2 + 2 = 3 How does D700 & 12 Core fit in 450 Watts?

[wallysb01]

I distinctly remember the MacBook Pro was throttled not because it couldn't handle the heat, but because silent fans were a higher priority than performance!

CPUs can run pretty damn hot just fine, but for a laptop, you have to touch it. So it might have been throttled just to keep keyboard/touchpad temps in reasonable ranges too.

 

[[G5]Hydra]

CPUs can run pretty damn hot just fine, but for a laptop, you have to touch it. So it might have been throttled just to keep keyboard/touchpad temps in reasonable ranges too.

Yeah, laptops don't make any kind of good comparison to a workstation. A computer designed to be run for hours on end plugged into the mains isn't exactly a usage scenario that works well in comparison to a device on your lap that runs on battery using all mobile parts. Also laptops have to worry about being run inside/outside in the sun or just about anywhere so throttling is a fact of life. A workstation usual runs in an air conditioned room.

 

[MythicFrost]

It's the built-in unicorn. Every Mac has one. You all should know this by now.

It's not as if Apple would spend all this time and money redesigning the Mac Pro to... not run.

In all likeliness whatever GPU configuration is being used in the Mac Pro, the power supply will be able to support it. It's probably 450 Watts for the base model, and then it steps up along with the GPUs.

Or maybe the unicorn is real.

 

[G4DP]

If everything was capable of running to it's potential at the same time, you would have another space heater, especially with the single fan. Seems Apple took a little inspiration from Dyson on the new design.

It's just as well it is small enough to fit on the desk. If you had it with 2 foot of the floor it would fill with dust and hair in minutes.

The design looks stunning, but why have "workstation" class parts if you are not able to make the most of them. Hell why are they still using Xeon's? Xeons work best in pairs, quads, octo's etc. Not on there own. They could have got away with using the iSeries in this machine.

We should be having a machines with 4 CPU chips in it by now, not going backwards to 1.

 

[MacVidCards]

In all likeliness whatever GPU configuration is being used in the Mac Pro, the power supply will be able to support it. It's probably 450 Watts for the base model, and then it steps up along with the GPUs.

Or maybe the unicorn is real.

This was 2nd conjecture, either heavy throttling or different PSU for different GPUs. If PSU needs to be upgraded to move up in GPUs then they have effectively WELDED the GPUs in. So much for that front page repost from French site claiming easy upgrades.

 

[slughead]

The D700 chips won't use 250W. That is what a separate 7970 pcie card uses. I doubt the actual D700's use even 100W by themselves. The unification of the system (fans, ...) will streamline power use.

Even large fans take about 6 watts each on maximum RPM, so the "streamlining of power use" wont do much. The D700, if it's as fast as they say, will be a slightly lower clocked W9000 which has a TPD of 270 watts.

So yes, 2 of them using ~500 watts is not too far off, unless they downclock the bajessus out of them.

Edit: Apparently not even the single-card 7990 was able to have significant benefits "streamlining"-- here is it using 570 watts, just as predicted.

 

[[G5]Hydra]

This was 2nd conjecture, either heavy throttling or different PSU for different GPUs. If PSU needs to be upgraded to move up in GPUs then they have effectively WELDED the GPUs in. So much for that front page repost from French site claiming easy upgrades.

Why would they be welded? Apple is the only source of Macs, they can specify every and any spec they want. It's not that complicated to use a different power supply for a different set of cards. That said, Apple would love for the end user to think of them as welded in there because they have 0% intention of supporting any GPU swaps in these machines, even if you could find someone that made the custom form factor PCI card. The French site reporting on the GPU's being on daughter cards was hardly news, you could see from animations on Apple's Mac Pro page on day one that they were specialized cards with connectors on the bottom and from the outside you are looking at the bottom of the card with the chip's spreader up against the central heatsink. I see this as essentially being like a socked CPU. Apple has about as much intention of having the GPU's swapped out in these machines by end users as they have in you swapping out the CPU's. I mean sure the CPU is gonna be socketed but that doesn't mean it's a user serviceable part. Does it mean you could do it? Sure, but as you mention it will be a PITA if you go from a D500 to a D700 because the PSU needs to be upgraded. Going from a D300 to a D500 would be more simple but like I said where are you going to get these special cards? Apple OEM replacements to repair shops will be crazy expensive.

 

[MacVidCards]

Yes, "welded" was referring to the effective end result of requiring new PSU or logic board. (If PSU is part of it)

If it is main logic board, all you would transfer over would be case & fan. Not so much an upgrade as a transfer.

