Tablets Why the Surface is a terrible tablet right now and forever.

[BaldiMac]

Yes, it's not as good as touch-centric apps, but it's usable, and those legacy apps will work just fine without a keyboard, but, yes, better with one.

"Just fine" being relative to your expectations, and dependent on the app, of course. I think you are only considering a minimal subset of Windows software. For example, most games will suck.

But you still didn't address the questions I asked about mapping mouse events to touch.

 

[jsw]

"Just fine" being relative to your expectations, and dependent on the app, of course. I think you are only considering a minimal subset of Windows software. For example, most games will suck.

But you still didn't address the questions I asked about mapping mouse events to touch.

Touch by default is mouse move. Tap is left click. Right click can be two-finger tap, an option on a mouse widget that hovers where you touch, and so on.

These problems have all been addressed.

Again, touch-oriented apps will be better, but most of what most people do on most legacy apps doesn't involve a ton of right-clicking and delicate mouse work. Clearly, there are apps that will be a real pain to use, but the point is that even those apps are usable. Most work fine. Not having a scroll wheel sucks, but, again, we're talking about legacy apps, and developers will improve the ones where profit can be made by improving them. The fact Office will be touch-capable pretty much covers most users most of the time.

 

[BaldiMac]

Touch by default is mouse move. Tap is left click. Right click can be two-finger tap, an option on a mouse widget that hovers where you touch, and so on.

You are going to two finger tap on a target that was designed for a mouse pointer? Good luck. Again, all of these "solutions" have trade off when you are dealing with apps not designed for touch.

These problems have all been addressed.

Or some of them have been addressed poorly. You still ignored the other two issues.

Again, touch-oriented apps will be better, but most of what most people do on most legacy apps doesn't involve a ton of right-clicking and delicate mouse work. Clearly, there are apps that will be a real pain to use, but the point is that even those apps are usable. Most work fine. Not having a scroll wheel sucks, but, again, we're talking about legacy apps, and developers will improve the ones where profit can be made by improving them. The fact Office will be touch-capable pretty much covers most users most of the time.

Again, you are arguing a strawman. Most of what you are saying here is exactly my point. The touch experience for legacy apps will be poor in a lot of cases.

 

[jsw]

You are going to two finger tap on a target that was designed for a mouse pointer? Good luck. Again, all of these "solutions" have trade off when you are dealing with apps not designed for touch.

Or some of them have been addressed poorly. You still ignored the other two issues.

Again, you are arguing a strawman. Most of what you are saying here is exactly my point. The touch experience for legacy apps will be poor in a lot of cases.

I'm not ignoring your issues at all. I admit that using a tablet without a keyboard - and I don't see why you'd be using a Surface without a keyboard, but whatever - isn't as good as using a computer with a monitor and keyboard. However, in my experience, in most cases, it's fine. Not poor. Fine. In a select few cherry-picked cases, yes, it will be unpleasant. But not for most people most of the time, and it's not like people will be using the Surface purely and solely to run legacy Windows apps. So, again, I don't see the point.

Most day-to-day apps will be touch-enabled soon enough (Office, browsers, email). Most of the remaining apps will be perfectly usable, just not as usable. A select few apps will be nearly unusable, but not the apps used by most people on Windows.

Using a tablet inherently involves tradeoffs. Any tablet, and nearly any app that requires text input. This is not a Surface-specific thing, and the Surface will be the best tablet for Windows apps, anywhere, and given that an Apple iPad is perfectly usable with Remote Desktop, a Surface will be a non-issue, or at least no more of an issue than any other tablet.

 

[spinedoc77]

How?

"Not that difficult" isn't really the standard I'm shooting for. Legacy apps will be a poor experience on a Surface when using it without a keyboard/mouse. This really isn't a controversial position!

