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Adult80HD

macrumors 6502a
Nov 19, 2019
701
837
I had the basic 580x first and It was a little slow but was still useable but wasn’t the experience I was expecting from this new Mac Pro so I wanted to try the pro Vega II card and only way to do it was to return that machine and reorder. I made a few other changes to my order as well. I am impressed with the speed of building previews, exports and really everything else when I have the resolution of the display set to 1080p.

I am running BenQ PD3200U monitors. How do you like the XDR? Would have liked to but budget for now needed to be spent on the performance gains.

So do you have the new version now with the Vega II? That's currently what I am using. To me it's about as laggy as the 16" MBP when I use it with either the LG 5K or the XDR. So that part is a wash and I'm just dealing with it.

OK, I'm not. I tested ON1 and stay away. Clunky and slower than Lightroom. Tried Affinity Photo and the UI is pretty but way too limited in functionality and slow as well, at least for a lot of the tasks I do frequently. I'm now trying out Capture One. Massive learning curve but....the UI is super snappy. I need to learn a lot more to determine if it can replace Lightroom for me; my most important plugin works and I suspect everything else I really need to do will work for me as well.

I just did a few quick tests to compare some common tasks for me in Capture 1 and Lightroom. Importing 31 ARW files and generating 1:1 previews from my Sony A7R IV takes Capture 1 21.6 seconds; it takes Lightroom 45.7 seconds for the same batch. Round one, C1. Exporting the same 31 images to 2048-pixel (long edge) jpegs, C1 takes 11.1 seconds and Lightroom takes 8.1 seconds; Lightroom wins round two although the total time difference is pretty small. One task I do regularly is export images to HeliconFocus for focus stacking. It exports 16-bit TIFF files from both C1 and Lightroom. Here there is a big difference: From C1 it takes 87.9 seconds where as LR does the same files in 30.8 seconds; Lightroom wins round three. In defense of C1, they just recently started allowing plugins so it's possible the speed issue is with the plugin and not with C1. To test this, I tried a straight export to TIFF on both apps; C1 took 24.0 seconds and Lightroom took 30.9 seconds, so it appears that the plugin or the way C1 is handling plugin exports is at fault here. Regardless it's a slowdown in my workflow unless it's addressed.

As for browsing the same set of 31 raw files, the difference is like night and day. C1 just flies along, no problems at all. Zooming is instantaneous; even with 1:1 previews Lightroom hesitates. Spot healing--which I do a great deal of in my daily workflow--major advantage to C1. It's lightning fast, whereas Lightroom tends to bog down when you clone more than a few dust spots out, or mix dust spot cloning with things like lens corrections.

Interestingly enough, C1 also supports dual GPUs...and LR does not. Lots to think about here.
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I had the basic 580x first and It was a little slow but was still useable but wasn’t the experience I was expecting from this new Mac Pro so I wanted to try the pro Vega II card and only way to do it was to return that machine and reorder. I made a few other changes to my order as well. I am impressed with the speed of building previews, exports and really everything else when I have the resolution of the display set to 1080p.

I am running BenQ PD3200U monitors. How do you like the XDR? Would have liked to but budget for now needed to be spent on the performance gains.

As for the XDR I really love it. I got the nano version; I just don't like glossy screens. I know the regular XDR isn't really as glossy as the MBP's and the iMacs but...I prefer matte and no reflections. I want it to look like it will look in a print, and I never get glossy prints either. It's glorious being able to see things up close and edit the fine details in context without scrolling all around.

It does tax Lightroom even more though. It's just quite frankly a very poorly-coded application and they need to spend some serious time fixing it. Based on my limited tests today I am 90% sure I'm going to switch to C1, after over ten years of using LR. I'm going to see how it goes over the next week and meanwhile reach out to the HeliconFocus developer about the speed of the exports; they're really responsive and if they can speed that up it would be awesome. That app was just upgraded to use the AVX-512 instructions and it also leverages the GPU. Stacking huge numbers of images on the Mac Pro is now a dream, super fast. If more developers used the power we have at hand it would be great. Adobe has the money to do so...they clearly just feel like it's not worth their time.
 
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Adult80HD

macrumors 6502a
Nov 19, 2019
701
837
How big an advantage to upgrade to a Duo if Capture 1 supports dual GPU?

