(2019) 16" is HOT & NOISY with an external monitor! :(

[AFPBoy]

PS - I had the same stand until recently..

Did you happen to use the mStand with your MBP 16-inch?

 

[mrmachine79]

I'm not sure why a flat graph is so interesting, but... okay, here you go:

I think you'll get your 16" soon, so you'll most likely be able to tell for yourself how the rest of the other scenarios play out.

I think Intel Power Gadget lies about CPU power consumption, which would be consistent with Intel's M.O. as they have tried to "blind" the world to the fact that their CPUs have stayed on the same manufacturing process for 4 years now. Or otherwise, I don't see how 45-50W reported in Intel Power Gadget + 20W for dGPU translates to >90W power draw. Or if iStat is "over-reporting" power consumption now, we do have to question whether the 20W GPU power draw is even accurate (kinda brings this whole thread into question then). I'd err on the side of iStat here.

But beside the point, all of that is not to show that I have a Godly 16" MacBook that can draw more power than any other 16". It's just to say... I have not seen CPU frequencies drop below base clocks yet, with my own usage. I'm pretty certain that you can probably devise a usage where both the dGPU and the CPU need to be 100% stressed at all times, and sure, something will have to give. The 100W max power consumption is actually even more daunting then given the discrepancy between what Intel Power Gadget reports and what iStat reports.

I don't think one or the other is more accurate. But Intel Power Gadget shows all the relevant figures in equal time scale graphs. 50+20 is 70W for CPU and GPU. Everything else in the system also draws power, and also has to fit within ~96W (power supply limit) and TDP cooling ability.

Your results show 46-50W and 2.8-2.9GHz sustained with dGPU, which is almost exactly what my 15" gets with the same 2.3GHz CPU and internal display only (iGPU only, 0W dGPU) or dual display with eGPU (0-5W dGPU). But I think your 16" should get 62-67W sustained with internal display only (from what I've seen in other reviews). That's a drop of about 12-21W in CPU power from what I expect is the max, or 20-32%, and that is in range with the corresponding excess Radeon power draw.

It is encouraging that the additional cooling capacity of the 16 inch seems able to sustain 15" iGPU only levels of CPU performance, even with the dGPU. But I imagine that even medium load on the dGPU with the CPU under load could have more significant impacts.

I am looking forward to testing 15" and 16" side by side, with and without eGPU.

 

[mrmachine79]

Same issue here..... 2018 15" MBP, 2.9GHz, 32Gb, Radeon Pro 560X 4Gb, 2x Dell P2715Q 4K external displays, USB-C -> DP, with essentially no CPU usage (srsly, a browser and RDP client, not doing a freaking thing) would get high kernel_task throttling and maxed fan speed. EXACT same behavior happened with my 2015 15" MBP, 2018 15" MBP AND 2020 16" MBP (which I returned).... Seems like it's the worst it's ever been. Tried in clamshell mode, open, in a dock, out of a dock, same behavior. Only thing that prevents it is turning off displays. For example I cant do video conferencing with 2 external displays in clamshell mode, kernel_task goes crazy immediately, but it works if I do it with one display (but even with one display I'll hit it if I do anything too CPU intensive). I've also tried moving cables around to different ports, disabling turbo boost, blowing out dust (which can be legitimate sometimes), the reset PRAM/NVRAM song-n-dance more times than I care to remember, no change.

Another thing I wanted to note is that I'm pretty sure Catalina has introduced a change in how it reports kernel_task CPU usage when it throttles. I've experienced the throttling for going on 5 years so I know how it "feels".... Prior to Catalina, I could feel it starting to throttle, things would start to get sluggish and fan speed would start to increase even tho you weren't doing anything. You'd jump over to Activity Monitor and sure enough kernel_task was revving up. After Catalina I still experience the same throttling BUT Activity Monitor does not report the kernel_task CPU usage until a certain threshold (not sure what that threshold is but it doesn't show it until it gets really bad). It seems like they didn't want users to be able to see that kernel_task is throttling, at least at lower levels anyways. Seems like a deceptive move as it leaves users running sluggish but they cant see why. And now when they go to report it all they can say is that it's "slow" which doesn't tell you anything. If they could report that kernel_task had high CPU then that would tell you something.

