Worth buying Mac Pro?

[Melbourne Park]

And you can get a Dell 8-core DP system with better CPU performance for $2,165 new.

Refurbished Dell have many systems that are exceptional offers. You can score high-speed DP systems with only one processor very cheap and some with loads of memory, two processors and very high end Quadro cards for massive savings. Heck I see a system for $2,200 on Dell outlet with a $1,750 Quadro 5000. Single CPU there are 6-core systems for under $1,500. If you shop smart Dell are always going to be cheaper, their margins are lower and they want your business.

But for me, not so. In the USA, OK I presume.

For me, they are more expensive.

As far as refurbished Apple goes, I think they are new. For instance for Australia, I know one Apple dealer bought as much superceded stock as Apple would allow. The dealer claims they bought all of them. The machines are sold as entirely new. Not refurbished. And I think, Apple does just the same thing ... if a dealer had not of bought them, I think they'd have been listed as refurbs.

Over here, Dell 30" monitors cost $1700. I tried to buy one, but an internet glitch stopped the sale. I contacted them ... and they said too bad, you missed out. They put deals up ... but to get them, is not so easy. I have tried to buy a 30" on two occassions from Dell direct, and failed on both occassions. They now say next time, they will contact me ... I am waiting.

And I have seen many complaints with them too about monitors ... that bad monitors are sent back, and the ones that arrive, a no good also.

I've bought a 24" though, and it has been fine. But ... I will try the 30" if a deal comes, but as far as a desktop goes, I guess they are cheaper but Mac Pros are still marvellously built and can still be bargains IMO. Of course, if its games and one is happy to live with Windows, then perhaps they are a good choice.

 

[chrono1081]

When was the last time you used a Windows machine, and what version of the OS was it?

I ask, as the disparity between the two in terms of stability has come a long way. Most of what I see these days, comes down to a lack of knowledge (either the user made mistakes, or the system vendor didn't iron out the bugs before shipping <unstable hardware and drivers for example>).

I'm not saying that one OS is better than another, but the old adage of Unix based OS's being far superior to Windows isn't the case any longer, particularly when configured properly.

Just something to think about.

I use them and support them daily at work. Windows 7, although much better than XP and certainly Vista, still isn't as good in my experience at handling large data sets like Linux and Mac machines. This is very apparent when using programs like Mari, After Effects, multiple Autodesk products like Maya and Smoke, and a few others.

 

[nanofrog]

At work I use Windows XP and 7. I also use Ubuntu and RHEL. We run a weird mixture of software and some of the client software is windows only.

I've worked with multiple OS's as well, and they all have/had their issues.

My comment was primarily to discourage the "Windows = Unstable as a General Rule" statements, as things have changed considerably since say Windows 95.

Today, one may be a bit more stable than another in a particular situation, but it's not drastically (night and day comparisons of the past) in most cases. Exceptions would likely be found, but they're just that, exceptions, not the general rule any longer.

It's also important to realize that a system is the hardware + software + OS, and a failure/issue can occur in one or more of those areas. Which can be mitigated, or even eliminated, by proper configuration (i.e. build a test system, and test the devil out of it). I realize you understand this aspect, but not everyone may look at it this way, which is why I mention this.

Unfortunately, not everyone has an IT staff, and if independent/SMB, haven't the funds, time, or skill to do it themselves. And given the various members here in MR, this aspect seems very important IMHO, as I've a strong impression most of our creative developers fall into the independent/SOHO/SMB classification rather than working for a Fortune 500 company that has deep pockets.

I still find windows to have stability problems. Some of it may be the vendor's software and not the OS, but the end result is the same. I'll have runaway processes that leak memory and CPU. I've had strange issues where my computer hangs at login after entering username and password (this is only in 7, not XP). In short, I still have to reboot fairly often just to clean up whatever CRUD is running.

Our windows servers were a nightmare. Clustered software kept starting and stopping itself. Software updates kept restarting the server at midnight once a week (although that turned out to be a setting our admin missed, which ironically required a restart before the correct setting would hold).

Small niggles that can drive you nutz for sure. But as you mention, bad updates, missed settings, or incomplete compatibility/stability testing can create such headaches.

I'm not saying it's perfect if these things are all caught, such as the application being used has strange behavior (= nothing the IT or user can do about it). But it's not what it once was (BSOD's left and right, even if the system was idle).

As it happens, I prefer to use Linux for servers (fan of RHEL myself for servers), and Windows on workstations (commonality makes some things a lot easier).

