Will there be a new Mac Pro in 2015?

[deconstruct60]

....
Regarding the ports, you pretty much summed it up. I would get rid of the HDMI but I guess some people would need them. Specially since DP 1.3 will be here later rather then sooner. But since AMD only has HDMI 1.4a for now as well I really don't know if it does any good.
Don't really count on a second SSD, much less M.2, they won't go for it.

HDMI does good because there are monitors with HDMI inputs on them. Apple isn't really in the monitor business, so the connections needed are largely not what appears on Apple's "monitor". If engaging a reference monitor that is a regular high end TV then HDMI is the norm. That's actually what people are going to see, not some mega bucks monitor that you get from a "pro only supplier" boutique supplier. Similarly, most modern projectors have HDMI inputs. HDMI is deployed in far larger numbers than miniDisplayPort and USB Type C. It is useful because it is what folks have available. The Mac only market is a bit skewed away from HDMI, but most likely even "Mac" people have some stuff with HDMI inputs on it.

Thinking about it, if Apple doesn't want to provision the second internal PCIe SSD then perhaps the SSD and one of the TB v2 controllers can just swap places.

x4 PCIe v3 TB v3 ; new "even faster" TB
x4 PCIe v3 new "even faster" SSD.

x4 PCIe v2 TB v2 (provisioned from PCH chipset).

The two x4 bundles from CPU don't need a switch so can easily be routed. Will need new route from PCH to I/O board on that connector though.


So can port configuration can go

4 Type A USB 3.0
2 TB v2 ( miniDisplayPort physical )
2 TB v3 ( USB Type C physical )
2 HDMI ( 1.4a or maybe 2.0 if get HDCP "big bag of hurt" sorted out)
same audio in/out.


4 legacy USB ports so folks won't complain need dongles for USB gear they already own. Keep them Type A so that start trend of Type C including TB on Macs ( the MacBook early 2014 will become a legacy oddball in the future ).

Aggregated TB bandwidth 40 + 20 = 60 . Previous Mac Pro 3 * 20 = 60 . So it is a minimally a wash, but at least haven't falling into backslider status. [ newer high I/O bandwidth RAID devices will be happier on the one TB v3 controller than old; so probably pragmatically incrementally better than current MP on total aggregate. ] Again have dongle-less compatibility for currently owned TB v1-v2 devices ( won't need new $30-40 cable to make them work ). 1-2 legacy Apple TB Display docking stations would just work. Likewise for folks with 2 miniDP monitors, they can hook-up without adapters (if don't have any TB v2 devices). Having TB v2 and TB v3 ports on the Mac Pro is somewhat like when Apple had FW 400 and 800 ports on the Mac Pro ( 2006-2008 and Mac G5 ).

For folks who "hate" TB and love USB there are 6 USB 3.0+ ports as the TB v3 controller independently provisions USB 3.0 gen 2. So a "new and better" on that front too.

2 HDMI in part so that don't have any "raw" miniDisplayPort sockets. ( Folks won't confuse them for TB v2 sockets ). If have 2-4 3rd party monitors more than likely at least two have a HDMI input port. Can hook up with hogging a TB port. The gap between DP v1.2a and HDMI 2.0 is basically firmware to do HDCP v2.2 AMD (and Apple ? as needs hooks in the core OS graphics stack) will probably fix that later. That is fine if the Mac Pro update is coming later also.

If they swap 2 mDP + HDMI for 2 HDMI ports then technically there should be be some "back panel" room for some digital only input (or output), but I doubt Apple is doing to do much past what is easily supported by Intel's chipset audio and consistent with the rest of the Mac line up. So the audio in/out will stay the same.

 

[koyoot]

dec. I absolutely love your idea of number, and types of ports. That is exactly what is needed here.

 

[deconstruct60]

...
I have no idea about what they might do about the PCIe lanes / thunderbolt 3 / GPU part connundrum. It is however likely to be pragmatic and unsurprising. Or maybe they'll shorten the Trash can form factor and only have an "ash tray" with two CPUs and some RAM, on 3 sides (CPU CPU RAM), and only have external GPUs connected over Thunderbolt 3 like the spec allows???? Does anyone knows if two CPU means more PCI lanes available?

