2016 nMP

[MacVidCards]

The whole nMP "450Watt" thing has been absurdist from Day 1.

Time has only made the case stronger.

Very much like Chevrolet announcing that the next Corvette will be the most gorgeous one ever. And also the most efficiecnt ! It will now be a 40MPG Sports Car with no more than 3 cylinders and 2 Litres of displacement. Yeah !

Great for the planet, great for the carbon footprint, not so great for the drivers stuck in the slow lane while 7 Litre MBs, BMWs, Porsche's etc whizz past, free of silly artificial limitations that don't reflect what a "Sports Car" should be.

(Clever folks will see that swapping things like "nmp" for "Corvette" and "HP" and Dell" for the other auto brands will bring enlightenment)

For those who prefer Job's "truck" analogy...how many Big Rig ('Lorry' for you Brits) drivers are ready to switch to a 4 Cyl Diesel with 120 HP for the sake of the planet vs. a truck that gets the job done?

It's too bad Apple doesn't break their numbers down a little more. I'd love to know sales numbers for Mac Pro for last 8 years.

I'd also like to know how much $$$ they allocated to "Supporting Absurdist Arguments in Favor of Artififcially Limited 450 Watt workstation-ettes in popular forums".

 

[koyoot]

The whole nMP "450Watt" thing has been absurdist from Day 1.

Time has only made the case stronger.

Very much like Chevrolet announcing that the next Corvette will be the most gorgeous one ever. And also the most efficiecnt ! It will now be a 40MPG Sports Car with no more than 3 cylinders and 2 Litres of displacement. Yeah !

Great for the planet, great for the carbon footprint, not so great for the drivers stuck in the slow lane while 7 Litre MBs, BMWs, Porsche's etc whizz past, free of silly artificial limitations that don't reflect what a "Sports Car" should be.

(Clever folks will see that swapping things like "nmp" for "Corvette" and "HP" and Dell" for the other auto brands will bring enlightenment)

For those who prefer Job's "truck" analogy...how many Big RIg drivers are ready to switch to a 4 Cyl Diesel with 120 HP for the sake of the planet vs a truck that gets the jo=b done?

It's too bad Apple doesn't break their numbers down a little more. I'd love to know sales numbers for Mac Pro for last 8 years.

I'd also like to know how much $$$ they allocated to "Supporting Absurdist Arguments in Favor of Artififcially Limited 450 Watt workstation-ettes in popular forums".

What about higher thrust while using less fuel in jet engines from Rolls-Royce in airplanes? I suppose this is bad idea, as well. "We want to use more fuel while having less power!"

 

[MacVidCards]

What about higher thrust while using less fuel in jet engines from Rolls-Royce in airplanes? I suppose this is bad idea, as well. "We want to use more fuel while having less power!"

If doing so makes the airplane slower, than no.

Here is where the "absurdist" part comes into play.

 

[Larry-K]

It is last node where 600mm2 die size is affordable, which I already have mentioned in previous posts...

It is only up top anyone to think that way. I tried to educate myself about future of computing, and where industry goes. And for where the world goes, Mac Pro in trash can form factor is not bad idea. For where it was yesterday - it was a bad idea. Right now we are in middle ground. I am not saying that it is best design for where it goes, somebody may come up with even better idea, but Mac Pro was the first.

3 key things to consider here: efficiency, scalability of performance, HSA foundation.

You don't buy computers for things that will be implemented in the future, you buy them to get work done today.

I'm still waiting Altivec to be properly addressed on G4s, do you think that's still coming? I couldn't see into the future to know that I'd have such good single GPU choices as I have now for my oMPs, I just knew the ones offered int the 2013 nMP were wanting.

The best design is the most efficient, least expensive, most reliable, best performing solution, not one arbitrarily stuffed into a tube, that can only be justified by cherry-picking stats.

 

[koyoot]

If doing so makes the airplane slower, than no.

Here is where the "absurdist" part comes into play.

Does higher thrust make airplanes slower? Then we better hide...

That is absurd statement, right there.

You don't buy computers for things that will be implemented in the future, you buy them to get work done today.

I'm still waiting Altivec to be properly addressed on G4s, do you think that's still coming? I couldn't see into the future to know that I'd have such good single GPU choices as I have now for my oMPs, I just knew the ones offered int the 2013 nMP were wanting.

