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2016 nMP

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Mago

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Aug 16, 2011
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Beyond the Thunderdome
Stacc said:
Very little of this is true. You can daisy chain peripherals in a 5k over thunderbolt 3 setup. You simply are limited to the bandwidth left over after the two displayport 1.2 streams. I suggest you read this before you keep saying things over and over that are not true.

If the retina display is implemented with thunderbolt 3 and displayport 1.2 with MST there is no reason skylake Iris Pro based graphics can't drive it. They support 3 displayport 1.2 streams. This means a skylake based mac could drive a 5k and a 4k display.



My opinion is that Apple will release a retina thunderbolt display that is 27" at 5k. It will be driven via dual displayport 1.2 streams over thunderbolt 3. There was a time a couple years ago that macs did not work very well with MST setups but support has improved. I bet its partially driven by the release of the iMac 5k (which uses a proprietary MST like setup) and the pending release of the external display. For instance any mac with external graphics (including the 15" macbook pro w/AMD) supports the Dell 5k display using 2 displayport cables.
Click to expand...

Thanks stacc

After reading the details on how thunderbolt 3 handles data, now I figure that the 5K thunderbolt display its clearly possible if not imminent, according the pdf a 5K display leaves 18GBps of bandwidth available good enough for a full tb1 class peripheral plus a full bandwidth usb3 .

735df251473bfcebdfb5c11011516e5d.jpg


But I disagree on iris pro suppport for 5K notwithstanding it can stream 3 4K, I don't count on this gpu suppporting natively mst, at least not in 3D mode very unlikely,well let's see what offers apple, but including AMD Polaris as a confirmed gpu supplier for desktop and laptops gives a cue.
 
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richmlow

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Jul 17, 2002
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Is this true? If so, maybe there's an upcoming Mac Pro update very soon!? =)




AJClayton said:
Apologies if someone's already mentioned this. I've been dipping in and out of this thread and can't claim to have read what everyone has to say.

Apple appear to have updated their Mac Pro page to state that you can connect "up to 3 5K displays". I'm sure it used to say 4K. Then again, I don't look at it very often.

I'm using a 31" true 4K display on my nMP here and I love the crisp text on it. Looks "retina" to me... even with my glasses on. :)
Click to expand...
 
AidenShaw

AidenShaw

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Feb 8, 2003
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The Peninsula
Mago said:
Not true, with active cables you can go 2m(7ft) or up to 60m (optic fiber) at full 40GBps.

https://blog.startech.com/post/thunderbolt-3-the-basics/
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TBD: from that link: In the future we will offer active cables which will provide 40Gbps of bandwidth at longer lengths.

And I hope that the "active cables" don't have the same price premium as for Twin-Ax (10 GbE) active cables - $100 per metre is a bit of a shock.
 
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tralfaz

tralfaz

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Jun 20, 2013
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All this talk of DP 1.3 and TB3, 4K, 5K, and even 8K displays just seems to make the idea of merging video and general purpose I/O in a single I/O interface seem like a bad idea. It probably made sense when 2560x1600 was was pretty much the top end resolution for high end displays, but now seems absurd with the explosion in display pixels.

Am I mistaken in thinking that when the display is connected directly to the GPU, the GPU can generate the required data output and send it directly to the display without ever impacting the I/O bus? If so, why would you saturate your I/O bus just to constantly belch out display data if it could be avoided. I get that is makes some sense for laptops as it saves space, but for desktops it just seems to be becoming a worse idea the more time goes by.
 
G

goMac

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Apr 15, 2004
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There really isn't a good reason a 5K Thunderbolt Display has to be single stream. That's an implementation detail no one is going to care about. If no one else does, why will Apple?
 
Synchro3

Synchro3

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goMac said:
There really isn't a good reason a 5K Thunderbolt Display has to be single stream. That's an implementation detail no one is going to care about. If no one else does, why will Apple?
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm beginning to think if a 27 inch monitor like the Dell P2715Q with 4K resolution is an appropriate solution, precisely because there is no confirmation that next generation Pascal GPU's will have DisplayPort 1.3. And 4K SST displays you can already run with Kepler cards. But what bothers me is that 1440p interpolated resolution on a 4K display will not be the same as with an original 1440p display.
 
