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that's great and all but how about you tell the class your story about when you actually used a piece of software installed on a computer to accomplish tasks in the film biz.
you know, using the computer for what it's designed for.
I'm not going to try and speak as to what MVC has and hasn't done (at this point, it wouldn't matter what he says anyway), but generally speaking, spot on.

It seems like there are a bunch of hardware folks here who can talk about specs and benchmarks all day long but really don't have personal experience with using the applications to make something. Then there's a few actual users who do "make" something but really don't seem to know what they're talking about when it comes to hardware - they resent the change, so they buy into whatever the guy who validates their feelings tells them. Then there are a thousand times more users who aren't wasting their time here whining about the minutia of TB versus PCIe slots because they're getting along just fine actually making stuff.

I see this all the time in "real life"... professional IT guys, who aren't intimately familiar with the software, making poor purchasing decisions because they're strictly going on specs (e.g. dual Xeon CPUs when single-threaded performance is paramount, or high-end Quadro GPUs when the software would be just as happy with a mid-range GTX). On the other end, I see the actual application "users" blaming this or that on CPU or GPU performance, misinterpreting benchmarks and specs, when they don't really even understand what they're spouting off about.

Again, first-hand experience - creative-types typically aren't very interested in computers, and computer geeks typically don't really understand how creative types actually work. It's kind of rare to see actual users of the type of applications being discussed here who are also very knowledgeable about computers.
 
There are advantages of more CPU's.... You realize that both Kontakt, VEP, Logic and other DAW software can utilize more cores, right? Especially Logic works best with as many as possible. There is no sense in saying that multiple CPUs won't be a benefit. Obviously having 12 cores instead of 6 will be better - especially if the clock speed is in the same range on both.

You know what, I think I was still stuck in 2011 when most music/audio software was not optimized for multi-core processing. It would seem much of it has been updated since.
There are reports in the forum-sphere saying that (for example) Kontakt actually works better with multi-processing disabled, and DAW-builders still recommend single hexacores (or 8-cores) as the sweet spot for most setups, but I concede the point. Multi-processor support is here.

And regarding TB - don't get stuck in semantics. Yes TB is "PCI over a wire" but the bandwidth of TB1 and 2 (and the upcoming 3) is still way below the ... what do you want me to call it, so you don't get confused? "logic board card based" PCIe? Everybody knows this. TB is still not up to the task of replacing "old fashioned" PCI.

What do you mean? AFAIK, only PCIe 3.0x16 exceeds ThB's bandwidth (at just under 1GB/s per lane). PCIe 2.0 does 5GT/s per lane, so a typical PCIe2.0(x4) should about 2GB/s, which is actually a little lower than Thunderbolt 1/2 spec.
From a practical POV, only the latest GPU's really utilize PCIe 3.0(x16) speeds, I am not aware of any audio PCIe devices faster than PCIe 2.0(x4). RME's flagship HDSPe MADI FX is still PCIe 1.1 (single lane), as is the UAD-2. I'm pretty sure that goes for ProTools' PCIe cards as well.

I have my reservations about Thunderbolt, but that is primarily about cost and longevity. Oh, and I like to have all my stuff inside the computer. But I don't think of Thunderbolt as technically limiting for audio purposes. Theoretical latency might be a little higher perhaps, but in the real world ThB audio devices seem to perform on par with their PCIe equivalents.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI_Express#PCI_Express_2.0
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunderbolt_(interface)#Thunderbolt_2
http://www.rme-audio.de/en/products/hdspe_madi_fx.php
http://www.uaudio.com/uad-plug-ins/uad-2-pcie.html



EDIT: And regarding CPU's - the problem with nMP not being dual CPU is that it really will lack performance. The nMP I could buy (6-core - for premium price btw - I dont need those stupid dual GPU's - money down the drain) would hardly be faster than the current 2009 6-core I have. SIX YEARS later, Apple don't offer a Mac Pro that is remarkably faster than the 2009 models.

Well, Apple can only stick the latest Xeons in their machines. While it would be nice to have E5v3's, the benchmarks indicate only marginal improvements over the ones in the nMP, IIRC. So the point about the hexacore hardly being any faster is more of an Intel thing.

I don't need and would not to pay for dual GPU's either, nor would I want to fork out big bucks for ThB storage enclosures. When my current cMP needs to be replaced, I'll take a long hard look at equivalent Windows workstations and do the math.

But I remain unconvinced that multi-processor support is a must for audio dudes. And I believe that the industry as a whole will move away from dual-processor workstations anyway, but that is a different story.
 
