Xeon coming to laptops (and Mac Mini?)

[Toltepeceno]

It doesn't matter whether people are making more money or not (that's a whole other discussion of salaries vs cost of living). The costs of goods and services have gone up by X% over the time span.

It absolutely does matter. If someone was more able to buy a mac pro at 2000 than they are the current one at 30000. That's exactly the point.

"You realize that 2k in say 1995 is equivalent to over 3K today right?"

If the person's salary has not gone up by over 50% and the price of the product has then it's in no way equivalent. Inflation and wage increase BOTH factor in when figuring if it is equivalent or not.

Once you begin maxing out the Mini...
Maxed out Mini: 2199 USD
MacPro, Quad Core, 16GB, 1TB SSD: 3899 USD.
At least, the Pro can still be upgraded (for a price).

I'm not sure what your point is. The person I replied to said instead of getting a mini, get a pro. If someone is looking for a mini with the xeon chip then they are not worried about or need a maxed out a pro, probably either because it's out of their range or they are already looking at a pro and laughing a mini. Who buys a mini that needs a maxed out pro, so really no use comparing the two. The xeon in a mini would be nice, very doubtful though.

Comparing a computer, like the mini, with laptop parts with a computer like the pro is silly to begin with.

 

[paulrbeers]

Where is the citation for 47W? For example, the intel website has a i7-6700K with 14nm lithography released 2015 Q3 (ie, yesterday) but it runs at 91W which is a lot more than 47W. And by the way, the case is 3.75cm square!

The new Intel Xeon 1500-e3s are 47w processors designed for mobile workstations. We are not talking about the desktop i7s. Do you even read before posting?!?!?

 

[paulrbeers]

It absolutely does matter. If someone was more able to buy a mac pro at 2000 than they are the current one at 30000. That's exactly the point.

"You realize that 2k in say 1995 is equivalent to over 3K today right?"

If the person's salary has not gone up by over 50% and the price of the product has then it's in no way equivalent. Inflation and wage increase BOTH factor in when figuring if it is equivalent or not.



I

No a persons ability to buy is a factor in being able to purchase a good. That doesn't change the fact that the cost to make the good in question is directly related to the cost of the materials to make the good. Just because one can't afford it, doesn't change the fact that due to inflation the cost to produce the item has gone up. Inflation is not a comparison of the increase in cost of goods and services relative to the increase in salary. That's actually a measurement called a persons "real wage" which as a country hasn't gone up in decades and based on this information below our real wage of 1995 for a 2k is the same today for a computer that is 3k.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...rs-real-wages-have-barely-budged-for-decades/

So again inflation is what we are discussing and therefore it is correct to say that a 2k computer from 1995 is now worth 3k by today's dollar value.

 

[grcar]

Here in mexico the mac pro starts at 55,000 pesos which is 3,666.00 at this time.

I have never understood why apple charges more outside the US. For example, in Belgium the base mac pro is EU 3449 (ouch). The machines all come from china anyway.

 

[grcar]

The new Intel Xeon 1500-e3s are 47w processors designed for mobile workstations. Do you even read before posting?!?!?

Where is the description of the xeon chip specs on the intel web site?

 

[grcar]

Engadget has a post talking about Intel bring the Xeon to pro laptops.

So the original question is, will Apple put these new xeon chips in macbooks and macminis? I suppose they will have to but it will really bend the apple designers out of shape.

There is a review of the lenovo thinkpad p70 at http://www.techradar.com/us/reviews/pc-mac/laptops-portable-pcs/lenovo-thinkpad-p70-1301484/review

Turns out the skylake xeon chips are not that easy to cool even if they do run at 47W. Here is a picture of the fans (2) and heat sink in that thinkpad:

Try putting that in your 0.75 inch thick macbook pro. The thinkpad weighs 7.5 pounds and is 1.2 inches thick. In other words, the thinkpad is three times heavier than a macmini and almost as thick. A real brick.

Apple would have to pay an army of engineers to get the big piece of metal into a thin, elegant box. Not gonna happen anytime soon.

 

[paulrbeers]

So the original question is, will Apple put these new xeon chips in macbooks and macminis? I suppose they will have to but it will really bend the apple designers out of shape.