Sounds like you personally have difficulty, but others do not. Once again its about choice. I wouldn't term it poor at all, it's very doable. I'm just having a hard time seeing what's so difficult. You keep saying things like mapping mouse input to touch is a poor experience. I highly beg to differ, it's quite easy to simply touch something, arguably easier than to abstract a layer in clicking a tool called a mouse. You can touch and drag, I so it all the time in file explorer for example. Long touch to right click. I'm having a hard time believing you are really assigning difficulty to these actions.

 

[BaldiMac]

I'm not ignoring your issues at all.

And, yet, you didn't offer a solution.

I admit that using a tablet without a keyboard - and I don't see why you'd be using a Surface without a keyboard, but whatever - isn't as good as using a computer with a monitor and keyboard.

Then why not buy a laptop!

However, in my experience, in most cases, it's fine. Not poor. Fine. In a select few cherry-picked cases, yes, it will be unpleasant.

And your experience would be "a select few cherry-picked cases." There are hundred of thousands of legacy windows apps, and a whole lot of them are going to work poorly on a Surface when using it as a tablet without keyboard/mouse.

There is a reason Windows has failed on tablets for years. And there is a reason that Microsoft has updated Office to work better with touch. And there is a reason that they introduced Metro as the primary interface for touch input. Playing that off likes it's irrelevant is missing the forest for the trees.

Sounds like you personally have difficulty, but others do not. Once again its about choice. I wouldn't term it poor at all, it's very doable. I'm just having a hard time seeing what's so difficult. You keep saying things like mapping mouse input to touch is a poor experience. I highly beg to differ, it's quite easy to simply touch something, arguably easier than to abstract a layer in clicking a tool called a mouse. You can touch and drag, I so it all the time in file explorer for example. Long touch to right click. I'm having a hard time believing you are really assigning difficulty to these actions.

You wouldn't have a hard time if you actually thought about the questions that I asked. How does a long touch to right-click work in games? Not very well for a lot of them. What does that mean for controls that require a click and hold with a mouse? This isn't subjective. Again, you are thinking about the situations where touch would be easy, instead of the ones where touch would be hard or confusing.

 

[jsw]

And, yet, you didn't offer a solution.

I don't see a problem requiring one.

Then why not buy a laptop!

It won't have a touchscreen. And there will be a lot of touch-enabled apps for the surface.

And your experience would be "a select few cherry-picked cases." There are hundred of thousands of legacy windows apps, and a whole lot of them are going to work poorly on a Surface when using it as a tablet without keyboard/mouse.

Office, email, and browsers are not "a select few cherry-picked cases." They represent the vast and overwhelming majority of use cases for most users. The fact that there are hundreds of thousands of legacy apps is irrelevant for several reasons:

• Most users don't use them.
• Those that do, can. We've gone over that. If you desperately need to use some legacy app, you can attach the keyboard and/or use the stylus. The fact you can do so doesn't mean the tablet is useless without doing so, just not all that useful for some legacy apps.
• The fact you can at least use legacy apps effectively adds those hundreds of thousands of legacy apps into MS's app store, in the same sense that the iPad inherited lower-res iPhone apps. Is the user experience great? No. But they at least can use them, unlike on any other tablet except via Remote Desktop.
• The apps that most people will want to use but which are horrifically legacy will be either ported or replaced by similar touch-enabled apps, because that's how capitalism tends to work. Demand will cause supply.

There is a reason Windows has failed on tablets for years. And there is a reason that Microsoft has updated Office to work better with touch. And there is a reason that they introduced Metro as the primary interface for touch input. Playing that off likes it's irrelevant is missing the forest for the trees.

The reason is that there are a crapload of touch-enabled iOS and Android apps, and people buy tablets from Apple and Google partners because of that. Now, all the cool apps will be touch-enabled on the Surface and people will be able to use legacy apps. Score for MS.

You wouldn't have a hard time if you actually thought about the questions that I asked. How does a long touch to right-click work in games? Not very well for a lot of them. What does that mean for controls that require a click and hold with a mouse? This isn't subjective. Again, you are thinking about the situations where touch would be easy, instead of the ones where touch would be hard or confusing.

