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Will you spend more for Mac native games vs cheaper Windows versions?
- Thread starter Dirtyharry50
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The Mac price for Deus Ex on launch was (and still is right now) cheaper than the cost of the PC version on Steam. Remember the Mac version comes with all the DLC and pre order bonus content so you need to add up the cost of the game and all DLC to compare them. So it's not the best one to use as an argument for Mac games costing more...
There is a huge difference between OpenGL ES (the very basic OpenGL for mobile devices like iOS) and OpenGL 4.0 which is the latest DX11 equivalent version of OpenGL that will be making it's first appearance in Mountain Lion.
OpenGL does have most of the features of DX but as DX is designed just for gaming and is used on a console compared to OpenGL being a more generic graphics library the problems in getting high performance in a game which was designed for a different graphics API are not simple and can trip up good programmers. It's is a little hyperbolic to say OpenGL is not an issue at all and all the issues are crappy programmers. If you walk a mile in a programmers shoes on any games development on any platform you will soon learn their is no such thing as a graphics API not being an issue in some way
You do realise the Mac versions of games by Feral (and likely a few others) are native ports? The game is rewritten to compile and build on Mac OS X using native tools like Xcode etc. They don't run in some kind of weird emulation or virtual machine.
Thanks we are glad some people noticed, I thought I would mention with digital stores "flash sales" from all the Mac games companies happen more often if you keep an eye out. For example right now a digital download of Mac Batman Arkham Asylum is only $20 (50% RRP) at MacUpdate.
Edwin
Thanks for pointing out the included DLC, but I was not talking about Steam, the street price for the game is really low. In Finland I have never in my life seen any Mac retail games for sale, but you can find PC and console games in every grocery store (and no, they are not pirated versions). In most of these stores Deus Ex HR is much cheaper than the Steam price. If Mac games were sold in stores more openly the situation would be the same. But I guess there is no market for it in here.
No problem
As the console market is 100s of times bigger than the Mac market deep discounting and making up for the very low margins by volume and secondary sales is not as effective as you don't have the same game playing install base as a console market does.
Digital sales where you don't have the costs of manufacturing and moving the stock to the stores it is much easier to have flash sales. If you are looking for a good deal I would follow all the Mac digital resellers and keep your eye out for some deals. Mosts weeks if you look about you will find a game or two discounted by 50% or more. They might not be as easy to find but they exist
Edwin
The Mac price for Deus Ex on launch was (and still is right now) cheaper than the cost of the PC version on Steam. Remember the Mac version comes with all the DLC and pre order bonus content so you need to add up the cost of the game and all DLC to compare them. So it's not the best one to use as an argument for Mac games costing more...
There is a huge difference between OpenGL ES (the very basic OpenGL for mobile devices like iOS) and OpenGL 4.0 which is the latest DX11 equivalent version of OpenGL that will be making it's first appearance in Mountain Lion.
OpenGL does have most of the features of DX but as DX is designed just for gaming and is used on a console compared to OpenGL being a more generic graphics library the problems in getting high performance in a game which was designed for a different graphics API are not simple and can trip up good programmers. It's is a little hyperbolic to say OpenGL is not an issue at all and all the issues are crappy programmers. If you walk a mile in a programmers shoes on any games development on any platform you will soon learn their is no such thing as a graphics API not being an issue in some way
You do realise the Mac versions of games by Feral (and likely a few others) are native ports? The game is rewritten to compile and build on Mac OS X using native tools like Xcode etc. They don't run in some kind of weird emulation or virtual machine.
Thanks we are glad some people noticed, I thought I would mention with digital stores "flash sales" from all the Mac games companies happen more often if you keep an eye out. For example right now a digital download of Mac Batman Arkham Asylum is only $20 (50% RRP) at MacUpdate.
Edwin
Just keep doing what you guys are doing over a Feral
Any chance for a digital version of Fable?
Fingers crossed for more real time strategy games
Maybe The Lord of the Rings: The Battle for Middle-Earth as a Feral Legends title? Or Medieval II: Total War?
Any chance for a digital version of Fable?
Fingers crossed for more real time strategy games
Fable - Yes
RTS - Well the next one we have coming is Empire Total War later this summer.
Regarding the OP: depends.
I enjoy playing games natively on MacOSX and will even sacrifice some frames to do it. However I am well versed in Windows gaming (on my MBP) and if I could save a substantial amount, I'd probably play it on Windows. Laptops are challenged anyway, so in some cases, it might come down to maximizing frames on Windows.
I enjoy playing games natively on MacOSX and will even sacrifice some frames to do it. However I am well versed in Windows gaming (on my MBP) and if I could save a substantial amount, I'd probably play it on Windows. Laptops are challenged anyway, so in some cases, it might come down to maximizing frames on Windows.
no... same as Lion... OpenGL 2.1 compatibility mode and then a Core mode that is OpenGL 3.2
That's what I thought... But I'm trying to figure out what Edwin was implying. Maybe it's coming?