The best design is the most efficient, least expensive, most reliable, best performing solution, not one arbitrarily stuffed into a tube, that can only be justified by cherry-picking stats.

Well, you have basically said exactly what I did. The thing is that whole world will approach the same problems and will have to counter them somehow. Building BGA only stuff, is one of the ways how increased manufacturing costs in shrinking desktop market will be countered.

For where the world was - Mac Pro "can" was bad idea. For where the world is going - it is good idea.

As I have said previously on this topic:
People called Apple crazy when they got rid of Floppy drive.
People called Apple crazy when they got rid of optical drive.
People call Apple crazy when they want to get rid of 3.5 inch jack in iPhones.
People called Apple crazy when they redesigned Mac Pro.

 

[wallysb01]

You don't buy computers for things that will be implemented in the future, you buy them to get work done today.

I'm still waiting Altivec to be properly addressed on G4s, do you think that's still coming? I couldn't see into the future to know that I'd have such good single GPU choices as I have now for my oMPs, I just knew the ones offered int the 2013 nMP were wanting.

The best design is the most efficient, least expensive, most reliable, best performing solution, not one arbitrarily stuffed into a tube, that can only be justified by cherry-picking stats.

I think you're really underestimating the value in arbitrarily stuffing something in a tube!

 

[Larry-K]

I think you're really underestimating the value in arbitrarily stuffing something in a tube!

It works well for T-Shirts.

 

[MacVidCards]

For where the world was - Mac Pro "can" was bad idea. For where the world is going - it is good idea.

So you admit that it hasn't been a good idea yet, but maybe someday it will be?

So were all 3 dozen people who bought one putzes?

Sacrificial lambs?

Since the rumored GPU upgrades never came and the castrated ones that shipped are all ready ruled out of VR, aren't those machines going to end up in landfills SOONER than ones with replaceable GPUs?

How is that better for the world?

You have a marvelous way of only looking at your side of things.

Nobody would ever say a more efficient, more powerful jet engine is bad.

People DO SAY that a more efficient but LESS POWERFUL computer is bad.

See how that works?

Question, what is a man made of straw?

 

[Mago]

The whole nMP "450Watt" thing has been absurdist from Day 1.

Time has only made the case stronger.

Very much like Chevrolet announcing that the next Corvette will be the most gorgeous one ever. And also the most efficiecnt ! It will now be a 40MPG Sports Car with no more than 3 cylinders and 2 Litres of displacement. Yeah !

Great for the planet, great for the carbon footprint, not so great for the drivers stuck in the slow lane while 7 Litre MBs, BMWs, Porsche's etc whizz past, free of silly artificial limitations that don't reflect what a "Sports Car" should be.

(Clever folks will see that swapping things like "nmp" for "Corvette" and "HP" and Dell" for the other auto brands will bring enlightenment)

For those who prefer Job's "truck" analogy...how many Big Rig ('Lorry' for you Brits) drivers are ready to switch to a 4 Cyl Diesel with 120 HP for the sake of the planet vs. a truck that gets the job done?

It's too bad Apple doesn't break their numbers down a little more. I'd love to know sales numbers for Mac Pro for last 8 years.

I'd also like to know how much $$$ they allocated to "Supporting Absurdist Arguments in Favor of Artififcially Limited 450 Watt workstation-ettes in popular forums".

The problem is Apple makes PCs to sell, not to store while some one at the 1% of their real user base wants to build a number cruncher for ? Not for FCPX, neither Adobe , maybe for those on animation, bu actually dont account on Apple user base, and most moved to Linux clusters long ago.

As I explained, one is the PRO user in a regular PC-Workstation Ecosystem, and another is the Pro User in an Apple Environment, most of them on Advertising, Video Edition, and Music (Music is a special case, these actually arent real power users but since their tools are the best example of inefficient code they need Workstation HorsePower to do what an mainstream cpu could do on efficient code).

Apple dont need to sell a Dual CPU Mac Pro, this onl interest to 1% of mac pro's natural users, While restricting GPU TDP to 260W max total could be matter to discuss as to use an propertaty form factor (something the Industry actually needs too is an new GPU form factor instead the Old AT-Card, driving all the signals -or at least the essentials- thru the mainboard).