Have you ever used Remote Desktop on a tablet? It really isn't all that confusing. And legacy games? Really? The fact that some legacy games won't play well isn't going to sink the Surface. People just won't play them, just like most gamers don't play legacy games now.

You seem to be stuck in a belief that the Surface will just be a tablet form of Windows with only legacy apps on it and no way to effectively use them. Instead, it will have all the most-commonly used apps in touch-enabled form, tons of games (you seriously think the game developers won't develop for MS?), etc. AND there will be all the legacy apps as an added bonus to ease the transition.

I would freaking love to be able to run all my OS X apps on an iPad. But I can't. Were I an MS user (other than at work), I'd be thrilled at the prospects of the Surface Pro. Because, 99% of the time when I didn't need legacy apps, I'd have a lightweight tablet. And when I did, I'd still have a lightweight tablet - but one that could run legacy apps.

 

[BaldiMac]

I don't see a problem requiring one.
It won't have a touchscreen. And there will be a lot of touch-enabled apps for the surface.
Office, email, and browsers are not "a select few cherry-picked cases." They represent the vast and overwhelming majority of use cases for most users. The fact that there are hundreds of thousands of legacy apps is irrelevant for several reasons:

• Most users don't use them.
• Those that do, can. We've gone over that. If you desperately need to use some legacy app, you can attach the keyboard and/or use the stylus. The fact you can do so doesn't mean the tablet is useless without doing so, just not all that useful for some legacy apps.
• The fact you can at least use legacy apps effectively adds those hundreds of thousands of legacy apps into MS's app store, in the same sense that the iPad inherited lower-res iPhone apps. Is the user experience great? No. But they at least can use them, unlike on any other tablet except via Remote Desktop.
• The apps that most people will want to use but which are horrifically legacy will be either ported or replaced by similar touch-enabled apps, because that's how capitalism tends to work. Demand will cause supply.

The reason is that there are a crapload of touch-enabled iOS and Android apps, and people buy tablets from Apple and Google partners because of that. Now, all the cool apps will be touch-enabled on the Surface and people will be able to use legacy apps. Score for MS.

Have you ever used Remote Desktop on a tablet? It really isn't all that confusing. And legacy games? Really? The fact that some legacy games won't play well isn't going to sink the Surface. People just won't play them, just like most gamers don't play legacy games now.

You seem to be stuck in a belief that the Surface will just be a tablet form of Windows with only legacy apps on it and no way to effectively use them. Instead, it will have all the most-commonly used apps in touch-enabled form, tons of games (you seriously think the game developers won't develop for MS?), etc. AND there will be all the legacy apps as an added bonus to ease the transition.

I would freaking love to be able to run all my OS X apps on an iPad. But I can't. Were I an MS user (other than at work), I'd be thrilled at the prospects of the Surface Pro. Because, 99% of the time when I didn't need legacy apps, I'd have a lightweight tablet. And when I did, I'd still have a lightweight tablet - but one that could run legacy apps.

You've completely lost track of the point we were discussing.

 

[jsw]

You've completely lost track of the point we were discussing.

Please remind me: what was that?

Edit: sorry, not being rude. I thought the point was that the Surface is or is not a terrible tablet.

 

[spinedoc77]

And, yet, you didn't offer a solution.



Then why not buy a laptop!



And your experience would be "a select few cherry-picked cases." There are hundred of thousands of legacy windows apps, and a whole lot of them are going to work poorly on a Surface when using it as a tablet without keyboard/mouse.

There is a reason Windows has failed on tablets for years. And there is a reason that Microsoft has updated Office to work better with touch. And there is a reason that they introduced Metro as the primary interface for touch input. Playing that off likes it's irrelevant is missing the forest for the trees.



