Youtube thinks HTML5 isn't up to par with Flash

[KnightWRX]

http://apiblog.youtube.com/2010/06/flash-and-html5-tag.html

Please note that their analysis includes future specification changes and that the video tag is about finalized already. This is not about Canvas, only video.

 

[UTclassof89]

ooooohh stand back; you've opened the floodgates now....

(but thanks for posting this; some MR readers appreciate thoughtful discourse)

 

[Consultant]

Pretty much full of fail.


1. Standard Video Format
In the same rational, because most mobile phones don't support flash, flash is not a standard video format.

2. Robust video streaming
Yes, not addressed… in theory. In reality, HTML5 works great on mobile devices while Flash does not work very well.

3. Content Protection
What content protection? It's easy to download a flash video. In fact, ANY youtube video can be downloaded easily.

4. Embedding
It's easy to embed HTML5 video.

5. Fullscreen video
iOS devices have them
Safari 5 can play HTML5 video fullscreen

6. Camera and Microphone access
Flash not needed for that

 

[KnightWRX]

Pretty much full of fail.

Seeing how there's Youtube and Vimeo pushing HTML5, I take their word for it if they say Flash offers more now, and in the foreseeable future, to your kool-aid tainted dismissal.

These guys are the ones making the player for the most used video streaming site on the web. They were first to adopt HTML5. You'd think that maybe they have some knowledge on the issue.

What is your background ?

 

[yg17]

1. Standard Video Format
In the same rational, because most mobile phones don't support flash, flash is not a standard video format.

Android has Flash. BlackBerry is getting Flash later this year. The only major mobile platform that won't have Flash is iOS, and that's because of Apple's refusal to allow browser plugins to be coded with the SDK, not Adobe.

2. Robust video streaming
Yes, not addressed… in theory. In reality, HTML5 works great on mobile devices while Flash does not work very well.

Flash works fine on my Android

3. Content Protection
What content protection? It's easy to download a flash video. In fact, ANY youtube video can be downloaded easily.

Flash is capable of DRM. YouTube doesn't use it for uploaded videos, but they do bring up YouTube rentals, where I assume it is used.

4. Embedding
It's easy to embed HTML5 video.

No real argument there.

5. Fullscreen video
iOS devices have them
Safari 5 can play HTML5 video fullscreen

There's more to this world than iOS and Safari 5.

6. Camera and Microphone access
Flash not needed for that

HTML5 can't do microphone/webcam access, so for the web, your choices are a Java applet or Flash to do those. I'll take Flash.

 

[Consultant]

Android has been on the market for how many years, and Flash barely works on it. That must be Apple's fault.

Full screen been done. It's possible.

So now DRM is good when it comes to flash??? That is surely the OPEN option. Flash fans are pretty blind.

 

[KnightWRX]

Android has Flash. BlackBerry is getting Flash later this year. The only major mobile platform that won't have Flash is iOS, and that's because of Apple's refusal to allow browser plugins to be coded with the SDK, not Adobe.

Fanboys conveniently ignore my previous post, in which it is indicated that Adobe has now shipped Flash 10.1 for most mobile platforms :

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/949077/

Arn insisting on posting bad stuff about Flash as page 1 news but ignoring the positive stuff only exacerbates the problem.

As for embedding, I think you need to read again what is said :

Encapsulation + Embedding
Flash Player's ability to combine application code and resources into a secure, efficient package has been instrumental in allowing YouTube videos to be embedded in other web sites. Web site owners need to ensure that embedded content is not able to access private user information on the containing page, and we need to ensure that our video player logic travels with the video (for features like captions, annotations, and advertising). While HTML5 adds sandboxing and message-passing functionality, Flash is the only mechanism most web sites allow for embedded content from other sites.

They are talking about embedding a Youtube video in something like phpBB forums, the Youtube tag. They aren't talking about embedding video in your own webpage where you control every aspect.

And their reasonning is sound. If I were to need to embed the HTML5 video from Youtube, I obviously can't use their player without modifying my own webpage. Embedding their Flash component gives me all their features instantly, because I am essentially using all their code.

What is done with a simple embed tag with Flash will require multiple script tabs to go along with your video tag and a deep understanding of how the player works.

Their reasoning is sound, your dismissal is pure ludicrousness. You lack understanding of the subject and it is really sad that we have to have you post on this subject. This will not help HTML5 adoption if all the truely interested parties aren't open to discussion on how to make HTML5 usable to developers out there.

 

[belvdr]

Android has been on the market for how many years, and Flash barely works on it. That must be Apple's fault.

Who said it was Apple's fault? Oh, that was you. Why are you implying others said this nonsense?

Flash was just released for the mobile platforms, which has nothing to do with how long the phone has been on the market. It's up to Adobe to put this out there, not the phone manufacturer.

So now DRM is good when it comes to flash??? That is surely the OPEN option. Flash fans are pretty blind.