PD. Given the Impact is having Thunderbolt its very likely the Industry is working at least an revision to the PCI-e connector to inlude video transport and other features as gpu interconnect fabric.

 

[Larry-K]

As I have said previously on this topic:
People called Apple crazy when they got rid of Floppy drive.
People called Apple crazy when they got rid of optical drive.
People call Apple crazy when they want to get rid of 3.5 inch jack in iPhones.
People called Apple crazy when they redesigned Mac Pro.

You've made your point, they're obviously crazy.

 

[koyoot]

So you admit that it hasn't been a good idea yet, but maybe someday it will be?

So were all 3 dozen people who bought one putzes?

Sacrificial lambs?

Since the rumored GPU upgrades never came and the castrated ones that shipped are all ready ruled out of VR, aren't those machines going to end up in landfills SOONER than ones with replaceable GPUs?

How is that better for the world?

You have a marvelous way of only looking at your side of things.

Nobody would ever say a more efficient, more powerful jet engine is bad.

People DO SAY that a more efficient but LESS POWERFUL computer is bad.

See how that works?

Question, what is a man made of straw?

Ruled out of VR by bad developers that are failing to invent anything that support dual GPU setups. If you would know what is Split Frame Rendering, and for what it was developed(VR) and why it is in Mantle/Vulkan/DirectX12 you would not say such stupid thing. 3.5 TFLOPs of compute is bottom limit for VR if you consider single GPU. In Mac Pro you have dual setup. So it will be more(on D700) than single Titan X can provide. More than GTX 1070 will provide. Even basic dual D300 could bring basic experience of VR. If there would be good developers.

Nitpicking parts of posts is good to prove your agenda. Its a shame that you fail to understand bigger picture. Anyways, enjoy your straw man arguments with other people. Im not putting you off from ignore list anymore.

You've made your point, they're obviously crazy.

Until what they do becomes industry standard.

 

[MacVidCards]

The problem is Apple makes PCs to sell, not to store while some one at the 1% of their real user base wants to build a number cruncher for ? Not for FCPX, neither Adobe , maybe for those on animation, bu actually dont account on Apple user base, and most moved to Linux clusters long ago.

As I explained, one is the PRO user in a regular PC-Workstation Ecosystem, and another is the Pro User in an Apple Environment, most of them on Advertising, Video Edition, and Music (Music is a special case, these actually arent real power users but since their tools are the best example of inefficient code they need Workstation HorsePower to do what an mainstream cpu could do on efficient code).

Apple dont need to sell a Dual CPU Mac Pro, this onl interest to 1% of mac pro's natural users, While restricting GPU TDP to 260W max total could be matter to discuss as to use an propertaty form factor (something the Industry actually needs too is an new GPU form factor instead the Old AT-Card, driving all the signals -or at least the essentials- thru the mainboard).

PD. Given the Impact is having Thunderbolt its very likely the Industry is working at least an revision to the PCI-e connector to inlude video transport and other features as gpu interconnect fabric.

I see no logic or reason in this post. I imagine something got lost in translation, but it literally makes no sense whatsoever to me.

It is an artificially limited computer that now seems extra silly when trying to upgrade GPUs means paying $2,000.00 for a couple used 7970s on Ebay with no warranty.

No software from 3rd parties got written to take advantage of the 2nd GPU, it just sits there taking up space 99% of time.

Running display outputs through the PCIE bus is just dumb. There is a reason I am the only person on planet to get an eGPU working on nMP in Windows. The PCIE lanes are so over-subscribed already that running 6 mDP ports through them as well has made it a fuster cluck. 6 ports look pretty. Good luck trying to run anything more demanding than 6 TB mice over them at once.

 

[AidenShaw]

Let's all take a deep breath, and not descend into bickering. Let's keep this thread open until WWDC.

 

[koyoot]

Let's all take a deep breath, and not descend into bickering. Let's keep this thread open until WWDC.

Or October...