You wouldn't have a hard time if you actually thought about the questions that I asked. How does a long touch to right-click work in games? Not very well for a lot of them. What does that mean for controls that require a click and hold with a mouse? This isn't subjective. Again, you are thinking about the situations where touch would be easy, instead of the ones where touch would be hard or confusing.

I'm still having a very hard time seeing your point. I'm sorry I don't have time to play very many games on my tablet, I'm quite jealous that you do. Certainly games are a big selling point on the ipad, but 1) the market is still very young for microsoft, they have a lot of incredible IPs like Halo and if they are smart they will capitalize on them, and 2) gaming SUCKS IMO on the ipad, games like first person shooters for example control horribly without a physical game pad, what's your point? Sure the bedazzled stuff works just fine, but then it works just fine on windows as well, touch is touch. Are you saying that Doom runs better on the ipad than on a windows tablet, because I'm here to break it to you that it doesn't. While you are at it can you explain how to do a right click on the ipad ??! Nah, it's a non issue.

This is where I'm completely confused though. You have the SAME exact limitations on the ipad, last I checked it was a touch centric device, in fact it is ONLY a touch device from the factory. It's very odd that you are criticizing the windows tablet because you don't feel that desktop legacy programs will translate well to a touch interface, which is your opinion and you are well entitled to it, but to that I say so what? You can run a windows tablet virtually EXACTLY like an ipad, using touch only programs and never ever even look at the desktop or a single legacy program, so what's your point? For others such as myself I relish the fact that I now have CHOICE, if I have a proprietary windows program (hint, virtually all professional medical programs are windows proprietary) I can flip over to desktop mode and use them, I have zero option to do that on the ipad. You are criticizing something you never have to use if you don't want to in favor of not even having that choice, senseless. That, of course, is after a simple difference of preference. I don't have ANY difficulty running a legacy program in touch mode on my windows tablet, but once again I have the choice to dock my tablet and run it as a laptop, something which is poorly implemented and shoehorned into ipad but quite natural on a windows tablet. I'm still not seeing where you find touching something onscreen versus clicking a mouse is that difficult, you raise your finger, you touch the screen where you would normally touch the mouse, your hold your finger if you want to right click, etc etc, seriously it's not rocket science.

No one is arguing that Microsoft is making important steps to integrate its OS and programs better with Touch, and no one is arguing that legacy programs will not benefit from being updated to have touch elements in them. So you see these programs being improved, just like with iOS the programs will catch up. MS failed at the tablet market due to the hardware being crappy, slow hardware, thick and unwieldy, hot, fans, horrid battery life now that doesn't exist anymore, the hardware is on par with the ipads of the world. Software was certainly a big factor as well, and iOS showed us which direction to take, but IMO we went to far in that direction. I don't need a huge green GO button in every program I want to work with, as I don't need to work on a photoshop project on the subway either. Photoshop, for example, will never be utilized to its full potential on the ipad, you realize this when you have the incredible experience of using photoshop on a windows tablet with a pressure sensitive stylus, absolutely amazing.

I respect your opinion and it's a fascinating conversation, but at some point I have to wonder if you are just having some fun and trolling on purpose for a response because it just doesn't make much sense to me.

 

[BaldiMac]

Please remind me: what was that?

Simply that I think you oversimplified when you claimed that it was easy to give legacy apps on a Surface touch support by mapping a tap to a mouse-click.

I provided several examples where mapping touch support can be difficult or confusing on legacy controls.

Here is another one. You have a legacy app with several objects on a canvas. To select a subset of the objects, you would normally draw a selection box with a mouse. How do you do that with touch if the app isn't updated? Tap and drag would scroll the canvas, not create a selection box.

Nothing about legacy apps being useless. Nothing about the Surface being useless. Nothing about legacy apps being the only thing available on a Surface (Where did you get that from?!?).