As for Ubuntu, I don't have any stability problems. It does some weird things with memory management that bug me (why swap to disk when there are 2 GB of free ram?), and the graphics drivers are less than impressive. But the OS itself has been very solid for me.

I see this a lot, even in other OS's, particularly with specific applications (poorly written).

In the case of creative suites, Photoshop is one IMHO (still does a lot of disk swapping).

I did a little of my own playing and came up with some numbers.

Dell T5500: $6,468

• Dual hex core 3.06GHZ X5675

Apple Mac Pro: $6,448

• Dual hex core 3.06GHZ X5675

In this setup the Apple is cheaper (BUT JUST BARELY). But you're right about the dell support. Apple doesn't make house calls.

As the CPUID's go up, they do tend to get closer regarding cost, particularly when you configure as closely as possible (memory capacity, HDD capacity, ...).

For me though, the support issue puts Dell in the lead instead. Additional hardware customization (3rd party or directly from the vendor) is a nice big cherry on top.

Software wise, I don't need OSX for anything, so it's doesn't hold much sway in regard to an existing software investment. What's left is stability and support, which Apple doesn't have any real advantage in the first category, and none in the latter in my case.

This could easily work out another way for someone else, particularly if they do have an extensive investment in OSX based software. Not just the licensing costs where applicable, but training as well.

Actually with a refurb, you can get a twin CPU Xeon for $2,700. If that machine is fast enough for now (and its slow at single thread applications), it has a real upgrade path.

If they're available, sure. But it might not be when the system is needed, so I based the price comparisons off of MSRP.

But as mentioned, Dell and other vendors sell Refurbished systems as well, so for a fair comparison in that regard, you'd have to look solely at Refurbished units from any vendor you're interested in. Otherwise, it's not a fair comparison.

Not to say it's not relevant, as budgets are always important.

As per a Hackintosh, it's not advisable to use such a system professionally IMHO, due to any potential support issues on a system that has to earn it's keep (user/company makes it's income off of that machine).

For personal use, I say have at it for those that are interested. As per maintenance on them, it will depend on the hardware used (comes back to testing), so the results can vary wildly (from rock solid, to beyond flaky).

As far as refurbished Apple goes, I think they are new.

If there's a new model out, then overstock will be sold off as Refurbished. Otherwise, they're used machines they went through and fixed (some have slight cosmetic damage to prove it, as well as different S/N's).

I use them and support them daily at work. Windows 7, although much better than XP and certainly Vista, still isn't as good in my experience at handling large data sets like Linux and Mac machines. This is very apparent when using programs like Mari, After Effects, multiple Autodesk products like Maya and Smoke, and a few others.

I've the impression it's not the OS, but the applications (seen this sort of thing before; especially easy to see if you're comparing similar application suites <different vendors>, and test them on the same system).

Poorly written memory handling in an application is like shooting off both feet, and being expected to run a marathon.

 

[derbothaus]

Are there 6 core Ivy bridge CPUs out? I didn't think there were.

Oops. Judgement lapse. Yes only SB-E/ E5's based on Sandy Bridge are released with hex models. Ivy Quads are close to Westmere 6-cores. Sandy 6-cores are faster than Westmere. Next years Ivy hex's will extend the disparity further. But that may be what we get in new xMac/ Mac Pro/ promised thing.

 

[Melbourne Park]

I've worked with multiple OS's as well, and they all have/had their issues.

My comment was primarily to discourage the "Windows = Unstable as a General Rule" statements, as things have changed considerably since say Windows 95.

Today, one may be a bit more stable than another in a particular situation, but it's not drastically (night and day comparisons of the past) in most cases. Exceptions would likely be found, but they're just that, exceptions, not the general rule any longer.

It's also important to realize that a system is the hardware + software + OS, and a failure/issue can occur in one or more of those areas. Which can be mitigated, or even eliminated, by proper configuration (i.e. build a test system, and test the devil out of it). I realize you understand this aspect, but not everyone may look at it this way, which is why I mention this.

Unfortunately, not everyone has an IT staff, and if independent/SMB, haven't the funds, time, or skill to do it themselves. And given the various members here in MR, this aspect seems very important IMHO, as I've a strong impression most of our creative developers fall into the independent/SOHO/SMB classification rather than working for a Fortune 500 company that has deep pockets.


Small niggles that can drive you nutz for sure. But as you mention, bad updates, missed settings, or incomplete compatibility/stability testing can create such headaches.

I'm not saying it's perfect if these things are all caught, such as the application being used has strange behavior (= nothing the IT or user can do about it). But it's not what it once was (BSOD's left and right, even if the system was idle).