You know, playing with C1 today got me wondering about that. I actually didn't order the Duo because I knew that LR didn't support more than one GPU. I have ordered a second ProDisplay and I'm now debating just getting a second Pro Vega II and setting up the InfinityFabric link. Time to research how C1 will handle that.

Now that I've been using C1 for a few hours today I'm starting to get the hang of it, and I'm 95% sure I'm going to dump Lightroom and never look back. I've figured out how to do most of what I do in Lightroom, and the way I organize my photos the catalog in C1 will be perfectly fine. It's mostly about adapting to different ways of doing things so far.
 

MGrayson3

macrumors regular
Jul 30, 2013
166
625
You know, playing with C1 today got me wondering about that. I actually didn't order the Duo because I knew that LR didn't support more than one GPU. I have ordered a second ProDisplay and I'm now debating just getting a second Pro Vega II and setting up the InfinityFabric link. Time to research how C1 will handle that.

Now that I've been using C1 for a few hours today I'm starting to get the hang of it, and I'm 95% sure I'm going to dump Lightroom and never look back. I've figured out how to do most of what I do in Lightroom, and the way I organize my photos the catalog in C1 will be perfectly fine. It's mostly about adapting to different ways of doing things so far.

Be careful. C1's catalogs are not particularly robust. I like C1 a lot, but it doesn't support some of my recent cameras - a few 10's of thousands of captures. If I went back to it, I'd keep LR for catalog purposes (and possibly printing through the Canon plugin) and use C1 for processing.

C1 and LR also have different ranges for their tools. Clarity is subtle in C1. It can go crazy in LR. LR has better BW conversion, but C1 has better color tools. Enjoy!
 

Adult80HD

macrumors 6502a
Nov 19, 2019
701
837
Be careful. C1's catalogs are not particularly robust. I like C1 a lot, but it doesn't support some of my recent cameras - a few 10's of thousands of captures. If I went back to it, I'd keep LR for catalog purposes (and possibly printing through the Canon plugin) and use C1 for processing.

C1 and LR also have different ranges for their tools. Clarity is subtle in C1. It can go crazy in LR. LR has better BW conversion, but C1 has better color tools. Enjoy!

What I'd like most is for Adobe to pull their heads out of the a$$e$ and fix the performance issues in Lightroom and add layers. There's just been excuses for years on the performance issue, and silence on layers. Forcing subscriptions seems like it's made them even lazier--why try when you're just collecting money all of the time?

As for robust, can you tell me more about what you mean re: the C1 catalogs not being "particularly robust?" I sort all of my images into folders by date, so all I use the Lightroom catalog for is some occasional keyword searching for the photos I keyword--which is only about 10% of what I shoot.
 
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vinegarshots

macrumors 6502a
Sep 24, 2018
983
1,350
Heres how to fix this:

Quit Lightroom
Get Info (on Lightroom shortcut)
Click "Open in Low Resolution" checkbox.
Open Lightroom

Most of Adobes apps run like crap on high res. displays. Forcing them to run in native resolution fixes it, although the UI text, etc, won't look as pretty as native 4K, 5K etc.
 

Adult80HD

macrumors 6502a
Nov 19, 2019
701
837
Heres how to fix this:

Quit Lightroom
Get Info (on Lightroom shortcut)
Click "Open in Low Resolution" checkbox.
Open Lightroom

Most of Adobes apps run like crap on high res. displays. Forcing them to run in native resolution fixes it, although the UI text, etc, won't look as pretty as native 4K, 5K etc.

They should rename that checkbox: "Open like it's 2008" :rolleyes:
 

MGrayson3

macrumors regular
Jul 30, 2013
166
625
What I'd like most is for Adobe to pull their heads out of the a$$e$ and fix the performance issues in Lightroom and add layers. There's just been excuses for years on the performance issue, and silence on layers. Forcing subscriptions seems like it's made them even lazier--why try when you're just collecting money all of the time?

As for robust, can you tell me more about what you mean re: the C1 catalogs not being "particularly robust?" I sort all of my images into folders by date, so all I use the Lightroom catalog for is some occasional keyword searching for the photos I keyword--which is only about 10% of what I shoot.