I'm still having a very hard time seeing your point. I'm sorry I don't have time to play very many games on my tablet, I'm quite jealous that you do. Certainly games are a big selling point on the ipad, but 1) the market is still very young for microsoft, they have a lot of incredible IPs like Halo and if they are smart they will capitalize on them, and 2) gaming SUCKS IMO on the ipad, games like first person shooters for example control horribly without a physical game pad, what's your point? Sure the bedazzled stuff works just fine, but then it works just fine on windows as well, touch is touch. Are you saying that Doom runs better on the ipad than on a windows tablet, because I'm here to break it to you that it doesn't. While you are at it can you explain how to do a right click on the ipad ??! Nah, it's a non issue.

This is where I'm completely confused though. You have the SAME exact limitations on the ipad, last I checked it was a touch centric device, in fact it is ONLY a touch device from the factory. It's very odd that you are criticizing the windows tablet because you don't feel that desktop legacy programs will translate well to a touch interface, which is your opinion and you are well entitled to it, but to that I say so what? You can run a windows tablet virtually EXACTLY like an ipad, using touch only programs and never ever even look at the desktop or a single legacy program, so what's your point? For others such as myself I relish the fact that I now have CHOICE, if I have a proprietary windows program (hint, virtually all professional medical programs are windows proprietary) I can flip over to desktop mode and use them, I have zero option to do that on the ipad. You are criticizing something you never have to use if you don't want to in favor of not even having that choice, senseless. That, of course, is after a simple difference of preference. I don't have ANY difficulty running a legacy program in touch mode on my windows tablet, but once again I have the choice to dock my tablet and run it as a laptop, something which is poorly implemented and shoehorned into ipad but quite natural on a windows tablet. I'm still not seeing where you find touching something onscreen versus clicking a mouse is that difficult, you raise your finger, you touch the screen where you would normally touch the mouse, your hold your finger if you want to right click, etc etc, seriously it's not rocket science.

No one is arguing that Microsoft is making important steps to integrate its OS and programs better with Touch, and no one is arguing that legacy programs will not benefit from being updated to have touch elements in them. So you see these programs being improved, just like with iOS the programs will catch up. MS failed at the tablet market due to the hardware being crappy, slow hardware, thick and unwieldy, hot, fans, horrid battery life now that doesn't exist anymore, the hardware is on par with the ipads of the world. Software was certainly a big factor as well, and iOS showed us which direction to take, but IMO we went to far in that direction. I don't need a huge green GO button in every program I want to work with, as I don't need to work on a photoshop project on the subway either. Photoshop, for example, will never be utilized to its full potential on the ipad, you realize this when you have the incredible experience of using photoshop on a windows tablet with a pressure sensitive stylus, absolutely amazing.

I respect your opinion and it's a fascinating conversation, but at some point I have to wonder if you are just having some fun and trolling on purpose for a response because it just doesn't make much sense to me.

See the explanation above about what I was actually discussing.

As far as your claim, that you have "the SAME exact limitations on the ipad", you are missing the difference between an app designed for touch and a legacy app on the Surface that is not.

I did not criticize the Surface at all. Just the ease of use of some legacy apps when using it as a tablet.

 

[jsw]

I did not criticize the Surface at all. Just the ease of use of some legacy apps when using it as a tablet.

If truly all we are arguing about is that some legacy apps will be difficult to use on a tablet, then I concede.

 

[spinedoc77]

Simply that I think you oversimplified when you claimed that it was easy to give legacy apps on a Surface touch support by mapping a tap to a mouse-click.

I provided several examples where mapping touch support can be difficult or confusing on legacy controls.

Here is another one. You have a legacy app with several objects on a canvas. To select a subset of the objects, you would normally draw a selection box with a mouse. How do you do that with touch if the app isn't updated? Tap and drag would scroll the canvas, not create a selection box.

Nothing about legacy apps being useless. Nothing about the Surface being useless. Nothing about legacy apps being the only thing available on a Surface (Where did you get that from?!?).



See the explanation above about what I was actually discussing.

As far as your claim, that you have "the SAME exact limitations on the ipad", you are missing the difference between an app designed for touch and a legacy app on the Surface that is not.