As it happens, I prefer to use Linux for servers (fan of RHEL myself for servers), and Windows on workstations (commonality makes some things a lot easier).


I see this a lot, even in other OS's, particularly with specific applications (poorly written).

In the case of creative suites, Photoshop is one IMHO (still does a lot of disk swapping).


As the CPUID's go up, they do tend to get closer regarding cost, particularly when you configure as closely as possible (memory capacity, HDD capacity, ...).

For me though, the support issue puts Dell in the lead instead. Additional hardware customization (3rd party or directly from the vendor) is a nice big cherry on top.

Software wise, I don't need OSX for anything, so it's doesn't hold much sway in regard to an existing software investment. What's left is stability and support, which Apple doesn't have any real advantage in the first category, and none in the latter in my case.

This could easily work out another way for someone else, particularly if they do have an extensive investment in OSX based software. Not just the licensing costs where applicable, but training as well.


If they're available, sure. But it might not be when the system is needed, so I based the price comparisons off of MSRP.

But as mentioned, Dell and other vendors sell Refurbished systems as well, so for a fair comparison in that regard, you'd have to look solely at Refurbished units from any vendor you're interested in. Otherwise, it's not a fair comparison.

Not to say it's not relevant, as budgets are always important.

As per a Hackintosh, it's not advisable to use such a system professionally IMHO, due to any potential support issues on a system that has to earn it's keep (user/company makes it's income off of that machine).

For personal use, I say have at it for those that are interested. As per maintenance on them, it will depend on the hardware used (comes back to testing), so the results can vary wildly (from rock solid, to beyond flaky).


If there's a new model out, then overstock will be sold off as Refurbished. Otherwise, they're used machines they went through and fixed (some have slight cosmetic damage to prove it, as well as different S/N's).


I've the impression it's not the OS, but the applications (seen this sort of thing before; especially easy to see if you're comparing similar application suites <different vendors>, and test them on the same system).

Poorly written memory handling in an application is like shooting off both feet, and being expected to run a marathon.

Good post.

Only thing I'd mention though about Dell, at least for me, is the cost of putting the system together. One starts with the price, and then has to add a lot of things with the Dell. Such as a high cost, for the OS. And other things came up too, that were not there for the Mac.


That Apple is around the same price performance, is IMO pretty impressive. They used to cost a lot more for similar benchmark performance. Perhaps that is why the updates happen less - MPs are no longer big profit earners for Apple I suspect.

 

[theSeb]

Oops. Judgement lapse. Yes only SB-E/ E5's based on Sandy Bridge are released with hex models. Ivy Quads are close to Westmere 6-cores. Sandy 6-cores are faster than Westmere. Next years Ivy hex's will extend the disparity further. But that may be what we get in new xMac/ Mac Pro/ promised thing.

That would be great, but I would be happy with an E5 1650

 

[nanofrog]

Only thing I'd mention though about Dell, at least for me, is the cost of putting the system together. One starts with the price, and then has to add a lot of things with the Dell. Such as a high cost, for the OS. And other things came up too, that were not there for the Mac.

Can you be a bit more specific (not sure if this is special hardware you're not running on a Mac, or if it has to do with shipping <thinking you're in Australia>)?

That Apple is around the same price performance, is IMO pretty impressive. They used to cost a lot more for similar benchmark performance. Perhaps that is why the updates happen less - MPs are no longer big profit earners for Apple I suspect.

Not too long ago, the MP was actually cheaper for the same base hardware (same Xeon CPUID/s).

Unfortunately, that changed in 2009 (Apple's margins and thusly MSRP went crazy, making similarly configured MP's more expensive than their PC counterparts).

As per the profitability/sales volume aspects, that's been covered heavily in other threads (worth searching IMHO if you're interested).

 

[Melbourne Park]

Can you be a bit more specific (not sure if this is special hardware you're not running on a Mac, or if it has to do with shipping <thinking you're in Australia>)?


Not too long ago, the MP was actually cheaper for the same base hardware (same Xeon CPUID/s).

OK. I just bought a (now superceded Mac Pro) the 8 core, for $2,750. Its not a refurb. It came with an OS, 8GB Ram, 1 GB drive, mouse and keyboard. And lots of connections.