There is a review of the lenovo thinkpad p70 at http://www.techradar.com/us/reviews/pc-mac/laptops-portable-pcs/lenovo-thinkpad-p70-1301484/review

Turns out the skylake xeon chips are not that easy to cool even if they do run at 47W. Here is a picture of the fans (2) and heat sink in that thinkpad:

View attachment 575090

Try putting that in your 0.75 inch thick macbook pro. The thinkpad weighs 7.5 pounds and is 1.2 inches thick. In other words, the thinkpad is three times heavier than a macmini and almost as thick. A real brick.

Apple would have to pay an army of engineers to get the big piece of metal into a thin, elegant box. Not gonna happen anytime soon.

So you can do a bit of research on your own! I guess you found your answer!

 

[paulrbeers]

I have never understood why apple charges more outside the US. For example, in Belgium the base mac pro is EU 3449 (ouch). The machines all come from china anyway.

It's called VAT and can add 20% to the cost of the unit, I'm surprised this is news to you. And there is this variable dollar to X currency so Apple has to figure out a number that protects them from having large swings in variation and having to change the pricing structure every day. In the USA the tax (ie out VAT) is not included in the price. We pay it after. Take 3450 - 21% gives you 2725. 2756 x 1.11 (Euro to dollar rate) = 2998. That's actually less than we to the 2999 we pay in the USA! It's probably good to understand the basics to your tax structure....

The more you know!

 

[Miat]

I don't need twin discrete GPUs, not even close, certainly not at 3-4 times the price of a Mini.

I don't even need one discrete GPU. The current mid-range iGPUs easily cover it for me.

 

[Toltepeceno]

No a persons ability to buy is a factor in being able to purchase a good. That doesn't change the fact that the cost to make the good in question is directly related to the cost of the materials to make the good. Just because one can't afford it, doesn't change the fact that due to inflation the cost to produce the item has gone up. Inflation is not a comparison of the increase in cost of goods and services relative to the increase in salary. That's actually a measurement called a persons "real wage" which as a country hasn't gone up in decades and based on this information below our real wage of 1995 for a 2k is the same today for a computer that is 3k.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...rs-real-wages-have-barely-budged-for-decades/

So again inflation is what we are discussing and therefore it is correct to say that a 2k computer from 1995 is now worth 3k by today's dollar value.

Spin it however you want, it still cost's a lot of people more to buy today's mac pro at 3000.00 than it did to buy a 2000.00 mac pro in 1995 because inflation has risen more than wages for most and that is the point. Pointing to figures on a website does nothing to lessen that.

Also, if wages are not going up with inflation then that means profit margins are going up, not the manufacturing prices.


Where does pew note rising costs of items made in china again? Your link does not note products made in china. The mac pro is made in china and assembled here only. That link is totally irrelevant except for the wages part.

 

[redheeler]

buy a 2000.00 mac pro in 1995

There was no such thing as a Mac Pro in 1995, you do realize

 

[Toltepeceno]

There was no such thing as a Mac Pro in 1995, you do realize

Yea, It was originally "in the old old days the top of the line beige desk-side unit maxed out around $2k". Since the discussion was pertaining to inflation and cost I misspoke and used mac pro for 1995 AND the new version. I was concentrating on the price and not the item so thanks for pointing that out.

The point is that the point, and the link, that paul pointed out is irrelevant since the mac pro is made in china and assembled here. That is a country where the average wage is somewhere around 4000.00 and here it's more like 50000. There's no way prices of manufacture have gone up in china in line with wages and cost of manufacture here. Were mac's made in china in 1995? I think profit line has gone up far more than manufacturing costs of things made in china.

 

[Toltepeceno]

Try putting that in your 0.75 inch thick macbook pro. The thinkpad weighs 7.5 pounds and is 1.2 inches thick. In other words, the thinkpad is three times heavier than a macmini and almost as thick. A real brick.

Apple would have to pay an army of engineers to get the big piece of metal into a thin, elegant box. Not gonna happen anytime soon.

I could go for a larger mini with that inside, with that being said apple's obsession thinner that will not happen. I understand the draw for a small desktop (with laptop internals) but since it's stationary a little larger would not hurt if it means more power. Apple is going the less power route, so fugedaboudit.