 

[slughead]

In essence, it appears that AMD has a base clock rate around 727 MHz with its R9 290X, though the Hawaii GPU wants to run as close to 1000 MHz as possible.​

As is Tom's Hardware policy, we shared these potentially problematic findings with AMD prior to publication, and the company insists something is wrong with the retail-purchased cards I tested. We will continue investigating and, if any additional news becomes available, update this story.

*sad trumpet* Bwaaap bwaaaa

 

[slughead]

nm

 

[[G5]Hydra]

Yes, "welded" was referring to the effective end result of requiring new PSU or logic board. (If PSU is part of it)

If it is main logic board, all you would transfer over would be case & fan. Not so much an upgrade as a transfer.

I don't pretend to know how exactly Apple is doing things but keep in mind the MP used to have two configurations before. They had the single socket model and dual socket model, each with their own motherboards etc. The point being is this isn't Apple's first rodeo with offering what looks like the same machine with different innards to suit the specs of particular components. It looks like in the new MP the CPU and Two GPU's have their own daughter cards and sitting at the base of the machine is a round circuit board with chips on it, it can be seen ever so slightly in images that have the top fan removed looking straight down the heatsink. Maybe this bottom board is swapped out depending on the PSU specified.

 

[slughead]

I suspect it's a matter of binning for low power consumption GPU cores. This is effectively what AMD does for the 7990… The 7990 (dual GPU card) has a TDP of only 375W with core clocks of 950MHz that achieves 8TFlops.

yeah, about that 375watts...

Under the load of a compute-heavy task, the HIS and PowerColor cards suck down power as if it were going out of style. These aren't total system power numbers, mind you. Both of those Radeon HD 7990-class cards are consuming 570 W on their own. Does your apartment lack a heater? Well, winter is coming, and either one of those boards will keep your room warm when it's cool outside.

So I guess as long as you're not using them for, you know, compute-heavy tasks ...

 

[ActionableMango]

Yeah, laptops don't make any kind of good comparison to a workstation. A computer designed to be run for hours on end plugged into the mains isn't exactly a usage scenario that works well in comparison to a device on your lap that runs on battery using all mobile parts. Also laptops have to worry about being run inside/outside in the sun or just about anywhere so throttling is a fact of life. A workstation usual runs in an air conditioned room.

YES I KNOW LAPTOPS ARE NOT WORKSTATIONS. I agree with this. I said so right from the start.

The point is Apple has a history of underclocking for tight, small, quiet enclosures. The nMP is a tight, small, quiet enclosure. The heat, power, and space design is substantially different from all other workstations.

I have no idea if they gimped the nMP or not, but it wouldn't rule out Apple doing this just because it's a workstation. Workstations also typically have generous internal storage, generous number of slots, and overkill PSUs. nMP has none of this. Apple went a very different direction with nMP.

 

[wallysb01]

I don't pretend to know how exactly Apple is doing things but keep in mind the MP used to have two configurations before. They had the single socket model and dual socket model, each with their own motherboards etc. The point being is this isn't Apple's first rodeo with offering what looks like the same machine with different innards to suit the specs of particular components. It looks like in the new MP the CPU and Two GPU's have their own daughter cards and sitting at the base of the machine is a round circuit board with chips on it, it can be seen ever so slightly in images that have the top fan removed looking straight down the heatsink. Maybe this bottom board is swapped out depending on the PSU specified.

Apple certainly could do it, but its a little different to want to go from a single socket workstations to a duel processor workstation vs just upgrade your GPU. People are used to upgrading their GPUs without much fuss, but not so much with CPUs, let alone switching to a duel processor board. I guess its somewhat abitrary, but its what people have become acustom to, and shocker, people generally don't like change.

Anyway, the point it, now to swap out your GPUs you might have to do a full internal swap that will be very expensive. Basically, all you get to keep is the case, SSD and RAM. OWC is going to charge $4000 for that, if they even do it at all.

Also, it calls into question what CPU-GPU combinations will be possible, if the Apple needs to build them as more or less single PSU-MoBo-CPU-GPU parts. For example, could one get the 1620 with D900 (or whatever that top GPU is)? Basically, can people get the bottom option of one and the top option of the other as was possible in the past? If to avoid making too many different types of parts, Apple cuts out certain combinations, obviously that will be a loss of value to many users who's workflows are specifically GPU or CPU bound.

 

[AidenShaw]

Where would you put a bigger power supply

Yes, "welded" was referring to the effective end result of requiring new PSU or logic board. (If PSU is part of it).

There's very little room for a power supply (it's between the memory cards, behind the ports).