The Dell:
Online Price From $2,544.01

Intel® Xeon® E5620 2.40GHz, 12M cache, 5.86 GT/s QPI, Turbo, HT, 4C

There are lots of options ... but go to this:
Dual Intel® Quad Core Xeon® E5620 2.40GHz, 12M cache, 5.86 GT/s QPI, Turbo, HT, 4C
$3,826.60

It comes with:
8GB (4x2GB) DDR3 UDIMM Memory, 1333MHz,ECC
500GB 7200RPM 3.5'' SATA3 Hard Disk Drive
All SATA drives, Non-RAID, 1 drive total configuration
16X max SATA DVD+/-RW with Dual Layer Write Capabilities
256MB NVIDIA Quadro NVS 295 (2DP) (1DP-DVI adapter)
Trend Micro Worry-Free Business Security 3.5 (Multi-Language) 30 Days
No Internal Speaker
Also Includes
Dell Precision T5500 Chassis with TPM

I presume its got 8 memory slots, and I think it has a DVD burner.

It does have a cheap 19" monitor though.

Oh ... then there's the OS. That one is just Windows Pro.

Add Ultimate, and the price becomes

$4,011.40

And ... there is no sound card in it either.

Add that, and also, there is no wireless in it either, so add that too:

$4,219.30

Plus, you don't get ethernet either ... I'll add that, with the 1 GB drive upgrade, and also a firewire port:

$4,348.70

It does have three year support though.

But ... with Apple, I can take it to dealers and Apple centres all over the place, and they'll fix it and be terrific. With Dell, the experience is devoid of people, and when you talk to them, they are in Singapore.

And they are not easy to talk to, in my experience.

Sure they are said to be great value though ... but ... its not so simple.

I also bought a 27" Dell monitor ... from an Apple dealer. Who are great people. You can talk to them, in person too.

And - Dell charge $387 to transfer your data ... which is dead easy to do from Mac to Mac. But I'll leave that cost out ... and if I went on, there'd be more costs I think ... there's no keyboard or mouse yet ... and probably some other things as well ... I also avoided the Norton, but I'd buy it for a Windows machine. As we did for our games Windows machine.

I had wanted to buy the 30" Monitor from Dell which was discounted, but the internet played up as i tried to buy. I called Dell on the phone, and several days later, they said they would not honour the deal. I was not overly impressed with them.

 

[thekev]

OK. I just bought a superceded Mac Pro, the 8 core, for $2,750. It came with an OS, 8GB Ram, 1 GB drive, mouse and keyboard.

The Dell:
Online Price From $2,544.01

Intel® Xeon® E5620 2.40GHz, 12M cache, 5.86 GT/s QPI, Turbo, HT, 4C

I'm a little confused by your post. If you're going with the T7500 or whatever for that configuration, that's significantly different from the mac pro design. The T5500 would probably be the closest to base from specwise. You are neglecting that a T3600 or 5600 is a current option. That would give you Sandy Bridge E and a much lower cost of entry for equivalent performance. You can get a T3600 with an E5-1650 down to $1800. Whether you're buying the Mac Pro or the Dell, do your own ram upgrades and save some money. I never buy ram from Apple, so I don't bother messing with it for comparison if you upgrade on your own either way. That cpu is faster than Apple's hex core and 8 core options. It comes with a 3 year warranty standard.

You can also get a T5600 with dual E5-2630 cpus at $3515. This is in US pricing. It was with a Firepro V4900. It's not that expensive of a card, but the 5770 is weaker in OpenGL under Windows.

Anyway this doesn't mean no one should buy the mac pro. There are more expensive options in Windows based PCs too, yet people still buy them. An HP, Boxx, or Lenovo workstation will price out consistently higher than the Dell with comparable specs. Overall Dell has been working reasonably hard on their workstations. Some of the reviews on the current generation were quite favorable compared to nehalem era hardware which the mac pro still uses. If it needs to run OSX, I'd still suggest a Mac Pro. If it's for Windows, I'd suggest something else.

By the way, you might wait to see if NEC drops pricing a bit like they did in the US. The PA271w is only $1100 here from some shops at this point. Assuming a similar price model, 10% GST (if it's still 10%) would put it at $1210. Things tend to sell a bit higher there. I could see $1300, but it's still not a bad deal. I can't remember what software works with their Australian product versions. They use a couple different variants depending on where you buy them worldwide.

 

[TacticalDesire]

But ... with Apple, I can take it to dealers and Apple centres all over the place, and they'll fix it and be terrific. With Dell, the experience is devoid of people, and when you talk to them, they are in Singapore.

And they are not easy to talk to, in my experience.

Sure they are said to be great value though ... but ... its not so simple.

Not true at all. If you buy a business machine, you get US based support, the people are extremely helpful, and don't try to sell you stuff you don't need, and they have onsite support. You can have technician at your house in 2 hours.

Not sure what you're basing all of that on, but it's not true. Anymore anyway.

Their default support plan with their Fast ship T3600.

