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MacLadybug

macrumors 6502a
Jun 6, 2008
633
28
Thanks for the info!

You problem was not that you didn't do the upload first, it was in your workflow. It one time the files were on a camera memory card. You need a workflow that backs up data. For example you copy them to (say) iPhoto, then let Time Machine back that up and then at the time time burn a CD and ONLY them with three copies of the files in hand would you erase the memory card.

The rule is (2) Three copies of the data on three media and (2) two geographical locations.

You current system is NOT very redundant. Not if all the data is in one building. At the very least buy a fire safe.

How could I not have thought of that. I do have a fire safe and tomorrow backups will go into it. We also have a safety deposit box at our bank that has our wills, etc. and we never use it for anything else. I'll put copies there too. I don't have a large amount of data/photos like you professionals, but what I have is important business wise and the photos sentimental. I never want to go through the experience of losing it again.
 

ajpl

macrumors regular
Oct 9, 2008
219
0
I always find that HDs are never big enough to easily back my data up to multiple locations. Why - currently I have about 20 HDs under my desk, many 1TB, the others 500G.
So that's at least 10 large ext HDS that need to be copied to elsewhere.

As for uploading stuff to say SmugMug, I worked out that it would take so long I'd probably acumulate at least as much again before uploading finished!
High speed broadband!! Not for uploads it isn't! :mad:
 

ipedro

macrumors 603
Original poster
Nov 30, 2004
6,306
8,717
Toronto, ON
Updated system

So I went ahead and updated my backup system.

1) I added a Kensington lock to the Time Capsule. My main backup was easily compromised by theft.
2) I replaced the second Time Machine HDD (Time Machine isn't made for multiple backups so I gave up on the workarounds) with a Carbon Copy Clone in my safety deposit box, which also holds my first Aperture Vault.
3) I replicated those copies, and store them in my girlfriend's apartment.

I think now I can breath knowing that my data is tripled in 3 different locations + my most important work is also stored on my photo site in full resolution. :D

New diagram:
 

sl1200mk2

macrumors 6502
Oct 17, 2006
320
3
Some nice setups here. Personally, I'm comfortable with having a couple 1TB external drives rotating them between home and work and using Mozy to backup everything to a 3rd source in the cloud.

I'd love to add a pair of Drobo's with 4 1TB drives sometime next year when I convert my large vinyl record collection to digital over the next couple years.

Thanks for sharing -

Wayne
 

CarlsonCustoms

macrumors 6502
Mar 5, 2007
387
0
Here's what I do...

500gig internal in Imac.. just system files and applications
1TB external TimeMachine Backup drive

Drobo with 4 1tb drives.. holds all my documents, photos, music, videos , EVERYTHING

Promise NAS holding 4 500gig drives holding backup of Drobo and Timemachine

I do plan on moving the NAS to a friends apartment across my yard so if my building burns down but his stays unburnt I'll still have everything (i plan on putting another router in his apartment so I can just extend my network there)

I have considered uploading my precious photos to Amazon's S3 service

zack
 

romanaz

macrumors regular
Aug 24, 2008
214
0
NJ
I know mine isn't redundant enough, but it suits my needs and I am nearly prepared enough for the worst.

I got my macbook pro doing a time machine backup to a LaCie 250 I keep on my school desk, and another LaCie 250 at my parents house that I backup when I go there once a week or two. I have yet another LaCie 250 that is my non-time machine backup and its a portable drive, with a copy of that 250 drive in my desk. On top of that I have a 1TB LaCie that I do my work stuff off of, with another 1TB LaCie sitting next to it that is backed up at the end of every work day. I also back up all my photo's once a week to my MobileMe. Also, all my photo's and personal videos are on my iPod video.

What I would REALLY love to do is drop my superdrive out and put a 250 WD drive in to do a time machine backup inside the machine.
 

raxafarian

macrumors regular
Jun 8, 2007
113
0
I have a 500gb drive in my mbp.

I use one 1TB external for time machine.
I then make a superduper bootable backup to a different external drive.

Both of those drives sit on my desk at home.

