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exoticSpice

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Jan 9, 2022
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Can you stop drinking the kool-aid, please? it's getting tiring reading your posts, man...

Apple actually DID the complete opposite of what you just typed during their announcement of the Studio. They claimed that it was better, even with their doctored charts.

[SOURCE]
This exactly the march keynote was hyped up by Apple. Notice how the M2 reveal and keynote was more subdued. Apple marketing learned thier lesson and actually did not hype the M2. They quoted 18% faster for CPU and up to 35% for GPU compared to the M1.


WWDC was more realistic and less lets have our heads in the sky.
 

avro707

macrumors 68020
Dec 13, 2010
2,263
1,654
With the 7,1 they built a massively expandable powerhouse of a machine with some unique things, you can have dual W6800X Duo cards, two of them, 4 GPUs, 128GB video ram. That's crazy stuff. 1.5TB RAM maximum, equally crazy even now.

Yes it looks stunning as a design, but the genius is how well thought out the machine is from a functional point of view. It's designed to be something that can keep going for a long time. The 6,1 is lovely to look at, but not "genius" in the same way IMHO. I still love it, my one is the maximum spec.
 
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maikerukun

macrumors 6502a
Oct 22, 2009
719
1,037
I still don't why people are comparing the Mac Studio to the Mac Pro 2019. Apple never intended that to a replacement to the 2019 Mac Pro.

What Apple highlighted in the March keynote that in EDGE cases that the Mac Studio is way better. If Apple thought the Mac Studio way way more powerful than the 7,1 it would have been the Mac Pro replacement.

We have to remember that Apple did crazy things with the 2019 Mac Pro like dual GPUs on a single board and the after buner card in 2019. It was unique I can say none of that to the Mac Studio.

The Mac Pro is Apple's Halo product. The 5,1, 6,1 and 7,1 are stunners and look amazing. The Mac Studio is some boring old box. The 6,1 while not expandable was a beauty to look at. Whatever the next Mac Pro is it will look amazing and perform better than the current AMDs high-end GPUs in the Mac Pro otherwise it will be a failure.
And THAT'S the question of the day...how on earth does Apple get a SOC based M1 powered Mac Pro to perform better than 3 RTX 3090's/2 W6800X Duo's? If they can't find a way to beat those, it's a non-starter...ESPECIALLY if it IS NOT EXPANDABLE...Because the next big problem is, by the time Mac Pro 8.1 does release, the RTX 4090's will be the talk of the town, and the W7800X Duo's will also be in play...so even if they manage to get parity to or even beat by a small margin the current gen GPU Kings...without expandability it's a moot point.

Only one thing is for sure; It's going to be an interesting end of year/beginning of year coming up here :)
 

Yebubbleman

macrumors 603
May 20, 2010
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2,617
Los Angeles, CA
Okay, now THAT...I 100% agree with. But I'm also not sure what a high end 2019 Mac Pro is for outside of heavy lifting. If you only need light lifting, then yes, a Mac Studio makes PERFECT sense...I just feel like I don't know anyone that owns a 2019 Mac Pro for anything light at all. It was never a machine meant to be purchased for light work. It was a baby monster meant to be fed so that it could grow up and eat the whole city lol.

Keep in mind that the Mac Pro can be configured with as low as an 8-core Xeon or as beefy as a 28-core Xeon. There are widely varying degrees of heavy lifting. The Mac Studio is superior to a low-mid-range Mac Pro that doesn't need any sort of PCIe expansion and has low-mid-range GPU options and for things that the Apple Silicon GPU Cores (and video encode/decode engines) are well-suited for. It's not a perfect Mac Pro replacement, but no one is saying that it is.

Also, a Mac Studio with an M1 Ultra with even the lowest RAM and GPU configuration is still an insane amount of power that is nowhere near "light lifting". Hell, even an M1 Max schools the lower end Mac Pro configurations.

The only real use case for the Mac Pro, is "post-purchase flexibility". Is that post-purchase flexibility:
  • massive CPU power
  • massive GPU power
  • reasonable GPU power, but staying at the cutting edge
  • growing ram requirements over time
  • next year's standard for (insert thing) on a card
  • Video Walls / Massive Overview systems with dozens of displays
  • and the most under-appreciated premise - the feeling of security, and the wellbeing that brings, knowing your machine isn't painting you into a corner by being overly-specialised, and non-reconfigurable.
The Mac Pro is the collection bucket for edge-cases, and as we saw in 2013, trying to make it specialised at the expense of edge-cases, was a failure. The Mac Studio, I'm sure is great at Apple ProRes, but what happens if your workflow isn't ProRes, or stops being ProRes? What happens if, in 12 months, a new standard comes out, that the Apple Media Engines aren't actually any good at?

