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Aegelward

macrumors 6502a
Jul 31, 2005
528
54
UK
Even with optimal cooling the Air would fall a little way behind the higher power processors in the Pro models, so I struggle to call it a definitive threat to the Pro but it's best potential performance probably touches a little too uncomfortably on the pro for those (amateur) prosumer users who use it for some mild creative tasks. I'm sure it can still edit a video in 1080, remix a bit of audio or do some light graphics work.

But Apple have always been a little implicit in their desire to upsell people to a higher model. Most people are willing to bite thanks to the prestige of having a Pro over a Air offers.
 

throAU

macrumors G3
Feb 13, 2012
9,137
7,294
Perth, Western Australia
My takeaway is that the Air actually is competitive with (and in some areas) even outperforms a recent MBP in my most common scenarios (single core burst workloads, desktop graphics, IO read & write speeds), at a lower cost and weight, and with likely longer battery runtime. It is thermally more limited (slower) than recent MBPs when running extended, continuous multi-core workloads; even then its multi core score is pretty darn respectable given that it's a low power, thermally limited 10w chip. So yer pays yer money and makes yer choice.

Roughly 3x metal performance? :D

That's not a small win. That's a slaughter.

For my criteria of quad core, 16 GB and 1TB of storage, the MBA is currently also around $1k AUD cheaper. And it has a keyboard that actually works!

Also, there are some new hardware instructions in ice lake that are not available in the prior generation CPU in the 2019 MBP (mostly around new video codecs) so if you're planning to do heavily compressed video in future (either playback or transcode) the MBA will be significantly faster at that. The new iGPU can also do variable resolution rendering (coarse pixel support).


Yes as I said above it's true the benchmarks are a lot better now for the 2020 MBA. But that was just a side point to what throAU was saying about the 2020 MBA > 2019 MBP.

Hmm, i don't remember saying that.

What matters is how the end product you can buy performs, and the 2020 MBA > previous model (i'd also wager it is competitive or faster at some things than the 2019 13" Pro


Oh that's right, i didn't.

Oh, and interpret results, second source dodgy benchmarks to confirm, learn how new instructions impact application performance, etc.

Don't mistake my words. The 2020 Pro will be a better machine. But the CPUs in the 2013-2019 machines have been entirely "meh" improvements since freaking haswell! Which is why Apple didn't even bother for so long upgrading CPUs from the 2012 MBP in the 15s. There was literally almost zero point doing so.

The intel integrated GPUs have gained about 15-20 percent in 5 years until this revision!

Anyone who follows intel architecture knows this, and thus is not surprised with the gains in this MBA and how it will be at least somewhat competitive with the previous generation parts in the current Pro until it is revised. At literally ~2/3 the price (give/take depending on spec for spec comparison). In less weight. With a smaller, lighter charger to carry as well.
 
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raymanh

Suspended
Aug 27, 2017
220
202
Never said that. I'm not even going to read the rest.


Hmmm...

I have not seen the tests you have conducted, so I can only take them at face value. I do know that the MBA and MBP are not excactly the same form factor. One is heavier than the other and also has more case surface area, which means it will transfer and dissipate heat slightly more efficiently.

Don't believe me, here's your post. Hopefully you don't edit it or something like that.

Not gonna read the rest? I have a whole second post just for you that clearly shows the MBA is thermally constrained. Clue; Geekbench vs Cinebench. Perhaps it's too painful to realise you were wrong about the cooling?
 
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raymanh

Suspended
Aug 27, 2017
220
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Oh that's right, i didn't.

Would you like to stop knit picking on a side argument and focus on the real argument here. You know, the bit about the MBA being thermally constrained.

Oh, and interpret results, second source dodgy benchmarks to confirm, learn how new instructions impact application performance, etc.

Three sources all show the MBA jumping to 100 deg C immediately and thermal throttling. At least one of the has finished indexing.

Again why is the MBA 2x faster than my MBP in Geekbench but only 1.3x faster in Cinebench? Would you like to address that? Because Cinebench tests thermals.

It's this simple:

During Cinebench:

The 2020 i5 MBA
- Pulls 11 W
- CPU temp at 100 °C
- Fan speed: Auto (~4000 rpm)
- Cooling: Heatsink and case fan.

My 2016 MBP
- Pulls 19 W
- CPU temp of 90 °C.
- Fan speed: Auto (~4000 rpm)
- Cooling: Heat pipe connected to fan.

Both are single fan, both the same size.

The MBP pulls more watts yet remains cooler. Therefore heat pipes are better.