Disclaimer: I stopped using C1 about two versions after they introduced catalogs, and it would slow down with a few thousand images, interaction with Sessions was problematic (incompatible? I forget), and restricted searching was flaky (am I searching a subset or the whole catalog?). All I've heard recently (and this is second hand internet chatter, so basically worthless) is that the searching tools are primitive compared to LR.

I'm bad at keywording, but I often want to know what images I took with a particular lens or body, or find my most commonly used focal length on a zoom. LR is good at that kind of thing.

By all means give C1 a try. It produces wonderfully natural images. If it supported the Leica S and Hasselblad X1D, I'd drop Adobe in a second.
 

Adult80HD

macrumors 6502a
Nov 19, 2019
701
837
Disclaimer: I stopped using C1 about two versions after they introduced catalogs, and it would slow down with a few thousand images, interaction with Sessions was problematic (incompatible? I forget), and restricted searching was flaky (am I searching a subset or the whole catalog?). All I've heard recently (and this is second hand internet chatter, so basically worthless) is that the searching tools are primitive compared to LR.

I'm bad at keywording, but I often want to know what images I took with a particular lens or body, or find my most commonly used focal length on a zoom. LR is good at that kind of thing.

By all means give C1 a try. It produces wonderfully natural images. If it supported the Leica S and Hasselblad X1D, I'd drop Adobe in a second.


Mmmmm. I debated a Leica S but couldn't justify it for my work. For years I used the M9-M10 as my primary bodies since I traveled extensively for work. I miss the Leica glass rendering. My catalog use is much more simple than even that, so I may be fine. Don't get me wrong, I still prefer the overall workflow and tools in Lightroom, but this whole situation in the last few years has pushed me to the limits. With their resources it's inexcusable how poorly the UI performs on modern hardware.
 

chfilm

macrumors 68040
Nov 15, 2012
3,428
2,113
Berlin
Mmmmm. I debated a Leica S but couldn't justify it for my work. For years I used the M9-M10 as my primary bodies since I traveled extensively for work. I miss the Leica glass rendering. My catalog use is much more simple than even that, so I may be fine. Don't get me wrong, I still prefer the overall workflow and tools in Lightroom, but this whole situation in the last few years has pushed me to the limits. With their resources it's inexcusable how poorly the UI performs on modern hardware.
I gave C1 a shot after your post and wow, performance is stellar!
What’s strange though is it doesn’t have the ICC camera profiles for my Sony Rx1 on board as it seems, and I really need those. Couldn’t figure out yet how to get those. Other than that it looks really exciting!
 

Adult80HD

macrumors 6502a
Nov 19, 2019
701
837
I gave C1 a shot after your post and wow, performance is stellar!
What’s strange though is it doesn’t have the ICC camera profiles for my Sony Rx1 on board as it seems, and I really need those. Couldn’t figure out yet how to get those. Other than that it looks really exciting!

If you have the X-Rite color checker system you can make a custom profile; I make profiles for all of my cameras to get the color spot-on. I made a new one today and loaded it up into C1; a bit more complicated to do than with LR but it's a once and done procedure.
 

jcxstar13

macrumors member
Jun 27, 2007
42
35
La Crosse, WI
So do you have the new version now with the Vega II? That's currently what I am using. To me it's about as laggy as the 16" MBP when I use it with either the LG 5K or the XDR. So that part is a wash and I'm just dealing with it.

OK, I'm not. I tested ON1 and stay away. Clunky and slower than Lightroom. Tried Affinity Photo and the UI is pretty but way too limited in functionality and slow as well, at least for a lot of the tasks I do frequently. I'm now trying out Capture One. Massive learning curve but....the UI is super snappy. I need to learn a lot more to determine if it can replace Lightroom for me; my most important plugin works and I suspect everything else I really need to do will work for me as well.

