2019 'Alien' Mac Pro - can someone please explain why it is so expensive?

[Clint_Barton]

$1200  Xeon W-3225
$500   Supermicro X11SPA-TF
$275   4x8GB DDR4 ECC RDIMM
$200   Power Supply
$175   Radeon 580
$50    EATX Case
$35    M.2 256GB SSD

About $2500.

I actually priced out the workstation components:
CPU - Xeon W-3223: ~750$ (https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/intel/xeon_w/w-3223)
Motherboard - C621 AORUS XTREME: 1800$ (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1460397-REG/asus_rog_dominus_extreme_eeb_atx.html/?ap=y&gclid=Cj0KCQjwrdjnBRDXARIsAEcE5YmUxq_U_KtEUSG5uox1vEkJ39AyNlbTS0_-cEc-1VFQtPcIkGa3PTcaAtiLEALw_wcB&lsft=BI:514&smp=Y)
RAM - 4x Supermicro 8GB 288-Pin DDR4 2666: 296$ (https://store.supermicro.com/memory/ddr4/8gb-ddr4-2666-mem-dr480l-hl02-er26.html)
Power Supply - Enermax MaxTytan 80+ Titanium certified Full Modular 1250W: 400$ (https://www.newegg.com/enermax-maxtytan-edt1250ewt-1250w/p/N82E16817194132)
GPU - Radeon Pro WX 7100: ~ 500$ (https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16814105069?Description=radeon pro wx&cm_re=radeon_pro_wx-_-14-105-069-_-Product) - Its the closest thing i could find to the Radeon Pro 580X
SSD - SAMSUNG 970 EVO M.2 2280 250GB: 135$ (https://www.newegg.com/samsung-970-evo-250gb/p/N82E16820147689)
Dual 10G NIC - AddOn - Network Upgrades 656596-B21-AOK Gigabit Ethernet Card 10Gbps PCI-Express 2 x RJ45: 440$ (https://www.newegg.com/addon-network-upgrades-656596-b21-aok/p/N82E16833516137)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total: ~ 4,321$ Note: This does not include the case, multiple TB3 ports or an operating system.
Base Mac Pro: 6,000$

Yes, its expensive, but given the workstation grade components, i do not feel that it is over the top expensive. More research is required, but i would hazard a guess that it may get more economical as the SKU goes up.

 

[CWallace]

The issue with that slide is it shows a xeon gold cpu for $4000 and the cpu they will use in the macpro base is $750. So they are playing with the numbers a bit too much here.

Well you can downgrade to a 1.7GHz 8-core Bronze Xeon and a W4100 GPU. That brings the cost to just over $5000 for a slower GPU than the Mac Pro's (it has been said the W-5100 is AMD's workstation equivalent) and the Mac Pro's CPU will clock over twice as high.

 

[Clint_Barton]

Well you can downgrade to a 1.7GHz 8-core Bronze Xeon and a W4100 GPU. That brings the cost to just over $5000. So a slower GPU than the Mac Pro's (it has been said the W-5100 is AMD's workstation equivalent) and the Mac Pro's CPU will clock over twice as high.

AFAIK the Radeon Pro 580X is about equal to the Radeon Pro WX 7100

 

[CWallace]

AFAIK the Radeon Pro 580X is about equal to the Radeon Pro WX 7100

Okay. So that would be $5500 (with the 1.7GHz Xeon Bronze CPU).

 

[Clint_Barton]

Okay. So that would be $5500 (with the 1.7GHz Xeon Bronze CPU).

Yeah, I think that it is mostly reasonable for a workstation/pro grade machine with validated components and everything

 

[CWallace]

Yeah, I think that it is mostly reasonable for a workstation/pro grade machine with validated components and everything

Especially when you consider what you can spec a Mac Pro to at the top end. HP's Z8 can be configured with 2 CPUs, 3TB of RAM and 3 high-end video cards. That underlying infrastructure to support those configurations is expensive.

 

[AustinIllini]

Yeah...no thanks

Then there's really nothing else to say here.

 

[psingh01]

It says I am trying to work out why it is so expensive, and by listing the parts and asking for costs its clear I want to determine this by the sum of parts :/

Edit: I expanded the first sentence to make this clearer

R&D and Marketing costs will be baked in. It's not like they are going to Newegg and shopping for all the components...

 

[chrono1081]

I would like to know the price of parts, not development or design costs.

Then you’ll never get the full story. Development and design is just as important as hardware costs for any product.

 

[Blair Paulsen]

What would have been nice is a deal on AppleCare for the mMP, say 3 years for $299. It reinforces the idea that it's a high spec, high quality workstation that they don't expect to have to do very many repairs on. A proper, upgradable workstation that can hold up to heavy use can justify the upfront cost. Full stop. If it's not the beast they are claiming, then I don't want to pay that much to find out the hard way - ala nMP 6,1 issues...