Honestly, I think the only thing that will make Apple acknowledge this issue is yet another class action lawsuit. Seems like that's the only thing they listen too these days...

This is exactly the same behaviour was struggling with on a 2019 15" 2.3GHz i9 32GB Radeon 560X. With 85-90% idle CPU, several apps like Chrome, Slack, Git Fork, Terminal, VS Code running (but idle), then doing a video conference for ~10 minutes, then kernel_task will go as high as 1000% and CPU frequency as low as 800MHz.

The video conference and whole system starts freezing up for 10s at a time if I try to do anything (like switch to or launch another app) at this point.

I'm working around the issue with a Razer Core X Chroma eGPU and Sapphire Pulse RX 5500 XT graphics card. With this, dGPU power draw is 0-5W down from 15W. The dGPU is still used for some apps (I just let macOS decide, rather than forcing all to the eGPU), but I am yet to see high kernel_task or freezing up since I started using the eGPU.

This is an expensive workaround that should not be necessary, but it does allow my CPU to now sustain ~2.8-3.1GHz under load (CPU and eGPU benchmark stress tests) and often maintain 3.5-4GHz under normal use.

I don't think I actually need anything more than an iGPU to drive the display, as I'm not doing any graphics work. It's crazy that I had to pay for a dGPU I don't really need, forced to use it to drive an external display which cripples CPU performance, and then had to pay again for an eGPU I don't really need just to "deactivate" or bypass the dGPU.

Check these earlier posts for more details on the use of an eGPU to work around high kernel_task problems:

- https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...r.2211747/page-39?post=28332725#post-28332725
- https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...r.2211747/page-57?post=28461391#post-28461391

The use of an eGPU is not without its own problems, though. Any apps that are using eGPU will need to be quit and re-launched when you need to unplug. You can't just yank the cable and go. Also fan noise is a tiny bit louder than idle MBP fans (~2k RPM). And there's a consistent additional 40W power draw that you'll have to pay for indefinitely, on top of the high cost for the eGPU itself.

 

[wegster]

Idle fans at 1500-1800 are listed as 0% in iStats.

Thanks - once I set up iStats how I want it I forget about it until I need to add/remove sensors.
I don’t use the percentage option and would have never written code where non-zero == 0(percent) so me culpa and apologies to crouch.

Gonna now have to play more with iStats as I’m now wondering what the heck value percentage is where non-zero/active shows as 0%. Does it then just assume min speed is zero, max is 100%, and scale linearly or chunk from e.g. 0, 25, 50, 75, 100%?
[automerge]1590029675[/automerge]

Did you happen to use the mStand with your MBP 16-inch?

Briefly but had to ‘upgrade’ to position laptop, external display and Sidecar iPad Pro to line up sanely...which wound up needing a monitor stand to raise base external display, lower display position to compensate but clear top of iPad Pro vs dock icons, then adjustable MBP stand to line up with bottom of display. That was not an inexpensive path to basically gain 1.5” height from the displays ability to adjust upwards..

Still had the power draw on the other stand, but can’t be 100% on fan speed impact. I think I had that stand going back to white MacBook days, and usually installed “FinsUp” as both a convenient handle on unibody MBPs, possible added heat sink, and keeping an air gap on surfaces. FinsUp closed down, and couldn’t find an equivalently air-gapped stand that was adjustable, so went with at least vented with some standoffs to ensure a gap still existed between the stand and the bottom of the MBP 16. On iPad at moment but posted a pic in the big 11 vs 12.9 iPad Pro recent thread...

ETA - pic of setup, now w/out mStand...

 

[wegster]

Anyone lined up to test this with the latest 10.15.5 b5 that dropped today? Or at least identify if the dGPU driver version has changed?

Not yet, work too busy to risk a beta issue in critical work software this round through, and not enough time to do full backup/restore if needed.. might consider this weekend after scanning known issues..

