This might be the excuse Apple is looking for to cut off support for a lot of older Macs. "Our scanning requires a 2020 computer or better! You must upgrade to get the new version of macOS. And don't complain--think about the children!"
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With on-device CSAM scanning coming to MacOS 12, do you still trust your Mac?
- Thread starter Hessel89
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It’s only a concern when it’s done repeatedly for extremely large dataset. Doing it just before an upload event will be negligible. I would think your devices will spend more compute cycles categorizing your photos into “moments” for you for example. Even rendering a webpage will use more compute cycles.
I second this.
Apple should fire the team who proposed this blasphemy and get back on the track they advertise: UX and privacy...
I have kids and am far from any CSAM target - but knowing that there is even 1 single process on my Apple device (powered by my electricity) working for someone elses interests - is very disappointing.
Will be my last Apple device...
The day Apple announced this "feature," I backed up my stuff, turned off iCloud services on my phone, ordered a PinePhone, and installed Debian on my MacBook Pro. Like everyone else on this thread, I have nothing to hide, but that's not the point. The point is that the very existence of this program suggests that Apple has lost its way with user privacy. I don't trust any corporation, but I used to accept as plausible the proposition that Apple wasn't interested in user surveillance. Pretty naive, I guess.
OS X was great for many years, and it relieved me of the need to have a Linux machine around for getting stuff done. But this, along with the Big Sur phoning home issues, was the final straw. The walls of the garden just keep getting higher. Apple used to make great computers and a very good OS, but now they just provide an infrastructure for bs. I don't need what they're selling.
Anyway...so long, and thanks for all the credit cards/fitness videos/wearables/headphones/etc
OS X was great for many years, and it relieved me of the need to have a Linux machine around for getting stuff done. But this, along with the Big Sur phoning home issues, was the final straw. The walls of the garden just keep getting higher. Apple used to make great computers and a very good OS, but now they just provide an infrastructure for bs. I don't need what they're selling.
Anyway...so long, and thanks for all the credit cards/fitness videos/wearables/headphones/etc
I don't like to say it this way, but it needs to be said.
This is the typical hasty clean-and-jerk response that has been seen throughout the entire user community. When this was announced, it was immediately seen that there was going to be backlash from this, and in knowing that, everyone knows that Apple would be taking heat from this, to the point where they would have to reconsider their stance on doing this, which they are now doing.
It could come to the point that they will NEVER implement this in the way that they announced, regardless of this being in iOS 14.3, and could even remove it outright. But to go off of a single announcement for this and throw out everything is a huge and hasty response when cooler heads should prevail and let them see if they can fix this. If they can't, then you move.
Right now, cooler heads are prevailing at Apple, so everyone should settle down and reserve judgment. And this is coming from someone who isn't an Apple zealot (I've been a Linux sysadmin for 28 years).
BL.
No. The only possible answer is to cancel on device scanning, anything less and it'll be just as bad as before, and we have to keep reminding them of that. You snooze, you lose.
Au contraire! I took that photo directly after I informed him of Apple's plans.
I agree, but jumping off right now without giving anyone a chance to reconsider or work through it doesn't solve anything either. There is wiggle room/room to improve on this, as nothing is black/white, set in stone, etc. Hence Apple's change of stance on this.
BL.
Yeah, I totally get it — maybe my post sounded a little dramatic, like a knee jerk reaction on my part. But just to be clear, this was the culmination of several years’ worth of privacy/security missteps and general abandonment of the “pro” user (not sure what that means, really, but I like machines that compile code fast and don't have a "Touch Bar"). I’m not just fleeing to some “free” system without considering the consequences — like you, I’ve been using Linux for almost 30 years. Debian has worked for me since forever. I’m glad to stick with it.
Even if Apple abandons this surveillance stuff entirely, the fact that it came nearly to production is really disconcerting. I’ve felt decreasingly in control of my computer and my data in recent years with Apple—I have no regrets about leaving.
I very much disagree, there is no wiggle room at all if any of it is on device.