If the newer processor in the MBA is more efficient, then a smaller proportion of that 11W will be transformed to heat. Despite this it's cooling still can't handle it which only strengths the argument that a heat pipe works better.
 
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agaskew

macrumors 6502
Dec 3, 2009
416
253
Also, there are some new hardware instructions in ice lake that are not available in the prior generation CPU in the 2019 MBP (mostly around new video codecs) so if you're planning to do heavily compressed video in future (either playback or transcode) the MBA will be significantly faster at that. The new iGPU can also do variable resolution rendering (coarse pixel support).

-oooh, is it Altivec?
 

russell_314

macrumors 604
Feb 10, 2019
6,640
10,228
USA
If that were true no one would be bitching about the MBA performance all over this thread and a bunch more. They blame Apple for a poor thermal design because they don't want to buy a MacBook Pro. They won't, or at least they think they shouldn't have to buy a MacBook Pro to get Apple's defined "MacBook Pro performance".

But it is NOT a design flaw, it's obviously by design. Simply because they could cool it better (this isn't rocket science) doesn't mean they should. It's product differentiation to maximize their profits. They want people that need sustained performance to buy the more expensive MacBook Pro. They are not going to "fix" the MBA to make it perform like a MacBook Pro because it isn't broken, it's performing at a level they want.

The reason this upsets people so much is because they know the hardware inside the MBA is capable of more performance with a different cooling design that they assume wouldn't substantially raise its manufacturing cost. So they reason it could have more performance for very little if any added price. Hence they complain it's poorly designed. But it isn't Apple's intention to maximize the performance of its lowest priced product. They want you to buy the more expensive MacBook Pro to get more performance which increases their profit.
I disagree. Apple could put 20k worth of hardware into the MBA then sell it for a loss at $199 and a bunch of people in these forms would be complaining (I changed the word so people don't get offended) about it as you say. Apple lowered the price and improved the performance but people in the forums still complaining. Part of this is because forums attract an enthusiast crowd. There is a sort of elitist attitude that can be prolific among enthusiasts of any item. If you want proof just mention you only use a computer for web browsing and are considering an i3. You will have multiple replies saying don't get it.

The next part where you said they think they shouldn't have to buy a MacBook Pro to get MacBook Pro performance. Wait what?? So they feel a lighter and cheaper computer should perform like a heavier and more expensive one... I'm pretty sure those feelings aren't based in reality.

Of course it's not a "design flaw". It's not a design flaw that my Mac mini doesn't perform like a Mac Pro either.

The whole "could have more performance for very little if any added price" argument is very popular in the forums. The flaw in this is people will quote the price Apple pays for the components and say that means it would raise the retail price that amount. That logic completely defies how any business works. Apple is a buisness and yes they have to make a profit off everything they sell. You know that's why they're doing so well... At least before the current situation.

You said Apple wants people to buy the more expensive model. Well I guess any company would want you to buy their most expensive product. If you mean they purposely make the MacBook Air worse to accomplish that then I would say that's silly. By that logic they could have kept it dual core to ensure anyone wanting performance had to buy the MacBook Pro. They make the MacBook Air for people who don't need the performance of the MacBook Pro. That's honestly most people. For college students, general office work, browsing the web, editing pictures as a hobby the Air is more than enough computer.
 

PianoPro

macrumors 6502a
Sep 4, 2018
511
385
You said Apple wants people to buy the more expensive model. Well I guess any company would want you to buy their most expensive product. If you mean they purposely make the MacBook Air worse to accomplish that then I would say that's silly. By that logic they could have kept it dual core to ensure anyone wanting performance had to buy the MacBook Pro. They make the MacBook Air for people who don't need the performance of the MacBook Pro. That's honestly most people. For college students, general office work, browsing the web, editing pictures as a hobby the Air is more than enough computer.
Every Mac except the Mac Pro at $57K is purposely designed to be worse than some other Mac. Each is carefully specified (limited in performance and features) and designed to compete with a different set of competitive products at different price points. There are dual and quad core versions of the MBA because they decided they needed both performance points to compete with products they have defined to be within the MBA's target market. They don't make only one version of the MacBook Pro for the same reason. There's more MBP versions to compete against an even wider range of products in the MacBook Pro's target market. This is all just elementary product differentiation.
 