It would be very difficult to put an 800 watt or 1000 watt power supply in the TrashCan - unless it were magical.

(...this assumes that one would never design a system that ran the power supply over 75% to 80% of capacity -- if your expected sustained load is 600 watts, an 800 watt sustained PS would be the minimum.)

 

[VirtualRain]

yeah, about that 375watts...

So I guess as long as you're not using them for, you know, compute-heavy tasks ...

Those Devil 13 cards are not reference AMD designs. Apparently they are three slot monsters that consume massive amounts of power (as evidenced by your chart) and were actually released prior to AMDs reference design (without the benefit of binning). They are not representative of a normal AMD 7990. I'm not sure about the HIS, although it would appear to suffer from the same issue.

Anyway, I think the answer to this riddle is probably very simple and can be found by understanding how AMD gets 8TFlops from a 375W TDP card with dual GPUs. Apple is most certainly following suit.

From AnandTech...

But perhaps the most defining aspect of AMD’s 7990, and the thing that sets it apart from unofficial 7990s that came before it is the TDP. AMD’s 7990 has an official TDP of just 375W, which although common for official dual-GPU cards, is quite a bit lower than the TDPs of the unofficial 7990s. As the GPU manufacturer AMD has the ability to do finely grained binning that their partners cannot, so while Asus and PowerColor have essentially been putting together cards that really are two 7970s on a single card – right down to the TDP – official 7990s get the advantage of AMD’s binning process, significantly reducing power consumption. The end result is that while an unofficial 7990 would be a 450W+ part, AMD can deliver the same or better performance while consuming much less power, putting the 7990 within the all-important 375W envelope that OEMs and boutique builders look for.

 

[MacVidCards]

Good article.

Here is the link if anyone is interested.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6915/amd-radeon-hd-7990-review-7990-gets-official/16

They ultimately come to the conclusion that 7990 has no advantage over GTX690, but uses an extra 75 Watts doing so. Makes Apple's decision to use it more questionable, if goal was quiet and low power use, sounds like a pair of 680s would have gotten same GPU hp with 75 Watts less power in and 75 Watts less heat to dissipate.

They also complain that the card took 17 months to come out after 7970. So it was considered "dated" back in April. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

And even if the number is 375 Watts, 375 Watts + 130 Watts = 505 Watts, already over the quoted 450 Watts WITHOUT any of the other system pieces added in.

So the original premise of the thread stands. Either throttling is going to happen, or the upgraded GPUs require a different PSU, meaning upgrades move into the "nearly impossible" range. (ie, might as well just buy a new one)

 

[Macman45]

This is one of those topics that doesn't need a 1000 word essay.

The nMP has listed specs of 450W.

The 12 core CPU is listed at 130W.

The 7970/W9000/D700/E6212-2000 GPUs are rated between 250-275Watts EACH.

So, we have numbers that don't add up. 130W + 250W + 250W = 630 Watts (on low end)

Two options.

1. The D700 option includes different PSU with PCBs, or separate unit not seen in photos. This would mean that upgrading later to better GPUs would also require either a different PSU unit, or main logic board replacement. (Switching CPU to new board) Either choice makes later GPU upgrade a PITA.

2. The D700 and 12 Core CPU will throttle themselves crazy staying under 450 Watts. There is NO WAY IN HECK that this won't show up in Benchmarks as crippling. It would basically come across as "You can't use the CPU and the GPUs at the same time, one or the other." Any comparison with past 12 core MP or current other workstations would be an embarrassment without using benchmarks that limited test to one section or other with no load on untested part.

It's one or the other. Matter and energy can't be created or destroyed, nMP lives in same Physics world the rest of us do.

Any opinions?

I was thinking this myself. I can't make the numbers add up either....Apple have either come up with some custom driver / power management solution that we are unaware of, or as you say, that card is going to be throttled back. We have a 5.1 hex that will be getting a new card next year...( has the 5770 in at at present) and I won't buy anything that isn't pre-flashed and MP ready. It will be interesting to see how the new one pans out, but as much as the design is nice etc. etc. you can't slide the cover off and add in cards etc.

Sticking with the 5.1.

 

[slughead]

Those Devil 13 cards are not reference AMD designs.

That's incredible! I had no idea that product binning could lower power consumption that much.

MVC is right: there's still much wattage to be accounted for, plus you have to take it on faith that AMD's binning these parts for Apple like they did for the reference 7990 (I guess we'll have to assume that they are), but things may not be as bad as they seem.

Even with the power efficiency of the 7990, we're still at 500Watts , and there's still 60 watts of Thunderbolt and 18 watts of USB -- 578 watts -- plus whatever else is on the motherboard. Even without the rest of the parts of the motherboard, that's a 22% haircut the GPU/CPU will have to take.