Probably will start with fewer TB v3 ports than there are TB v2 ports on the current model. Later around the era of the Xeon E5 v5 + its chipset ( around 2017 ) or one after that could go back up to 6 TB v3 (or v4) ports if they wanted. If they keep around 2 TB v2 ports, then 2 v3 + 2 v2 is probably enough for most folks.

External only GPUs is not even remotely going to happen. Apple is going to sell a computer system that boots and works out. There is no monitor/keyboard on MP or mini but they just work out of the box. They are not going to sell "barebones ... just add a few more critical pieces" sub-systems. I don't think Intel has said that external GPU support is required to get TB certification. It is far more likely that it is optional within some narrow OS+driver support. If Apple doesn't want to do it, then Intel isn't going to make them do it. Windows 10+ probably will with certain cards.

Two E5 2600's get more PCIe v3 lanes but it doesn't "buy" out with constant space. Not really going to get 4 more DIMM slots for the 2nd CPU. The root cause problem is far more so the PCH chipset mismatch with the current top end PCIe SSDs and Apple's "SATA is done" policy. That will uncork when get to Xeon E5 v5 in the future. Apple's objectives are better lined up with what Intel is providing in the mainstream desktop space in late 2015. Not surprising since that is the overwhelming bulk of Apple's Mac sales.

If we're dreaming they might go CPU, GPU and a XEON phi instead of the headless GPU (though I don't know who or what takes advantage of the phi).

Phi has an advantage if you have already deployed your HPC application on a x86 supercomputer. It is primarily a vastly smaller supercomputer of what had access to 6-10 years ago at the top half of the range. The Phi that are on a separate card are running their own OS kernel. Apple isn't going to buy into that set up for an embedded card that they design and have contract built solely for themselves. Besides OS X has problems keeping up low double digit numbers of cores. Very high core count, NUMA systems requires work that Apple probably isn't going to put into OS X. Apple isn't chasing the "headless", "probably multi user", computational box market at all.

GPU twins lets Apple buy components in larger (and more predictable ) volume and they can mostly just use the same design for both cards ( less R&D). Phi is about the opposite on both counts.

 

[ActionableMango]

Here are a few examples (on YouTube) that show off some of this amazing talent that home PC builders are putting together using PETG Tubing (it's a much cleaner look) that Apple can put together:

To each his own, but to me, every single one of those screams gaudy "look at me" gamer/attention seeking crowd. Glow in the dark tubes, illuminated fans, plastic windows to show of your warez...it's like imported lowered cars with giant wings, neon tube license plate holder, and glowing ground effects. How does that help a professional meet a deadline or get his work done?

IMHO, Apple is significantly more "elegant and refined", than "showy and trick".

Also, there are quiet air cooling solutions, so I'll take those any day over even a tiny chance of a liquid leak, condensation, etc. occurring in my computer.

 

[ManuelGomes]

Stacc, you are correct. I was thinking like you said and wrote the other way around, cores are at the fullest but mem was capped. And rightly so I might add. The extra pins would probably hurt more than help, extra power consumption, and since compression exists no need for the 384b.
But you argument of the mem size is incorrect, that's what usually happens but look at nVidia and the 970. And the trouble it got them :-(

dec, cool setup. I did mention 1 SSD and 1 TB3 controller out of the CPU before, but didn't consider your brilliant idea of the extra TB2 controller. Good job, that would certainly make the transition easier, and sort of solve the port problem.
I'm not sure how performance would be on the TB2 ports, since they are connected to the PCH, and DMI bandwidth would be fought over by TB2, GbE x2, WiFi, Bluetooth, USB and audio (or not). Good thing nothing else is used.
I guess there could be a bottleneck when large file transfers would be going on.

Yes, you can hardly get 2 E5 2600 in separate boards, not doable. you could get the extra PCIe 3 lanes but it's an impossible task. Apple will not alter the design anytime soon I imagine. No 2 CPUs, no less GPUs, and surely no Phi in my opinion, it's not their war.

 

[Stacc]

The combination of thunderbolt 2/displayport and thunderbolt 3/USB-C is a good idea. This could minimize the usual grumbling when Apple drops old ports and goes to a new one (see Macbook, cd drives, etc).