I just did a few quick tests to compare some common tasks for me in Capture 1 and Lightroom. Importing 31 ARW files and generating 1:1 previews from my Sony A7R IV takes Capture 1 21.6 seconds; it takes Lightroom 45.7 seconds for the same batch. Round one, C1. Exporting the same 31 images to 2048-pixel (long edge) jpegs, C1 takes 11.1 seconds and Lightroom takes 8.1 seconds; Lightroom wins round two although the total time difference is pretty small. One task I do regularly is export images to HeliconFocus for focus stacking. It exports 16-bit TIFF files from both C1 and Lightroom. Here there is a big difference: From C1 it takes 87.9 seconds where as LR does the same files in 30.8 seconds; Lightroom wins round three. In defense of C1, they just recently started allowing plugins so it's possible the speed issue is with the plugin and not with C1. To test this, I tried a straight export to TIFF on both apps; C1 took 24.0 seconds and Lightroom took 30.9 seconds, so it appears that the plugin or the way C1 is handling plugin exports is at fault here. Regardless it's a slowdown in my workflow unless it's addressed.

As for browsing the same set of 31 raw files, the difference is like night and day. C1 just flies along, no problems at all. Zooming is instantaneous; even with 1:1 previews Lightroom hesitates. Spot healing--which I do a great deal of in my daily workflow--major advantage to C1. It's lightning fast, whereas Lightroom tends to bog down when you clone more than a few dust spots out, or mix dust spot cloning with things like lens corrections.

Interestingly enough, C1 also supports dual GPUs...and LR does not. Lots to think about here.
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As for the XDR I really love it. I got the nano version; I just don't like glossy screens. I know the regular XDR isn't really as glossy as the MBP's and the iMacs but...I prefer matte and no reflections. I want it to look like it will look in a print, and I never get glossy prints either. It's glorious being able to see things up close and edit the fine details in context without scrolling all around.

It does tax Lightroom even more though. It's just quite frankly a very poorly-coded application and they need to spend some serious time fixing it. Based on my limited tests today I am 90% sure I'm going to switch to C1, after over ten years of using LR. I'm going to see how it goes over the next week and meanwhile reach out to the HeliconFocus developer about the speed of the exports; they're really responsive and if they can speed that up it would be awesome. That app was just upgraded to use the AVX-512 instructions and it also leverages the GPU. Stacking huge numbers of images on the Mac Pro is now a dream, super fast. If more developers used the power we have at hand it would be great. Adobe has the money to do so...they clearly just feel like it's not worth their time.


Yes I have the new version with the Vega II and it’s no where near as smooth as my 16” MacBook Pro. My catalog is not small and works really well on my macbook. On the Mac Pro with the Vega II my experience is just like the video Moab1 posted. So laggy on edits and browsing and pretty much everything.

I’m really gonna need to test out capture one more thoroughly from what it sounds like when I get some time in a couple weeks. I haven’t done much with focus stacking yet although it’s on my list to start to explore. I do a lot of very large panos though both landscape and wildlife and files can get quite large quite quick.

It also sounds like your putting a dent in my wallet when it comes to the XDR and would go for the nano one too, can’t stand the glossy displays.
 

zhpenn

macrumors regular
Original poster
Aug 27, 2014
240
100
I have tried the C1 on my 2018 Macbook pro, actually slower than LR. Especially when adjust color temp a lot laggy than Lr.
 

Adult80HD

macrumors 6502a
Nov 19, 2019
701
837
Some impressive results.....


Lloyd is given to hyperbole. That said, the import and export performance on the Mac Pro with Lightroom *is* great, and that's been mentioned here. In fact, I posted some data on this a week ago. BUT--the UI lag is an issue, and there's no improvement of that *at all* on the Mac Pro, even with the high horsepower Radeon Pro Vega II. That's not on Apple, it's an Adobe problem with crap code.
 

Average Pro

macrumors 6502
Jul 16, 2013
473
194
Cali
AD-HD,
Thank you for the summary. Based on feedback from forum members, in possessions of the new Mac Pro, I've arrived at the same conclusion. Thanks to those who purchased and tested the MP as it will clearly set the expectation for photographers when it come to Adobe LR. I posted my comments as well as a summary on the Adobe forum because one way this gets addressed is for Adobe to grow tired of the negative publicity/feedback. This is not on Apple, the action item resides with Adobe.
 

chfilm

macrumors 68040
Nov 15, 2012
3,428
2,113
Berlin
AD-HD,
Thank you for the summary. Based on feedback from forum members, in possessions of the new Mac Pro, I've arrived at the same conclusion. Thanks to those who purchased and tested the MP as it will clearly set the expectation for photographers when it come to Adobe LR. I posted my comments as well as a summary on the Adobe forum because one way this gets addressed is for Adobe to grow tired of the negative publicity/feedback. This is not on Apple, the action item resides with Adobe.