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What is with the trolling? Flat Five you find it so hard to be civil then don't bother posting. What's with your attitude?
Did I miss something? I can see you just joined the forums a few days ago, but have you actually read the hundred posts by MVC that proceeded this of relentless condescending put-downs? It's like the school-yard bully who pushes everyone around, and then some kid fights back and they're the one who gets sent to the principal's office.

I'm not condoning it on either "side" - I'm trying to avoid sinking to MVC's level myself, but I'll admit sometimes it's really a challenge.
 
Trouble with comparing prices from 4 years ago do not include inflation, cost of implementing new technology vs old.

I mentioned this before, but I’ll say it again: You don’t need to account for inflation. We can go look up what that 2009 hardware sells for TODAY. This is a comparison made today regarding machines still available for purchase today. Both machines could indeed come from the used/refurb market.
 
Show of hands, who here is in film biz?

Personally I have been there more then 25 years, was dicing carrots as a PA for Craft Service and driving an RV to set while still in college.

The #1 Mantra on any production is getting absolute BEST finished product to client at the end of the job, as quickly as possible.

This is true in audio as well; studio or Post. Or in session work as a musician. It's just gotta work. No excuses.
 
[QUOTE/]But I remain unconvinced that multi-processor support is a must for audio dudes. And I believe that the industry as a whole will move away from dual-processor workstations anyway, but that is a different story.[/QUOTE]

Some DAWs would let you heave all of the host-based DSP to one processor and keep a processor "in isolation" from all the background chatter not being used by the DAW or the Core-Audio/DAE whatever stuff. I'm not sure that the multicore can do this sort of thing, or if the OS can keep .db and mdworker kinds of things isolated to only a single core. Those Avid HDX processor cards may not even be around in the next couple years because the computers are getting so powerful. And that would be sad unless they have their own Dante-thing in the pipeline.

There's got to be a good reason why Avid wants people to leave Bluetooth and WiFi turned off during sessions. IDKW. Could this be a case for an A9 to be jammed into these machines for housekeeping? To keep the processor on task with only "what's important" to the creative app in use? I'd really like to be able to get that Pro Tools 11 and Logic X audio latency buffer setting down to 32 for 16 simultaneous tracks of 24-bit audio.

And whatever happened with Logic Node? I mean, Compressor can still be distributed, but ah, maybe that's because it's a GPU task. Now I have to look at Vienna Ensemble PRO for ethernet based VI support.
 
I mentioned this before, but I’ll say it again: You don’t need to account for inflation. We can go look up what that 2009 hardware sells for TODAY. This is a comparison made today regarding machines still available for purchase today. Both machines could indeed come from the used/refurb market.

Its not that you don't need to account for inflation, you don't WANT too. I suppose you assume everyone is going to buy from a used market. Not so. Some prefer to buy brand new and get a full warrantee with additional Apple care rather then 30 days even if that on a used one.

Some may buy a 2009 Mac Pro and think they are getting all Apple genuine parts. Instead of a cheaper flashed PC card or some such. Its sort of like buying a used car. Buyer beware.

Generally even in a used market a used 2013 will still cost a lot more then a 2009 Mac Pro depending on whats included. Newer technology, plus inflation, will cost you more new or used.

But of course, you guys won't do a like for like comparison anyway. That would not fit the agenda.
 
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Says the guy paid in Nvidia cards anonymously left at his doorstep...

I do hope you have concrete proof of MVC doing this, because I'm pretty sure that accusing fellow member on this forum is against the ToS...
 
I do hope you have concrete proof of MVC doing this, because I'm pretty sure that accusing fellow member on this forum is against the ToS...

He's said it himself in other threads. Probably not actually how he gets the cards, but he definitely has cards coming to him from Nvidia.
 
I think the results of direct comparison of Final Cut Pro X performance between Nvidia GPUs(Kepler and Maxwell) and AMD(GCN) would show a lot, and open few minds a bit for some things that are happening here.
 
He's said it himself in other threads. Probably not actually how he gets the cards, but he definitely has cards coming to him from Nvidia.

Just like every reviewer/tech website does... Beside MVC also sells AMD cards, does that make him an AMD shill too?
 
Just like every reviewer/tech website does... Beside MVC also sells AMD cards, does that make him an AMD shill too?
I have gotten pre production cards from both companies, but via 3rd parties.

A place on EBay called "gfsi" has sold me numerous pre pro cards, and they frequently had no idea what they were.

Never gotten a single free card from either Nvidia or AMD.
 
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I'm not going to try and speak as to what MVC has and hasn't done (at this point, it wouldn't matter what he says anyway), but generally speaking, spot on.