PCIe expansion is a huge one. Post-purchase flexibility isn't wrong and isn't insubstantial. But Thunderbolt breakout boxes are largely impractical in scenarios where a Mac Pro is warranted.
 

avro707

macrumors 68020
Dec 13, 2010
2,263
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Keep in mind that the Mac Pro can be configured with as low as an 8-core Xeon or as beefy as a 28-core Xeon. There are widely varying degrees of heavy lifting. The Mac Studio is superior to a low-mid-range Mac Pro
The low 8 Core can just very quickly become a 28-Core Xeon with no drama. That's what mine will become soon, I'll buy the processor of Amazon or eBay and put it in myself. That's the beauty of it, you are not locked to the original configuration you got from Apple.

You can upgrade later at less cost than the original Apple extortion prices.

That's why we like these Mac Pros.

I did similar with my 6,1 up to 2.7ghz 12 core. Same with my two 5,1s.
 

Yebubbleman

macrumors 603
May 20, 2010
6,024
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Los Angeles, CA
The low 8 Core can just very quickly become a 28-Core Xeon with no drama. That's what mine will become soon, I'll buy the processor of Amazon or eBay and put it in myself. That's the beauty of it, you are not locked to the original configuration you got from Apple.

You can upgrade later at less cost than the original Apple extortion prices.

That's why we like these Mac Pros.

I did similar with my 6,1 up to 2.7ghz 12 core. Same with my two 5,1s.
That is the beauty of Mac desktops (with socketed CPUs) that is. This SoC life definitely has its downsides and that (along with RAM integrated onto the chip) is one of them.
 
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Seiko4169

macrumors member
Jun 18, 2012
90
53
England
well it will be very interesting if the next Mac Pro does go the expandable 7.1 route or the closed 6.1 / Studio route. Only time will tell. I'm actually on the fence as to what I'd prefer but still interesting times ahead nether the less.
 

maikerukun

macrumors 6502a
Oct 22, 2009
719
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With the 7,1 they built a massively expandable powerhouse of a machine with some unique things, you can have dual W6800X Duo cards, two of them, 4 GPUs, 128GB video ram. That's crazy stuff. 1.5TB RAM maximum, equally crazy even now.

Yes it looks stunning as a design, but the genius is how well thought out the machine is from a functional point of view. It's designed to be something that can keep going for a long time. The 6,1 is lovely to look at, but not "genius" in the same way IMHO. I still love it, my one is the maximum spec.
100% AGREE with this. The 7.1 is IMHO the absolute best desktop they've ever created and it's not even close and unless the 8.1 pulls off some SERIOUS backwards compatibility magic, this may be their greatest desktop for another 3 to 5 years to come.
 
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maikerukun

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Oct 22, 2009
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That is the beauty of Mac desktops (with socketed CPUs) that is. This SoC life definitely has its downsides and that (along with RAM integrated onto the chip) is one of them.
It's strange...because of how INSANELY POWERFUL my MacBook Pro now "16 inch M1 Max", I was brainwashed and spoiled and thinking it would scale to a desktop JUST LIKE THAT. But...as the studio has shown us, that's not the case. I had on my rose colored glasses and definitely STILL DO in the mobile arena. That damn MacBook Pro M1 Max will be king for years to come "or M2 Max depending", but I don't think it'll be so easy to take on the Mac Pro 7.1 the upgradability of that thing is just extremely powerful. The only, and I mean ONLY thing I wish the Mac Pro 7.1 could have, is the media encoder on the MacBook Pros M1 Max, and a 64 Core CPU instead of the 28 Core I currently have. Beyond that, this thing doesn't get any better.
 
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Yebubbleman

macrumors 603
May 20, 2010
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well it will be very interesting if the next Mac Pro does go the expandable 7.1 route or the closed 6.1 / Studio route. Only time will tell. I'm actually on the fence as to what I'd prefer but still interesting times ahead nether the less.