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Zarniwoop

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Could an active cable fix the 1m DP 1.3 limitation through USB type-c?

Synopsys is going to release TSMC Finfet16 based low-power usb3.1/dp 1.3/usb type-c controller and it should be available during Q3/16. Just saying. It's a solution for any platform. Apple has done ASIC designing with Synopsys before.

"IP solution which integrates USB Type-C™ (USB-C™), SuperSpeed USB 10 Gbps (USB 3.1 Gen 2) and DisplayPort 1.3 interfaces with High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection (HDCP) 2.2 IP. The solution accelerates development of mobile and digital office system-on-chips (SoCs) that require 10 Gbps data transfer and delivery of secure audio/video content and power through a single USB Type-C connector." - Synopsys press release

That could be ideal replacement for current Thunderbolt v.1 display conector. 10Gbps data + DP1.3 in same cable. But Q3/16 means that new computers and displays available at WWDC... just introduction maybe, but not available before fall.. makes me think how Apple will differentiate ports, if there are also USB type-c TB3's.

But, this could be a solution for Apple's A10 SoC.
 
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M

Mago

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Aug 16, 2011
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Zarniwoop said:
Could an active cable fix the 1m DP 1.3 limitation through USB type-c?

Synopsys is going to release TSMC Finfet16 based low-power usb3.1/dp 1.3/usb type-c controller and it should be available during Q3/16. Just saying. It's a solution for any platform. Apple has done ASIC designing with Synopsys before.

"IP solution which integrates USB Type-C™ (USB-C™), SuperSpeed USB 10 Gbps (USB 3.1 Gen 2) and DisplayPort 1.3 interfaces with High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection (HDCP) 2.2 IP. The solution accelerates development of mobile and digital office system-on-chips (SoCs) that require 10 Gbps data transfer and delivery of secure audio/video content and power through a single USB Type-C connector." - Synopsys press release

That could be ideal replacement for current Thunderbolt v.1 display conector. 10Gbps data + DP1.3 in same cable. But Q3/16 means that new computers and displays available at WWDC... just introduction maybe, but not available before fall.. makes me think how Apple will differentiate ports, if there are also USB type-c TB3's.

But, this could be a solution for Apple's A10 SoC.
Click to expand...
There is no actual necessity for Dp1.3 if you have access to MST and dual dp1.2 interfaces on target display (along a competent GPU), I doubt Apple will introduce dp1.3 until there are enough market demand for this (as to daisy chain two 5K display you actually don't need dp1.3 for a single thunderbolt display).

I believe Apple will reveal its thunderbolt display soon at 5K60Hz MST and loaded with the same accessories (lan,webcam,4 usb3, another thunderbolt 3/2 -single channel but far enough for ssd, raid cages 10gbt)
 
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Zarniwoop

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Mago said:
There is no actual necessity for Dp1.3 if you have access to MST and dual dp1.2 interfaces on target display (along a competent GPU), I doubt Apple will introduce dp1.3 until there are enough market demand for this (as to daisy chain two 5K display you actually don't need dp1.3 for a single thunderbolt display).

I believe Apple will reveal its thunderbolt display soon at 5K60Hz MST and loaded with the same accessories (lan,webcam,4 usb3, another thunderbolt 3/2 -single channel but far enough for ssd, raid cages 10gbt)
Click to expand...
Yes, maybe Synapsys tech is for iToys.

But tell me, how many 5k HDR displays you can connect with DP1.2 MST? And what about adaptive sync, if it can run 120Hz/fps?

Update: it seems to reach both goals, they'd need DP 1.4. And AMD has promised that next GPU's support via DP 1.3 5k/60Hz SDR or 4k/60Hz HDR or 4k/120Hz SDR.

Next pro display is going to be max 4k then.. to be useful for studio work. But it it has to support DP 1.3 to get HDR support.

So, I suppose there's going to be the cheaper 27" 1440p display updated with adaptive sync and usb type-c TB2 (for Macbook for instance, doesn't support 4k/60Hz but it'll work as a recharger same time) AND 24" 4k HDR Studio display.
 
