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icanhazmac

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Apr 11, 2018
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The use of proper English - a language with a rich and vast vocabulary - is not pretentious.

I support this statement more it seems with every passing day. There were times, which still occur, where I labeled people as "pretentious" when I felt they used vocabulary in an attempt to purposely talk over their audience versus just speaking with some eloquence.

Perhaps I'm just getting older and want those damn kids and their trashy lingo off my lawn. /shrug
 

usagora

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I think that is what the OP intended, just to have some fun with our irrational behaviors, I could be wrong, he can chime in.

Correct. I didn't intend this to be a debate about opinions. For example, it would be pretty silly of me to take you to task over your dislike of the word "kiosk" by saying, "But it's used all the time," "It's not a new word," "It's perfectly acceptable English," etc. (as if you had denied any of those things). And I certainly wouldn't try to make you sound ignorant or inferior in any way for your opinion on that word or any other. I certainly don't mind discussion about the words and phrases mentioned, but I just want it to stay civil and light-hearted, not become a measuring contest!

Thanks for your post :)
 
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Mousse

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I support this statement more it seems with every passing day. There were times, which still occur, where I labeled people as "pretentious" when I felt they used vocabulary in an attempt to purposely talk over their audience versus just speaking with some eloquence.
Indeed. I've always like Ernest Hemingway's quote about the language: "Does he really think big emotions come from big words? He thinks I don’t know the ten-dollar words. I know them all right. But there are older and simpler and better words, and those are the ones I use."
Perhaps I'm just getting older and want those damn kids and their trashy lingo off my lawn. /shrug
Yeah! Bring back the thee's and thou's and n'uncle and the thorn character.😁🙃🙃
 

Scepticalscribe

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Indeed. I've always like Ernest Hemingway's quote about the language: "Does he really think big emotions come from big words? He thinks I don’t know the ten-dollar words. I know them all right. But there are older and simpler and better words, and those are the ones I use."

Yeah! Bring back the thee's and thou's and n'uncle and the thorn character.😁🙃🙃
Actually, the most effective - to my mind - is a mix, a blend, of big and small.

Monosyllabic conversation or writing quickly becomes boring, and is rarely a real pleasure; to my mind, it is the intelligent and eloquent use of a mix of older and simpler words with the subtle mastery of eloquence that gives a letter, or speech, or conversation real power.
 

Mousse

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Actually, the most effective - to my mind - is a mix, a blend, of big and small.
Yes.👏 Speak at the level of the audience.
Monosyllabic conversation or writing quickly becomes boring, and is rarely a real pleasure; to my mind, it is the intelligent and eloquent use of a mix of older and simpler words with the subtle mastery of eloquence that gives a letter, or speech, or conversation real power.
I teach 6th graders from time to time. Somedays I forget that there are words they don't understand yet. If I over use those ten-dollar words, they keep asking "Mr. Mousse, what does 'sobriquet' mean?" Other times, I think they won't understand the concise word I want to use, so I get all wordy. As I'm struggling to get them to understand, one of the students would ask, "Do you mean 'immaculate'?" Yes, exactly.
 

Scepticalscribe

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Yes.👏 Speak at the level of the audience.

I teach 6th graders from time to time. Somedays I forget that there are words they don't understand yet. If I over use those ten-dollar words, they keep asking "Mr. Mousse, what does 'sobriquet' mean?" Other times, I think they won't understand the concise word I want to use, so I get all wordy. As I'm struggling to get them to understand, one of the students would ask, "Do you mean 'immaculate'?" Yes, exactly.
Brilliant example.

And sometimes, they know what you describe as the "ten-dollar" words, the complicated polysyllabic one, they understand it perfectly, can spell it (correctly), and know how to use it in the correct context, but they may not know how to pronounce it, never having heard it spoken.

Actually, this is one thing I do miss from teaching: I loved how my students kept me abreast of modern slang, and changes in vocabulary, and how language was used.

Yes, people with teenagers (or kids) will have ready access to this, as well, but I found my students an invaluable resource - sometimes, they taught me as much as I taught them.
 
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Chuckeee

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Yes.👏 Speak at the level of the audience.