If I had to place a bet, the RAM won't be replaceable, at least not without replacing the entire SoC. Same for the graphics. It's possible that the SoC could be socketed and that Apple could sell kits for replacing them. Similarly, I'd imagine that they'll try to have the drive modules also be replaceable the way they are on the 2019 Mac Pro; but you'll still need to DFU restore the entire Mac Pro in the same way that you currently have to DFU restore the T2 in the 2019 Mac Pro. Otherwise, it'll be PCIe slots, internal USB-A/SATA as per the current model. That's just my guess though. It's going to be rough enough of a "downgrade" in upgradeability for Pro users to not be able to replace the RAM and Graphics without replacing the rest of the processor as well. That's going to suck no matter how you slice it.


It's strange...because of how INSANELY POWERFUL my MacBook Pro now "16 inch M1 Max", I was brainwashed and spoiled and thinking it would scale to a desktop JUST LIKE THAT. But...as the studio has shown us, that's not the case. I had on my rose colored glasses and definitely STILL DO in the mobile arena. That damn MacBook Pro M1 Max will be king for years to come "or M2 Max depending", but I don't think it'll be so easy to take on the Mac Pro 7.1 the upgradability of that thing is just extremely powerful. The only, and I mean ONLY thing I wish the Mac Pro 7.1 could have, is the media encoder on the MacBook Pros M1 Max, and a 64 Core CPU instead of the 28 Core I currently have. Beyond that, this thing doesn't get any better.
The 2021 16" MacBook Pro is a beast; especially with the M1 Max. Apple did well by that one. Though, the Mac Pro will definitely be about one's ability to throw PCIe cards in there and reconfigure after the fact. The question remains as to how Apple will or won't allow that.
 

Dayo

macrumors 68020
Dec 21, 2018
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going to suck no matter how you slice it.
You can bet the entire farm on that Apple is certainly not going to release the best possible Intel unit they could.

They will obviously do enough to sell them but a lot of things will suck. Deliberately.

As usual, forums will be filled with the usual fan boys justifying it all, but these always justify anything Apple does and are of no importance.

The hard fact though is that Apple simply can't afford to release anything that shows their new direction up for what it is. A bottom line centric, total lock in that is ultimately user hostile.

Previous attempt with the trashcan failed but by moving away from Intel, they are basically certain of pulling it off this time.

Even if they release another turkey like the trashcan, it's not as if users will have a lot of options once invested in.
 

exoticSpice

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Jan 9, 2022
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You can bet the entire farm on that Apple is certainly not going to release the best possible Intel unit they could.

They will obviously do enough to sell them but a lot of things will suck. Deliberately.

As usual, forums will be filled with the usual fan boys justifying it all, but these always justify anything Apple does and are of no importance.

The hard fact though is that Apple simply can't afford to release anything that shows their new direction up for what it is. A bottom line centric, total lock in that is ultimately user hostile.

Previous attempt with the trashcan failed but by moving away from Intel, they are basically certain of pulling it off this time.

Even if they release another turkey like the trashcan, it's not as if users will have a lot of options once invested in.
If the Mac Pro 8,1 is just a Mac Studio but more cores and RAM? It will be a waste. The 8,1 needs to have PCI-e slots and user upgrade options.
 

chfilm

macrumors 68040
Nov 15, 2012
3,426
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Berlin
The only, and I mean ONLY thing I wish the Mac Pro 7.1 could have, is the media encoder on the MacBook Pros M1 Max, and a 64 Core CPU instead of the 28 Core I currently have. Beyond that, this thing doesn't get any better.
THIS. I just wish they'd give us an Afterburner 2.0 with the upgraded media engines of the M1 and I would gladly keep my 16c mac pro for another 3 years, seriously. But the lack of ability to play back certain h264 formats is already annoying me.
 
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maikerukun

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Oct 22, 2009
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If I had to place a bet, the RAM won't be replaceable, at least not without replacing the entire SoC. Same for the graphics. It's possible that the SoC could be socketed and that Apple could sell kits for replacing them. Similarly, I'd imagine that they'll try to have the drive modules also be replaceable the way they are on the 2019 Mac Pro; but you'll still need to DFU restore the entire Mac Pro in the same way that you currently have to DFU restore the T2 in the 2019 Mac Pro. Otherwise, it'll be PCIe slots, internal USB-A/SATA as per the current model. That's just my guess though. It's going to be rough enough of a "downgrade" in upgradeability for Pro users to not be able to replace the RAM and Graphics without replacing the rest of the processor as well. That's going to suck no matter how you slice it.