 

[Larry-K]

Ruled out of VR by bad developers that are failing to invent anything that support dual GPU setups. If you would know what is Split Frame Rendering, and for what it was developed(VR) and why it is in Mantle/Vulkan/DirectX12 you would not say such stupid thing. 3.5 TFLOPs of compute is bottom limit for VR if you consider single GPU. In Mac Pro you have dual setup. So it will be more(on D700) than single Titan X can provide. More than GTX 1070 will provide. Even basic dual D300 could bring basic experience of VR. If there would be good developers.

So all those bad developers are to blame for Apple's lackluster OSX dual GPU support?

I've got drawers full of Apple connectors, cables and adapters that didn't become industry standards, you can have them if you like.

I still get media on optical disks all the time, I can't tell clients that Apple doesn't approve.
[doublepost=1463436164][/doublepost]

Let's all take a deep breath, and not descend into bickering. Let's keep this thread open until WWDC.

You mean MacWorld?

 

[koyoot]

So all those bad developers are to blame for Apple's lackluster OSX dual GPU support?

I've got drawers full of Apple connectors, cables and adapters that didn't become industry standards, you can have them if you like.

I still get media on optical disks all the time, I can't tell clients that Apple doesn't approve.

Do you have Mantle or DX12 on OS X? Im not talking about VR situation on OS X but under Windows. There is currently no support for VR under OS X because there... is no display output for goggles, and there is no crossfire, and that is Apple to be blamed. But under Windows?

 

[tralfaz]

I see no logic or reason in this post. I imagine something got lost in translation, but it literally makes no sense whatsoever to me.

It is an artificially limited computer that now seems extra silly when trying to upgrade GPUs means paying $2,000.00 for a couple used 7970s on Ebay with no warranty.

No software from 3rd parties got written to take advantage of the 2nd GPU, it just sits there taking up space 99% of time.

Running display outputs through the PCIE bus is just dumb. There is a reason I am the only person on planet to get an eGPU working on nMP in Windows. The PCIE lanes are so over-subscribed already that running 6 mDP ports through them as well has made it a fuster cluck. 6 ports look pretty. Good luck trying to run anything more demanding than 6 TB mice over them at once.

This has always bugged me since Thunderbolt was first announced. It always seemed that video output used be isolated from the system bus when there was direct GPU to display connections. It kinda made a bit of sense prior to 4K and 5K displays, but now it seems like a fantastic way to constantly saturate the system I/O with pixel streams.

I get that it saves a port on ever thinner laptops, but on a desktop it makes no sense at all. It just seems to placate Intel(chipzilla) marketing B.S.

The sad thing is there will probably be no room for a Thunderbolt port, on the next MBP design which will achieve negative thickness by housing the motherboard in the 4th dimension. That's right the more MBPs you stack on top of each other, the deeper the indentation in the desk gets.

 

[Larry-K]

Do you have Mantle or DX12 on OS X? Im not talking about VR situation on OS X but under Windows. There is currently no support for VR under OS X because there... is no display output for goggles, and there is no crossfire, and that is Apple to be blamed. But under Windows?

Why did they include "Crossfire" as a selling point? They're the ones chaining us to AMD. Should be called "Misfire".

Don't care about "VR", it's enough trouble to deal with "R".

 

[sigmadog]

It seems obvious to me that Apple (Ive?) started the redesign of the Mac Pro with at least three primary goals:

• Smaller
• Quieter
• Shorter lifespan

In order to make it smaller, upgradability was sacrificed. In order to make it quieter within that smaller configuration, wattage was sacrificed. In order to reduce the lifespan (thereby increasing long-term demand), integral parts were made proprietary and non-replaceable.

The third bullet (Shorter lifespan) is debatable, but given Apple's penchant for disposables in all its other consumer products, I think one can make a good argument that this was precisely what they were shooting for.

Obviously there were other goals, but every other goal seemed, in my view, to be subordinate to the first two (Smaller and Quieter).

As for power, Apple wanted a computer that was massively powerful when it came to Apple software (FCP), but didn't care enough about anything else.

That's my opinion, but I'm probably wrong.

 

[MacVidCards]

This has always bugged me since Thunderbolt was first announced. It always seemed that video output used be isolated from the system bus when there was direct GPU to display connections. It kinda made a bit of sense prior to 4K and 5K displays, but now it seems like a fantastic way to constantly saturate the system I/O with pixel streams.

