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Stacc

macrumors 6502a
Jun 22, 2005
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You have right to not rely on AMD, but about Intel, just see how ARM still attached to Moore law an how close is from Intel in raw performance (each cortex a72 core equals very close to Xeon D cores in raw performance, despite using 1/3 of the power).

ARM simply had a lot more room for improvement. Apple has the benefit on mobile that they can tailor the processor for the exact purpose of being in a cell phone. ARM has only achieved parity with intel lowest wattage chips. In fact, the A9X has more transistors (or at least a bigger die) than Intel's quad core skylake chips. Its not simple to scale up ARM from a ~5 W SOC design to > 80 W general purpose CPU and maintain performance with intel. Not to mention you have to start supporting connectivity like thunderbolt, PCIe, better memory controllers, etc.

What I see is that Intel improvements on efficiency are more linked to the node shrinking than to actually developing power-saving features, since the power consumption has felt in proportion to the node size, nothing as dramatic as when they developed the "core 2" which really increased efficiency inside the cpu architecture not just the process.

Intel still pushes its power saving features. It has very good clock gating, i.e., shutting down parts of the processor that are not used. Core duo and Core 2 just seemed like a big jump because of how inefficient netburst (Pentium 4) was.

What I said is not that ZEN cpu will be better ( I also doubt this fact), but at least would be 'good enough' for Apple to switch, despite not being the best performer Apple's marketing will convince everybody about that mythical groundbreaking quantum leap on performance efficiency features etc.

For Apple to adopt Zen it likely has to compete with intel across the product line. Apple values battery life and efficiency over all else, especially since their most popular macs are portables. Until AMD can match Intel in this space I think Apple will stick with Intel. I am skeptical Zen will match Skylake in this respect.

Basically its far to easy to dismiss Intel as "sleeping." I think this sentiment is mostly born out of Intel not focussing its efforts on the enthusiast CPU market, which is very small. Instead they have focused on efficiency for consumers and multithreaded performance for their server platforms. For Intel, this is a smart move but obviously frustrating if you are someone who wants some sort of mythical 6-8 core 5 Ghz chip that can play games or what not.
 
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koyoot

macrumors 603
Jun 5, 2012
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When it will come out, eventually, it will deliver. The question is: when it will be? :D
 

Mago

macrumors 68030
Aug 16, 2011
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Beyond the Thunderdome
When it will come out, eventually, it will deliver. The question is: when it will be? :D
I bet at least the nnMP should be announced on the next launch window on late March or early April (along new iPads) with delivery late April or May not early but early than WWDC where is more likely to see the new MacBooks and the new cinema display,
 

Mago

macrumors 68030
Aug 16, 2011
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Basically its far to easy to dismiss Intel as "sleeping." I think this sentiment is mostly born out of Intel not focussing its efforts on the enthusiast CPU market, which is very small. Instead they have focused on efficiency for consumers and multithreaded performance for their server platforms. For Intel, this is a smart move but obviously frustrating if you are someone who wants some sort of mythical 6-8 core 5 Ghz chip that can play games or what not.

I deserve respect to you other comments about ARM and AMD but I'll give a chance to AMD to prove they're not dead yet.

But about Intel's slowdown on developing their cpu (besides the challenges on the node process), is not an enthusiast POV it's an wide user base POV, the PC market is cooling due lack of sensible improvements, simple people don't buy new pc because they older one still up for their needs and a new one don't enables nothing that's why you see now the focus on new form factors (mini pc, AIO) as sales strategy than the system's power or the new software capabilities enabled by the new hardware.
 

Stacc

macrumors 6502a
Jun 22, 2005
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I deserve respect to you other comments about ARM and AMD but I'll give a chance to AMD to prove they're not dead yet.

But about Intel's slowdown on developing their cpu (besides the challenges on the node process), is not an enthusiast POV it's an wide user base POV, the PC market is cooling due lack of sensible improvements, simple people don't buy new pc because they older one still up for their needs and a new one don't enables nothing that's why you see now the focus on new form factors (mini pc, AIO) as sales strategy than the system's power or the new software capabilities enabled by the new hardware.