 

[nanofrog]

OK. I just bought a (now superseded Mac Pro) the 8 core, for $2,750. Its not a refurb. It came with an OS, 8GB Ram, 1 GB drive, mouse and keyboard. And lots of connections.

The Dell:
Online Price From $2,544.01

Intel® Xeon® E5620 2.40GHz, 12M cache, 5.86 GT/s QPI, Turbo, HT, 4C

There are lots of options ... but go to this:
Dual Intel® Quad Core Xeon® E5620 2.40GHz, 12M cache, 5.86 GT/s QPI, Turbo, HT, 4C
$3,826.60

It comes with:
8GB (4x2GB) DDR3 UDIMM Memory, 1333MHz,ECC
500GB 7200RPM 3.5'' SATA3 Hard Disk Drive
All SATA drives, Non-RAID, 1 drive total configuration
16X max SATA DVD+/-RW with Dual Layer Write Capabilities
256MB NVIDIA Quadro NVS 295 (2DP) (1DP-DVI adapter)
Trend Micro Worry-Free Business Security 3.5 (Multi-Language) 30 Days
No Internal Speaker
Also Includes
Dell Precision T5500 Chassis with TPM

I presume its got 8 memory slots, and I think it has a DVD burner.

The T5500 has 6 DIMM slots, not 8 (triple channel memory controller, so 1 slot per channel per CPU, thus 6).

If it's a T7500, you get 12 DIMM slots (2x per channel per CPU).

They do offer a DVD burner in both machines.

Still a bit confused over your pricing though, as I'm not certain this is a T5500 or a T7500 for certain (those CPU's can be used in either, but they use different boards <one in the T7500 is larger in order to accomodate the additional components soldered to the board, such as 2x the memory slots of the T5500 as well as an LSI 2 port SAS controller chip>).

It does have a cheap 19" monitor though.

You can order the system without a monitor (or at least eliminate it from the price initially for a fairer comparison).

Oh ... then there's the OS. That one is just Windows Pro.

The difference between Ultimate and Pro is Ultimate adds a backup feature, BitLocker (encryption), and easy multi-language support (easy to switch languages as needed). Not worth the money IMHO.

You can get better backup software, and add your own encryption package if needed (I'd go hardware if it were me using a TPM module).

And ... there is no sound card in it either.

It has a built-in audio chip.

Integrated High Definition Audio (Rev 1.0 Specification) implemented with a two-chip audio solution comprised of the ADI 1984a High Definition Audio CODEC and the ICH10's integrated AC97/High Definition digital controller.

Source = Specification section of the T5500.

Add that, and also, there is no wireless in it either, so add that too:

This is correct, as corporations/IT departments do not want wireless communications in the office, as it's a security risk compared to hard wired networking.

It also keeps employees from using their own personal devices on company time, which cannot be tracked as the company doesn't own those systems (no tracking software installed). This also goes back to security, as they can accidentally infect the company's equipment if their system is infected or do something they shouldn't be doing, such as going to very questionable sites that then upload malware when the user clicks on a link.

Thus wireless is a consumer oriented product for the most part (there are some exceptions in the workplace, but it has to be vetted by the IT dept., and there's a strong chance the company owns the equipment the user is operating).

Plus, you don't get Ethernet either ...

Again, this is provided by built-in chips (provides 2x 10/100/1000 Ethernet Ports).

Integrated dual Broadcom® BCM5761 10/100/1000 Gigabit Ethernet controllers

Same source as before.

It does have three year support though.

But ... with Apple, I can take it to dealers and Apple centres all over the place, and they'll fix it and be terrific. With Dell, the experience is devoid of people, and when you talk to them, they are in Singapore.

Dell is onsite, so you do not have to pack the system up and haul it somewhere to be fixed.

Nor is the support in a foreign country as others have mentioned.

What you're thinking of, is the standard support offered on the consumer systems, and the contractors that provides it are usually located in India or Pakistan, not Singapore (cheaper).

And - Dell charge $387 to transfer your data ... which is dead easy to do from Mac to Mac. But I'll leave that cost out ...

It's not hard to do on a Windows system either. Just google how to do it if you're not already familiar (MS put a lot of time and effort to accomplish this, as it was in their own best interest, just as it was for Apple).

I had wanted to buy the 30" Monitor from Dell which was discounted, but the internet played up as i tried to buy. I called Dell on the phone, and several days later, they said they would not honour the deal. I was not overly impressed with them.

Not sure of the details (whether or not the connection issue caused you to miss the deadline was on their end or your ISP provider), but you should ask for a supervisor in such cases, regardless of the actual vendor (manufacturer/system vendor or 3rd party reseller).