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russell_314

macrumors 604
Feb 10, 2019
6,640
10,228
USA
Every Mac except the Mac Pro at $57K is purposely designed to be worse than some other Mac. Each is carefully specified (limited in performance and features) and designed to compete with a different set of competitive products at different price points. There are dual and quad core versions of the MBA because they decided they needed both performance points to compete with products they have defined to be within the MBA's target market. They don't make only one version of the MacBook Pro for the same reason. There's more MBP versions to compete against an even wider range of products in the MacBook Pro's target market. This is all just elementary product differentiation.
I agree that every manufacturer makes products to fit specific needs and budgets. I'm just saying I don't think Apple would go out of their way to make something worse with the intention of having the user buy a different product. I don't think that's quite the same as the Mac Pro being "better" than the Mac mini because even if they put a 486 CPU in the mini the target audience wouldn't buy the Mac Pro. Now if they for example only put a dual core CPU in the mini perhaps someone might spend more to buy an iMac desktop instead.
 

ctjack

macrumors 68000
Mar 8, 2020
1,518
1,540
I'm just saying I don't think Apple would go out of their way to make something worse with the intention of having the user buy a different product.
I have had Panasonic headphones in the past. It was 2005. My friend bought Panasonic RP HJE 120 for 8 bucks. I have listened it and it was lacking the bass. I have googled it and find out that there is a little hole in the headphone's case, so bass pressure just leaks away.
Then i bought Panasonic Rp HJE 270 for 16 bucks i guess. So my friend's 8 bucks headphones and mine had the same audio drivers, size and characteristics. The only difference was the hole in the casing. I closed that hole for my friend with toothpick's head. And then it became similar to mine in terms of audio quality.
So i had a question - why drill a hole to make your headphone sound worse, when it could do better with its' drivers?
The answer was easy - it is the cheapest way to distinguish upper level and cheaper products apart. Inventing new small drivers with worse sound would require more R&D and production change, so it was easier/cheaper for them just to drill a hole and stick with the upper level driver.

So do Macbooks.
MBP 13 2019 could have 2 fans like my 2012 Retina MBP 13. But it does differ by the price, if you want 2 fans. Base comes with 1 by purpose.
And Air 2020 could have heatsink connected to the fan, but then it will be close in performance to the old/new MBP 13. So who would buy MBP then?
 
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bosozoku

macrumors regular
Feb 23, 2018
227
112
Tokyo
I just got an idea, what if a thermal pad to be placed between radiator and bottom cover (just stick a couple of pads to Bottom cover at the area of radiator footprint)? By doing this, heat will be conducted to bottom casing which is made from
aluminum and dissolved efficiently!
Those with mb airs 2018-2020 could do this mod and confirm thermals?
 

ctjack

macrumors 68000
Mar 8, 2020
1,518
1,540
what if a thermal pad to be placed between radiator and bottom cover
But isn't radiator's front cover plastic? As in the video it is some kind of black rectangular, which is maybe plastic from outside. Then placing something won't help.
 

bosozoku

macrumors regular
Feb 23, 2018
227
112
Tokyo
But isn't radiator's front cover plastic? As in the video it is some kind of black rectangular, which is maybe plastic from outside. Then placing something won't help.
At ifixit review there is no cover, so it could be taken off.
Or, even better: someone could do entirely new radiator which extends to bottom cover, apply some liquid metal thermal paste... you got the idea!
 

throAU

macrumors G3
Feb 13, 2012
9,137
7,294
Perth, Western Australia
Would you like to stop knit picking on a side argument and focus on the real argument here. You know, the bit about the MBA being thermally constrained.

Every Macbook on the market is thermally constrained.

That isn't an argument, it is a fact. There's nothing to argue about with regards to that.
[automerge]1585194171[/automerge]
Both are single fan, both the same size.

No, they aren't.



Macbook pro is about ~8% heavier, despite having a smaller, thinner keyboard. That breaks.
 
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raymanh

Suspended
Aug 27, 2017
220
202
Every Macbook on the market is thermally constrained.

That isn't an argument, it is a fact. There's nothing to argue about with regards to that.

Yes of course it's a fact; they all could be liquid nitrogen cooled.

If you could address my point about the difference between Geekbench and Cinebench that would be great because you're still avoiding it.

Those two tests just show how incapable the cooling on the MBA is compared to the MBP.

No, they aren't.



Macbook pro is about ~8% heavier, despite having a smaller, thinner keyboard. That breaks.

What do you mean 'no they aren't'???

I said "both are single fan and both are the same size"

Mopar should've told you to learn how to read.

Again, they both have a single fan. They both have the exactly the same footprint. The MBA is actually thicker around the hinge WHERE COOLING TAKES PLACE than the MBP. The MBP is only ~6% heavier (check you math). You cannot conclude from that that the MBP has an inherent cooling advantage.
 

bosozoku

macrumors regular
Feb 23, 2018
227
112
Tokyo
Yes of course it's a fact; they all could be liquid nitrogen cooled.
At least vapor chamber and heat pipe to the vent could be implemented that's for sure, but apple wants to differentiate their products and save on cooling system, it is clear to me as day.
 