 

[Toltepeceno]

It's called VAT and can add 20% to the cost of the unit, I'm surprised this is news to you. And there is this variable dollar to X currency so Apple has to figure out a number that protects them from having large swings in variation and having to change the pricing structure every day. In the USA the tax (ie out VAT) is not included in the price. We pay it after. Take 3450 - 21% gives you 2725. 2756 x 1.11 (Euro to dollar rate) = 2998. That's actually less than we to the 2999 we pay in the USA! It's probably good to understand the basics to your tax structure....

The more you know!

In the usa there are a lot of good places to by from where you pay no tax, do you have that option there?


Here in mexico the price is far more than iva. Iva is 16% so the price for a base iphone 6 for example is over 800.00 which is about 100.00 us over the us price plus iva. Mac's are closer to 200.00 over, so we are paying a premium ver us prices. Not to mention in the us you can buy from places like b&h and pay below apple's price on most stuff plus no tax. Here it cost the same everywhere, no deviation.

The factory that makes dremels is about 15 minutes away from where we live. These same dremels sell cheaper in the us, by far more than iva.

The options are much better there. B&H, excellent business with the same warranty. Base mac pro 2,799 shipped. Here it's 3,666. anywhere and everywhere. Close to 900.00 us difference. It's still more expensive on apple usa, but all options count when they are authorized apple resellers. Even if they are not it doesn't matter, I got a new ipad mini from ebay usa from an non authorized seller and it's registered with warranty.

I don't think this conversation is going anywhere though, some just wave the apple pom pom's no matter what.

 

[paulrbeers]

In the usa there are a lot of good places to by from where you pay no tax, do you have that option there?


Here in mexico the price is far more than iva. Iva is 16% so the price for a base iphone 6 for example is over 800.00 which is about 100.00 us over the us price plus iva. Mac's are closer to 200.00 over, so we are paying a premium ver us prices. Not to mention in the us you can buy from places like b&h and pay below apple's price on most stuff plus no tax. Here it cost the same everywhere, no deviation.

The factory that makes dremels is about 15 minutes away from where we live. These same dremels sell cheaper in the us, by far more than iva.

The options are much better there. B&H, excellent business with the same warranty. Base mac pro 2,799 shipped. Here it's 3,666. anywhere and everywhere. Close to 900.00 us difference. It's still more expensive on apple usa, but all options count when they are authorized apple resellers. Even if they are not it doesn't matter, I got a new ipad mini from ebay usa from an non authorized seller and it's registered with warranty.

I don't think this conversation is going anywhere though, some just wave the apple pom pom's no matter what.

No I just point out the ridiculousness of certain comments. I bet if the person complaining about the price in Europe, probably could find a shop to sell them cheaper than Apple too (just like BHPhoto here). And I was comparing NON taxed costs in my example. So whether you can get them with or without tax it doesn't change the fact that in Belgium vs the USA the Base price (what Apple makes) are exactly the same price.

As for your costs in Mexico, I can't speak to what Apple is or isn't trying to do....

But I did run the numbers on a base iPhone 6 16GB 11999 - 16% IVA tax = 10343 and Dollar vs Peso is 16.4 per google. That means that the base cost of an iPhone 6 = $630. Buddy, I hate to tell you this, but that's cheaper than buying an iPhone outright here in the states. I know because I paid $649 for mine.

So what are you complaining about?

EDIT: And that Mac Pro: 54999 - 16% IVA = 47412 / 16.4 = $2890 which is less than Apple is selling it for. Again if you want to compare resellers, I bet you could find a reseller in Mexico willing to sell it for less than the Apple Store as well. So doing Apple to Apple comparison, the Mac Pro is cheaper in Mexico.

 

[paulrbeers]

Spin it however you want, it still cost's a lot of people more to buy today's mac pro at 3000.00 than it did to buy a 2000.00 mac pro in 1995 because inflation has risen more than wages for most and that is the point. Pointing to figures on a website does nothing to lessen that.

Also, if wages are not going up with inflation then that means profit margins are going up, not the manufacturing prices.


Where does pew note rising costs of items made in china again? Your link does not note products made in china. The mac pro is made in china and assembled here only. That link is totally irrelevant except for the wages part.