 

[IgorK]

Did you happen to use the mStand with your MBP 16-inch?

I did — works fine.

 

[pufferbatterie]

Anyone lined up to test this with the latest 10.15.5 b5 that dropped today? Or at least identify if the dGPU driver version has changed?

Not yet, work too busy to risk a beta issue in critical work software this round through, and not enough time to do full backup/restore if needed.. might consider this weekend after scanning known issues..

silver linings or just another outlook security update..?

is there any way to get detailed release notes on macOS?

 

[wegster]

silver linings or just another outlook security update..?

is there any way to get detailed release notes on macOS?

If you're on a beta there are known issues discussion forums among others, and the beta builds usually include a shorter version of known issues.

For normal macOS releases - yeah, not so much that I'm aware of.

 

[laz232]

It’s normal for a computer to get hot when it’s working hard--always has. Don’t tell us it’s on your lap when connected to an external display!

Funny - here are some facts:

LiIon batteries suffer permanent capacity degradation when kept at high temperature.
Apple does not provide user-serviceable batteries - and - in my country - battery service by Apple Authorised repair centres is 300USD - even in the USA is not exactly cheap.
Therefore the OP has good reasons to be annoyed by Apple's implementation of dGPU / iGPU switching with an external monitor

To the OP: unfortunately this a limitation of the routing of the external DisplayPort (over USB-C) implementation - meaning that the dGPU is the only one that is connected to the external interfaces and must therefore be turned on.
[automerge]1590062559[/automerge]

Show us your activity monitor. There is something wrong.

There is nothing wrong - it is the implementation of external display control that requires the use of the dGPU to connect the DisplayPort lanes.

My work never needs dGPU (because the design work I do is not GFX related) - the mere connection of an external displays causes the dGPU to be turned on - and therefore increases the MBP power dissipation by about 5-10W even in idle.

 

[am2am]

My MacBook Pro 2019 13” with 4 thunderbolts gets crazy, fans are full blast 6000 rpm when I connect it the this monitor. I chatted with apple support and they say it is because of the monitor. I tried to connect it my 55” Samsung tv and it is very normal. What could wrong with the monitor and what can I do to resolve it?

View attachment 916909

Something is off here (not related to external monitor) - your istats screenshot.
Based on temps there is absolutely NO reason for fans to max.

Two things coming to my mind to explain it:

1. You have used fan management software and left it at max.
If you have used istats to change fans profile and then switch back to "System Controlled" you may need to restart istats completely. It happened to me few times that istats somehow puts fans at max after I switch from manual to "System Controlled" - might be software bug. After restart all went back to normal.

2. Your hardware is broken.

With your temps level I would expect around 2-2.5k rpm fans

EDIT
Sorry - ignore. I've just realized this is about 13 inch model. The information I've provided relates to 16inch where temp around 60C is not causing fans to spin-ups. I don't know how it works on 13".

 

[HarryPot]

So, after more than 2 months not coming to the office. I came by today.
My office is normally cool. Around 20-23C. Right now it is on the hotter side, since it's starting to get hot outside, and the AC is not set at max.

My MBP 16" has been connected for around 30 minutes, and fans have not gone above 2200RPM.
Temp is stable at around 55C.
Turbo Boost is enabled.
I'm doing my normal workflow. Safari, Chrome, Excel, Mail, Music, Web Development.

With this I can almost guarantee that the people that don't have "problems", is just because they live in cold places or have the AC running at low temps.


EDIT ----

30 minutes more, and same.
I used a more intensive app and fans went to 2600RPM, CPU to 57C. Couldn't hear a thing.

Could this mean that Apple simply needs to allow the CPU to get 10C hotter when connected to an external display.
At my home, same scenario, fans went to 5000RPM, and the CPU temp was just 10C higher.

 

[lukelol]

My 2019 Macbook Pro 16" + MSI Prestige PS341WU via USB-C (also tried Thunderbolt to DVI):
--With no applications running: GPU usage 20-21 Watts, fan speed above 3800 RPM.
--While watching a YouTube video in Chrome on the external monitor: GPU Usage 21-23 Watts and fan speed between 4300 RPM and 5000 RPM (quite loud).