The 2021 16" MacBook Pro is a beast; especially with the M1 Max. Apple did well by that one. Though, the Mac Pro will definitely be about one's ability to throw PCIe cards in there and reconfigure after the fact. The question remains as to how Apple will or won't allow that.
It truly is and I think every MBP they release for the next several years or so will only be incrementally better. They're already lightning fast, can't even imagine what they're going to add to it next year.
 

maikerukun

macrumors 6502a
Oct 22, 2009
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THIS. I just wish they'd give us an Afterburner 2.0 with the upgraded media engines of the M1 and I would gladly keep my 16c mac pro for another 3 years, seriously. But the lack of ability to play back certain h264 formats is already annoying me.
Which is why I fear they WON'T do it. Every Pro user I know would find zero reason to leave the current box if those two bare minimums were met. Which is what scares me. I don't think they're willing to do what's needed to make an 8.1 that completely puts the 7.1 to pasture. And yet they're intentionally ignore the 7.1 in an effort to force us to do it regardless.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
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THIS. I just wish they'd give us an Afterburner 2.0 with the upgraded media engines of the M1 and I would gladly keep my 16c mac pro for another 3 years,


Afterburner 1.0 is capped by the x16 PCI-e v3 bandwidth limit. Slapping in a "more powerful" FPGA isn't going to buy anything in more decoded 8K streams.

That is major contributing reason why the Max and Ultra do so much better; a huge bandwidth increase (pragmatically avoids PCI-e completely).

Could say that Apple should release a PCI-e v5 Afterburner 2.0 with a PCI-e v5 Intel processor ... that isn't really going to work. Apple is trying to retire Intel support and much fewer Mac users are going to buy an Intel Mac Pro than before. Especially in this specific area ( where ProRes, H.265 decode/encode is has a heavy weighting. ). This is one of those cases where Apple deliberately went out to do a much better job than their competitors and did. So they are not going to spend a ton of effort 'undoing' that lead. Afterburner 1.0 was to blaze the hardware testing for what they did (move it from a card and hardwired into the SoC).


seriously. But the lack of ability to play back certain h264 formats is already annoying me.

H.264 . AMD has a contribution as much as Apple does. Problem issue there more so those two collaborating to get that worked out.

AMD is putting more work into AV1 (and updates on H.265) than chasing niche H.264 camera specific corner cases.

When AMD was super cash strapped the video codec was a feature checkbox that they put just enough effort in to check off some standards boxes, but were not devoting major focus of hardware or driver work to it. I don't think Apple thought much of the video de/encode subsystems before AMD started investing more. So not particularly interested in them (and less so now with fewer AMD gpu component units to buy going forward. )

If Intel was not in driver purgatory, their cards might be useful for folks focused on A/V de/encode work.



P.S. There may be some tweaks that AMD could help Apple add to the VideoTool Box for the RNDA2 (6000) seriers GPUs.


Apple did Metal 3 updates for the RDNA series (mostly feature other 3D/computational APIs had rolled out previously to June 2022 ). This is another one of those "should have been there in the first place" kinds of updates that would help.
But again illustrative that AMD has not had "leading" video en/decode abilities for last several years.
 
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kvic

macrumors 6502a
Sep 10, 2015
516
460
Afterburner 1.0 is capped by the x16 PCI-e v3 bandwidth limit. Slapping in a "more powerful" FPGA isn't going to buy anything in more decoded 8K streams.
It's clear to me you don't understand the problem faced by the video crowd with Intel Mac Pro. What you said is irrelevant. Afterburner 2.0 won't happen for Intel Mac Pro but it has nothing to do with bus bandwidth. I'm not sure why you even brought this up.

That is major contributing reason why the Max and Ultra do so much better; a huge bandwidth increase (pragmatically avoids PCI-e completely).
Garbage in, garbage out.

Could say that Apple should release a PCI-e v5 Afterburner 2.0 with a PCI-e v5 Intel processor ... that isn't really going to work. Apple is trying to retire Intel support and much fewer Mac users are going to buy an Intel Mac Pro than before. Especially in this specific area ( where ProRes, H.265 decode/encode is has a heavy weighting. ). This is one of those cases where Apple deliberately went out to do a much better job than their competitors and did. So they are not going to spend a ton of effort 'undoing' that lead. Afterburner 1.0 was to blaze the hardware testing for what they did (move it from a card and hardwired into the SoC).
More GIGO

H.264 . AMD has a contribution as much as Apple does. Problem issue there more so those two collaborating to get that worked out.
I don't remotely comprehend what the claim in bold means. Perhaps zero patent contribution to H.264 by both companies falls into "AMD has a contribution as much as Apple does" ?