It seems like there are a bunch of hardware folks here who can talk about specs and benchmarks all day long but really don't have personal experience with using the applications to make something. Then there's a few actual users who do "make" something but really don't seem to know what they're talking about when it comes to hardware - they resent the change, so they buy into whatever the guy who validates their feelings tells them. Then there are a thousand times more users who aren't wasting their time here whining about the minutia of TB versus PCIe slots because they're getting along just fine actually making stuff.

I see this all the time in "real life"... professional IT guys, who aren't intimately familiar with the software, making poor purchasing decisions because they're strictly going on specs (e.g. dual Xeon CPUs when single-threaded performance is paramount, or high-end Quadro GPUs when the software would be just as happy with a mid-range GTX). On the other end, I see the actual application "users" blaming this or that on CPU or GPU performance, misinterpreting benchmarks and specs, when they don't really even understand what they're spouting off about.

Again, first-hand experience - creative-types typically aren't very interested in computers, and computer geeks typically don't really understand how creative types actually work. It's kind of rare to see actual users of the type of applications being discussed here who are also very knowledgeable about computers.


When I'm using Logic / Pro Tools, it isn't specs related, it is performance related. I've compared the nMP (the base model) with my 2009 machine and they are on par performance wise. Which means for me personally, there is no point to invest in their newest model. And both of them (plus minus 200 bucks) did cost the same at launch.

I used to be a severe hardware geek and transitioned into the creative type. To me, it is ALL about experience, application related performance and how the system works for me, because as you can see with the iphone, Apple's got it right, but that's where they put all their effort into really nowadays.

maciphone.jpg


I think we'd benefit alot from Apple developing an own CPU for their workstation line up.
 
Its not that you don't need to account for inflation, you don't WANT too.

No, its literally that we don’t have to. We don’t actually care about going back in time and using 2009 dollars to buy a new 2009 Mac Pro. We care about how competitive a 2009 Mac Pro is today with a 2013 nMP at today’s prices. The choice we are faced with now uses 2015 dollars, wether we buy a current machine or not. See, I’m not particularly interested in comparing the 2009 Mac Pro in 2009 to the 2013 nMP in 2015. I suppose we could do that, but what is the point. This isn’t 2009. I care about computing solutions in 2015 and beyond.

I suppose you assume everyone is going to buy from a used market. Not so.

Everyone can do what ever they want. I’m not assuming anything. I’m pointing out that a correct price to performance analysis of the two products would be done at today’s prices for both machines. If you automatically don’t want a used machine, then the 2009 Mac Pro, regardless of this type of analysis, is disqualified. You can have good reasons or bad ones for doing that, and that’s entirely up to you, but it doesn’t change the proper way in which to do a price/performance analysis.

Some may buy a 2009 Mac Pro and think they are getting all Apple genuine parts. Instead of a cheaper flashed PC card or some such. Its sort of like buying a used car. Buyer beware.

Of course. And that’s why you can pick up a base model for what, $700-$800 bucks? And if you’re smart, you’d probably want to budget in a fair amount of money to maintain and upgrade the machine, maybe even more than the $800 you paid for it.

Generally even in a used market a used 2013 will still cost a lot more then a 2009 Mac Pro depending on whats included. Newer technology, plus inflation, will cost you more new or used.

Yeah, the list price of the 2013 model new is effected by the changing value of money if we pretend you could sell the same thing in 2009. But see, in computers, there actually isn’t inflation. New hardware, while better, is on average cheaper than old hardware: https://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/CUSR0000SEEE01 or http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/CUSR0000SEEE01?output_view=pct_3mths. Computing has long been a sector of the economy that actually has deflation. This is just one of the reasons why it makes zero sense use 2009 dollars and apply the inflation rate as measured as an average across the entire market (which would still be very small and not really change things much anyway, since the average inflation rate since 2009 is just 1.45%, and would add less than 10% cost even if we did this silly thing you’re suggesting, but I digress). We are talking specifically about computers, we might as well use the inflation rate that applies to them and not things like houses, energy, food, etc. But that assumes somehow we have some sort of magic that could take us back to 2009, buy the old Mac Pro then, not use it for 6 years, then decide if we want the 2013 nMP or to start using that 2009 cMP, and if we don’t want that 2009 MP we’d have to then go back in time and return said 2009 cMP. Seriously, this desire to use inflation makes less than zero sense.

But of course, you guys won't do a like for like comparison anyway. That would not fit the agenda.

Ah yes, your concluding remark is to attack our motive. How cute. I don’t particularly have any agenda here, other than giving myself a small break from work and letting myself think about something else for a while.
 