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Serban

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Jan 8, 2013
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so with the next MP and macbook pros and maybe mac mini, can we expect that all can drive somehow a 4k display?
 
AidenShaw

AidenShaw

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Synchro3 said:
Yeah, I'm beginning to think if a 27 inch monitor like the Dell P2715Q with 4K resolution is an appropriate solution, precisely because there is no confirmation that next generation Pascal GPU's will have DisplayPort 1.3. And 4K SST displays you can already run with Kepler cards. But what bothers me is that 1440p interpolated resolution on a 4K display will not be the same as with an original 1440p display.
Click to expand...
It can be better, particularly with text.

I run about 5 P2715Q monitors (a triple head at work, a dual head at home), usually set to 150% in Windows 10 (effectively 2560x1440). Text is nice and crisp - font smoothing and edge sharpening improve the experience. About the only "soft" text that I see is in VMware consoles - VMware isn't aware of the scaling and hides it from Windows.

Sometime when the softness bothers me, I'll remote desktop into the VM - the RDP console is sharp.

Do give the 4K monitor a try - return it if you don't like the effects on your system.
 
M

Mago

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Beyond the Thunderdome
Zarniwoop said:
Yes, maybe Synapsys tech is for iToys.

But tell me, how many 5k HDR displays you can connect with DP1.2 MST? And what about adaptive sync, if it can run 120Hz/fps?

Update: it seems to reach both goals, they'd need DP 1.4. And AMD has promised that next GPU's support via DP 1.3 5k/60Hz SDR or 4k/60Hz HDR or 4k/120Hz SDR.

Next pro display is going to be max 4k then.. to be useful for studio work. But it it has to support DP 1.3 to get HDR support.

So, I suppose there's going to be the cheaper 27" 1440p display updated with adaptive sync and usb type-c TB2 (for Macbook for instance, it'll work as a recharger same time) AND 24" 4k Studio display
Click to expand...

If you have a 10bit panel you have HDR period, HDR actually depends on how the images are captured and processed, and the codec but not at the display interface (as long it support 10bit color dept).

Other features as adaptive sync are more a gpu feature than an interface specification,but I doubt Apple will care of hardcore gamers needs.

So adding 10bit color dept to an stream (its supported by dp1.2a) only increases 1/5 the data flow, tb3 still have enough bandwidth for this, and I'm pretty sure the next thunderbolt display will have this capability.

Thunderbolt its aimed at mainstream,I don't believe apple will care in very specialized studio hardware that only account for 1/10000 of the demand (if any).

But even if apple users needs to plug an studio class display, the included HDMI 2 interface have they covered, but they'll (as ever been) need to go to 3rd party for such specialized hardware.

Each TB3 should support 1 5K Thunderbolt display each, as the current mac pro supports 3 5K displays the updated mac pro should support a 5K display at each TB3 port (4 to 10 are possible on the u-nMP ) plus an 8K display at its HDMI 2.0b
 
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S

Stacc

macrumors 6502a
Jun 22, 2005
888
353
Zarniwoop said:
Could an active cable fix the 1m DP 1.3 limitation through USB type-c?

Synopsys is going to release TSMC Finfet16 based low-power usb3.1/dp 1.3/usb type-c controller and it should be available during Q3/16. Just saying. It's a solution for any platform. Apple has done ASIC designing with Synopsys before.

"IP solution which integrates USB Type-C™ (USB-C™), SuperSpeed USB 10 Gbps (USB 3.1 Gen 2) and DisplayPort 1.3 interfaces with High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection (HDCP) 2.2 IP. The solution accelerates development of mobile and digital office system-on-chips (SoCs) that require 10 Gbps data transfer and delivery of secure audio/video content and power through a single USB Type-C connector." - Synopsys press release

That could be ideal replacement for current Thunderbolt v.1 display conector. 10Gbps data + DP1.3 in same cable. But Q3/16 means that new computers and displays available at WWDC... just introduction maybe, but not available before fall.. makes me think how Apple will differentiate ports, if there are also USB type-c TB3's.