Mopar

macrumors regular
Feb 24, 2011
122
131
2018-MacBook-Air-vs-MacBook-Pro-3.jpg


They are absolutely not the same "form factor" < which were the words you originally used, and then changed to "footprint" after you realised you were wrong.

And maybe you should actually measure the hinge flat surface before you make claims the MBA is thicker in that region (it's not, the MBA has a more tapered bottom).

BTW, it was throAU who told YOU how to read. I never said anything to you like that. Which simply proves he was right – you can't read properly. You certainly don't know the difference between "form factor" and "footprint".

Now, if you will kindly stop trying to drag me back into your petty arguments, I have nothing further to add than the points I have already made.
 

raymanh

Suspended
Aug 27, 2017
220
202
They are absolutely not the same "form factor" < which were the words you originally used, and then changed to "footprint" after you realised you were wrong.

Pedantic much?

You know the meaning form factor also includes physical size? I've been saying footprint for a while now.

Regardless, there is no cooling advantage from the form factor of the MBP. Hope that's been explained.

And maybe you should actually measure the hinge flat surface before you make claims the MBA is thicker in that region (it's not, the MBA has a more tapered bottom).

That's for you to show me. I'm going off official apple figures.

BTW, it was throAU who told YOU how to read. I never said anything to you like that. Which simply proves he was right – you can't read properly. You certainly don't know the difference between "form factor" and "footprint".

Would have checked if only the mods hadn't deleted that :D

Now, if you will kindly stop trying to drag me back into your petty arguments, I have nothing further to add than the points I have already made.

No one is making you post buddy. It's you who keeps coming back, with petty arguments about 'form factor' and not wanting to talk about the main point.
 

Mopar

macrumors regular
Feb 24, 2011
122
131
I just got an idea, what if a thermal pad to be placed between radiator and bottom cover (just stick a couple of pads to Bottom cover at the area of radiator footprint)? By doing this, heat will be conducted to bottom casing which is made from
aluminum and dissolved efficiently!
Those with mb airs 2018-2020 could do this mod and confirm thermals?
Heat rises. If you sink the CPU to the bottom of the case – which has no airflow to duct the heat away – it will simply radiate back inside the case. There will be a small amount of heat exchange around the edges, but most of the heat will be trapped under the case and have nowhere else to go.
[automerge]1585208271[/automerge]
Pedantic much?

You know the meaning form factor also includes physical size? I've been saying footprint for a while now.
Laptops are 3-dimensional. Footprints are not. If you don't know the difference, don't argue the point.
 

raymanh

Suspended
Aug 27, 2017
220
202
Laptops are 3-dimensional. Footprints are not. If you don't know the difference, don't argue the point.

😂 😂 😂 Still going on about this?

That's why I've been saying they have exactly the same foot print and that the MBA is thicker near the hinge.

No inherent advantage to the MBP.

Want to get to the main points instead?
 

Populus

macrumors 603
Aug 24, 2012
5,835
8,311
Spain, Europe
Hey, could we contact any Youtuber to manufacture an actual heatpipe, modify the 2020 MBA, to see how much better does it perform? I’m really curious. Maybe Snazzy Labs or Linus Tech Tips would be willing to do this.

And then, some manufacturers could sell the heatpipe on Amazon or iFixit... just so customers could modify their MBA under their own responsibility.
 

raymanh

Suspended
Aug 27, 2017
220
202
Heat rises.

You're lecturing us in thermodynamics and you say that?

What the hell.

Side note:
bosozoku was talking about putting a thermal pad between the CPU's heatsink and the bottom case thereby using the bottom case as a huge heatsink. I think it would work.
 
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Mopar

macrumors regular
Feb 24, 2011
122
131
You're lecturing us in thermodynamics and you say that?

What the hell.

Side note:
bosozoku was talking about putting a thermal pad between the CPU's heatsink and the bottom case thereby using the bottom case as a huge heatsink. I think it would work.
I will quote this post simply to show the futility of it.

Please read further on convective currents so that you understand why convective heat rises.

In fact, please read the difference between conductive heat, convective heat and radiated heat (infrared) before you read any further so that you understand it.

But let's see what happens when you duct CPU heat directly to the bottom of the case.

Firstly, we will ignore the fact that the bottom of the case sits on your lap, and as it heats up, it will become increasingly less comfortable.