I did not criticize the Surface at all. Just the ease of use of some legacy apps when using it as a tablet.

OK so it's just a degree of difficulty that we disagree on. You think it's difficult enough to dissuade some consumers from using legacy programs, I disagree and find using legacy programs quite simple on a windows tablet. Possibly chalked up to our different uses, I don't play many games, and use my windows tablet to intake patients, fill out forms/history, document encounters, communicate this with other providers electronically, write and edit reports collaboratively over the net, etc. For personal I use photoshop a lot, surf the internet, etc. All of these over legacy programs, even surfing the internet is done on the desktop IE10. Piece of cake every single one of them, and MUCH easier and more productive than any other tablet out there. But once again, seems we differ on our uses of a tablet. I see you are not disparaging the legacy programs, but I'm still confused why waste energy on arguing the degree of difficulty, it's something that's pretty individual to the user. Seems like a lot of work to just argue a small shade of grey.

As far as the ipad being more limited, I think you are missing the point, or maybe it's just a difference of our user habits. The touch apps on the ipad 1) have the same limitations as a touch app on any other OS, and 2) have LESS functionality than a desktop legacy program on a windows tablet, not more as you seem to think. The ipad was not the answer to touch input, it was a stop gap on the road to having truly mobile tablet computing, but it's input system is too lacking and primitive leading to programs which resemble toy versions of the desktop program. The answer is not the legacy program itself either, but it is certainly not the ipad version, common sense would dictate that the solution is somewhere in the middle but probably closer to the desktop side. It really isn't difficult to use, remote desktop is pretty insane for example, I loved running a full windows PC on my ipad before the windows tablets came out and would have used them in my practice if it wasn't for privacy concerns in transmitting sensitive data.

You bring out silly stuff like drawing a box on a canvas, you do know this is possible with touch, for example in photoshop you can draw a box in image editing, touch with 2 fingers and spread them apart to define the box and you can resize it afterwards as well. This can also be done to select multiple files in file explorer just to give another example. I figured examples would be better than just something abstract like what you described. So that's resolved, right click is resolved, dragging is resolved, heck even mouse hovering is resolved with the digitized stylus (something the ipad will never resolve) which one is next?

It just seems that people without foresight keep bringing up the same things about the windows tablets which are things that are being constantly worked on, improved, etc. Heck the Pro version of the Surface isn't even due out for another 2 1/2 months, we've seen the incredible interface enhancements MS has made to Office for example, and they still can't see that software developers will take us to a place where the interface makes sense in the near future.

 

[spinedoc77]

That's oversimplifying a bit! What's a right-click? What's a hover? What's the difference between a dragging an object and scrolling? What about when touch targets are too small because they were designed for a mouse?

There's a reason Microsoft added touch support to Office. There's a reason they developed Metro.

Here is your original complaint. Right click is a long touch hold, drag an object by touch hold with one finger and move it, scroll with 2 fingers, there are no touch targets which are too small, even on my ipad I can hit a tiny tiny little link/target with very good precision (you can also zoom THEN touch, doh?), hover can be done with a digitized screen and stylus.

Did I cover your initial concerns or did I miss any?

 

[BaldiMac]

Here is your original complaint. Right click is a long touch hold, drag an object by touch hold with one finger and move it, scroll with 2 fingers, there are no touch targets which are too small, even on my ipad I can hit a tiny tiny little link/target with very good precision (you can also zoom THEN touch, doh?), hover can be done with a digitized screen and stylus.

Did I cover your initial concerns or did I miss any?

Sigh. As I responded to before, all of those mappings will have issues with different legacy apps. For example, when right-clicking does something other than bring up a context menu. Photoshop for example.

As far as no target being too small, I don't know what to say. Try a color picker in Photoshop. (Honest question. You implied that you would be able to easily zoom in on the interface. How would you do that on a Surface? Obviously, pinch to zoom would zoom content and not the interface, right?)