% of a salary may be and I've conceded that. That doesn't mean it costs Apple less to build just because people can't afford as much does it? Intel isn't going to just give Apple cheaper processors just because the end user "can't afford" the expensive Xeon processor are they? What about the Flash Memory used it, is Samsung going to sell the controllers to apple cheaper just because the consumer who buys the computer is less likely to be able to afford it? No. Inflation is the costs of goods relative to the cost of the previous year. Whether salaries are rising to meet inflation is a different factor.

With that said, my parents bought their first Mac in 1985 and paid 1900 for it (a special educator deal rather than the usual 2500). That was wayyy more % of either of their salaries than what a base Mac Pro is today compared to my salary.

 

[wiredup72]

So the original question is, will Apple put these new xeon chips in macbooks and macminis? I suppose they will have to but it will really bend the apple designers out of shape.

There is a review of the lenovo thinkpad p70 at http://www.techradar.com/us/reviews/pc-mac/laptops-portable-pcs/lenovo-thinkpad-p70-1301484/review

Turns out the skylake xeon chips are not that easy to cool even if they do run at 47W. Here is a picture of the fans (2) and heat sink in that thinkpad:

View attachment 575090

Try putting that in your 0.75 inch thick macbook pro. The thinkpad weighs 7.5 pounds and is 1.2 inches thick. In other words, the thinkpad is three times heavier than a macmini and almost as thick. A real brick.

Apple would have to pay an army of engineers to get the big piece of metal into a thin, elegant box. Not gonna happen anytime soon.

All they have to do is make an aluminum case for the mini, just like the pro, and let the entire chassis be the heat sync. They have done it once, why not do it again? It's not rocket science (well, technically all those advancements are from rocket science, but, you know )

 

[ActionableMango]

I don't understand what the point would be. The Xeon brings, what, more cores and ECC support? Apple dropped the number of available cores in the latest model; if they wanted to add them back, there would be a quad core i7. And who the hell needs ECC RAM support in a Mac Mini? Most the people with Mac Pros don't even make use of the ECC ram.

 

[Toltepeceno]

As for your costs in Mexico, I can't speak to what Apple is or isn't trying to do....

But I did run the numbers on a base iPhone 6 16GB 11999 - 16% IVA tax = 10343 and Dollar vs Peso is 16.4 per google. That means that the base cost of an iPhone 6 = $630. Buddy, I hate to tell you this, but that's cheaper than buying an iPhone outright here in the states. I know because I paid $649 for mine.

So what are you complaining about?

EDIT: And that Mac Pro: 54999 - 16% IVA = 47412 / 16.4 = $2890 which is less than Apple is selling it for. Again if you want to compare resellers, I bet you could find a reseller in Mexico willing to sell it for less than the Apple Store as well. So doing Apple to Apple comparison, the Mac Pro is cheaper in Mexico.

I am retired, I worked some years in the us and get a small retirement from there. The actual exchange rate is nothing near 16.40. In fact 16.40 is higher than usual. I just checked the ACTUAL rate and it's a little under 16. pesos. I based my post on 16 to a dollar which is reality and still higher than normal. That's the most I can get, most bank deposits give you less and they are not charging a percentage. It's just the *real world* exchange rate.

What does paying 2000 in 1985 have to do with anything? You were talking about 2000. in 1995 and with the china manufacturing they are probably paying the same now as they did back then if the stuff was made in the us. That's why their shareholders are so happy.

You are blowing smoke out your backside. Sanbourns, sams club, costco, liverpool, mixup, bestbuy there are only a handfull of places that sell apple stuff and they are all the same price. Even windows boxes are more expensive and less powerful here. Now you are spewing something you know nothing about. Mercado libre you may see a lower price but they are scams. It's not protected like ebay.

% of a salary may be and I've conceded that. That doesn't mean it costs Apple less to build just because people can't afford as much does it? Intel isn't going to just give Apple cheaper processors just because the end user "can't afford" the expensive Xeon processor are they?

What ridiculous blather. Nobody said anything about giving anything away and I guarantee you apple a far less increase for china manufacturing than someone that has a plant in the us. That's the point, try thinking. Manufacturing costs do not go up in china like they do here so your blathering about paying high manufacturing costs is just fanboyism.

I'm done with you, have a good life. Unbelievable, you even think you know my country better than I, then again we ARE just dumb grown skinned people, right? Typical.