My 2014 Macbook Pro 15" (NVIDIA 750M) via Thunderbolt->DVI, using the same external monitor resolution settings I'm seeing:
--With no applications running: ~16 watts GPU usage and fan speed under 3000 RPM (silent).
--While watching a YouTube video in Chrome on the external monitor: GPU Usage 15-17 Watts and fan speed under 3000 RPM (silent).

Just heard from aPpLe eNgInEEriNg after Temp monitor info + test user account trial + debug info from computer sent to apple + re-install OS + SMC reset: aPpLe eNgInEEriNg says "eXpEcTeD bEhAvIoUr"

nice.
[thanks for trying, Kyle @ Apple]

 

[covertsurfer]

Damn it Kyle!

 

[MrGimper]

Damn it Kyle!

Intended South Park reference?

 

[hawknovice]

I just wanted to chime in with my experiences with this issue. I recently purchased a refurb Macbook Pro 16" 2.4 GHz i9.

I have it connected to an Aten UH7230 dock via a single thunderbolt cable that also charges my mac. Connected to the dock I have dual Dell U2515H displays (2560 x 1440). One is connected by the Aten's Displayport out, and the other via the Aten's Thunderbolt 3 out via a USB-C to Displayport cable. I keep the mac open, so three screens in total.

According to iStat, Radeon High Side consumes about 20 watts when everything is connected. The overall temperature reported by IStat increases from 40 degrees to 60 degrees celcius. At idle, for example right now when i'm typing this message in Chrome the fans are at about 1900 RPM, hardly audible.

Being a software developer, as soon as I compile some code or do something CPU intensive the fans do speed up to a noisy level very quickly, however they also slow back down quickly. Throughout the day, when i'm using the laptop for more functions the fans do speed up and regularly sit at about 2500 RPM. Certainly audible, but not too bad. The area above the touch bar gets very hot, but the palm rests and general keyboard are not too bad. My hands do get a bit sweaty, and I notice the heat radiating from the laptop and it's a bit annoying.

I raised a case with Apple support, and after being escalated to an engineer to investigate they have come back with "this is by design, and normal behaviour". As far as I am concerned, whether it's a bug or not, Apple are most likely not going to do anything about it. The options right now are to live with it, or return it.

I considered swapping it for the new 2020 13" model however there are so many conflicting reports. Some say the fan is whisper quiet when connected to external displays, some say it's noisier and hotter than the 16".

I have decided that I am going to live with the issues as this laptop is awesome in just about every other way.

 

[bomby0]

I just wanted to chime in with my experiences with this issue. I recently purchased a refurb Macbook Pro 16" 2.4 GHz i9.

I have it connected to an Aten UH7230 dock via a single thunderbolt cable that also charges my mac. Connected to the dock I have dual Dell U2515H displays (2560 x 1440). One is connected by the Aten's Displayport out, and the other via the Aten's Thunderbolt 3 out via a USB-C to Displayport cable. I keep the mac open, so three screens in total.

According to iStat, Radeon High Side consumes about 20 watts when everything is connected. The overall temperature reported by IStat increases from 40 degrees to 60 degrees celcius. At idle, for example right now when i'm typing this message in Chrome the fans are at about 1900 RPM, hardly audible.

Being a software developer, as soon as I compile some code or do something CPU intensive the fans do speed up to a noisy level very quickly, however they also slow back down quickly. Throughout the day, when i'm using the laptop for more functions the fans do speed up and regularly sit at about 2500 RPM. Certainly audible, but not too bad. The area above the touch bar gets very hot, but the palm rests and general keyboard are not too bad. My hands do get a bit sweaty, and I notice the heat radiating from the laptop and it's a bit annoying.

I raised a case with Apple support, and after being escalated to an engineer to investigate they have come back with "this is by design, and normal behaviour". As far as I am concerned, whether it's a bug or not, Apple are most likely not going to do anything about it. The options right now are to live with it, or return it.