 

[Jyby]

Science Rules!

 

[beepp]

The average microwave goes for $80 to $200, and commercial grade (professional) will go for $4k to over $10k. Companies buy equipment they need to do the job.

Well, times has changed and now you can buy a PC that has similar specs and components. It will last as long as Apple built PC having more warranty than Apple offers.

 

[nbwallace]

Well,

Earlier this year I tried to price out a workstation to use for some ML. We are a Lenovo shop. In order to support two reasonable graphics cards we needed to go to a full workstation tower with 64GB ram and an m2 ssd, plus 2 1080TIs it was probably close to $15K, plus we would have been using Windows, which is pretty useless for ML.

I admit as someone who is running a 2010 (firmware updated to 2012) for my consulting business (my code likes lots o' cores) the price is pretty eye watering. But that's kind of what workstations cost these days. At least you can put in non-proprietary ram and graphics cards. Plenty of available power to be had and well designed cooling.

 

[kohlson]

I think it's pretty clear that some here don't see the value in a new MP. Xeon class CPU, ECC memory up to 1.5 TB, 1400-watt supply, GPUs a-go-go, and so on. And has been rightly stated, if you can't understand why it's so expensive, it's not for you. But I think a next level questions to those who don't understand the value is: What would you do with it? And in what way do the current offerings hold you back?
I am *hoping" my 5,1 with a 580 will be adequate for an upcoming 4K camera. This would be pretty good for a system that touted 4 HD monitors at launch. Now, meh. But as much as I want a new MP, I'm not doing anywhere close to 8K. Or anything else that requires that much power.
The new MP is for people who look at the line up on June 1 and say: I need more, and I would happily pay for it. I don't know this, but I suspect Apple did a little bit of market research before proceeding with this.

 

[Jyby]

Science Rules!

 

[fathergll]

This is the big problem - due to phones Apple is the biggest company in the world with a massive basic consumer market. So when they do a niche product for professionals they think it's ridiculous priced because they have no concept of professional tools.

or what you get the Mac Pro is a bargain, but it's aimed at a very small user base.

The problem is Apple has not historically treated the Mac Pro as a computer for a very small user base like you are describing(ie BIG studios)

Apple has purposely created a very distinct product segmentation meaning all users who need Apple tower desktops had to buy a workstation. The Mac Pro basically not only captures the sales of the niche studios but it forces all users who needed something in the line of a traditional tower desktops to also upgrade to a computer that they do not need.

This forum does not understand the pro market.

Why would they? Apple doesn't treat their product line up like a true niche pro market product so why would consumers treat it as one? If they want to have a legit workstation then don't come out with silly 2013 Mac Pro designs when that was clearly designed to grab consumers, prosumers, pros and everything in between.

 

[AdobeWanKenobi]

I'm trying to work out why the new Mac Pro is so expensive given it does not appear the components would cost that much if bought separately.

They say it's comparable to an equivalent PC costing $8K:

View attachment 840558

How much do those parts cost?

8-core Xeon - ???
AMD WX 7100 - £475 / $600
32GB Mem - ???
256GB - ???

Any other parts worth mentioning?

"2019 'Alien' Mac Pro - can someone please explain why it is so expensive?"
Because Apple.

For comparison, I'm rocking a PC I built myself with the following specs:
4.5 GHz 8-core (16-thread) Intel Core i7 5960x, with 22.5 MB cache
64GB PC4-24000 (3GHz) RAM
1.75 TB SSD Storage:

• 500 GB SSD (Samsung Pro NVME, 2.7GB/s) System drive
• 256 GB SSD (Samsung Pro) Scratch Disk
• 1 TB SSD (Samsung Evo) Content Drive

ASUS Strix nVidia GTX 980 TI SuperClocked (6GB of 384-bit GDDR5 RAM, 96ROPs/176TMUs, 2816 shaders, 8GT/s, 5.6 teraflops) (Mobo supports Quad-GPU SLI)
5x PCI-E, 2x 1GB Ethernet, 2x USB 3.1 (10Gbps), 8x USB 3.1 (5Gbps), 2x USB 2.0, 10x SATA 6Gb/s, 2x SATA 10Gb/s, DVD Burner, Blu-Ray Burner, HEADPHONE JACK, 8 Channels of 24bit/192KHz Audio with Optical SPDIF
$4,100.00

...so 13% faster CPU, double the RAM, 7x the SSD storage, an extra PCI-E slot, 2 more USB 3.1 slots, a faster video card, and support for 4 video cards total... for HALF the money. (My machine's about 2 years old, and STILL beats the about-to-be-launched Mac Pro.)

I guess I could call myself "Apple" and charge you DOUBLE to build you an exact clone of my system.

 

[Clint_Barton]

"2019 'Alien' Mac Pro - can someone please explain why it is so expensive?"
Because Apple.