Dell is usually pretty good about it, particularly for enterprise customers. 3rd party OTOH, varies wildly in my experience. YMMV.

 

[Melbourne Park]

The T5500 has 6 DIMM slots, not 8 (triple channel memory controller, so 1 slot per channel per CPU, thus 6). You are both right, and wrong. If you upgrade the T5500 to dual CPUs, then you get 2 banks of 4 memory slots. 4 slots per CPU in the twin CPU, and 6 slots for the single, according the Dell vis a vis the cheaper T5500 machine. If I'd used the T7500, then the Dell would have been a whole extra jump in extra cost over the much more expensive than the Mac Pro T5500 ...

If it's a T7500, you get 12 DIMM slots (2x per channel per CPU).

No, it was T5500
They do offer a DVD burner in both machines.
The machine quoted did have the DVD burner, standard. I thought I had said that.
Still a bit confused over your pricing though, as I'm not certain this is a T5500 or a T7500 for certain (those CPU's can be used in either, but they use different boards <one in the T7500 is larger in order to accomodate the additional components soldered to the board, such as 2x the memory slots of the T5500 as well as an LSI 2 port SAS controller chip>).


You can order the system without a monitor (or at least eliminate it from the price initially for a fairer comparison). Not in Australia. You have to take a monitor. The one included is not worth much anyway. Dell™ UltraSharp U2412M 24 Monitor with LED [add $205.70 or $2/week-1]

Dell™ UltraSharp U2410 Widescreen Flat Panel Monitor [add $534.60 or $6/week-1]

Dell™ UltraSharp U2312HM 23" Monitor with LED [add $116.60 or $1/week-1]

Dell™ Professional P2412H 24'' Widescreen Flat Panel Monitor, VGA/DVI [add $121.00 or $1/week-1]

Dell™ Professional P190S Flat Panel LCD Monitor (VGA, DVI-D (HDCP) [add $71.50 or $1/week-1]

Dell™ Professional P170S Flat Panel LCD Monitor (VGA, DVI-D (HDCP) [add $38.50 or $1/week-1]

Dell™ 20" UltraSharp™ (2007FP) Flat Panel LCD Monitor (Analog and DVI) [add $293.70 or $3/week-1]

Dell E Series E1913 19" Wide Screen Monitor with LED Back Light - ANZ [Included in Price]

Dell Professional P2213 22" Wide Screen Monitor with LED Back Light - ANZ [add $110.00 or $1/week-1]

Dell(TM) Professional P2012H 20in HAS Wide Monitor, VGA/DVI [add $49.50 or $1/week-1]

Dell(TM) Professional P2212H 21.5in HAS Wide Monitor, VGA/DVI [add $92.40 or $1/week-1]

Dell(TM) Professional P2312H 23in HAS Wide Monitor, VGA/DVI [add $103.40 or $1/week-1]

Notice there is no option to not buy a monitor. Also, you cannot select a monitor over 24". Internet prices for the 19" are not very high ... but one could take off $100 ... but then, how about the software programs you get with the Apple for free?

The difference between Ultimate and Pro is Ultimate adds a backup feature, BitLocker (encryption), and easy multi-language support (easy to switch languages as needed). Not worth the money IMHO.
But you get the ultimate with OS X, and the back up solutions offered worked brilliantly on the Mac Pros. And I did not mention either, that upgrading the OS in OS X is cheap to do. And I did not mention either, that there are easy to use photo, video and other apps included in Apple's OS.
You can get better backup software, and add your own encryption package if needed (I'd go hardware if it were me using a TPM module).
OS X ships with a back solution, hence I upgraded to the better Windows software. Just comparing Apples with Apples (couldn't resist).

It has a built-in audio chip.

​

Source = Specification section of the T5500.


This is correct, as corporations/IT departments do not want wireless communications in the office, as it's a security risk compared to hard wired networking.

It also keeps employees from using their own personal devices on company time, which cannot be tracked as the company doesn't own those systems (no tracking software installed). This also goes back to security, as they can accidentally infect the company's equipment if their system is infected or do something they shouldn't be doing, such as going to very questionable sites that then upload malware when the user clicks on a link.