He is just discussing what exists and how they compare, not what is currently available on OSX.
Simple Answer is NO, i will not pay the Apple Tax for games, i will purchase through steam, and if it has an apple native version, then so be it, but most of the time i game in bootcamp anyway.
To many games are being sold as "Mac" Native, when they are just the PC version cranked out with some form of emulation layer, this is easy money for the mac publisher, they license the game for "conversion", just tweak wineskin or some other wrapper, call it Mac native and then release what turns out to be a sub par experience, (See Dragon Age:Origins for a perfect example of how NOT to do a mac release)
The flip side of that is Blizzard or Valve, Mac native, from the ground up.. on the SAME DISC/Downloadable from Steam for the SAME PRICE as the PC versions.
But, unless people vote with there wallets and stop buying the overpriced tat from the Apple Market place, then the prices are here to stay.
To many games are being sold as "Mac" Native, when they are just the PC version cranked out with some form of emulation layer, this is easy money for the mac publisher, they license the game for "conversion", just tweak wineskin or some other wrapper, call it Mac native and then release what turns out to be a sub par experience, (See Dragon Age:Origins for a perfect example of how NOT to do a mac release)
The flip side of that is Blizzard or Valve, Mac native, from the ground up.. on the SAME DISC/Downloadable from Steam for the SAME PRICE as the PC versions.
But, unless people vote with there wallets and stop buying the overpriced tat from the Apple Market place, then the prices are here to stay.
Originally Posted by edddeduck
There is a huge difference between OpenGL ES (the very basic OpenGL for mobile devices like iOS) and OpenGL 4.0 which is the latest DX11 equivalent version of OpenGL that will be making it's first appearance in Mountain Lion.
its possible he has inside info somewhere about something that Apple is talking about adding in a future update, but what I currently have in the Mountain Lion GM is the same 3.2 that was in Lion. I doubt we'll have 4 at launch.
4.0 won't be at launch unless I missed something and I don't have any special knowledge however looking at the progression of OpenGL support and newer cards coming I think partial support for OpenGL 4.0 will arrive during Mountain Lion's lifetime. I based this off the fact that 3.2 is fully supported on most modern cards and 3.3 is mostly supported. This only leaves OGL 4.0 and above left.
Either way my point was more replying to this comment.
I was trying to make the point OpenGL on the Mac is not as feature complete (yet) as the PC with DX11 so citing "crappy programmers" and using iOS (which has a super simple OpenGL) as the logic was a little flawed. I did not mean to kick off some OpenGL 4 rumour
Edwin
I won't spent more money, but I also won't support anyone but Valve for gaming anymore. So I think I'm safe.
I also can see Mac overtaking Windows in gaming soon. Valve is going pro-Linux after seeing W8, and Linux uses openGL as well. Sure Linux gaming will be number 1 but W8 seems like it'll be just an afterthought.
Valve already knows how to use openGL properly, I don't get any huge improvements playing CS:S on W7. So of course I ended up completely removing it :].
I also can see Mac overtaking Windows in gaming soon. Valve is going pro-Linux after seeing W8, and Linux uses openGL as well. Sure Linux gaming will be number 1 but W8 seems like it'll be just an afterthought.
Valve already knows how to use openGL properly, I don't get any huge improvements playing CS:S on W7. So of course I ended up completely removing it :].
That's a little sad as it means you will be missing out on most of the AAA Mac game market
Windows uses DirectX which is also used on the 360 console. The other two consoles do not use OpenGL for any modern console game. So from a game publishers point of view making a Windows version is easier and will have more customers than a Linux one. It's the same reason why the Mac has less games, it's harder to port them and there is a smaller user base.
I think it will take a lot of work for any Linux distribution taking over from Windows as the main revenue stream. It might happen but it will take over a decade of growth of Linux as a normal (not technical) home PC.
Edwin
That's a little sad as it means you will be missing out on most of the AAA Mac game market
Windows uses DirectX which is also used on the 360 console. The other two consoles do not use OpenGL for any modern console game. So from a game publishers point of view making a Windows version is easier and will have more customers than a Linux one. It's the same reason why the Mac has less games, it's harder to port them and there is a smaller user base.
I think it will take a lot of work for any Linux distribution taking over from Windows as the main revenue stream. It might happen but it will take over a decade of growth of Linux as a normal (not technical) home PC.
Edwin
Well like I said, I won't be buying non-valve games anytime soon. And to me, a AAA title means nothing if it can't keep my attention long enough to play it... and the last PC/Mac game that was able to do that was HL2.