But, this could be a solution for Apple's A10 SoC.
Click to expand...

Remember, this has the same constraints as any other USB-C controller, this one is just made at 16 nm. That means it can't do displayport 1.3 and 10 Gbps data at the same time. There aren't enough pins in the connector.

Zarniwoop said:
Yes, maybe Synapsys tech is for iToys.

But tell me, how many 5k HDR displays you can connect with DP1.2 MST? And what about adaptive sync, if it can run 120Hz/fps?

Update: it seems to reach both goals, they'd need DP 1.4. And AMD has promised that next GPU's support via DP 1.3 5k/60Hz SDR or 4k/60Hz HDR or 4k/120Hz SDR.

Next pro display is going to be max 4k then.. to be useful for studio work. But it it has to support DP 1.3 to get HDR support.

So, I suppose there's going to be the cheaper 27" 1440p display updated with adaptive sync and usb type-c TB2 (for Macbook for instance, doesn't support 4k/60Hz but it'll work as a recharger same time) AND 24" 4k HDR Studio display.
Click to expand...

If Apple wanted to release a 4k display they could have done it a long time ago. Either we are never getting a new display or they have been waiting for thunderbolt 3 to release a 5k external display.

If you are not happy with Apple's displays the next mac pro should support displayport 1.3 since all the graphics cards that are about to be released will support it.

Serban said:
so with the next MP and macbook pros and maybe mac mini, can we expect that all can drive somehow a 4k display?
Click to expand...

All the current macs can drive a 4k display at 60 Hz except the macbook. I suspect Apple won't bother with supporting the 5k display on the macbook since its somewhat underpowered to always be tethered to a desk.
 
M

Mago

macrumors 68030
Aug 16, 2011
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912
Beyond the Thunderdome
tralfaz said:
All this talk of DP 1.3 and TB3, 4K, 5K, and even 8K displays just seems to make the idea of merging video and general purpose I/O in a single I/O interface seem like a bad idea. It probably made sense when 2560x1600 was was pretty much the top end resolution for high end displays, but now seems absurd with the explosion in display pixels.

Am I mistaken in thinking that when the display is connected directly to the GPU, the GPU can generate the required data output and send it directly to the display without ever impacting the I/O bus? If so, why would you saturate your I/O bus just to constantly belch out display data if it could be avoided. I get that is makes some sense for laptops as it saves space, but for desktops it just seems to be becoming a worse idea the more time goes by.
Click to expand...
When USB was proposed this was one if it's "predicted" goals, a single ultra high speed serial interface delivering all the I/O, but lacked the "sine cua non" support from display manufacturers that favor purpose specific interfaces (with premium) than commodity hardwire.

Yes theoretically it's possible to deliver a digital uncompressed (compressed too) video signal thru USB (as every digital stream are just bits, routing them from GPU to USB its just matter of mature dma switches ), this also could make displays cheaper, but the standards war (and USB's consortium delays) killed it before born.
 
Z

Zarniwoop

macrumors 65816
Aug 12, 2009
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West coast, Finland
Mago said:
If you have a 10bit panel you have HDR period, HDR actually depends on how the images are captured and processed, and the codec but not at the display interface (as long it support 10bit color dept).
Click to expand...

Panel is just one thing, you need a means to deliver the content also in HDR. And that requires (accroding to AMD) DP 1.3.

So HDR is very Pro feature and only AMD's Fiji has and Polaris will have support.

And Adaptive sync is a very PRO thing too; Finaly you could view your NTSC and PAL content on same screen without tearing or stuttering. No need for extra monitor for that. Also, it's a power saving feature. Just read the mumbo-jumbo about it from iPad Pro introduction. Apple didn't promote it as a gamer feature. Although that is how AMD/Nvidia promoted it first to gamers, but try to forget that.
 
M

Mago

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koyoot

koyoot

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Jun 5, 2012
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That Ellesmere DS, and Ellesmere XT will be on GTX 980 Ti level of performance.

Pascal still seems to bring higher performance, ultimately. 2560 CUDA cores clocked at 1.48 GHz would bring 7.6 TFLOPs of compute power.

The question is: in what thermal envelope, and what price...
 
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