Nobody said that; once again, you're adding words to the conversation. I'm not a DRM fan by any means, but if someone wants DRM on their content, can they use HTML5? It seems the answer is no.

 

[yg17]

It's up to Adobe to put this out there, not the phone manufacturer.

Of course, with the exception of Apple, whose ridiculous app restrictions make a Flash plugin for the iPhone impossible.

 

[belvdr]

Of course, with the exception of Apple, whose ridiculous app restrictions make a Flash plugin for the iPhone impossible.

Very true. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[KnightWRX]

Very true. Thanks for clarifying.

The worse part is seeing how the mobile 10.1 announcement was made and that they are now shipping for Android, Symbian, BB, WebOS, Meego, you have to wonder if they don't have a iOS version internally. They probably do. All Apple as to do is say "go!" and we all get it tomorrow in all probability.

 

[UTclassof89]

Weird thing is, with the seemingly robust event-handling HTML 5 video appears to have, it doesn't look like there's an oncuepoint event. Anyone have real-world experience with this? Is that as huge an omission as it appears to be?

 

[yg17]

The worse part is seeing how the mobile 10.1 announcement was made and that they are now shipping for Android, Symbian, BB, WebOS, Meego, you have to wonder if they don't have a iOS version internally. They probably do. All Apple as to do is say "go!" and we all get it tomorrow in all probability.

I think Adobe should just release it on Cydia.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

I think Adobe should just release it on Cydia.

I think that if they did that apple would be all over them with a lawsuit

 

[leekohler]

Flash has always sucked, IMO. When I'm going to a website, I want information quickly, not goofy animations that take forever to load and slow everything down.

 

[KnightWRX]

Flash has always sucked, IMO. When I'm going to a website, I want information quickly, not goofy animations that take forever to load and slow everything down.

Did you read the article or did you just come up with a generic response from the Steve handbook ?

 

[belvdr]

Flash has always sucked, IMO. When I'm going to a website, I want information quickly, not goofy animations that take forever to load and slow everything down.

I don't like heavy Flash sites either, but if you have a certain set of requirements, it appears Flash may be the way to go.

 

[yg17]

I think that if they did that apple would be all over them with a lawsuit

Why? It wouldn't be illegal.

 

[TBi]

Did you read the article or did you just come up with a generic response from the Steve handbook ?

I don't think an apple forum is the best place to discuss flash

Personally i think Flash is great in principle. I just feel it's execution is crap. My browser in general only crashs because of flash. Now that firefox has sandboxed it i don't get as many browser crashs but flash itself still goes under.

A friend had a computer that wouldn't go to certain websites, with no explaination why. Installing a flash update fixed this but flash never said it needed upgrading.

HTML5 isn't the best alternative for everything flash does but at least it's an alternative.

Flash could be, and should be, great. It's just written horribly.

 

[thejadedmonkey]

Why? It wouldn't be illegal.

Especially if they used their own compiler and not xcode

 

[Cabbit]

The Youtube HTML5 Beta is much better when playing back the videos that support it, there smoother and i can use my screen reader even tells me the names of the controls and position of the video.

 

[whooleytoo]

Just on a couple of points:

Pretty much full of fail.
3. Content Protection
What content protection? It's easy to download a flash video. In fact, ANY youtube video can be downloaded easily.

It's possible to add a challenge/response to the FMS connection between the video playing swf and the FMS server; which interrupts the flow of data and should foil stream rippers. I haven't tried it on any of our streaming solutions, but Adobe recommends it as a way of countering rippers.

(I wasn't able to view the example link they provided - it's not available in this country - so I couldn't test if they employ that method in that video).

5. Fullscreen video
iOS devices have them
Safari 5 can play HTML5 video fullscreen

I believe the point was they wanted the ability to overlay content over the fullscreen video. This could be custom control "HUD"s, Most Popular video lists and the like, perhaps advertising.

 

[whooleytoo]

Flash has always sucked, IMO. When I'm going to a website, I want information quickly, not goofy animations that take forever to load and slow everything down.

Sadly, they are not going away. More likely: instead of getting Flash animations/intros/adverts, you're going to get HTML5 & Javascript animations/intros/adverts.

Developers/site owners are going to try to produce the same sites just with different technologies. HTML5 isn't going to save us from bad design.

Perhaps (hopefully) HTML5 sites will be more resource efficient, but at the same time, it might actually be harder to turn off intrusive adverts as you now can with Flash blockers.

 

[KnightWRX]

I don't think an apple forum is the best place to discuss flash

This discussion should be about HTML5. This is what the original article is about. Of course, leave it to the fanbots to turn it into a negative Flash bashing fest.

 

[MacNut]

The only bad thing about flash is the embedded tracking cookies they throw in that you can never seem to easily get rid of.

The only reason Jobs doesn't like it is because he has no control over how he can charge apps for it.