I also posted several posts yesterday at the adobe forum, because this issue concerns not just Lightroom but also after effects and premiere in exactly the same way. For me those are worse because there they actually impact the actual work, while in Lightroom it’s “just” the scrolling through images while the actual editing works fine.
I tried the “start in low resolution” hack and it boosted performance tremendously in all three apps.

I’m sick and tired of posting to the adobe forums where our calls will never be answered or heard as it seems. I want to speak directly to adobe but they seem to have cut off every real tech support.
What’s also very strange is that nobody else seems to care about this. Is everybody still on HD monitors??

i was working at an agency yesterday on an old trashcan Mac Pro with three HD displays attached and seriously, premiere worked so much better then on my brand new 10000€ machine! It’s unbearable. I want to do something about this!!
 

gazwas

macrumors 6502
Aug 11, 2008
350
301
All the issues mentioned here and in the article linked to above is making me as (mainly) a stills photographer doubt purchasing the Mac Pro.

The UI issues in Adode apps sound bad enough but After reading Lloyd’s performance tests with Capture One and its terrible CPU and GPU performance it makes me doubt the choice of the slower cores in the Xeon CPU’d Mac Pro being the best tool for us photographers.
 

Adult80HD

macrumors 6502a
Nov 19, 2019
701
837
All the issues mentioned here and in the article linked to above is making me as (mainly) a stills photographer doubt purchasing the Mac Pro.

The UI issues in Adode apps sound bad enough but After reading Lloyd’s performance tests with Capture One and its terrible CPU and GPU performance it makes me doubt the choice of the slower cores in the Xeon CPU’d Mac Pro being the best tool for us photographers.

Where did Lloyd write this? I've been doing some testing with C1 and I'm very impressed so far with the performance.

With regards to Lightroom on the Mac Pro, where it does shine is the import and export process. If you're dealing with huge volumes of RAW files then that can really make a difference. On my 16-core Mac Pro, it will light up all 16 cores running and export, and is substantially faster than my 16" MBP, which has a faster clock speed but half the number of cores.
 
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gazwas

macrumors 6502
Aug 11, 2008
350
301
Where did Lloyd write this? I've been doing some testing with C1 and I'm very impressed so far with the performance.

With regards to Lightroom on the Mac Pro, where it does shine is the import and export process. If you're dealing with huge volumes of RAW files then that can really make a difference. On my 16-core Mac Pro, it will light up all 16 cores running and export, and is substantially faster than my 16" MBP, which has a faster clock speed but half the number of cores.
Lloyd’s C1 findings are here.

https://macperformanceguide.com/MacPro2019-CaptureOne20.html

I don’t take , ingest and process high numbers of shots but often shoot tethered to C1 or stitch multiple shots.

What a total headache ?.
 

gazwas

macrumors 6502
Aug 11, 2008
350
301
Just use an HD monitor and performance will be awesome haha
I don’t think C1 is effected by the monitor resolution but rather poor use of GPU and CPU it seems. :(

All that money an a Mac Pro and currently software handicaps its performance.
 

MGrayson3

macrumors regular
Jul 30, 2013
166
625
That is a bizarre article. The Mac Pro is much faster, but could be faster still. So ... don't buy it?
 

chfilm

macrumors 68040
Nov 15, 2012
3,428
2,113
Berlin
I don’t think C1 is effected by the monitor resolution but rather poor use of GPU and CPU it seems. :(

All that money an a Mac Pro and currently software handicaps its performance.

Hm I didn’t exhaustively test the exportin performance in C1, but the UI is MUCH better than Lightroom for sure!

the machine is certainly software capped right now, if you don’t use Apple software like final cut or (I dare to say it - the photos app). In those apps you can see what it’s capable of. If the software will ever catch up is another question.
It felt like after about 4-5 years developers caught up with the trashcan, but at that moment the GPU and IO were so outdated that it didn’t make sense anymore.
 
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