitch.tv viewership.
 
Last edited:

westrock2000

macrumors 6502a
Oct 18, 2013
524
22
How so? Do you mean because the lack of apps for the RT tablet?

Specifically with the RT, yes the Apps are limited as is the hardware. It is not a snappy device by any means.

With comparing a full blown Windows tablet to a iPad, then I would still give the nod to the iPad because everything is made on that platform to function as a tablet. Yes the games and capabilities will be limited, but using it for what it's meant to be used for it's more optimized. Especially if your in the Apple system. If you absolutely have to listen to OGG Vorbis Music and MKV movies, then a Surface Pro might be a better choice for you.

My Surface RT has better compatibility with websites, but it is not nearly as nice an experience because the operating system wasn't designed solely with the intention of operating on a 10" or smaller device.

But as I said I do not like one over the other. I keep them both around and use them when I feel one is better then the other. I even have a Google Chromebook that I like the least, but use it when I want to <just> surf, because it is pretty good at that.

----------

Is the Surface Pro 1 still worth buying?

http://memphis.craigslist.org/sys/4646293827.html

$400 obo for the 256 seems like a good price. They dont know anything about computers, I asked what cpu it had and they said Windows

Or stolen. Never know.
 

mrex

macrumors 68040
Jul 16, 2014
3,458
1,527
europe
But using metro would be rather essential when using it on a touch device like the surface.. ;) 1

You know, I've got a long history with windows and much too often I was facing problems like blue screens, weird errors or (but only twice I think) viruses... 2
I was tinkering a lot back than and that ultimately lead to theses things. But seeing that weird bug yesterday made me remember how I made a Samsung Windows 8 Tablet freeze in Store within half a minute... :rolleyes: 3

1. not necessary

2. a) been facing the bluescreen when i had win98... after win2000 i havent seen the bluescreen
b) i had once a virus in my computer, 15 years ago. probably from an email i quess.

3. it was in a store, you dont know what it was done to it. to get better, buy better hardware. if you buy budger, you get a budget product. if you want high quality, buy high quality. it is up to you. lots of problems are related to hardware.

i have been using my Zenbook almost two years now without any issue and it is still working as a new laptop. My budget price laptop is working like a budget laptop.
 

rowspaxe

macrumors 68020
Jan 29, 2010
2,214
1,009
Comparing a 27inch desktop to a portable tablet is interesting. Must be tough taking it with you. Windows experience with parallels is not a great experience with metro apps.

Interesting? Its such a reach the op must be trolling or retarded or both.
It has that "who needs an ipad?" vibe.

In Parallels defense--there are no great experiences with metro apps. I still cant believe MS unleashed this next gen windows without writing a single go to app to attract traffic. Fresh paint has promise but its ultimately so hard to use you look elsewhere. There is nothing comparable to Garage Band.
I'll give you one note for metro--even if it is a shadow of the x86 app.

I love the surface pro--but MS might have been better of tossing a billion down the windows store drain.

----------

I really considered the Surface Pro 3 to have a lightweight PC, but was rather unsure if I wanted to return to windows yet..
yesterday I saw a friends windows 8 machine. He booted it and it wanted to install updates... (Why on earth does Windows still handle its updates that way?)
after a few minutes it said that it couldn't install the updates and wanted to reverse the changes... again after some time it said it was rebooting. While rebooting, it wanted to install some updates...

It stayed in this loop for 3 times or so and finally booted up after 45 minutes!!

These are exactly the things which I don't want to bother with anymore..

Now I know, the surface pro could be different, because it is built by MS itself.

So, beloved Surface Pro users, are their any windows typical annoyances? :)

Do you really think if this experience--almost certainly manufactured--was the norm that anyone would be using windows? I have had the surface for about 6 months and it has yet to crash.

----------

Is the Surface Pro 1 still worth buying?

http://memphis.craigslist.org/sys/4646293827.html

$400 obo for the 256 seems like a good price. They dont know anything about computers, I asked what cpu it had and they said Windows

I have the Surface 1 and I really like it. The pen is great, and tracks much better with the latest wacom drivers. Take a look at close outs on the sp2--used electronics are a hassle
 

orangextc

macrumors newbie
Aug 13, 2013
13
0
Its light, it has a touch screen, the keyboard can be detached, it has pen support for excellent inking, the kickstand is amazing - makes for versatile setups for watching movies, browsing comfortably in tablet mode etc, high res screen, windows 8 working flawlessly on hardware it was designed to run on.

Because a mac can run windows doesn't mean it is the best device to do so.

Exactly. I'd love to have something like the surface running OSX over my 13" inch macbook pro, which I carry around to type notes in class and an iPad for reading. It would be great to just carry around one device.
 
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