For comparison, I'm rocking a PC I built myself with the following specs:
4.5 GHz 8-core (16-thread) Intel Core i7 5960x, with 22.5 MB cache
64GB PC4-24000 (3GHz) RAM
1.75 TB SSD Storage:

• 500 GB SSD (Samsung Pro NVME, 2.7GB/s) System drive
• 256 GB SSD (Samsung Pro) Scratch Disk
• 1 TB SSD (Samsung Evo) Content Drive

ASUS Strix nVidia GTX 980 TI SuperClocked (6GB of 384-bit GDDR5 RAM, 96ROPs/176TMUs, 2816 shaders, 8GT/s, 5.6 teraflops) (Mobo supports Quad-GPU SLI)
5x PCI-E, 2x 1GB Ethernet, 2x USB 3.1 (10Gbps), 8x USB 3.1 (5Gbps), 2x USB 2.0, 10x SATA 6Gb/s, 2x SATA 10Gb/s, DVD Burner, Blu-Ray Burner, HEADPHONE JACK, 8 Channels of 24bit/192KHz Audio with Optical SPDIF
$4,100.00

...so 13% faster CPU, double the RAM, 7x the SSD storage, an extra PCI-E slot, 2 more USB 3.1 slots, a faster video card, and support for 4 video cards total... for HALF the money. (My machine's about 2 years old, and STILL beats the about-to-be-launched Mac Pro.)

I guess I could call myself "Apple" and charge you DOUBLE to build you an exact clone of my system.

I think it safe to assume that you are not running ECC memory, as the i7 5960x does not support ECC memory, and your hardware is not "validated" workstation hardware. Thats the difference between a "gaming" rig and a workstation.

I actually priced out the *workstation* components:

CPU - Xeon W-3223: ~750$ (https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/intel/xeon_w/w-3223)

Motherboard - C621 AORUS XTREME: 1800$ (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1460397-REG/asus_rog_dominus_extreme_eeb_atx.html/?ap=y&gclid=Cj0KCQjwrdjnBRDXARIsAEcE5YmUxq_U_KtEUSG5uox1vEkJ39AyNlbTS0_-cEc-1VFQtPcIkGa3PTcaAtiLEALw_wcB&lsft=BI:514&smp=Y)

RAM - 4x Supermicro 8GB 288-Pin DDR4 2666: 296$ (https://store.supermicro.com/memory/ddr4/8gb-ddr4-2666-mem-dr480l-hl02-er26.html)

Power Supply - Enermax MaxTytan 80+ Titanium certified Full Modular 1250W: 400$ (https://www.newegg.com/enermax-maxtytan-edt1250ewt-1250w/p/N82E16817194132)

GPU - Radeon Pro WX 7100: ~ 500$ (https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16814105069?Description=radeon pro wx&cm_re=radeon_pro_wx-_-14-105-069-_-Product) - Its the closest thing i could find to the Radeon Pro 580X

SSD - SAMSUNG 970 EVO M.2 2280 250GB: 135$ (https://www.newegg.com/samsung-970-evo-250gb/p/N82E16820147689)

Dual 10G NIC - AddOn - Network Upgrades 656596-B21-AOK Gigabit Ethernet Card 10Gbps PCI-Express 2 x RJ45: 440$ (https://www.newegg.com/addon-network-upgrades-656596-b21-aok/p/N82E16833516137)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Total: ~ 4,321$ Note: This does not include the case, multiple TB3 ports or an operating system.

Base Mac Pro: 6,000$



Yes, its expensive, but given the workstation grade components, i do not feel that it is over the top expensive.

 

[thevault]

I mean if you or your company want to deck out a MP for $100,000... go for it. Most people want to make money- not waste it when alternatives get the job done just as well for a fraction of the price.

Unless you're so white American affluent that you need to swing with the best clubs haha' joking of course but it's wasteful thinking that makes you feel like you're doing a better job.

Truth be told, Apple over designed their case-- machined holes like that? For air and rigidity? I guess that true but its overkill... And why is it so expensive? Why twice as much as the trash can? because it has more physical material in it? The trash can had more custom circuitry than the base Mac Pro..

So really there is zero justification for the price other than a money grab... Companies the size of Apple shouldn't charge us the R&D costs.... They should eat it and sell us the end result fairly..

Amazing Would you like someone to GIVE you a free Mac Pro because you want one

 

[leman]

A company I worked for bought a $30,000 HP Z series work station... they returned it because I built the exact same one with loads more storage and better cooling, and a power supply for more graphics for $18,000..

You designed your own modular easy-access chassis with unified cooling concept? That’s impressive. You should sell them.