As far as the update of the nMP is concerned, I think Apple still holds out to try to sell as many machines as they can of the old model since sales probably haven't been nowhere near the cMP models and will put out an update in October next year.
 
When I'm using Logic / Pro Tools, it isn't specs related, it is performance related. I've compared the nMP (the base model) with my 2009 machine and they are on par performance wise. Which means for me personally, there is no point to invest in their newest model. And both of them (plus minus 200 bucks) did cost the same at launch.

I used to be a severe hardware geek and transitioned into the creative type. To me, it is ALL about experience, application related performance and how the system works for me, because as you can see with the iphone, Apple's got it right, but that's where they put all their effort into really nowadays.

maciphone.jpg


I think we'd benefit alot from Apple developing an own CPU for their workstation line up.
You're comparing some geek bench scores between an iPhone and a MacBook. They're only comparable as a geek bench score. That doesn't translate to actual application use. That you interpret the benchmark results as a reason for Apple to develop its own workstation CPU is exactly the kind of "misunderstandings" I was referring to.

You might have been a hardware geek at one time, but it sounds like you're much more a creative professional now. ;-)

If the nMP doesn't offer your workflow significant performance gains over your existing system, then no reason to upgrade yet - lucky you! If you're finding impediments in your workflow, maybe t's not related to the CPU but some other aspect of your setup.
 
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You can't compare Geekbench scores between two different platforms because of Floating Point performance in different architectures. Scores may be similar, but the real world performance will be different.
 
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You're comparing some geek bench scores between an iPhone and a MacBook. They're only comparable as a geek bench score. That doesn't translate to actual application use. That you interpret the benchmark results as a reason for Apple to develop its own workstation CPU is exactly the kind of "misunderstandings" I was referring to.

You might have been a hardware geek at one time, but it sounds like you're much more a creative professional now. ;-)

If the nMP doesn't offer your workflow significant performance gains over your existing system, then no reason to upgrade yet - lucky you! If you're finding impediments in your workflow, maybe t's not related to the CPU but some other aspect of your setup.

No I just wanna upgrade and for me personally, as a self-employed person working in the music industry, Apple has nothing to offer, to stress this again, for me personally, and I try to keep it as non-biased and personal-referenced as possible to not offend anyone. This is how I feel about it.
 
As far as the update of the nMP is concerned, I think Apple still holds out to try to sell as many machines as they can of the old model since sales probably haven't been nowhere near the cMP models and will put out an update in October next year.
I don't see the logic in that. If it's selling so poorly because it's old technology, what's the point of holding out? Why wouldn't they release a new model that would sell more?

Your presumption that the nMP hasn't sold anywhere near as well as the cMP 5.1 is interesting. Curious why you think that?
 
You can't compare Geekbench scores between two different platforms because of Floating Point performance in different architectures. Scores may be similar, but the real world performance will be different.

Right but it is an accomplishment ain't it? Or do we want to downplay everything so nothing can be really compared and critized, and boil it all down to its own individual experience?
 
No I just wanna upgrade and for me personally, as a self-employed person working in the music industry, Apple has nothing to offer, to stress this again, for me personally, and I try to keep it as non-biased and personal-referenced as possible to not offend anyone. This is how I feel about it.
No worries, we're just having a reasonable discussion. If you don't want to continue, that's fine. I don't think I'd be alone in saying I'm confused... you want to upgrade, but it's not the CPU that is the problem, it's that you want a cMP-like tower with expansion slots and Apple doesn't offer that. Yeah, that's a drag. I guess you're going to have to switch to a Windows PC. Bummer.
 
No worries, we're just having a reasonable discussion. If you don't want to continue, that's fine. I don't think I'd be alone in saying I'm confused... you want to upgrade, but it's not the CPU that is the problem, it's that you want a cMP-like tower with expansion slots and Apple doesn't offer that. Yeah, that's a drag. I guess you're going to have to switch to a Windows PC. Bummer.

No the performance in my applications for the buck is underwhelming .
 
Right but it is an accomplishment ain't it? Or do we want to downplay everything so nothing can be really compared and critized, and boil it all down to its own individual experience?
Yeah, it's pretty amazing how fast those mobile chips have gotten. But it seems like you're trying to have it both ways - you suggest that because it's impressive in a phone, that would somehow translate to an MP. But when it's pointed out that it doesn't translate, you suggest we're just being argumentative.

And I don't understand how any of that relates to "individual experience". Someday ARM chips may very well replace x86 at the workstation level, but the ARM vs x86 architecture isn't the performance bottleneck... any current CPU architecture is going to run into the same issues of increasing CPU performance... it's science, not a personal opinion.
 
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