What I meant to originally say is that in Valve's support Linux will be on top with OS X second. I wasn't taking into consideration the other developers because they don't interest me, that was my mistake
. I completely agree with you about Linux not taking over Windows as the main revenue stream, there's no exposure to Linux for that to happen at all. I think it's superior, cost effective and even user friendly now, but nobody knows about it.
I was trying to make the point OpenGL on the Mac is not as feature complete (yet) as the PC with DX11 so citing "crappy programmers" and using iOS (which has a super simple OpenGL) as the logic was a little flawed. I did not mean to kick off some OpenGL 4 rumour
When I said crappy programmers I was more referring to those who either just hack things together until they work; stealing code snippets from all over the internet. I've run into way too many of these people in my time. Thus they don't understand or have the knowledge to understand everything that it does and assumes they can integrate it together easily. And B those who come from the windows programming world, know how to program Direct X but try to make Mac programming look and feel just like Windows development. Sure it can be done, but there are some fundamental differences you have to deal with, OpenGL being one of them. Unfortunately due to time constraints, it is often faster to take something that already works, and just crowbar it into XCode and make it work. Will it work? Sure. Will it work well? Not always.
Now don't get me wrong, there are some phenomenal developers, look at the code that is out there. Anything by Blizzard, great stuff. Feral does an awesome job of porting. Even ID software, while not for the Mac, did a great job of porting. It can be done; just due to time, money, and knowledge constraints it is often done poorly.
That was the point I was making when someone said that they won't buy Mac games because they are often more buggy. Well, they are buggy because people aren't taking the time to do it right; often rushed to market to make a quick buck. I simplified it down to crappy programmers, when it may not be the programmers fault, it could be the management's fault for not giving them time to do it right.
I only own one or two Windows games one of which I keep for legal reasons so I can play it in OS X using SCUMMVM. The game? Curse of Monkey Island. The other was Halo until I found a physical copy for the Mac and bought the update for Intel Macs.
All of the other games I own are on OS X including the GTA trilogy. I try to get physical copies if possible and will divert to the App store for other gaming gems that never seen the shelves.
All of the other games I own are on OS X including the GTA trilogy. I try to get physical copies if possible and will divert to the App store for other gaming gems that never seen the shelves.
I get your point and I cannot disagree with the reasoning in fact I agree, a lot of the "I don't buy Mac games" has been caused in the past by poor ports.
I just felt I had to qualify I that I did not agree that everyone did crappy ports after all I have spent most of the last 10 years now trying to make Mac gaming a cooler place to be. I would hate it if I (and by extension Feral) had failed in our aim. We might be slower than some would like (and we are slowly getting faster while not comprising our quality) but we never ship until the port is ready even if we get some flak for the late release.
But before I go I just wanted anyone reading to know we are real gamers at Feral and we genuinely care about the quality of stuff we release and listening to people in forums etc to get feedback on making stuff better. Now I have said my piece I will stop before I start sounding less like the head of production and more like a PR bot
Edwin
@Doh123:
Did Mountain Lion's removal of X11 support have any effect on WINE/Winery? I heard something about Quartz something or other. What do we need to do after we upgrade to ML to keep the goods working?
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To the OP:
In a way, we do either way.
- Pay more for Native Ports through Mac Appstore, resellers, or other channels, because they cost more.
- Purchase a complete version of Windows 7 ($199), then buy the cheaper games.
I guess it all comes down to quantity. Lots of games, save money on Windows route. A few games, eat an extra $5 to $10 bucks here and there with your purchases.
Steam is definitely shaping up to be an equalizer, but there are a large number of games out there, that have Mac ports, that do not appear on Steam for some reason (e.g. Bioshock, Bioshock 2, Red Alert 3 . . . )
It's just not there by default. If you try to run something that needs X11 then it prompts you to go to the XQuartz site and get it and install.
I get your point and I cannot disagree with the reasoning in fact I agree, a lot of the "I don't buy Mac games" has been caused in the past by poor ports.
I just felt I had to qualify I that I did not agree that everyone did crappy ports after all I have spent most of the last 10 years now trying to make Mac gaming a cooler place to be. I would hate it if I (and by extension Feral) had failed in our aim. We might be slower than some would like (and we are slowly getting faster while not comprising our quality) but we never ship until the port is ready even if we get some flak for the late release.
But before I go I just wanted anyone reading to know we are real gamers at Feral and we genuinely care about the quality of stuff we release and listening to people in forums etc to get feedback on making stuff better. Now I have said my piece I will stop before I start sounding less like the head of production and more like a PR bot
Edwin
I couldn't agree more regarding Feral and quality. I think I own about half of Feral's library of games and each has been a solid port. Hell, I've been able to run Feral games on mac laptops that were under the minimum requirements without issue because they directly port their titles verses wineskin or cider and take the time to make sure they aren't releasing a sloppy port full of bugs and performance issues. I'm not knocking on wineskin or cider, as I've played a number of games with both technologies, but I'd always prefer a direct port.