Yeah, I have no idea why people think this is good. It reminds me of those Home Audio setups where they multiplex the audio onto your home 120 VAC so you can plug into any outlet in the house. Yippity ! Sounds like crap everywhere instead of just the source room!

People need to have a look at the edge connector on nMP GPU. Now imagine that instead of just the usual PCIE gold fingers, you also need to run not 1, not 2 but in fact up to 6 (SIX !) DisplayPort connections through those. Why on earth would you want that as a design goal? Other than the "Magic" at the plug end, what would the advantage be?

Reminds me of the ADC. (Apple Display Connector) that Apple tried to crush DVI with. Was DVI with 24VDC for display power, and USB, and a power switch set of lines.

People said Apple was crazy for using it.

A couple years later when Apple got tired of replacing burned up parts, they agreed and switched back to DVI.

Not every Apple "Innovation" ends up with a Fairy Tale ending.

 

[flat five]

The third bullet (Shorter lifespan) is debatable, but given Apple's penchant for disposables in all its other consumer products, I think one can make a good argument that this was precisely what they were shooting for.

definitely debatable..

because it's mainly consumers driving the disposable electronics market.. not the corporations.

unless we're talking something like batteries or light bulbs.. ie- things that break or stop working and people are moreOrLess forced to re-buy.. this does happen eventually with computers but most people seem to dispose of theirs prior to them keeling over.j

[edit] apple does eventually kill the machine with software.. but still, most people around here seem to be ditching their mac prior to that happening as well.

 

[Larry-K]

It seems obvious to me that Apple (Ive?) started the redesign of the Mac Pro with at least three primary goals:

• Smaller
• Quieter
• Shorter lifespan

In order to make it smaller, upgradability was sacrificed. In order to make it quieter within that smaller configuration, wattage was sacrificed. In order to reduce the lifespan (thereby increasing long-term demand), integral parts were made proprietary and non-replaceable.

The third bullet (Shorter lifespan) is debatable, but given Apple's penchant for disposables in all its other consumer products, I think one can make a good argument that this was precisely what they were shooting for.

Obviously there were other goals, but every other goal seemed, in my view, to be subordinate to the first two (Smaller and Quieter).

As for power, Apple wanted a computer that was massively powerful when it came to Apple software (FCP), but didn't care enough about anything else.

That's my opinion, but I'm probably wrong.

I'd make it four, remembering to include Apple's fat margins, but that's a given.

 

[flat five]

miJu already posted the thinking behind the redesign.

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/insider-preview-of-the-2013-mac-pro-design-principles.1677182/

hardly anyone believes him though.. oh well.

 

[AidenShaw]

Or October...

If the nnMP (or MP7,1) is not announced at WWDC, or if the MP6,1 is EOL'd at WWDC - this thread is going to suffer a meltdown of angry Apple believers arguing with the people who have been reading the tea leaves (whether those people are Apple fans or not).

Best case is that Apple replays the 2013 launch of the MP6,1:

• Splashy hardware show - but lots of details not fleshed out
• Available in October (in fact, seven systems will ship overnight on 30 October to meet this promise - but real availability will be end of November through 'til the end of the year).
• The systems show up, but the GPUs frequently crash

So all those bad developers are to blame for Apple's lackluster OSX dual GPU support?

Those developers are burning the candle at both ends trying to fix the stuff that Apple broke going from Apple OSX 10.10 to Apple OSX 10.11.

Do you expect them to have time to recode to incompatible non-standard APIs as well?

I've got drawers full of Apple connectors, cables and adapters that didn't become industry standards, you can have them if you like.

I'll do better - I'll pay you to help empty my "obsolete Apple dongle drawer".

You mean MacWorld?

I was challenged by someone that I criticized for saying Broadwell-E when he was referring to Broadwell-EP. He said that he's say "-EP" if I'd stop saying "MacWorld SF". I accept the challenge, at least until mid June. If Apple does a magical show while screwing their most loyal customers - they'll have proved my joking comment.

 

[Larry-K]

I'll do better - I'll pay you to help empty my "obsolete Apple dongle drawer".

Hey, there's a deal, got some nice ones myself, an ADB ElectricImage from my $7500 purchase, back when that was real money.