I considered swapping it for the new 2020 13" model however there are so many conflicting reports. Some say the fan is whisper quiet when connected to external displays, some say it's noisier and hotter than the 16".

I have decided that I am going to live with the issues as this laptop is awesome in just about every other way.

Pretty insane Apple thinks this is "normal" behavior. My 2013 13" Macbook Pro ran the exact same external monitor fine without the fans spinning up. So 6 years newer laptop and the performance is worse... nice job Apple

I bet we get a ton of dead GPUs in a year with this kind of heat tbh

 

[HarryPot]

Pretty insane Apple thinks this is "normal" behavior. My 2013 13" Macbook Pro ran the exact same external monitor fine without the fans spinning up. So 6 years newer laptop and the performance is worse... nice job Apple

I bet we get a ton of dead GPUs in a year with this kind of heat tbh

To be honest. Performance is not degraded. And the computer keeps quite cool with the fans running at max.

Still, I agree. Fans going insane for just connecting an external display is a very bad design.

 

[mrmachine79]

To be honest. Performance is not degraded. And the computer keeps quite cool with the fans running at max.

Still, I agree. Fans going insane for just connecting an external display is a very bad design.

Performance is degraded (vs internal display only or external display with eGPU). That heat has to go somewhere (reducing available thermal headroom), and that power has to come from a limited supply (reducing available power for the CPU).

Perhaps just not to such an extent that you have noticed, thus far.

But if you are still happy with the performance, and aren't yet seeing glitchy graphics from a heat damaged dGPU, great. I'd be getting AppleCare though, if you don't have consumer laws that would otherwise cover a heat damaged dGPU in 2-3 years.

Then again, AppleCare isn't that cheap. Maybe put that money towards an eGPU instead.

 

[_meds]

Just wanted to do a quick update - I've found that running at native resolution in bootcamp also causes the memory clock speed on the GPU to max itself out, 1900x1200 is fine though.

Starting to think this has more to do with the GPU not handling certain screen resolutions instead of just display port vs hdmi connectivity.


As a follow up on the AMD drivers - I don't have a 'tuning' option under advanced, very annoying as the tuning option allows you to adjust the memory clock speed.

 

[lumchai]

Howdy,

I recently made a post about my MBP 16" thermals, although it was mainly focused on the Bootcamp thermal stats. I have the base i9 model with 1tb SSD, 16gb RAM, 5500m 4gb

My MBP thermals seem fine when it is not plugged into an external monitor, although when I plug it into my LG 24" 1920x1080 monitor the IDLE CPU temp sits at about 60c whilst the MBP is also in clamshell mode.

When doing light to moderate tasks such as browsing safari and watching YouTube videos the CPU temp will spike to about 80c and then sit at around 70c (e.g while watching youtube video)

Both while plugged into Power.

Was wondering if these temps are normal? I won't lie, I do suffer from thermal anxiety and coming from a windows pc the MBP temps have me stressing about the longevity of my device...

 

[Ocnetgeek]

There is a very long thread discussing thermal issues and external monitors in this forum that started just after their release. It seems that there are varied experiences and opinions on the topic. https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/16-is-hot-noisy-with-an-external-monitor.2211747/

 

[Jaekae]

if the max is 80-85 it should last for how long the manufacurers made it to last

 

[realies]

@_meds, it would be nice if we can access the tuning option under Windows and see if the GPU can work OK with reduced core/memory clocks. Have you tried the modded GPU drivers?

 

[lumchai]

if the max is 80-85 it should last for how long the manufacurers made it to last

Max IDLE temp 80-85?

 

[bill-p]

Just use it. Don't look at numbers.

If the numbers bother you, then... return the MacBook and get something else. Rinse and repeat until you get that laptop that idles at the temperature numbers you want to see.

Or... I don't know, go back to a desktop PC, turn the fans to max, or use liquid nitrogen and observe sub-zero numbers. I don't know if that will help with productivity, but it'll certainly be entertaining at least?