Unfortunately, it wouldn't be surprising to see Apple just replace the existing thunderbolt/displayport ports with USB-C with thunderbolt 3. They would just share the available bandwidth, and compatibility with existing thunderbolt v2 and displayport could be handled using a passive adapter. As annoying as it is, Apple likes to do this kind of thing, especially if they were to standardize usb-c/thunderbolt 3 across most of the mac lineup this fall.

 

[ManuelGomes]

Mango, those are my thought exactly.
Don't get me wrong Punk, if it works for you cool. The issue with the monitors is a turn off indeed.
I was never into the show off thing, I wouldn't put a neon on a rig in a million years. The same for water!!
Still, some people enjoy it and hey, there's room for everything.
I got tired of building my own rigs exactly because of the hardware brands coming up with ridiculous motherboard names, color schemes, colorful drawings, whatever would call the attention of the DIY people. Even Intel went that route with the skull on their Extreme line of mobos, which I owned as well. Man, that was ridiculous.
If you want to build a sober and powerful PC you hardly find the parts that are not screaming "flash build" to put it mildly.
So, Apple might not build the most powerful machines (they don't) but they sure are nice, well built, beautiful and quiet which is exactly what I need and prefer right now.
The bragging rights thing is in the past, too old for that I guess.

 

[ManuelGomes]

If the MacBook Pro refresh, that some expect still this year although they were recently updated, will come with USB-C too, that could be a sign for the nMP.
Also, a new retina iMac is coming, we'll what surprises it reveals.

 

[AidenShaw]

Does anyone knows if two CPU means more PCI lanes available?

The v2 and v3 CPUs have 40 PCIe 3.0 lanes per controller - yes, the dual socket systems have twice as many lanes.

 

[displayator]

@deconstruct60 and @AidenShaw thanks for the precisions and details.

So in theory if they wanted to go dual SSD + dual GPU 8x + 6 TB3 lanes without multiplexing, they could if they were running dual socket. What about a dual GPU part (Fiji x2 / Fury x2) on the same side and the two CPU sockets on the other sides? Would there be graphics part that are cool enough to fit in the TDP budget and still be worth it? It would obviously constrain the CPU max frequency and thread core count.

My idea for the ash tray was that they had an integrated GPU, but after double checking, there is no E5 1600/2600 v3 chip with a graphics chip, so there goes my idea. Plus the height would have been the same, as the ECC ram sticks are quite tall anyway.

 

[Hog Milanese]

My guess at this point: They're going to release a refreshed nMP alongside new USB-C 4k/5k displays. Maybe at the Fall/iPhone event.

 

[Stacc]

@deconstruct60 and @AidenShaw thanks for the precisions and details.

So in theory if they wanted to go dual SSD + dual GPU 8x + 6 TB3 lanes without multiplexing, they could if they were running dual socket. What about a dual GPU part (Fiji x2 / Fury x2) on the same side and the two CPU sockets on the other sides? Would there be graphics part that are cool enough to fit in the TDP budget and still be worth it? It would obviously constrain the CPU max frequency and thread core count.

My idea for the ash tray was that they had an integrated GPU, but after double checking, there is no E5 1600/2600 v3 chip with a graphics chip, so there goes my idea. Plus the height would have been the same, as the ECC ram sticks are quite tall anyway.

Don't expect significant form factor changes. The current design is brand new. Adding dual CPUs is not possible without a redesign. For GPU discussions, read back over the last couple pages. Again, expect a dual card design like the current form factor.

My guess at this point: They're going to release a refreshed nMP alongside new USB-C 4k/5k displays. Maybe at the Fall/iPhone event.

Usually Macs don't share the stage with the iPhone. I expect Apple to announce a refreshed Mac lineup around the time of El Capitan's release, probably October. Intel has enough new technology coming out between now and then that they could do a fairly significant update to most of the lineup.

 

[Zarniwoop]

My guess at this point: They're going to release a refreshed nMP alongside new USB-C 4k/5k displays. Maybe at the Fall/iPhone event.

That is my guess too, but when they'll release El Capitan. Three displays, two new retinas (21,5" and 27") and old 27". They'll drop the price of the old 27". And maybe they'll introduce Freesync or similar tech to all models.