I teach 6th graders from time to time. Somedays I forget that there are words they don't understand yet. If I over use those ten-dollar words, they keep asking "Mr. Mousse, what does 'sobriquet' mean?" Other times, I think they won't understand the concise word I want to use, so I get all wordy. As I'm struggling to get them to understand, one of the students would ask, "Do you mean 'immaculate'?" Yes, exactly.
It must be inflation. I always remembered them referred to them as two dollar words and now they are ten-dollar words!
 

DaveFromCampbelltown

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Jun 24, 2020
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Well, wouldn't that sill be a shallow curve? The more effort you have to exert (further down the x-axis) to reach a higher level of knowledge (further up the y-axis) makes a shallower curve, not a steep one.

You are right. That's what happens when I try to reply before the coffee has kicked in...
 
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Going omnibus with my reply here:

Did we already mention steep learning curve?

Graphs based on changes over time always put time on the X-axis. For a “learning curve,” knowledge would therefore be on the Y-axis. A steep slope would mean a lot of knowledge gained in a short amount of time. So something that’s hard to master should be referred to as having a shallow learning curve! Or else steep learning curve should mean “easy to learn.”

This might be where using a “long learning slope” — namely, on learning difficult skills — might be more accurate, but to use this in a passage would have people ask you pause from speaking for a beat as they process the visual or logical implication of that never-heard phrase.

I am poor at Calculus but quite good at Statistics (as I needed to be as a biologist). You could trust me to give you an accurate estimate of the population growth of rabbits in your field (or, in fact, the accuracy of a political survey), but not to design a bridge over a river

Conjuring that old gem, “There are lies, damned lies, and statistics.” :D

Better certainly for the respect gained by the flight attendants and their jobs. However, I definitely do NOT find the passenger experience better in any way regardless of how someone refers to the working employees.

Flight attendants are doing their best with the limited resources they have nowadays.

The slide in quality and service is all in the hands of what shareholders want (which is, usually and unsurprisingly, a maximum quarterly dividend in the near-term, with very little concern for the long-term consequences of their short-term greed). That parenthetical aside applies to a whole lot more than just the air transport sector, though.

It’s worth caching that thought each and every time you see quality of service or quality of product start to break down: on one end, the consumer wants the best bang for the buck, but investors (who are, ironically, also consumers, few of whom bother to make this connection or just don’t care) want to extract every last drop of “value” from their shares and funds. That leaves little room for upkeep of operations and proper pay for the labour. Consequently, things come undone.

As for work titles, I’m quite glad “stewardess” is no longer, just as “waitress” — now “server” — has fallen into antiquated disuse, as their use also conferred, implicitly, a distinction based on gender which, consequently, gave teeth to even more lopsided underpay from their gendered counterparts in those circumstance which had some overlap (“steward” and “waiter”, respectively).

I think it sounds pretentious (at least it would in my apparently lower social class circles 🙄).

We often think of class being centred solely around fungible wealth (and in great part, it can be), but a bigger part of class values comes from the willingness and curiosity to be a sponge of learning throughout one’s own life. The obvious, easiest way to fill that sponge is to pick up and read books from all areas. Another is to develop skills for critical analysis, for things like writing on reviewed research (I’m thinking of both scholars and old-fashioned journalism here). (There’s a third leg of class — learnt from “finishing” schools — for which very few people ever see or know themselves, and which play into a much older sense of “class” based on a notion of pedigree — something probably more familiar to the British upper classes and, for most of today’s generations, not so much).

So much of what we hold onto, just as a sponge with water, stays with us and in how we interact with people around us. It’s easier to not draw from that sponge for everyday interactions than it is to try to draw from a drier sponge around interactions which absolutely rely on retention of that moisture.

That “filling” sponge confers, in practice, a great deal about one’s class, insofar as that willingness and curiosity are prioritized. Put another way, one can have a lot of money and be poorly read: their class won’t be “upper” in any meaningful sense (see, “nouveau riche”), whereas one can have nearly no money but extremely well-read or worldly. They may be “poor” in the bank account sense but but won’t be parsed as “lower” in a class-based discussion.

The moral, I guess, is to strive always for having a great sponge, a drive to quench its parched thirst, and to ignore anybody who argues how this isn’t a good thing for one to have.


Personally, I really dislike (for, needless to say, we don't use these terms, but yes, naturally, of course, we do understand them), American colloquialisms such as "gonna" or "gotta".

"Gonna" (a contraction of "going to") is used in lieu of the future tense - what's wrong with "I will"?