I don't want to sound like I'm bashing AMD. My only challenge to your post was assuming that Apple would use an AMD chip in the mac pro in the near future. AMD still has a ways to go before that could be the case.

I hope that Zen turns out to be everything promised. Even if it doesn't beat out skylake I think AMD can still make some compelling CPUs with improved integrated graphics.

Desktop and laptop sales have cooled, but a big piece of it is competition from mobile devices, not lack of software features. Again, Intel's slowdown isn't from being lazy, its technological challenges. Even if Intel isn't being challenged by AMD, they are being challenged by ARM chips from Apple and others. That is their biggest competition. The Core M product line is a response to this threat. Intel is smart enough to not be stuck making only PC chips in a post PC era.
 
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Mago

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Aug 16, 2011
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I don't want to sound like I'm bashing AMD. My only challenge to your post was assuming that Apple would use an AMD chip in the mac pro in the near future. AMD still has a ways to go before that could be the case.

I hope that Zen turns out to be everything promised. Even if it doesn't beat out skylake I think AMD can still make some compelling CPUs with improved integrated graphics.

Desktop and laptop sales have cooled, but a big piece of it is competition from mobile devices, not lack of software features. Again, Intel's slowdown isn't from being lazy, its technological challenges. Even if Intel isn't being challenged by AMD, they are being challenged by ARM chips from Apple and others. That is their biggest competition. The Core M product line is a response to this threat. Intel is smart enough to not be stuck making only PC chips in a post PC era.
Only thing I want to challenge is the "post - pc era" I was Jobs fan from NeXT But If there is something jobs failed is on that post - pc Era, if you see tablets (specially iPads) sales decline much more than pc, only smartphones keep up, the fact is that the post pc Era still far away, we are living the smartphone Era as ruling pc peripheral but everybody still needs an pc as the star where orbit their gadgets, not an iPad not the cloud.

What I think is that the Phablet will consolidate for a while and the tablet will follow the tendency on Windows, becoming a laptop w/p keyboard but running a full desktop OS, when Apple launches an iPad like device running full OSX officially the post - pc era will over.

The same is gonna happen soon to Android tablets where chrome OS will merge with Android on about 18m to gracefully kill Android as tablet OS.
 

tuxon86

macrumors 65816
May 22, 2012
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Just Reading: AMD is reading an ZEN APU with 16 cores ( a Zen Core is almost an 1:1 Haswel-EP Xeon core) with integrated GPU and HBM memory on the same Die...

http://wccftech.com/amd-allegedly-preparing-apu-sixteen-zen-cores-greenland-hbm-graphics/

Imagine an nnMacPro loaded with Two or three of these Monsters ?

Which is only speculation on your part comming from AMD marketing offices... AMD as a long history of over promising performance and falling quite short of them.
 

Mago

macrumors 68030
Aug 16, 2011
2,789
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Beyond the Thunderdome
Which is only speculation on your part comming from AMD marketing offices... AMD as a long history of over promising performance and falling quite short of them.
I'm not linked to AMD as another forum member *maybe* be linked and maybe actually leaked info on the nnMP (mp 7.1), I'm only speculating about the possible nnnMP (mp 8.1).
 

pat500000

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Jun 3, 2015
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The 5,1 was still being sold up until 2013 (Late), some of the 5,1's out there are barely 3 years old.

There's absolutely no way they Apple would do that.
Well...as of late...i'm seeing Apple acting weird. I don't know exactly what they are up to or planned to do.
 

koyoot

macrumors 603
Jun 5, 2012
5,939
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Which is only speculation on your part comming from AMD marketing offices... AMD as a long history of over promising performance and falling quite short of them.
Can you tell me where do you see there AMD marketing?

Guys, how can people not read properly what is written there? It was speculation that went on FUDZilla first, later was copied by every other clickbait site. The sample that is talked in that news is ONLY engineering sample that AMD designed to test few things. Maybe in far future we will see monster like this, but... how close is that future?