Again, you are looking at the situations where it will make sense, I was commenting that there are situations where it will not. You seem to think that they will all work like they do on an iPad. They will not. I'd bet on lots of problems, particularly when apps use non-standard controls and other elements.

You bring out silly stuff like drawing a box on a canvas, you do know this is possible with touch, for example in photoshop you can draw a box in image editing, touch with 2 fingers and spread them apart to define the box and you can resize it afterwards as well.

That's not what I said at all. I was talking about creating a selection box to select multiple objects. Not drawing a rectangle.

Here is how you do it in the iOS version of pages.
http://support.apple.com/kb/PH3559?viewlocale=en_US

That won't work in a legacy app.

This can also be done to select multiple files in file explorer just to give another example.

How?

I see you are not disparaging the legacy programs, but I'm still confused why waste energy on arguing the degree of difficulty, it's something that's pretty individual to the user. Seems like a lot of work to just argue a small shade of grey.

Because I originally made a simple statement that continues to be mischaracterized.

 

[spinedoc77]

Because I originally made a simple statement that continues to be mischaracterized.

No I think it's just a simple difference of how we use our devices, that's all. I just don't see it being the end of the world using legacy programs, I see it as being quite easy. But I addressed the particular ones you had an issue with, they are quite useable in legacy programs.

As I said though, in the end the developers will move closer to the middle. But for the programs which don't get updated the big deal is choice, I'll never have that choice on an ipad to use those programs. The ones I can use are watered down and toy like. FYI Pages is not that simple or intuitive to use IMO.

 

[BaldiMac]

No I think it's just a simple difference of how we use our devices, that's all.

Not what I said.

I just don't see it being the end of the world using legacy programs, I see it as being quite easy.

Never said it was the end of the world. Never said it will affect all or even most of them.

But I addressed the particular ones you had an issue with, they are quite useable in legacy programs.

No, you didn't. You just picked easy examples that will work okay and ignored the problem cases.

As I said though, in the end the developers will move closer to the middle. But for the programs which don't get updated the big deal is choice, I'll never have that choice on an ipad to use those programs. The ones I can use are watered down and toy like. FYI Pages is not that simple or intuitive to use IMO.

Yep. That's your preference. Nothing to do with what I said. You want my argument to be that legacy apps are a problem for the Surface. It's not. I never said anything of the sort.

 

[Liquorpuki]

That won't work in a legacy app.

Then flip the kickstand, use the type cover, plug in a USB mouse.

You're arguing a moot point that some things won't work well or at all in tablet mode. That's pretty much a given. If they could, there'd be no need for the touch/type cover and that kickstand on the back. Instead, those things are selling points.

If the iPad could run legacy OS X apps, it would have the same exact problem. But Apple won't let you run legacy apps. And having the option to run legacy software, even if you have to rotate the tablet 180 degrees and prop the kickstand to use it, beats not having the option at all.

 

[Renzatic]

It's a moot point discussing how difficult legacy apps are going to be to use via touch. Wanna know why? I'll tell you...

It's because 99.864% of the people using legacy apps on a touchscreen device will be doing so with a stylus. A method of input supported in Windows for well over a decade now. It's one of the main reasons why the Surface Pro is going to come with one, because even MS knows you don't want to use desktop Photoshop with just your finger.

 

[insimbi]

even MS knows you don't want to use desktop Photoshop with just your finger.

That's what she said

 

[Renzatic]

olol ur mom

 

[BaldiMac]

some things won't work well or at all in tablet mode. That's pretty much a given.

That was exactly my point. Not sure why it was so controversial.

 

[spinedoc77]

Not what I said.



Never said it was the end of the world. Never said it will affect all or even most of them.



No, you didn't. You just picked easy examples that will work okay and ignored the problem cases.



Yep. That's your preference. Nothing to do with what I said. You want my argument to be that legacy apps are a problem for the Surface. It's not. I never said anything of the sort.