I also have 2 small 500gb G-Drive mini's that I backup to with superduper (also bootable). One of these travels with me (able to boot and use it if the internal drive dies while on the road) and the other is kept at work.
 

stagi

macrumors 65816
Feb 18, 2006
1,125
0
Thats a pretty good backup system! I have a Ready NAS drive for my main drive in studio that is setup in a RAID and then online offsite backup, its easy and lets me sleep at night
 

pprior

macrumors 65816
Aug 1, 2007
1,448
9
My aperture library is on a separate hard drive
That drive is backed up via time machine to a DROBO

Aperture Vault 1 - stored on same DROBO (different partition)
Aperture Vault 2 - External hot swap drive, rotated into firesafe on property
Aperture Vault 3 - Same as #2 (2 drives rotated in and out of the safe)
Aperture Vault 4 - On a NAS in my basement (raid5)
MOZY - offsite backup of my photos. Dog slow, but eventually gets there.

I need to do more with offsite backup, and I really would like to get a bluray burner and some high capacity DVD burns. I never backup my initial RAW captures when importing, which I REALLY NEED to do, but given I will frequently shoot 8-12GB at a time, it's been too much hassle to do this on standard DVD.

I try to run the vault backup as soon as I do imports. but lately Aperture has been flakey and so I'm trying to migrate to LR and i know it has an auto backup on import option as well.
 

heron88

macrumors 6502
Jun 16, 2008
278
0
pileOfCDs.jpg


very redundant. they are in different physical locations (scattered all over my house)
 

ipedro

macrumors 603
Original poster
Nov 30, 2004
6,306
8,717
Toronto, ON
^ not very reliable. Before HDD's came down in price, I used to backup everything on DVDs. On occasion, I'd retrieve a DVD to get to a file, only to discover that the DVD isn't readable. I would then have to scramble around looking for another copy.

Multiple HDDs onsite, offsite and in the cloud is the way to go.
 

maestrokev

macrumors 6502a
Apr 23, 2007
875
8
Canada
^ not very reliable. Before HDD's came down in price, I used to backup everything on DVDs. On occasion, I'd retrieve a DVD to get to a file, only to discover that the DVD isn't readable. I would then have to scramble around looking for another copy.

Multiple HDDs onsite, offsite and in the cloud is the way to go.

Be sure to check with your TD branch, not all banks have waterproof and heat resistant safes for electronic data - I had to ask around at several Royal Bank and TDCT. Also don't put your hard drive in any plastic bags/Ziploc or such material that can melt easily. Now that safe prices have come down so much, I also have one at home.

I also use Mozy, Carbonite and ZumoDrive to store in the cloud.

We have similar backup strategies. It's too bad most people don't think about protecting their photos/video - only thing I can't replace with home insurance.
 
^ not very reliable. Before HDD's came down in price, I used to backup everything on DVDs. On occasion, I'd retrieve a DVD to get to a file, only to discover that the DVD isn't readable. I would then have to scramble around looking for another copy.

Multiple HDDs onsite, offsite and in the cloud is the way to go.

Completely untrue. High quality DVD's are far more reliable than HD's especially if you do multiple back ups. It just take more work backing up on them. If you were runnning into DVD's that didnt work that often then you either werent verifying your burns, you were using crappy media or you have serious problems with either your burner or your computer.
 
expensive backup solution as well...

You can say that again. It would cost me 50,000 dollars to back up all of my pictures like that. Look I have nothing against any of the back up methods. I have already stated if you have a small collection and can afford it than HD's are a perfectly acceptable back up system . However some people keep making these ridiculous claims that not only are HD's more reliable but DVD's are not reliable at all. Its completely untrue. HD failure rates massively exceed DVD failure rates.

Its very simple. If you use high quality DVDs and verify your burns, Make multiple back ups (2 or 3), use archival materials to store them and keep a dehumidifying device stored with them then your DVD's are going to last you at least 30+ years. The odds that you run into a bad disc are going to be low, the odds that you run into a bad disc and then find your back ups bad as well are astronomical. In over 10 years of backing on DVD's and over 5000 DVD's burned I have yet to lose 1 image. I haven't even come close to losing an image.

Not only are DVD's a perfectly acceptable back-up method, they also offer many advantages.

1 - Considerably cheaper
2 - Unlimited size potential
3 - Easier to catalog
4 - Frees up a lot of space on your computers
5 - Makes your image library on your computer vastly more manageable.
 

maestrokev

macrumors 6502a
Apr 23, 2007
875
8
Canada
However some people keep making these ridiculous claims that not only are HD's more reliable but DVD's are not reliable at all. Its completely untrue. HD failure rates massively exceed DVD failure rates.