 

[paulrbeers]

I am retired, I worked some years in the us and get a small retirement from there. The actual exchange rate is nothing near 16.40. In fact 16.40 is higher than usual. I just checked the ACTUAL rate and it's a little under 16. pesos. I based my post on 16 to a dollar which is reality and still higher than normal. That's the most I can get, most bank deposits give you less and they are not charging a percentage. It's just the *real world* exchange rate.

What does paying 2000 in 1985 have to do with anything? You were talking about 2000. in 1995 and with the china manufacturing they are probably paying the same now as they did back then if the stuff was made in the us. That's why their shareholders are so happy.

You are blowing smoke out your backside. Sanbourns, sams club, costco, liverpool, mixup, bestbuy there are only a handfull of places that sell apple stuff and they are all the same price. Even windows boxes are more expensive and less powerful here. Now you are spewing something you know nothing about. Mercado libre you may see a lower price but they are scams. It's not protected like ebay.



What ridiculous blather. Nobody said anything about giving anything away and I guarantee you apple a far less increase for china manufacturing than someone that has a plant in the us. That's the point, try thinking. Manufacturing costs do not go up in china like they do here so your blathering about paying high manufacturing costs is just fanboyism.

I'm done with you, have a good life. Unbelievable, you even think you know my country better than I, then again we ARE just dumb grown skinned people, right? Typical.

It's really not worth arguing but Google states today the exchange rate is 16.37 and yesterday it was 16.4. Attached is a screen shot. So just stop. I've proven you wrong over and over again. Because a handful or apple resellers give us a couple hundred dollars in break that makes it all of $100 cheaper than you can buy it in Mexico, doesn't mean Apple is somehow gauging you in Mexico.

I'm sorry that you are bumbed out about the the state of the economy in your country and I'm sorry that you can't understand basic economics. And YES you basically were stating Apple and their suppliers shouldn't care about inflation because less people can afford things (inessence give stuff away regardless what it actually costs). None of your points carry any water.

 

[DesertSurfer]

Whatever happened to Xeon and the mini? Is this MacEcon I'm reading?

 

[ixxx69]

Whatever happened to Xeon and the mini? Is this MacEcon I'm reading?

Agree, but the whole thread is silly. There is ZERO chance of a Xeon going into a mini. The Xeon is on the other side of the universe of how Apple positions the mini. It's unlikely it would go into ANY Mac unless Intel significantly shuffles their CPU lineup.

 

[Moonjumper]

Agree, but the whole thread is silly. There is ZERO chance of a Xeon going into a mini. The Xeon is on the other side of the universe of how Apple positions the mini. It's unlikely it would go into ANY Mac unless Intel significantly shuffles their CPU lineup.

Unfortunately yes. I wish the mythical xMac was real.

 

[DesertSurfer]

Unfortunately yes. I wish the mythical xMac was real.

Reluctantly I must concur. And yet, the new Mac Mini is almost certainly coming. ⏳

 

[throAU]

I can't see Intel doing this, unless they get the power and cooling sorted. Xeon's have always been targeted at servers and workstations and while power has become a massive issue in the data centre, it's not a big an issue as it is for laptops.

Unless the industry is going towards higher core counts and support for large amounts of RAM in laptops this is not going to fly. It's also very unlikely to appear in the Mini considering Apple scaled the last one down - the want you to buy an iMac. They don't even want you to buy a Mac Pro really, it's all about iMac.

You know that just enabling ECC firmware support and support for 64 GB (which is basically all these new Xeons are) is likely just a few feature tick-boxes intel need to enable right?

These CPUs may be called Xeon, but you're not going to be seeing other Xeon features like 20 cores and 20 MB of L2 cache here.

They will be largely the same as a mobile i7 with ECC support and a couple of minor feature cripple tweaks removed.

Intel has made low power Xeons for a few years now.


edit:
It would not surprise me in the slightest to see this Xeon as an option or maybe standard CPU in the 15" Macbook Pro. ECC is a "Pro" feature and for people who require ECC support, the current Macbook Pros (and any other portable) are immediately ruled out until now.

I don't think some people understand just how important ECC is for fields such as scientific research, etc. - even if the user doesn't need a million cores and terabytes of memory. Regular machine with no ECC = maybe your machine crashes, you get a wierd glitch in something, etc. Scientific research for example, a memory glitch can affect processing of experiment test results.