That's oversimplifying a bit! What's a right-click? What's a hover? What's the difference between a dragging an object and scrolling? What about when touch targets are too small because they were designed for a mouse?

Your words, not mine, which I addressed, not "easy" ones, rather the ones you specifically complained about.

I also never said, that you said it was a difference in use patterns, that's what I said, keep up. You may not have said end of the world, but you made it pretty clear when YOU said:

Legacy apps will be a poor experience on a Surface when using it without a keyboard/mouse
Again, all of these "solutions" have trade off when you are dealing with apps not designed for touch.
The touch experience for legacy apps will be poor in a lot of cases.
There are hundred of thousands of legacy windows apps, and a whole lot of them are going to work poorly on a Surface when using it as a tablet without keyboard/mouse.

That's only one page of your comments, I was too lazy to go through the other pages. Sure I won't use "end of the world" but it sure seems pretty appropriate. Sounds to me like you are saying specifically that legacy apps will be a problem for the surface, feel free to clarify your position, but based on your own words you can see how others thought you took that position.

At the end of the day if you are saying that some things won't work well in tablet mode, well then thanks Captain Obvious. I don't think we needed all this discussion in that case, the sky is blue too. The entire point of the surface, MS entire strategy is that if you need a laptop you can just stand up the surface, flip open the keyboard and voila, that's just a huge point to miss, but you know you can look up the Click commercials where they spend 60 minutes continuously clicking the keyboards onto the surface.

 

[Irishman]

Why? Office 13 has been written with touch in mind, it works incredibly well in that paradigm. Photoshop works incredibly well with a stylus and touch. You sound like someone 5 years ago saying no one would ever write touch based programs for iOS. The market is just being born, in time we will see developers follow along, it's a huge mistake to judge this market today, just as it was for those who judged iOS when it first came out.

Besides its not difficult to use the desktop versions in the least. And I still at least have the choice to run it as a laptop if I wanted to, a very powerful choice.

Being forced to buy an extra $130 keyboard to be able to use XP-vintage programs not written by MS or Adobe is not a win. It's a kludge.

What I'm talking about are the hundreds of small developers who wrote programs people still use, some of which are no longer supporting those titles because they're out of business. What are the odds that this rosey Surface Pro picture you paint will come to pass with them?

I'll calculate it for you! Slim to none.

And comparing this to iPad when it was new is not applicable, as you didn't have people telling you that the real compelling apps were "coming soon"! Apple made sure - because of that walled garden some love to hate - that there were compelling apps that made patently obvious why the iPad was useful.

 

[spinedoc77]

Being forced to buy an extra $130 keyboard to be able to use XP-vintage programs not written by MS or Adobe is not a win. It's a kludge.

What I'm talking about are the hundreds of small developers who wrote programs people still use, some of which are no longer supporting those titles because they're out of business. What are the odds that this rosey Surface Pro picture you paint will come to pass with them?

I'll calculate it for you! Slim to none.

So what? I still have the choice to use the kludgy program, that's a win for me. Some of my medical programs are old XP type programs which I'm forced to use, that takes away a lot of options on the ipad. A lot of companies when faced with the astronomical cost of rewriting all their software will opt to keep the old versions for years, yes this sucks but for the worker caught in this having a windows desktop will be a godsend. Plus who is forcing you to buy a keyboard? Do YOU need to use those xp programs? If you need to use them then you will want a keyboard anyhow, just as if you want to use Pages on the ipad you are going to want a keyboard, I don't understand what your point is?

What you are talking about, the hundreds of small programs which will never be updated to work on anything but windows desktop, this is a strength, not a weakness as you describe. It means people can still run these programs for whatever reason they need to.

As I keep repeating, in the end it's all about choice. If not a single person ever used the desktop on MS products then so what? You can still use it as a "dumb tablet" like the ipad, at that point it just becomes a popularity contest and while Apple has a huge following I think people heavily underestimate Microsoft.