Also, 'h264' is perhaps a typo by the folk you quoted or he didn't realise what he really meant is 'h265'. This is another exhibit you don't get their problem. Seems to me you read their posts in this sub-forum, you don't comprehend and hence don't understand their problem.

AMD is putting more work into AV1 (and updates on H.265) than chasing niche H.264 camera specific corner cases.
The statement is correct but you're hitting a straw man, wrongly established by yourself.

When AMD was super cash strapped the video codec was a feature checkbox that they put just enough effort in to check off some standards boxes, but were not devoting major focus of hardware or driver work to it. I don't think Apple thought much of the video de/encode subsystems before AMD started investing more. So not particularly interested in them (and less so now with fewer AMD gpu component units to buy going forward. )
More GiGO

If Intel was not in driver purgatory, their cards might be useful for folks focused on A/V de/encode work.
Yet another GIGO. The Intel Mac Pro folks may not even receive drivers for new AMD GPUs. Who in the heaven will expect Intel dGPUs to be supported in MacOS?
 
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deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
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give us an Afterburner 2.0 with the upgraded media engines of the M1
Which is why I fear they WON'T do it. Every Pro user I know would find zero reason to leave the current box if those two bare minimums were met. Which is what scares me. I don't think they're willing to do what's needed to make an 8.1 that completely puts the 7.1 to pasture. And yet they're intentionally ignore the 7.1 in an effort to force us to do it regardless.


If Apple does a 'quad tile/chiplet' SoC with eight ProRes/H.265 de/encode hardware units in it ( the Max has 2 the Ultra 4 ) there is very little chance any PCI-e add in card is going to compete with that. Especially one that is kneecapped with the 7,1 relatively old age PCI-e v3 infrastructure.

First, If Apple adds more codecs to the Afterburner it will only get more expensive. Relatively few folks by the Afterburner card now. If Apple makes it substantively more expensive that is just a pricing death spiral. ( even fewer folks buy so price goes up . Rinse and repeat for next iteration). If anything need to take Afterburner costs down because the same or better is basically free with the M-series ( starting at M2 generation going on. Even basic version is getting some de/encoders. )

Second, no way it is going to compete with number of concurrent decoded streams being displayed. A separate PCIe card has to ship all that uncompresses/decoded video over the PCI-e channel. At some point just run out of bandwidth. Even Afterburner 1.0 is capped. So for 6-12 , 8K multicam edit bays, a modular card isn't going to make a difference because actually introducing a choke point into the system.


What Apple/AMD can do is roll out drivers that actually fully take advantage of the hardware that is there. Metal 3 will probably allow more apps to squeeze more performance out the 6000 series that Apple already sells. Extremely likely that the VideoToolbox is not completely optimized for the VCN 3.0 hardware present in the latest MPX modules either. ( as even Windows drivers were not until Spring time 2022 either. If not on the mainstream OS driver targets than likely not on side niche macOS builds either. )


As far as "ignoring the 7,1" goes for new GPUs. When did they really put any huge substantively effort into the 5,1. From 2010 -> 2012 there was zero GPU updates to the configurations. It was the same old stuff. Apple did sell some 3rd party cards that somewhat popped up on the vacuum between 2010 and 2012. However, by in larger the 5,1 got "hand me downs" card from new Macs that used new GPUs. The MP 2013 spawned hand me downs for the 5,1. The iMac Pro and iMac did the same. The 580X on the MP 2019(7,1) is basically a hand me down also.

Very similar pattern in eGPU support space. Where GPU got used in an embedded fashion in a next generation Mac it got nominal support as Macs got more aligned UEFI boot support. But the coverage didn't really go to stuff that Apple had never selected and was substantively different at the driver ID family and frame buffer level.

The 7,1 was a bit new behavior in that got 6800 and 6900. But was that because a W-6300 (IceLake) stopgap update was a stillbirth and Apple rolled out the MPX modules that were done anyway. Or Apple had some deep love of independent GPU module sales into 'old' Macs regardless of new Macs? Hard to tell. Other last generation Macs embedded GPU had moved to the 6000 generation also. So there may have been no AMD 7000 investment planned at all. And the 7,1 already go the "hand me down".