So the case starts to heat up – it's hottest point being the point at which the CPU directly sinks to it – and starts to exchange heat with any air that surrounds it (or any other thermally conductive surface it comes into contact with – such as your skin). Whilst the case itself is a conductor, the parts of the case that are farthest from the heat source will be the coolest, as the case radiates heat at the same time as it conducts it.

As there is very little air exchange underneath the laptop, convective heat will build up in this area until both the air and case reach similar temperatures (thermal equilibrium). A small amount of air will exchange due to convection, but it will not be very efficient – unless the bottom of the laptop is raised off any surface.

If anyone doesn't believe me, feel the bottom of your laptop case right now and compare it to the top.

So where does that heat eventually go? If the heat exchange materials are the same (air), the highest rate of heat transfer goes towards the steepest thermal gradient – the inside of the case until it, too, reaches thermal equilibrium or is exhanged via airflow inside the case.

Of course, you don't even need to understand all this.

Because if passive convective case cooling was more efficient – and indeed more comfortable to sit on your lap – than active heatsink cooling, then every laptop manufacturer would be doing it.

But they don't. So there's your answer.
 

agaskew

macrumors 6502
Dec 3, 2009
416
253
Hey, could we contact any Youtuber to manufacture an actual heatpipe, modify the 2020 MBA, to see how much better does it perform? I’m really curious. Maybe Snazzy Labs or Linus Tech Tips would be willing to do this.

And then, some manufacturers could sell the heatpipe on Amazon or iFixit... just so customers could modify their MBA under their own responsibility.

This thread with ideas like this one, and padding to the bottom case, are identical to those surrounding many other laptops.
Here is an example: LINK

Last year I had an i9 Dell XPS 15 for work. For the XPS (which has 2 fans and a heat pipe) there are stacks of information on cooling to reduce throttling, including:

  1. Repasting with better quality paste
  2. Padding/heatsinks on VRMs
  3. Undervolting
  4. Padding the whole heatsink all the way to the lower case
  5. Taping over gaps around the fans and heatsinks
  6. Installing 3rd party cooler/heatpipe assemblies
For me:
1,2,3 - some limited success. Better paste was the single most effective step.
4 - did not try it, there was some debate about how this could make things worse
5 - seemed silly
6 - didn't have money to buy
 
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raymanh

Suspended
Aug 27, 2017
220
202
I will quote this post simply to show the futility of it.

Please read further on convective currents so that you understand why convective heat rises.

In fact, please read the difference between conductive heat, convective heat and radiated heat (infrared) before you read any further so that you understand it.

But let's see what happens when you duct CPU heat directly to the bottom of the case.

Firstly, we will ignore the fact that the bottom of the case sits on your lap, and as it heats up, it will become increasingly less comfortable.

So the case starts to heat up – it's hottest point being the point at which the CPU directly sinks to it – and starts to exchange heat with any air that surrounds it (or any other thermally conductive surface it comes into contact with – such as your skin). Whilst the case itself is a conductor, the parts of the case that are farthest from the heat source will be the coolest, as the case radiates heat at the same time as it conducts it.

As there is very little air exchange underneath the laptop, convective heat will build up in this area until both the air and case reach similar temperatures (thermal equilibrium). A small amount of air will exchange due to convection, but it will not be very efficient – unless the bottom of the laptop is raised off any surface.

If anyone doesn't believe me, feel the bottom of your laptop case right now and compare it to the top.

So where does that heat eventually go? If the heat exchange materials are the same (air), the highest rate of heat transfer goes towards the steepest thermal gradient – the inside of the case until it, too, reaches thermal equilibrium or is exhanged via airflow inside the case.

Of course, you don't even need to understand all this.

Because if passive convective case cooling was more efficient – and indeed more comfortable to sit on your lap – than active heatsink cooling, then every laptop manufacturer would be doing it.

But they don't. So there's your answer.

I thought you didn't want to post anymore? 😂😂😂

You said "heat rises". Literally incorrect. You cleared it up though, well done!

My laptop is on a desk 90% of the time. Don't assume it's not.

Here we go again with this waffling theory.

You say the exchange of hot air, from under the case to the outside air, will be small, but YOU LITERALLY HAVE NO IDEA. Would you like to model it maybe? then we can talk. You then use this to assume the air under the bottom case and the bottom case itself would be in thermal equilibrium? Really?

Each new sentence is based off some unproven theory from the last.

Just felt my MBP and the bottom is actually COOLER than the top part above my function keys, so what does that say about your theories?

You're not the expert in the thermodynamics you think you are.

But shall we return to the actual thread?
 
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