 

[Macman45]

That's incredible! I had no idea that product binning could lower power consumption that much.

MVC is right: there's still much wattage to be accounted for, plus you have to take it on faith that AMD's binning these parts for Apple like they did for the reference 7990 (I guess we'll have to assume that they are), but things may not be as bad as they seem.

Even with the power efficiency of the 7990, we're still at 500Watts , and there's still 60 watts of Thunderbolt and 18 watts of USB -- 578 watts -- plus whatever else is on the motherboard. Even without the rest of the parts of the motherboard, that's a 22% haircut the GPU/CPU will have to take.

External PSU for the G Board?

 

[[G5]Hydra]

Those Devil 13 cards are not reference AMD designs. Apparently they are three slot monsters that consume massive amounts of power (as evidenced by your chart) and were actually released prior to AMDs reference design (without the benefit of binning). They are not representative of a normal AMD 7990. I'm not sure about the HIS, although it would appear to suffer from the same issue.

Anyway, I think the answer to this riddle is probably very simple and can be found by understanding how AMD gets 8TFlops from a 375W TDP card with dual GPUs. Apple is most certainly following suit.

From AnandTech...

We have a better comparison in the form an the ATI S10000. It's essentially two W9000's on a single card that draws 375W and does 5.91 TFLOPS from being underclocked to 825MHz. We still don't get to where you need to be for the power budget. They must be using a beefier powersupply to get the power they need. Also go look at quality 6-700w power supplies. They all have massive fans on them which won't be needed on the new Mac Pro. Take the fans off and they are much much smaller and would fit. Apple is a company that designs their own SoC's and packages laptops, they can figure out a way to get a compact power supply in a restricted amount of space if they want.

 

[ssls6]

Ok now that we have the dual card data, we can estimate the chip better

Single card

X(wattage of gpu) + Y(wattage of card) = 275
2x(wattage of 2 gpu's) + Y(wattage of card) = 375

X = 100

Not to damn far off from what I speculated the first time. You can't have a 365mm^2 die burn 275 Watts. The xeon is a bigger die and uses 130 Watts.

 

[theSeb]

And we all know that Apple is not afraid to put slim design over aggressive CPU/GPU throttling in their other alleged pro products called MacBook Pro.

Could you elaborate on this please in respect of CPU throttling?

Let's imagine a recent Intel CPU with TurboBoost that runs at 2.4 base and 3 GHz in turboboost. In the case of CPU "throttling" there are two possibilities:

1. The CPU runs lower than the base clock

2. The CPU throttles Turboboost towards base clock when it gets too hot

Apple used to be guilty of 1 in the days before Turboboost, but they have not been doing this for many years now. I have tested the 2012 rMBP and have not seen it and many other tech sites agree with me. Same goes for a 2011 MBA and MBP.

In the case of 2, it is possible to test and see if this happening, but I have not been able to do it on the rMBP in OS X. I have only done it in Windows. In older machines like the 2011 MBA I have managed to watch Turboboost in OS X. Anyway, I digress. The 2012 rMBP stays up to turbo boost clock rate for some time before settling down once the CPU warms up. Then once the fans are going, the CPU stays around the turboboost clock rate with very little throttling.

I would be grateful if you could supply any details, because I don't think that we all definitely know about this alleged throttling in their alleged pro products.

 

[slughead]

Ok now that we have the dual card data, we can estimate the chip better

Single card

X(wattage of gpu) + Y(wattage of card) = 275
2x(wattage of 2 gpu's) + Y(wattage of card) = 375

X = 100

Not to damn far off from what I speculated the first time. You can't have a 365mm^2 die burn 275 Watts. The xeon is a bigger die and uses 130 Watts.

First off, most of the power cutting of the 7990 is through binning (the chips themselves, according to that article). Second, further power savings by consolidating the circuitry of 2 cards into 1 may or may not be significant, but even if it is: Isn't imagining a master/slave card being linked over the PCIE 3.0 port of the nMP a bit of a stretch?

All we've figured out so far: If Apple is just using scaled-down W9000's, the wattage requirement relative to the 450W spec is astronomical. Through binning (like on the 7990 reference does), they can shave off quite a lot. Through consolidation of circuitry, they can perhaps shave a little more. Through quick-idle and smart distribution of resources, perhaps more can be shaved (though I'm skeptical as to which tasks and how much).

Even if all these were rolled into one product (currently conjecture), we'd still be at a pretty significant power deficit.

 

[slughead]