I’mma remember this is one of your peeves from now on! :D

Bring back the thee's and thou's

Interestingly, only fairly recently did I learn how the “y” in things like “ye olde” was, in the day of Middle English, not pronounced as we would any word today starting with “y”, but as we would “th”. So, yes, “ye ole” was pronounced then, verbally, as “the old(e)”.

I’m guessing there might be something to the “thee” and “thou” involved here, as well, where back in their printed daily use (either before or just after the Gutenberg press, not sure the timing here), they might have been pronounced verbally as “ye” (kind of like “ya” or “yuh” now) and “you”, respectively.

Linguistics is a disciplinary rabbit hole I was always kind of afraid of — probably in no small part due to being yanked from grade-school class twice a week for an hour of speech therapy though three years of my childhood. That therapy, plus a very mocking, poorly-read parent who denigrated me for my several speech impediments — and also for my use of what they would refer to as “twenty-five-cent words” (yes, I guess the inflation is real) — scarred me for life from delving further into that discipline for either fun or profit accreditation.


It must be inflation. I always remembered them referred to them as two dollar words and now they are ten-dollar words!

Yup. Definitely inflation. :D
 
Leave it to Americans to condense four words into two syllables: I am going to = Imma 😅

I suppose, although I’m in Canada (and was very much also in Canada when I first heard “I’ma…”).

Though some British colloquialisms are right awful innit, fam?

It’s interesting to observe how people who use “fam” as literal shorthand slang for “family” don’t tend to overlap with the original speakers and their meaning of “fam”, having roots in AAVE as a way of saying, “my people” — which could be any of friends, intimates, and/or family. That is, “all the people in my life who matter”.

In more recent years, one may also see “fam” in, say, online or social media conversations as a way to address an audience — whether friend/family or (often) not.
 

rm5

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Personally, I really dislike (for, needless to say, we don't use these terms, but yes, naturally, of course, we do understand them), American colloquialisms such as "gonna" or "gotta".

"Gonna" (a contraction of "going to") is used in lieu of the future tense - what's wrong with "I will"?
Well that's how some of us speak, so I suppose it's a representation of that.

Something about "I will go to the store" sounds a little weird to me, compared to "I'm gonna go to the store"—as I, for instance, would say. Same thing for stuff that will happen even further in the future - for example "The new update for Sonoma is gonna be released tomorrow" instead of "The new update for Sonoma will be released tomorrow." Personally, I likely wouldn't use the latter as much.
 

Scepticalscribe

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Well that's how some of us speak, so I suppose it's a representation of that.

Something about "I will go to the store" sounds a little weird to me, compared to "I'm gonna go to the store"—as I, for instance, would say. Same thing for stuff that will happen even further in the future - for example "The new update for Sonoma is gonna be released tomorrow" instead of "The new update for Sonoma will be released tomorrow." Personally, I likely wouldn't use the latter as much.
Here, we don't use "gonna" at all.

Ugh.

I grit my teeth whenever I hear it, - but accept that it is informal speech, and, significantly, US informal speech, or, rather, use of that expression will serve to identify it - immediately, to my ear - as informal US speech.

However, when written, yes, I realise, recognise, understand that it is supposed to be informal, or signal an informal context (such as an online tech platform dedicated to discussion of matters relating to Apple devices), but, personally, I cannot abide it.

And, if it had appeared in an essay, a term essay, or exam paper, privately, I would have wished to murder the student who had written it.

Nevertheless, since we don't use "gonna", what we might say, instead, and it uses the future tense "will", but contracts this, is "I'll", a contraction of "I will"; thus, "I'll pick that up at the shop", "I'll do that this evening", "I'll go to the shop for milk", etc.
 
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usagora

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We often think of class being centred solely around fungible wealth (and in great part, it can be), but a bigger part of class values comes from the willingness and curiosity to be a sponge of learning throughout one’s own life.

My parenthetical remark was sarcastic in response to what I felt was a condescending response from someone else. I have a wide range of interests and a liberal arts education, but I still find certain words sound pretentious depending on the context in which they are used. Certain words and phrases that no one would blink an eye at when used in formal documents, research papers, lectures, etc. would come off as affectatious when used in casual conversation or writing (including forum posts). And it goes beyond just words and phrases to writing style in general as well.