If Apple had already put aside a budget for doing a Xeon W-6300 system development and killed it then perhaps could take some of the "left over" money and put it into a AMD 7000 update that is paid for mostly on "sunk cost " money. A 7,1 + 7600-7800 modules would be cheaper development path than a much wider update. It is a better 'stop gap' than just sitting on aging hardware. And if the 8,1 is a "one slot wonder" box then probably better to keep a multiple slot box in the line up. ( very similar reason kept the Intel Mini around for two years. The "capacity chop" for some significant submarkets is just too big. Set the 'entry' level higher 16 cores , 48GB , 2 TB , 7700 with fewer folks on fatter margins. Use that to pay down some of the development costs. )



There is a long standing "big lie" that Mac Pro GPU card ecosystem was independently stable , healthy ecosystem It really wasn't. 2006-2015 era was really about very , very few vendors producing cards and them secondary market that preyed on other folks work to hack/plifer boot ROMs and those vendors being under paid to get return on their investment. The market was never large enough were people want to pay for the work to make it grow. Similarly, the dGPUs of the MBP and iMac's was driving most of the inertia that Apple was putting into the embedded portion producing "hand me downs" as the EFI->UEFI shift took place.

There is no UEFI on the "bare metal" M-series for macOS. Apple has good enough GPUs to eliminate them from the rest of the Mac line up ( iMacs and MBPs ). Can quibble about whether has 'high end enough" GPUs going forward , but anything about how Apple cannot cover the lower end -to nominal-affordable-mid-range is basically dead in the water.

The dGPU card sales volume is primarily down to upgrades to the last Intel Mac Pro and eGPU enclosures on Intel Macs. Basically a non growth market.

One version of the big lie was that the Mac Pro was pulling the GPU updates fro the rest of the Mac line up along. Wasn't really true before and definitely not true now in the Apple GPU era.

The other part was that hardware standard slots 'solved' everything in and of themselves. Again nope. No drivers , no pragmatically working solution. Drivers also don't tend to get done for free. If there is not a large enough revenue path back to the dev team then work will probably stop. The lack of a healthy, viable retail GPU card market limits the ecosystem. There is lots of hype that this market is bigger than it really is without Apple priming the pump with embedded dGPU sales.
 

Matt2012

macrumors regular
Aug 17, 2012
100
78
As a PC user for 20+ years who made an 85% switch to Mac in the last year, I'm really keen to see what the new Pro will be like. I do like my 64core Studio and is actually faster in Davinci Resolve than my 3090 PC but as I use it every day for hours on end for work, I'm always a bit concerned if it ever went wrong or something failed in it then it becomes useless and cant just go out and buy a new GPU/CPU etc and replace myself.
It would be nice to swap parts out myself as can't really afford the downtime if i had to send it back for repair and be upgradable.
My biggest gripe with Apple though and trying to get into their system was the constant waiting on whats coming only to be dissapointed often or nothing is announced while the PC side of things evolves much faster.
Hoping Apple do give more info out soon as its torture planning for business!
 

ZombiePhysicist

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May 22, 2014
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There is a long standing "big lie" that Mac Pro GPU card ecosystem was independently stable , healthy ecosystem It really wasn't. 2006-2015 era was really about very , very few vendors producing cards and them secondary market that preyed on other folks work to hack/plifer boot ROMs and those vendors being under paid to get return on their investment. The market was never large enough were people want to pay for the work to make it grow. Similarly, the dGPUs of the MBP and iMac's was driving most of the inertia that Apple was putting into the embedded portion producing "hand me downs" as the EFI->UEFI shift took place.

There is no UEFI on the "bare metal" M-series for macOS. Apple has good enough GPUs to eliminate them from the rest of the Mac line up ( iMacs and MBPs ). Can quibble about whether has 'high end enough" GPUs going forward , but anything about how Apple cannot cover the lower end -to nominal-affordable-mid-range is basically dead in the water.

The dGPU card sales volume is primarily down to upgrades to the last Intel Mac Pro and eGPU enclosures on Intel Macs. Basically a non growth market.

One version of the big lie was that the Mac Pro was pulling the GPU updates fro the rest of the Mac line up along. Wasn't really true before and definitely not true now in the Apple GPU era.

The other part was that hardware standard slots 'solved' everything in and of themselves. Again nope. No drivers , no pragmatically working solution. Drivers also don't tend to get done for free. If there is not a large enough revenue path back to the dev team then work will probably stop. The lack of a healthy, viable retail GPU card market limits the ecosystem. There is lots of hype that this market is bigger than it really is without Apple priming the pump with embedded dGPU sales.