Nothing worse than crooked employees I guess ... shame about all the honest ones out there though.
Thus wireless is a consumer oriented product for the most part (there are some exceptions in the workplace, but it has to be vetted by the IT dept., and there's a strong chance the company owns the equipment the user is operating).
Fact is, Apple provides two ethernet outlets - wireless, bluetooth (I did not add that either), included in the price. The Dell has:
"Integrated Broadcom(R) 5761 Gigabit Ethernet Controller"
They offer solutions more like Apple's here:
Either -
- None
- Broadcom (R) 10/100/1000 Ethernet Networking LAN solution [add $63.80 or $1/week-1]
- 1505 wireless Networking LAN solution(Full height) - APCC [add $122.10 or $1/week-1]
- Dell™ 1520 Wireless Network Card (Full Height) [add $95.70 or $1/week-1]

The Dell may have a controller on board, but according to Dell, if you do not select the Broadcom, then you will have "none". It appears that its not straightforward to order both either.

People here have been saying Dell is much cheaper. They are not in Australia. But their monitors are cheaper though.

Again, this is provided by built-in chips (provides 2x 10/100/1000 Ethernet Ports).

​

Same source as before.

Dell is onsite, so you do not have to pack the system up and haul it somewhere to be fixed.

Nor is the support in a foreign country as others have mentioned.

What you're thinking of, is the standard support offered on the consumer systems, and the contractors that provides it are usually located in India or Pakistan, not Singapore (cheaper).

I am aware that the support is onsite - Next Business Day. If you want rapid response, then add $600. Australian providers can also do on site for Apple, and its cheaper than that. However its not directly Apple.

But note: we are looking at two different business models. Apple sells in actuallity a single configuration of machine, with some minor architectural differences in the few choices available. And they are extremely reliable, and simple to know, diagnose and maintain therefore. This also means that the lower cost machines are better value, in reality the current Mac Pro case comes for nothing in lower end Mac Pros. I think that the Mac Pro all alloy case is more costly to manufacture than Dell's T5500 case.

Dell sells a huge conglomeration of machines, and issues will happen with them. And if its a third party com card, you'll pay for it if service finds its not a proper Dell warranty item. And the warranty is hardware, while 99% of warranty issues are network related. Followed by software ... Dell won't cover you for those either. In fact, if they come out, and its not a Dell hardware issue, they'll charge you heaps for the call out.

It's not hard to do on a Windows system either. Just google how to do it if you're not already familiar (MS put a lot of time and effort to accomplish this, as it was in their own best interest, just as it was for Apple).
Obviously since Dell charges almost $400 for it, its just a Dell rip off then??? Apple charges one quarter, and a dealer will typically do it for nothing. If I compared both, then the Dell would go out a further $300 more expensive.

Not sure of the details (whether or not the connection issue caused you to miss the deadline was on their end or your ISP provider), but you should ask for a supervisor in such cases, regardless of the actual vendor (manufacturer/system vendor or 3rd party reseller).

I went above supervisor ... the manager reported back to me, three days later. All people I spoke to were in Singapore ... I am in Australia, by the way. Although, often one gets Apple support in the USA - typically in Texas. But IMO at least, Apple's understanding of the English language is better than the Singaporians. Apple personnel in Texas even know our "slang" language, and some of our jokes. The very serious Singaporians, are a world away in communication ability as far as Australians are concerned.

Dell is usually pretty good about it, particularly for enterprise customers. 3rd party OTOH, varies wildly in my experience. YMMV.

Anyway I cannot even get onto the keyboard and mouse choices, or anything else, because the site hangs ... just like it did when I tried to buy the 30" monitor from Dell. And I checked with another browser, and another computer ... and Dell's site hangs when you try to go beyond the speaker choice dialogues.

I've only posted here because someone challenged me that Dell was much cheaper. I said not always so, when you add the extras up. The ticket price on a Dell is only for a bare bones workstation. Add a couple of equivalency items, and the price of Dell explodes. Do not judge Dell's prices by their advertised prices. Remember, that they include an important word at the beginning of their price claims: Online Price From $2544. Of course, its around $4,500, for a dual CPU 2.4 Mhz machine.

With Apple, Mac Pros can be great value. And that is ignoring their superb construction, ease of access and longevity. Not to mention their OS. And heck ... Mac Pros even maintain more than their depreciated value (just look in comparison at how Dells depreciate hugely). Extraordinary ...

 

[hajime]

I had configured an Hp 820z workstation, and the Hp was actually $300.00 more after my Disney Discount. I'm happy so far.

Hi Tony, is the 820z faster than the Mac Pro? Is it silent? I am considering the two machines for running Windows.

 

[nanofrog]

Anyway I cannot even get onto the keyboard and mouse choices, or anything else, because the site hangs ... just like it did when I tried to buy the 30" monitor from Dell. And I checked with another browser, and another computer ... and Dell's site hangs when you try to go beyond the speaker choice dialogues.