So, to me, this isn't a matter of education level or vocabulary knowledge. There are plenty of words that I've been familiar with a long time about which I'd say the same thing that I did about the word that I just learned the other day. At the end of the day, it's a subjective question in which people may never agree on specific examples, and that's ok as long as it's not implied by either person that the disagreement is due to one person being more/less educated, cultured, etc. than the other.
 
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avz

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So, to me, this isn't a matter of education level or vocabulary knowledge. There are plenty of words that I've been familiar with a long time about which I'd say the same thing that I did about the word that I just learned the other day. At the end of the day, it's a subjective question in which people may never agree on specific examples, and that's ok as long as it's not implied by either person that the disagreement is due to one person being more/less educated, cultured, etc. than the other.
I think that what we can clearly see from this topic and peoples reaction to it is that the words and their origin do matter almost in a conspiratory "symbols and signs to know us by" kind of way. "Us and them", "my side of the pond", etc.

Education is of course a very broad term that have very little to do with the vocabulary knowledge itself and have everything to do with understanding what are you manifesting by using certain words and do these ideas really come from you or somewhere else.

I believe that the annoyances with words that are always "subjective" and we "can't explain why" are simply our way to rebel against certain "ideas" that we feel are being pushed onto us against our will like the perceived "hierarchy".
 

usagora

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I think that what we can clearly see from this topic and peoples reaction to it is that the words and their origin do matter almost in a conspiratory "symbols and signs to know us by" kind of way. "Us and them", "my side of the pond", etc.

For some here, that is clearly true. For me it's not, and I detest it when people make xenophobic remarks about slang terms, etc.

I believe that the annoyances with words that are always "subjective" and we "can't explain why" are simply our way to rebel against certain "ideas" that we feel are being pushed onto us against our will like the perceived "hierarchy".

Well, that certainly makes sense with some of the words being mentioned here (ones that are closely tied to socio-political issues, for instance), but often for me, at least, it's simply because I think the word/phrase sounds dumb (e.g. "doggo" for dog) or is often used in a vain attempt to sound fancy (e.g. "I found the leash and used said leash to walk my doggo" 😂).
 
I think that what we can clearly see from this topic and peoples reaction to it is that the words and their origin do matter almost in a conspiratory "symbols and signs to know us by" kind of way. "Us and them", "my side of the pond", etc.

Locally and amongst friends, I’ve tossed out the idea for the founding of an unabridged Dictionary of North American Dogwhistles (with, if it were to be successful, similar dictionaries for other regions), but that scope of project is a task I’m not able or willing to undertake. Maybe Lonely Planet, publisher of the brilliant USA Phrasebook, could take up that mantle (seen in link: cover of the 2nd edition; I owned the 1st edition and kept it in the glove box of the last car I owned).

So if anyone else wants to pitch that idea to an editor, have at it. All I ask is for some thanks in your acknowledgements. :D


I believe that the annoyances with words that are always "subjective" and we "can't explain why" are simply our way to rebel against certain "ideas" that we feel are being pushed onto us against our will like the perceived "hierarchy".

Although that is the subject of this thread — emphasis on the “can’t explain why” portion — none of the shared examples to annoy me personally is accompanied by a “can’t explain why”. I can explain the root of my annoyance(s), why they’re there, and as available, am able to suggest other ways of describing or prescribing the flagged concept in a much less vexatious (e.g., “make no mistake”) or even inaccurate (e.g., “grow a [non-living entity/concept]”) way.
 

avz

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Although that is the subject of this thread — emphasis on the “can’t explain why” portion — none of the shared examples to annoy me personally is accompanied by a “can’t explain why”. I can explain the root of my annoyance(s), why they’re there, and as available, am able to suggest other ways of describing or prescribing the flagged concept in a much less vexatious (e.g., “make no mistake”) or even inaccurate (e.g., “grow a [non-living entity/concept]”) way.
Perhaps saying that something is "subjective" and "can't explain why" helps to avoid arguments and turning a fun topic about "nothing" into a topic about "everything".

We live in a time where people in general somehow managed to arrive at a "mental place" where some highly questionable and esoteric concepts like "budget deficit is merely an illusion(until it is obviously not)" are getting accepted with no or very little resistance. Makes you wonder what else in our lives is merely an illusion? So for anybody to hold a view "I can explain why" on any subject is a very tall order to say the least.
 