DVD's are going to last you at least 30+ years.

1 - Considerably cheaper
2 - Unlimited size potential
3 - Easier to catalog
4 - Frees up a lot of space on your computers
5 - Makes your image library on your computer vastly more manageable.

HD failure rates are higher than DVD because the hard drives are spinning 24/7 in most computers. DVD's wouldn't last long if they were continually spinning and accessed 24/7.

How long have DVD's been around? The Optical Storage Technology Association has a blurb informing that most of the longevity test are based on CD's. There's also a difference between commercially pressed media vs home burning of DVD media.

The advantages you list are not isolated to DVD's.

The salient point is DVD's (with the exception of BluRay) are appropriate for small data backups whereas external hard drives are more convenient for large backups. I wouldn't stake any claims on longevity to either forms of media which is why I am constantly testing my hard drives when I update the data and replace my drives every few years.
 
HD failure rates are higher than DVD because the hard drives are spinning 24/7 in most computers. DVD's wouldn't last long if they were continually spinning and accessed 24/7.

How long have DVD's been around? The Optical Storage Technology Association has a blurb informing that most of the longevity test are based on CD's. There's also a difference between commercially pressed media vs home burning of DVD media.

The advantages you list are not isolated to DVD's.

The salient point is DVD's (with the exception of BluRay) are appropriate for small data backups whereas external hard drives are more convenient for large backups. I wouldn't stake any claims on longevity to either forms of media which is why I am constantly testing my hard drives when I update the data and replace my drives every few years.

While what you say does have some truth, I have had HD's fail less than a week into using them and I know many other people that have had similar occurrences. HD's dont just fail after years and years of use. The problems with HD's is that any one of a hundred things can go wrong, and the bottom line is you NEVER know when that is going to be. When you buy that HD in the store you have absolutely no way of knowing whether that drive will last a week or 10 years. That just isnt the case with DVD's or any other high quality optical storage disc for that matter.

As for the rest of your post, convenience doesn't even play into it for me. I am making back ups of my life's work so if it takes a little work, or a lot of work for that matter, then so be it. I am not concerned about such things. As for how long DVD's have been around, I really have no clue what that has to do with anything. If your trying to suggest that we have no clue how long DVD's will last then I am not buying that for a second. Science and technology in general is not some big guessing game. We are not utterly clueless when it comes to understanding the long term storage capability of digital media. If that were the case then things would be very very different and you wouldn't see places like the Library of Congress using such technology. We may not know yet the maximum length of time that such media will remain functional however we do have a very good understanding of the minimum time they will remain useful and most of the high quality discs available claim at least 30 years with some claiming up to 100 years. Considering I already have burns that are 12-13 years old that are scanning as good as the day they were burned, without even a sign of old age, well I for one absolutely believe those figures and there is no data out there that proves otherwise.

As for those advantages, yes they absolutely are just for DVD's. If you can make an argument that disproves one of them, or all of them for that matter, then lets hear it.

I will openly admit if you back up on DVD's like a schmuck then your going to get burned however if you take the proper steps and use the proper media and storage supplies then backing up on DVD's is without a single doubt one of the safest and ultimately one of the best back up methods that exists today. I can tell you this in regards to backing up on redundant HD's, if you plan on shooting a lot and plan on practicing photography for the better part of your life then your going to reach a point, just as I did and just as every other photographer that I know did, where the cost in maintaining such back up systems becomes way way too expensive. Its simply not a good system for large collections, that is unless you have tens of thousands of dollars that you would rather spend on HD's than other things like new photo equipment. I for one would much rather dump that money into other things like new photography equipment, my sons education fund, etc...

Again to back up all of my pictures in such a method would easily cost well over 50,000 and that would just continue to increase substantially from year to year. The 10,000 DVD's I have burned on the other hand have cost me I would estimate around 3000-3500 with the storage cases and materials costing another 1500-2000. So it has basically cost me 4500-5500 dollars or around 450-550 dollars a year. Much better than the 50,000 or 5000 a year I would be spending on HQ Hard drives. Actually HD's have come way down in price. It would probably cost me 50,000 today to use that method but if I were to have used that method during the last 10 years it would have easily cost 2-3 times that much as HD's were vastly more expensive even just a couple years ago.
 

maestrokev

macrumors 6502a
Apr 23, 2007
875
8
Canada
While what you say does have some truth, I have had HD's fail less than a week into using them and I know many other people that have had similar occurrences.