Not sure I fully understand your point, but it comes off as disingenuous. There needn't have been a dedicated Mac version of graphics cards, precisely because you could use the PC version of the cards. ROMs or no rom, you could use the PC versions. The rom flashing was nice for boot screens, but was not necessary. Many many people used newer better video cards on their 5,1 era machines.
 

tsialex

Contributor
Jun 13, 2016
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Not sure I fully understand your point, but it comes off as disingenuous. There needn't have been a dedicated Mac version of graphics cards, precisely because you could use the PC version of the cards. ROMs or no rom, you could use the PC versions. The rom flashing was nice for boot screens, but was not necessary. Many many people used newer better video cards on their 5,1 era machines.
You are missing the most important point, Mac Pros always had modern GPU support not because of the PCIe slots, but because of the drivers.

GPU drivers that were made and had the development financed for other Macs, like Polaris GPUs from Apple eGPU developer kit, iMacs and MBPs and that is the reason that made possible to install newer GPUs with Mac Pros - since Apple was already developing the drivers for the mid-range and low-high end GPUs with all the other Macs and most of the cost was already payed anyway, it was easy/no-brain to scale up and make financially viable the development of the high end GPU driver support with Mac Pro.

Without new Macs that use 3rd party GPUs being made, no one will be payed to develop drivers for the Intel Mac Pros, so will be akin to NVIDIA GPUs right now, supported by Windows and not supported by macOS with the Mac Pros. A GPU without drivers is just a space heater.
 
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ZombiePhysicist

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You are missing the most important point, Mac Pros always had modern GPU support not because of the PCIe slots, but because of the drivers.

GPU drivers that were made and had the development financed for other Macs, like Polaris GPUs from Apple eGPU developer kit, iMacs and MBPs and that is the reason that made possible to install newer GPUs with Mac Pros - since Apple was already developing the drivers for the mid-range and low-high end GPUs with all the other Macs and most of the cost was already payed anyway, it was easy/no-brain to scale up and make financially viable the development of the high end GPU driver support with Mac Pro.

Without new Macs that use 3rd party GPUs being made, no one will be payed to develop drivers for the Intel Mac Pros, so will be akin to NVIDIA GPUs right now, supported by Windows and not supported by macOS with the Mac Pros. A GPU without drivers is just a space heater.

I think I'm still missing the point. I agree, of course you can have all the hardware on earth and if there are no drivers it wont work.

So what.

My point is the GPUs outpaced the latest machines because of their modularity and because the GPUs can concentrate on that. That's how a 5,1 and smoke a fully loaded Mac studio.

Obviously you need driver support. Apple can certainly afford to keep developing drivers.

Now considering that the Mac Pro may be the ONLY machine they would have to support that for, and that may not be worth it as a return on investment may well be true. But I don't buy that it's much more difficult for them to provide that support. Agreed, you cannot amortize it over iMacs/MacBook Pros (with discrete cards). But if they wanted to take the pro market seriously, it's not beyond their ability to do so, and if they do so, past performance has very decidedly proven that the 3rd party will far outpace what apple can do in the GPU arena.
 
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exoticSpice

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Jan 9, 2022
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This is my gripe with Mac Pro and with Apple. The CPU in the 5,1 is horrible now, to put it nicely. Again, why use the latest GPU with a CPU that came out 12-15 years ago?

Only the GPU workflows would be good. Pairing a rx 6900XT is just bottlenecking the machine in gaming and other tasks. It's better to build a PC at that point but people in this forum have a obesssion with an old Xeon Mac Pro.

I agree you CAN do it, but the total experience will be bad. You can't upgrade the CPU and MB unlike a PC.
The 7,1 will always have a Xeon cannot be upgraded past the 28 cores.

AMD's platform allows users to keep the same MB and just upgrade the CPU when a new generation comes out.

The Xeon in the 7,1 was already bad when it came out. Now, AMD released a 64 core Threadripper based on Zen 3 that puts the 7,1 to shame. A workstation is also about the CPU and Apple not choosing AMD/Nvidia for thier CPU and GPU makes the 8,1 future bleak.

The PC is just a better sustainable and consumer friendly platform. Apple's treatment of its Pro users is not good and Apple made a workstation machine( Mac Studio) where you can't even upgrade a simple SSD.

Apple can provide drivers for the 7000 series, if a simple company like Framework and Valve can keep up to date so can Apple. It's just that RDNA 3 is going to a killer GPU line and Apple knows it.
 