Perhaps saying that something is "subjective" and "can't explain why" helps to avoid arguments and turning a fun topic about "nothing" into a topic about "everything".

Although I don’t think I brought up subjectivity (as, well, I gathered that was a given for all of us participating on this here discussion), the “can’t explain why” angle is fine for folks who, honestly, can’t explain why something bothers them.

But here’s the caveat about one raising the “can’t explain why” bit: someone else may be able to do so and, moreover, is able to note how one of those bothersome “can’t explain why” bits might hit them close to where they live.

The thing is, very little about language and communication is truly benign. It’s also why I, personally speaking, strive to figure out for myself why a word usage or phrase is bothersome: I want to comprehend why it gets under my skin like that, to make sense of it. That’s what works for me. I also understand this doesn’t work for everyone, and that’s fine.

I think this discussion is not only fun, but also engaging and thought-provoking. :)


We live in a time where people in general somehow managed to arrive at a "mental place" where some highly questionable and esoteric concepts like "budget deficit is merely an illusion(until it is obviously not)" are getting accepted with no or very little resistance. Makes you wonder what else in our lives is merely an illusion?

Yah, I sincerely have no idea on that one. What that phrase sounds like is an effort to numb a message, whatever the underlying, implied message is getting at, rather than just saying it outright. My neurodivergent mind sees a vague phrase like that and wants the person conveying it to be direct and to the point, even if that person is highly loath to do so.

So for anybody to hold a view "I can explain why" on any subject is a very tall order to say the least.

Perhaps. For some folks “I can’t explain why” is fine. For me, at least with examples I’ve contributed to this discussion, I do want to be able to convey to folks reading the thread why the examples are bothersome and to leave little ambiguity (on my end) about why I found the word or phrase to be so off-putting, personally. Sometimes, that’s the end of things, while with others, it can invite sidebar discussions to happen (like the recent discussion on labour and the demise of “stewardess” and “waitress”).
 

avz

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I think this discussion is not only fun, but also engaging and thought-provoking. :)
I am glad it is.

Yah, I sincerely have no idea on that one. What that phrase sounds like is an effort to numb a message, whatever the underlying, implied message is getting at, rather than just saying it outright. My neurodivergent mind sees a vague phrase like that and wants the person conveying it to be direct and to the point, even if that person is highly loath to do so.
My understanding is that since we are already accepting a highly questionable esoteric concepts(or at least acting like we are accepting it in some sort of public consensus) it is increasingly becoming very hard for us to see "the forest from the trees" and therefore makes us very vulnerable and open to crooks.
 

avz

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Perhaps. For some folks “I can’t explain why” is fine. For me, at least with examples I’ve contributed to this discussion, I do want to be able to convey to folks reading the thread why the examples are bothersome and to leave little ambiguity (on my end) about why I found the word or phrase to be so off-putting, personally. Sometimes, that’s the end of things, while with others, it can invite sidebar discussions to happen (like the recent discussion on labour and the demise of “stewardess” and “waitress”).
You did make yourself very clear why do you find some examples are bothersome and perhaps even detest it. Your position is understandable and I would say actually very common.

However at the same time you are in a situation where you have to deal with a highly questionable esoteric concept like "woman is a man, man is a woman" and therefore make sure that you are not end up promoting things that you never really intended to promote. Otherwise the power of your good intentions and position will be used by all sorts of crooks and "bad actors". After all the real management is the management that you are unable to see(yet another esoteric concept).

So the woman who says "I would much rather wear a skirt a be called "a skirt" than wear a pants and be called "one of the boys." actually has a very conceptually powerful position that protects femininity and takes away the power from the "bad actors" with all their esoteric concepts.
 
However at the same time you are in a situation where you have to deal with a highly questionable esoteric concept like "woman is a man, man is a woman" and therefore make sure that you are not end up promoting things that you never really intended to promote.

What even are you talking about here… 🧐

Otherwise the power of your good intentions and position will be used by all sorts of crooks and "bad actors". After all the real management is the management that you are unable to see(yet another esoteric concept).

Uh… alright? ::headscratcher_emoji_which_does_not_exist"::

So the woman who says "I would much rather wear a skirt a be called "a skirt" than wear a pants and be called "one of the boys." actually has a very conceptually powerful position that protects femininity and takes away the power from the "bad actors" with all their esoteric concepts.

Oh lordt… 🤦‍♀️
 
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