Just being realistic... your phone is 0wn3d the moment you attach the SIM and connect to someone else's network, and iOS is becoming surveillanceOS. But on macOS you have a different level of control; <looking into Crystal Ball> 101 tuts forthcoming on how to kill all the crap in the process table related to snitchOS you don't want running, and multiple 1-click installers for disabling same.
Little Snitch can't load as a kext and block Apple's connections anymore since Big Sur, but a firewall sure can.
What's incredibly disturbing is the fact that Apple is even doing this. The perception of privacy was one of the foundational reasons I didn't care about paying the Apple Tax.
Little Snitch can't load as a kext and block Apple's connections anymore since Big Sur, but a firewall sure can.
What's incredibly disturbing is the fact that Apple is even doing this. The perception of privacy was one of the foundational reasons I didn't care about paying the Apple Tax.
True. You know, I've been rooting for Purism for years -- I think the market is not going to let them succeed, but I'm glad they're creating at least some noise around exactly this fact.
??This. Absolutely sums it up. Apple tried to build a reputation for privacy, and the fact that they're actively undermining it is enough to push me away.
You're proving my point. The key word in your statement is "IF". Now that they are reconsidering it, that - the reconsideration and the changes they are making - is the wiggle room. If they were not going to budge, then everyone should walk. Instead, they are budging and listening to the backlash. Now is the time to reserve judgment for what they do when this comes up again, and then make the decision based off of that. In short, we are the parents with the arms folded, toe tapping, stern look on our faces after the kid Apple - the kid - got caught with their hand in the cookie jar after being told 4 times not to get a cookie. Now we see what they do next while anything else that is an absolute decision from the Apple community without waiting to see what they do is knee-jerk.
BL.
Given what Apple has said, there will be the device side scanning -- that doesn't change until they say so, so we have to keep the pressure on.
I still don't agree its wiggle room, wiggle room would be some change they might think would be acceptable to the on device scanning that we would somehow like, which is not going to happen. Giving up on device side scanning would be a major redo, not a minor change.
And no, now is NOT the time to reserve judgment, it's the time to redouble our efforts. Apple's not a kid, they are an *extremely* powerful company that a lot of people would allow to do anything just because.
I agree; however, pressure is pressuring them to make changes to make this better if not drop CSAM altogether; taking our toys and running to an alternative without any chance to make things better isn't pressure. Yes, it is "voting with my money", but that proverbial vote doesn't get them to reconsider until it is too late.
What I refer to by wiggle room, is that their decision may or may not be absolute; in this case, due to the pressure put on them, that decision isn't absolute, so there is room for changes to be made.
Perhaps I should have used the word "proverbial", so the point could be made.
BL.
You are all still overthinking this. Reading a comment about a pediatrician writing a book about baby deceases, nappy rashes and what not... I mean, come on. That's over thinking the whole scenario.
Imagine if you will a pediatrician writing this book. Would he or she have references from past books with images also? Yes. It's not a new thing to write books about deceases. How does anyone think that such existing images would be in the CSAM filings if they'd be cleared in the first place. It's not at all what is being taken into account. If the pediatrician set up a date with 10 babies in a run down hotel for the purpose of ****ing these babies and taking pictures on them in the process to share with his or her group of pedophiles, then sure.. eventually these images would be in that CSAM register eventually and that pediatrician would no longer be pediatricianing. And all his or her friends would be out discussion pediatricining in the 30 minutes they have to be in the courtyard in prison - lifting babies as weights. -- again,, babies.
If I could get a vote by hands, how many of you scared folks are American?! Oh, I see - that's 9 out of 10 -- I thought nothing else. Conclusion, are Americans more pedophile than people in other countries?!
Imagine if you will a pediatrician writing this book. Would he or she have references from past books with images also? Yes. It's not a new thing to write books about deceases. How does anyone think that such existing images would be in the CSAM filings if they'd be cleared in the first place. It's not at all what is being taken into account. If the pediatrician set up a date with 10 babies in a run down hotel for the purpose of ****ing these babies and taking pictures on them in the process to share with his or her group of pedophiles, then sure.. eventually these images would be in that CSAM register eventually and that pediatrician would no longer be pediatricianing. And all his or her friends would be out discussion pediatricining in the 30 minutes they have to be in the courtyard in prison - lifting babies as weights. -- again,, babies.