The following scenario might not happen, but what if they drop the lower spec Mac Pro and replace it with Mac. Same form factor, different color and with desktop cpu + single R9 380 (or cto Fury) and 1Tb Fusion Drive. Starting price at 1500 USD / €. Mac Pro's would start with 6 core (cto 8 core) and D510 (cto D800, Fiji based). Mac Pro's starting price would be somewhere between current nMP entry and better model.

I can dream, right?

 

[zephonic]

The following scenario might not happen, but what if they drop the lower spec Mac Pro and replace it with Mac. Same form factor, different color and with desktop cpu + single R9 380 (or cto Fury) and 1Tb Fusion Drive. Starting price at 1500 USD / €. Mac Pro's would start with 6 core (cto 8 core) and D510 (cto D800, fiji based). Mac Pro's starting price would be somewhere between current nMP entry and better model.

Ah, yes. The elusive xMac. A firm forum favorite.

 

[AidenShaw]

...The current design is brand new...

How does a design shown in June 2013 count as "brand new". Sounds more like "years old" to me.

 

[koyoot]

I must say. 4K display from Apple would be terrific addition to Mac Pro powered by Grenada GPUs IMO .

 

[askunk]

I think that a unibody enclosure such as the aluminium one of the nMP could be extruded a bit more and keep the design, while having more space for a second CPU.

The problem, I think, lies in two main factors:

1) the cost of two CPUs would perhaps raise the bar a bit too much for a base model
2) I think 2 CPUs + 2 GPUs will generate too much heat for the thermal core to keep the fan silent. After all the marketing on how quiet is the nMP, they wouldn't go this way. Who knows if the Broadwell-EP generation is efficient enough to reduce temperature to fit in?

Having said that, I will spend the rest of my days dreaming about a 2CPUs nMP...

 

[PunkNugget]

To each his own, but to me, every single one of those screams gaudy "look at me" gamer/attention seeking crowd. Glow in the dark tubes, illuminated fans, plastic windows to show of your warez...it's like imported lowered cars with giant wings, neon tube license plate holder, and glowing ground effects. How does that help a professional meet a deadline or get his work done?

IMHO, Apple is significantly more "elegant and refined", than "showy and trick".

Also, there are quiet air cooling solutions, so I'll take those any day over even a tiny chance of a liquid leak, condensation, etc. occurring in my computer.

LOL !!! You obviously have no clue about water cooling (which by the way has been used for 15+ years). I've personally been using water cooling for over 7 years and I've never had any issues.

Now where you're talking about the "...imported lowered cars with giant wings, neon tube license plate holder, and glowing ground effects." I can understand that is not for you. All apple has to do is use clear tubing and clear distilled water or white tubing. In fact they can use chrome plated tubing to give it more of a professional, industrial look. In fact, they don't have to show anything off at all and keep it hidden without using any display windows.

Now in regards to your last comment: "How does that help a professional meet a deadline or get his work done?" Water cooled systems run cooler, quieter and you're able to clock the CPUs, RAM & GPUs to much faster and safer levels for the life of the system, to gain the most performance out them. THAT'S how they meet better deadlines to get your work done faster and I'll take THAT any day over any current Mac Pro system out there; which I have... and my system (still after 3 years) is faster than the current Mac Pro. What bothers me, is Apple could easily create a machine that could meet the demand of the Graphic Design and/or Video Editiing professional, but has chosen to go another route. By the way, I also can upgrade my current machine to the newest Titan X's and it will be even faster, when it comes to rendering and deadlines that need to be met.

 

[handsome pete]

What bothers me, is Apple could easily create a machine that could meet the demand of the Graphic Design and/or Video Editiing professional, but has chosen to go another route.

I agree with your sentiment, but the nMP is perfectly fine for pretty much any graphic design and video editing task you throw at it.

 

[ActionableMango]

LOL !!! You obviously have no clue about water cooling (which by the way has been used for 15+ years). I've personally been using water cooling for over 7 years and I've never had any issues.

You are correct, I have no experience with water cooling whatsoever.

Apple does have experience with liquid cooling though, and personally I wouldn't call it a success. I'm sure they could do better if they tried it again, but an electric fan is cheap and simple, plus they seem to have come up with a silent solution that keeps the components cool.