 

[ekwipt]

Motherboard alone would cost $2000

 

[nbwallace]

I think the issue continues to be lack of nvidia support. As I have written other places ML on AMD is pretty much non-existent. Currently it relies on RocM, which only supports a subset of the neural-net tools. Moreover, nvidia has been working with anaconda on really incredible additions to the ML stack, you can now write code that can be ported from cpu to GPU trivially.

They’ve even gotten more traditional models to run, very efficiently, on GPU. It’s a real investment, AMD has been content to let the open source community work on ML development, and it shows. Why Apple has decided to ignore a real market segment for their machines is a bit mystifying.

 

[ssgbryan]

I think it's pretty clear that some here don't see the value in a new MP. Xeon class CPU, ECC memory up to 1.5 TB, 1400-watt supply, GPUs a-go-go, and so on. And has been rightly stated, if you can't understand why it's so expensive, it's not for you. But I think a next level questions to those who don't understand the value is: What would you do with it? And in what way do the current offerings hold you back?
I am *hoping" my 5,1 with a 580 will be adequate for an upcoming 4K camera. This would be pretty good for a system that touted 4 HD monitors at launch. Now, meh. But as much as I want a new MP, I'm not doing anywhere close to 8K. Or anything else that requires that much power.
The new MP is for people who look at the line up on June 1 and say: I need more, and I would happily pay for it. I don't know this, but I suspect Apple did a little bit of market research before proceeding with this.

I do 3d art. In the 3d art world we have 2 choices GPU based workflow (with Nvidia) or CPU based workflow (with AMD or Nvidia). I am on a MacPro (see sig) Guess which one I am going with.


Because there isn't value in it.
8 cores/16 threads
PCIe 3.0
a 2 year old consumer grade video card.
32Gb ram

Xeons are outperformed by AMD chips.
All AMD cpus support ECC

I don't have a problem with a $6,000 computer.

It is just that the same $6,000 can get me between 3 and 4 times the cores, 4 times the memory and the workstation version of the video card (and a 1,400 watt PSU). And no RGB.


And this is with CPUs that are approaching EOL. By the end of the year, Zen 2 based TR & Eypc will be rolling out the door with PCIe 4 motherboards. If I was spending crazy money, I'd rather be buying 64 core Eypcs......

 

[teejayhoward]

I actually priced out the *workstation* components:

CPU - Xeon W-3223: ~750$ (https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/intel/xeon_w/w-3223)

Motherboard - C621 AORUS XTREME: 1800$ (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1460397-REG/asus_rog_dominus_extreme_eeb_atx.html/?ap=y&gclid=Cj0KCQjwrdjnBRDXARIsAEcE5YmUxq_U_KtEUSG5uox1vEkJ39AyNlbTS0_-cEc-1VFQtPcIkGa3PTcaAtiLEALw_wcB&lsft=BI:514&smp=Y)

RAM - 4x Supermicro 8GB 288-Pin DDR4 2666: 296$ (https://store.supermicro.com/memory/ddr4/8gb-ddr4-2666-mem-dr480l-hl02-er26.html)

Power Supply - Enermax MaxTytan 80+ Titanium certified Full Modular 1250W: 400$ (https://www.newegg.com/enermax-maxtytan-edt1250ewt-1250w/p/N82E16817194132)

GPU - Radeon Pro WX 7100: ~ 500$ (https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16814105069?Description=radeon pro wx&cm_re=radeon_pro_wx-_-14-105-069-_-Product) - Its the closest thing i could find to the Radeon Pro 580X

SSD - SAMSUNG 970 EVO M.2 2280 250GB: 135$ (https://www.newegg.com/samsung-970-evo-250gb/p/N82E16820147689)

Dual 10G NIC - AddOn - Network Upgrades 656596-B21-AOK Gigabit Ethernet Card 10Gbps PCI-Express 2 x RJ45: 440$ (https://www.newegg.com/addon-network-upgrades-656596-b21-aok/p/N82E16833516137)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Total: ~ 4,321$ Note: This does not include the case, multiple TB3 ports or an operating system.

Base Mac Pro: 6,000$



Yes, its expensive, but given the workstation grade components, i do not feel that it is over the top expensive.

I think you made a mistake. Instead of choosing a $500 workstation motherboard, you've elected for a $1800 GAMING motherboard that doesn't have half the features any workstation would be expected to have. You also appear to have chosen the most expensive power supply you can find, a graphics card that is not the $175 580 NON-CERTIFIED CONSUMER GRADE card included with the base Mac Pro, and then you added another $440 NIC instead of using the dual onboard 10GigE NICs on a workstation motherboard. You're wasting money in an attempt to make the Mac Pro look like a better value than it is.

ASUS is for gamers. Look at Tyan or Supermicro for proper workstation and server gear.
[doublepost=1559703458][/doublepost]

Motherboard alone would cost $2000

How do you figure? A comparable board has been out for months for only $500 MSRP.

 

[Jyby]

Science Rules!