Science and technology in general is not some big guessing game. We are not utterly clueless when it comes to understanding the long term storage capability of digital media. If that were the case then things would be very very different and you wouldn't see places like the Library of Congress using such technology. We may not know yet the maximum length of time that such media will remain functional however we do have a very good understanding of the minimum time they will remain useful and most of the high quality discs available claim at least 30 years with some claiming up to 100 years. Considering I already have burns that are 12-13 years old that are scanning as good as the day they were burned, without even a sign of old age, well I for one absolutely believe those figures and there is no data out there that proves otherwise.

As for those advantages, yes they absolutely are just for DVD's. If you can make an argument that disproves one of them, or all of them for that matter, then lets hear it.

I will openly admit if you back up on DVD's like a schmuck then your going to get burned

So just because you and some people you know had some HD failures that makes your sampling size reliable? If you back up on HD's like a schmuck then of course they're going to fail. Buy good quality HD's and check them regularly.

Yes, science and technology is a guessing game. You make a hypothesis based on limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation - that's called guessing.

So the Library of Congress doesn't use ANY hard drives?

Claims does not equal proof. Where is your unequivocal data in support of DVD's?
 
So just because you and some people you know had some HD failures that makes your sampling size reliable? If you back up on HD's like a schmuck then of course they're going to fail. Buy good quality HD's and check them regularly.

Yes, science and technology is a guessing game. You make a hypothesis based on limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation - that's called guessing.

So the Library of Congress doesn't use ANY hard drives?

Claims does not equal proof. Where is your unequivocal data in support of DVD's?

Its very clear that you have your mind set on HD's and regardless of the MOUNDS of data available on the net in regards to this topic your going to believe whatever you want to believe. Its not just me a couple of my friends and if you actually spent some time to research this topic before actually trying to debate it you would already have known that. As for your insinuation that I am a schumck because I have had HD's fail, I am above your petty name calling.

No science and Technology isnt a guessing game and the fact that you think so really shows just how little you know in regards to this subject matter and technology in general.

As for the proof, try actually doing some research on your own instead of expecting everyone else to do it for you. It would take you literally 15 seconds on google to find out that HD failure rates VASTLY exceed HQ DVD failure rates. At this point I could care less if you believe it or not.

Technology is a guessing game, lol.
 

ajpl

macrumors regular
Oct 9, 2008
219
0
When you buy that HD in the store you have absolutely no way of knowing whether that drive will last a week or 10 years. That just isnt the case with DVD's or any other high quality optical storage disc for that matter.
Uh, yes it is. DVDs are not perfect, burners are not perfect and readers are not perfect. In fact sometimes only the original burner will play back the burned discs.
I have had DVDs fail. Good ones - supposedly. I never bought cheap DVDs, yet they have failed. Besides they are too small to even consider using now.

I would also normally say all HDs fail. It's just a matter of when. But as I migrate my data fairly regularly, I simply end up with a pile of old HDs gathering dust.
The only brand of HD I haven't had fail [and I've used them all I think] is Samsung, bar the one I dropped whilst it was being used. But that would have killed any desktop HD. It was one of two, so nothing lost.
 

sushi

Moderator emeritus
Jul 19, 2002
15,639
3
キャンプスワ&#
I also use Mozy, Carbonite and ZumoDrive to store in the cloud.
How would you rate these service in terms of cost, speed (DL and UP), capacity, ease of use and customer support?

Uh, yes it is. DVDs are not perfect, burners are not perfect and readers are not perfect. In fact sometimes only the original burner will play back the burned discs.
I have had DVDs fail. Good ones - supposedly. I never bought cheap DVDs, yet they have failed. Besides they are too small to even consider using now.
I've had both, DVDs and CDs, fail. They were good stock. I've also had cheap stock last forever it seems. You never know.

What ever system one uses, it needs to be redundant and in different locations.
 

ProwlingTiger

macrumors 65816
Jan 15, 2008
1,335
221
I back up with hard drives and DVD's. I use archival DVD's, but only if I can get a good deal. As many have said, optical discs can fail. In fact, we don't really know the true lifespan of them as they haven't been around long enough.
 
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