Today everything that is even rumored about AMD is considered as "AMD Marketing".
It is the same situation as is with Fury X called Overclockers Dream. There is one forum member that will say that CEO said this on presentation. She did not said that. Watch the keynote. It was Joe Macri that said that AFTER the presentation, and he was almost fired for that situation from AMD. 3 people were on Q&A session after presentation: Kuduri, Macri, and Richard Huddy. Kuduri and Huddy never said anything like that, only Macri.

But yet - AMD CEO blatantly lied on presentation. Or did she?
 

goMac

macrumors 604
Apr 15, 2004
7,663
1,694
I wouldn't be surprised if Apple stop supporting 5,1 once 7,1 comes out this summer.

The 5,1 is still well within Apple's documented support ranges.

Once it hasn't been sold for 5 or 6 years they might think about dropping it. So the 5,1 should still have a few years left on it.
 

koyoot

macrumors 603
Jun 5, 2012
5,939
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Isn't Apple is supporting old computers up to 5 years after showing them? So mid 2012 will be vintage in 2017?
 

Stacc

macrumors 6502a
Jun 22, 2005
888
353
Can you tell me where do you see there AMD marketing?

Guys, how can people not read properly what is written there? It was speculation that went on FUDZilla first, later was copied by every other clickbait site. The sample that is talked in that news is ONLY engineering sample that AMD designed to test few things. Maybe in far future we will see monster like this, but... how close is that future?

Today everything that is even rumored about AMD is considered as "AMD Marketing".
It is the same situation as is with Fury X called Overclockers Dream. There is one forum member that will say that CEO said this on presentation. She did not said that. Watch the keynote. It was Joe Macri that said that AFTER the presentation, and he was almost fired for that situation from AMD. 3 people were on Q&A session after presentation: Kuduri, Macri, and Richard Huddy. Kuduri and Huddy never said anything like that, only Macri.

But yet - AMD CEO blatantly lied on presentation. Or did she?

You make good points that AMD may not get the best treatment around the internet but they do seem to have a problem with managing the media. Part of it is that lately their graphics cards have been underperforming compared to Nvidia, so its hard to hype a worse product.

The other part is that they seem to struggle with timely product launches. Take the Fury launch. There were lots of rumors surrounding a february launch, which them slipped all the way to June. Conversely for Nvidia, there were few rumors until a couple weeks before the launch of the Titan X and later the GTX 980 Ti. Then they get announced and cards are available shortly after. Apple has a similar tactic. Try and keep any rumors from getting out there and make sure you have your product available on launch day.

This time around it seems like AMD has already stated it has a June/July launch window while Nvidia is tight lipped. It seems like they never learn their lesson. Hopefully they deliver some form of Polaris by then.
 

koyoot

macrumors 603
Jun 5, 2012
5,939
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According to current reviews: The only places where AMD GPUs are underperforming is top of the line: Titan X/Fury X and Mobile. What is more, Fury X in Techpowerup reviews shows that in most games at 4K Fury X is faster than reference model of GTX 980 Ti.

Every other market segment shows that AMD GPUs not only have higher performance, but better prices.

What is even funnier: Fury Nano currently on NewEgg sells for 459$ after rebate. Nano is 20% faster, and uses 10W more than GTX980 and costs less(cheapest GTX980on newegg after rebate: 469$).
Now picture this: Someone thinks about buying Titan X for 1000$. And has a choice of: Crossfiring Fury Nano's or single Titan X.
 
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pat500000

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The 5,1 is still well within Apple's documented support ranges.

Once it hasn't been sold for 5 or 6 years they might think about dropping it. So the 5,1 should still have a few years left on it.
Good for ..up to 7 years? I think...like 2017?
 

Stacc

macrumors 6502a
Jun 22, 2005
888
353
According to current reviews: The only places where AMD GPUs are underperforming is top of the line: Titan X/Fury X and Mobile. What is more, Fury X in Techpowerup reviews shows that in most games at 4K Fury X is faster than reference model of GTX 980 Ti.

Every other market segment shows that AMD GPUs not only have higher performance, but better prices.