If I could get a vote by hands, how many of you scared folks are American?! Oh, I see - that's 9 out of 10 -- I thought nothing else. Conclusion, are Americans more pedophile than people in other countries?!
In my view there are a number of concerns over the CSAM scanning. I have expressed elsewhere in these forums that detecting CSAM images is a noble cause BUT we should, I believe, have a number of additional concerns;
I have expressed my view that if Apple can 'reach down' and place some form of 'fingerprints' that characterise CSAM then it can also covertly 'reach down' and add extra 'fingerprints' that can 'pre-detect' legitimate activities BUT ...
There is no reason to believe that Apple cannot, and perhaps will be encouraged by the state to, 'reach down' and place some form of speech 'fingerprints' covertly on iPhones. Thereby using the huge processing capability inherent in an iPhone and the iPhone collective to process words 'at the edge' of their ecosystem to spot 'bad thoughts' and flag any 'bad thoughts' or words for further processing and consideration. Of course this surveillance can be justified by an appeal to protecting us all from terrorism - also a very noble cause - but in so doing it takes away any right freedom of expression, thought and speech for the 99.9999% who are not terrorists but just have an alternative view and a right to express it.
Where will these lines of surveillance evolution stop and will the slide into the dystopian future become unstoppable if disagreeing can be detected as a form of 'pre-crime' and any political opposition suppressed before the people can rally.
In a democracy the government should be servant of the people so the question is 'in whose name are these changes being applied?' Is it to save the government from the people by using CSAM and Terrorism as Trojan horse justifications?
Down that path lies a very dark outcome.
I have expressed my view that if Apple can 'reach down' and place some form of 'fingerprints' that characterise CSAM then it can also covertly 'reach down' and add extra 'fingerprints' that can 'pre-detect' legitimate activities BUT ...
There is no reason to believe that Apple cannot, and perhaps will be encouraged by the state to, 'reach down' and place some form of speech 'fingerprints' covertly on iPhones. Thereby using the huge processing capability inherent in an iPhone and the iPhone collective to process words 'at the edge' of their ecosystem to spot 'bad thoughts' and flag any 'bad thoughts' or words for further processing and consideration. Of course this surveillance can be justified by an appeal to protecting us all from terrorism - also a very noble cause - but in so doing it takes away any right freedom of expression, thought and speech for the 99.9999% who are not terrorists but just have an alternative view and a right to express it.
Where will these lines of surveillance evolution stop and will the slide into the dystopian future become unstoppable if disagreeing can be detected as a form of 'pre-crime' and any political opposition suppressed before the people can rally.
In a democracy the government should be servant of the people so the question is 'in whose name are these changes being applied?' Is it to save the government from the people by using CSAM and Terrorism as Trojan horse justifications?
Down that path lies a very dark outcome.
So much hysteria about CSAM scanning what is fine by me if it will eliminates child abusers but what's happening on US airport is probably totally fine. Searching both my iPhone, MacBook and download it's content is beyond what could have allowed and this is the reason why I'm not returning to US anymore. And regarding my opinion what U.S. border officials are doing is concerning me more then CSAM scanning.
Given the current discussion, I’d say that ship has sailed.
I disagree with that premise. Actually, everyone who didn't switch is benefiting from those of us who already have. That is the reason for the delay. They can see the drops in usage. It is thanks to us that anything is happening.
If you wait to do anything until it is too late, then you only have yourself to blame.
As it is, I am not sure it matters anyway, I decided to have as many different vendors in my unwalled garden as possible and everything is working just fine. Oh and no cloud.
Well CSAM is kind of on hold and I am not leaving OSX, I rather just block all Apple connections in my firewall if it comes to it.
I am actually not sure if CSAM would be even legal in Europe with the data protection rules ?
I am actually not sure if CSAM would be even legal in Europe with the data protection rules ?