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Colstan

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Jul 30, 2020
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I've alluded to this before, but didn't have the direct quote, so here it is. Cliff Maier is a former AMD Opteron architect who wrote the draft for x86-64 and knows the engineers at Apple personally and regularly talks with his old colleagues. When I asked him about the Apple Silicon Mac Pro he replied with the following:

It’s possible that apple allows slotted ram and puts its own gpu on a separate die, sure. But if it does that it will still be a shared memory architecture. I would say there’s a 1 percent chance of slotted RAM. An independent GPU is more likely; the technical issues with that are not very big, but the economics don’t make much sense given apple’s strategy of leveraging its silicon across all products. Still, I’d give that a 33 percent chance. And it wouldn’t be a plug in card or anything - just a separate GPU die in the package using something like fusion interconnect. Maybe for iMac Pro, Mac studio and Mac Pro.

So, he believes a 1% chance of DIMMs, and 33% chance of discrete GPU but still on-package, just not integrated in the SoC.

Replying to my followup question about the GPU being third-party or Apple designed, his response was:

Yeah, definitely their own design. I’m quite convinced they like their architecture, and that they have been working on ray tracing. Given how parallelizable GPU stuff is, it’s quite possible that they simply put together a die that is just made up of a ton of the same GPU cores they have on their SoCs. You could imagine that, for modular high end machines, instead of partitioning die like: [CPU cores+GPU cores][CPU cores+GPU cores]… it may make more economic sense to do [CPU cores][CPU cores]…[GPU cores][GPU cores]…. (Or, even, [CPU cores+GPU cores][CPU cores+GPU cores]…[GPU cores]…

As far as the economics are concerned:

It may also make more engineering sense, in terms of latencies, power supply, and cooling, too. Of course, Apple wouldn’t do that if it was only for Mac Pro (probably) because the economies of scale wouldn’t work (plus, now, supply chains are fragile). They might do it if it made sense to use this type of partitioning for iMacs, iMac Pros, Studios, Mac Pros, and maybe high end MacBook Pros, while using the current partitioning for iPads, iPhone Pros (maybe), Mac Minis, MacBook Pros, MacBooks, and maybe low end iMacs.

Not saying they will, but at least i give it a chance. More of a chance than RAM slots or third-party GPUs.

So, according to this CPU architect, if Apple does include a GPU alongside the SoC, it's going to be their own design, not AMD or Nvidia, won't be available with add-on boards, and Apple will only implement it if they can leverage it in multiple products.

If you want further clarification, feel free to ask him yourself, he's quite chatty and answers all questions.
 

ZombiePhysicist

Suspended
May 22, 2014
2,884
2,794
This is my gripe with Mac Pro and with Apple. The CPU in the 5,1 is horrible now, to put it nicely. Again, why use the latest GPU with a CPU that came out 12-15 years ago?

Only the GPU workflows would be good. Pairing a rx 6900XT is just bottlenecking the machine in gaming and other tasks. It's better to build a PC at that point but people in this forum have a obesssion with an old Xeon Mac Pro.

I agree you CAN do it, but the total experience will be bad. You can't upgrade the CPU and MB unlike a PC.
The 7,1 will always have a Xeon cannot be upgraded past the 28 cores.

AMD's platform allows users to keep the same MB and just upgrade the CPU when a new generation comes out.

The Xeon in the 7,1 was already bad when it came out. Now, AMD released a 64 core Threadripper based on Zen 3 that puts the 7,1 to shame. A workstation is also about the CPU and Apple not choosing AMD/Nvidia for thier CPU and GPU makes the 8,1 future bleak.

The PC is just a better sustainable and consumer friendly platform. Apple's treatment of its Pro users is not good and Apple made a workstation machine( Mac Studio) where you can't even upgrade a simple SSD.

Apple can provide drivers for the 7000 series, if a simple company like Framework and Valve can keep up to date so can Apple. It's just that RDNA 3 is going to a killer GPU line and Apple knows it.

I disagree it will be horrible. Sure if you need lots of CPU bound compute, it will be, but then dont upgrade. As it turns out, to play games, you dont need that much CPU and amazingly, the FPS is pretty great with just that GPU, even throttled in a PCIv2 slot! It does great at that, and better than the Mac Studio by far, for far less.

There are lots of other workflows like that where you only need 'so much' CPU to manage things, and the heavy lifting is done on the video card. So, if that's your work flow, have at it. It's nice to have the cheap option.

Granted, I agree with the spirit of what youre saying. For many workflows, you will need CPU grunt, or a balance of CPU and GPU. Yea, so don't upgrade. Again, having the option flexibility is a GOOD thing and superior to even a brand new modern machine for things like gaming.

I also agree, yes, obviously it would be great to have the thread ripper etc even more flexible options.
 
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