 

[JesterJJZ]

I agree with your sentiment, but the nMP is perfectly fine for pretty much any graphic design and video editing task you throw at it.

Correction, it's fine for anyone starting from scratch. If you already have a workstation setup, the cost of switching everything over to thunderbolt comes in at double the cost of the nMP itself. I priced it all out myself a few months ago when I debated switching when my 5,1 was in for a repair. It was going to cost almost 9k to get myself up and running to level I am at right now. nMP, expansion chassis, TB raid array, additional drive tower, Bluray Burner…And what do I get? A lot of external boxes I need to put somewhere and plug in verses my one 5,1 tower and one SAS Raid tower.

Making a "workstation" out of the nMP is a complete mess, what was Apple thinking is my thought every time I see the nMP…

Some people like it and it works for them, great, keep it around. But for those that need the power, Apple has basically told us to switch to windows or build a hack.

 

[deconstruct60]

That is my guess too, but when they'll release El Capitan. Three displays, two new retinas (21,5" and 27") and old 27". They'll drop the price of the old 27". And maybe they'll introduce Freesync or similar tech to all models.

Doubtful they'd keep the "old" 27" display docking station when introducing two new display docking stations. Price reduction even more doubtful. When added in the 27" TB model next to the 27" DP model the DP model stuck to the same price. They connected to different computers (e.g., until the Mac Pro got TB then DP model was kept around. After that .. it disappeared. ). The 30" was dropped when the 27" DP model showed up.

Two thunderbolt display docking stations at the same size? Probably not. Most of the older Mac wouldn't be able to drive 27" Retina (presuming 5K based), but I suspect Apple probably has pegged most of the folks who want one has bought one of the older monitors. It is been around since 2011. If the iMac 27" line up goes all 5K then even slimmer chances as there is no panel volume to back up the 'old' screen.

I don't see Apple doing this in the Fall though. If Apple moves the iMac i to most all "Retina" in the Fall then all the panel volume will go to filling those systems. After Apple has caught up to orders and is in stable state then there will be room for secondary display sales ( to add incrementally higher volume). That probably occurs later.

There is Retina large panel stuff in 10.11 but that is probably primarily for the iMac; not a docking station.

 

[deconstruct60]

...
I'm not sure how performance would be on the TB2 ports, since they are connected to the PCH, and DMI bandwidth would be fought over by TB2, GbE x2, WiFi, Bluetooth, USB and audio (or not). Good thing nothing else is used.
I guess there could be a bottleneck when large file transfers would be going on.

The PCH is being fought over with the default boot SSD now in the current system. Thunderbolt 2 isn't going to make the traffic any higher. It is a swap (TB for SSD ), so unloading at least as much as loading.

The SATA on the PCH is completely unloaded so the DMI contention shouldn't be all that high in most contexts ( read off disk and push to network , read from network push to disk ). Would need high inbound (or outbound) for multiple ports at the same time.

I would expect some funky boot issues ( firmware to spin up both old and new TB controllers ) or SSD ACHI/NVMe issues hiccups with the CPU's PCIe hub as potential hiccups more so than PCH contention. Most TB controllers are attached to the PCH. Apple using CPU lanes is more out of the mainstream of the implementations.

 

[PunkNugget]

I agree with your sentiment, but the nMP is perfectly fine for pretty much any graphic design and video editing task you throw at it.

Not true for most that use Premiere Pro and have to render large files that can take hours instead of half the time with a Dual CPU and Multiple GPU config.

 

[PunkNugget]

You are correct, I have no experience with water cooling whatsoever.

Apple does have experience with liquid cooling though, and personally I wouldn't call it a success. I'm sure they could do better if they tried it again, but an electric fan is cheap and simple, plus they seem to have come up with a silent solution that keeps the components cool.

Well you need qualified pros to put that together. Apple needs to learn from companies like:

www.originpc.com
www.digitalstormonline.com
www.maingear.com
www.falconnorthwest.com
https://www.pugetsystems.com/nav/deluge/L2/customize.php

so there's quite a few out there making it happen and I don't hear any disasters that they're facing, because you're dealing with people that take their time making it work right the first time…

Again, I believe if apple had some reliable assembly people, they could really do this right for their towered systems. They could actually do the American thing and bring the work to us and have Americans build it.