I am all for AMD and I think Apple made the right choice using AMD in macs but Nvidia's maxwell crushed AMD in raw performance and performance per watt when it comes to gaming. Here is a techpowerup review of a factory overclocked 980 Ti that wins in every benchmark. AMD still offers a good value with the 390/X series but thats only because they boosted Hawaii's clocks up sending power usage through the roof.
 

koyoot

macrumors 603
Jun 5, 2012
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1,853
I am all for AMD and I think Apple made the right choice using AMD in macs but Nvidia's maxwell crushed AMD in raw performance and performance per watt when it comes to gaming. Here is a techpowerup review of a factory overclocked 980 Ti that wins in every benchmark. AMD still offers a good value with the 390/X series but thats only because they boosted Hawaii's clocks up sending power usage through the roof.
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Gigabyte/GTX_980_Ti_Waterforce/6.html

Blue one line is reference model of GTX 980 Ti. I counted 4K resolution: 10 of 15 games is where Fury X wins with reference model of GTX 980 Ti. And this review is most actual with the most current drivers. History will repeat itself again. When the GTX 780 Ti launched it was faster than R9 290X. Now, mostly 290X is faster than Nvidia GPU.

Also, explain this: http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Powercolor/R9_390_PCS_Plus/28.html
Why does Grenada with higher clocks than R9 290 and twice the amount of RAM, and much higher clocks on RAM uses less power than R9 290? ;)

Because the voltages haven't been touched ;).

And if anyone wan't to say that I am AMD fanboy, better think twice. Like I've said before, I have Nvidia GTX980 with Haswell Xeon E3 CPU machine.
 
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carestudio

macrumors 6502a
Aug 6, 2008
678
178
Here we go again...
The DP1.3 and TB3 issue also has me wondering.
News/leaks on the TB3 display would be also nice.
Never loose hope though...

well Thunderbolt 3 is great because it's free in skylake :) however, do you really need Thunderbolt 3 devices?
I just read a good article here talking about USB-C and Thunderbolt
http://crazydiamondstar.blogspot.com/2016/01/thunderbolt-interface-that-was-invented.html

looks like you really dont need Thunderbolt 3 devices unless you want "speed"...
 

AidenShaw

macrumors P6
Feb 8, 2003
18,667
4,677
The Peninsula
Conversely for Nvidia, there were few rumors until a couple weeks before the launch of the Titan X and later the GTX 980 Ti. Then they get announced and cards are available shortly after. Apple has a similar tactic. Try and keep any rumors from getting out there and make sure you have your product available on launch day.
One difference between Apple and Nvidia, though, is that Nvidia openly talks about roadmaps and upcoming features - but Nvidia doesn't say much about specific products and dates.

Apple doesn't say much.

AMD has to keep their marketing pitching stuff that may, but often doesn't, ship.

It this point, AMD is like the Monty Python "I'm Not Dead Yet" clip (warning - dark humour) -


AMD has to convince people that they're still alive.
 
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koyoot

macrumors 603
Jun 5, 2012
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One difference between Apple and Nvidia, though, is that Nvidia openly talks about roadmaps and upcoming features - but Nvidia doesn't say much about specific products and dates.

Apple doesn't say much.
Apple does not say ANYTHING about their roadmaps ;).
And that may be a bugger.
 

AidenShaw

macrumors P6
Feb 8, 2003
18,667
4,677
The Peninsula
Apple does not say ANYTHING about their roadmaps ;).
And that may be a bugger.
I went for parallel constructs - "Nvidia doesn't say much..." followed by "Apple doesn't say much.". The period said exactly what you said. ;)

But you're right that it's a bugger for many. (Although it would be nice if that vulgar homophobic term disappeared from common usage - http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/bugger . A word that's a synonym for "sodomize" isn't appropriate for normal work conversation - unless your point is to imply that Apple figuratively sodomizes its customers.)

Although Apple burned its bridges with many professionals with the weak MP6,1, Apple still worries those who like the MP6,1 because there's no future commitment to it.

If you have six creatives happily creating on their MP6,1 systems, what do you do if you're thinking about hiring two or three more over the next quarter or two? You'll have no warning when the MP6,1 drops off the order sheet for the MP7,1. You don't know if you can order one next Monday, let alone next quarter.
 
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