I've only posted here because someone challenged me that Dell was much cheaper. I said not always so, when you add the extras up. The ticket price on a Dell is only for a bare bones workstation. Add a couple of equivalency items, and the price of Dell explodes. Do not judge Dell's prices by their advertised prices. Remember, that they include an important word at the beginning of their price claims: Online Price From $2544. Of course, its around $4,500, for a dual CPU 2.4 Mhz machine.

With Apple, Mac Pros can be great value. And that is ignoring their superb construction, ease of access and longevity. Not to mention their OS. And heck ... Mac Pros even maintain more than their depreciated value (just look in comparison at how Dells depreciate hugely). Extraordinary ...

Where are you located? I ask, as that can make a significant difference as well.

As per parity on options, users will typically want a 3rd party option anyway, especially if they use that system most of, if not the entire day (i.e. ergonomic keyboard, and employers are more willing these days due to Repetitive Strain Injuries <more expensive in terms of lost time, increased insurance rates if there's a claim,...>).

In regard to depreciation, the funny thing is the hardware used to create it are made using the same commodity components (chips, resistors, ...) that other boards use (no magic, unicorn hair, or any other supernatural bits that make it special in this regard). So it leaves the industrial design, those that need OSX, and smaller market share to help keep the resale values up.

No way to know if this will continue to be the case though, as more and more members are becoming more conscious of the price and capability between MP's and other similar systems, as well as whether or not OSX offers a particular advantage to another OS, depending on their specific needs (value aspect is taken into account).

 

[Melbourne Park]

Where are you located? I ask, as that can make a significant difference as well.

As per parity on options, users will typically want a 3rd party option anyway, especially if they use that system most of, if not the entire day (i.e. ergonomic keyboard, and employers are more willing these days due to Repetitive Strain Injuries <more expensive in terms of lost time, increased insurance rates if there's a claim,...>).

In regard to depreciation, the funny thing is the hardware used to create it are made using the same commodity components (chips, resistors, ...) that other boards use (no magic, unicorn hair, or any other supernatural bits that make it special in this regard). So it leaves the industrial design, those that need OSX, and smaller market share to help keep the resale values up.

No way to know if this will continue to be the case though, as more and more members are becoming more conscious of the price and capability between MP's and other similar systems, as well as whether or not OSX offers a particular advantage to another OS, depending on their specific needs (value aspect is taken into account).

I am located in Melbourne, Australia. I have no internet issues. The connection is cable internet, and the speed is fast for a conventional non fibre cable.

I agree about hardware. However, its not that simple. Dells have different prices too, and appear to have the same hardware. And a Golf is just like an Audi on paper. And yes, we use Razor keyboard and mice at home for the Windoze machine I put together.

Although, all alloy cases are not so usual in the PC world. Apple has lead in the computer machining of a single block of unique alloy, which via work hardening resultant from milling of the single alloy block, results in a stiffer structure. But the process is much slower in production speed (hence more costly) than with the processes used by cost chasing PC makers. The Apple notebooks and Pads exhibit this technology. Alloy in a workstation benefits cooling, and hence aids quietness. Its also lighter, although the Mac Pro is a heavy box despite its alloy construction.

Also Apple obtained exclusive Australian sources of a particular alloy, for such Pad and notebook resources, which is particularly beneficial for their technology. It was Microsoft who reported that Apple's pursuit of the best materials was something that cost limitations in Windows machine makers were prohibited from pursuing. Hence MS's new mini notebook / Pad with the keyboard in its cover - MS said that their manufacturers were not prepared to pursue such innovations. Hence MS have done it themselves.

As far as depreciation goes with Apple, the key to their retained value, is supply and demand. Economics 101. It is that simple.

How come? People hang onto their Macs. Look at many of the posters here. Many have old machines, and they still use them. Mac Pro users ( and also I suspect iMac users) do use their desktops far longer than other brands of computers. They are built to last, and they do. Since less are sold second hand, that increases their used value. And those that are sold second hand, typically are working well.

That does not apply to all Apple products though. I think the phones would drop in value enormously. It just depends on the product.

As far as Windoze goes, it just depends. Certainly OS X is a niche - but its stronger than its ever been before. And curiously, its underlying Unix base provides it with something Windows simply lacks. IOS is a form of OS X too. And at last count, IOS is not unpopular.

And anyhow, Mac users can use Windows if they have to. Its not easy though to run OS X with a Dell. And the worse thing is, Windows is such a rip off. Win sells for 20 times what it would sell for, if there wasn't a monopoly. Windows users should be thank full that OS X and Linux exist. If they did not, they'd be paying $1,000 for a copy of Win XP.