2020 Air Heatsink Modification Thread

[Mopar]

This is why there is no point arguing with someone who constantly embellishes what he writes.

"In" thermal equilibrium? Nope. I never wrote that. Just because you don't do nuance, doesn't mean you can put words into people's mouths. However, you seem to do it a lot, so I guess it is a hard habit for you to break.

And just because your laptop sits on a desk 90% of the time, doesn't mean everyone else's does.

You seem to think Apple should cater to you and you alone – that is the whole premise of your evidence-free argument.

It's also the reason why you are mostly talking to yourself. Good luck with modifying your 2020 MacBook Air which you don't actually own and probably have no intention of buying. I'm sure in your mind everything will be perfect. Because I've seen nothing on paper that convinces me of your argument.

 

[raymanh]

This is why there is no point arguing with someone who constantly embellishes what he writes.

"In" thermal equilibrium? Nope. I never wrote that. Just because you don't do nuance, doesn't mean you can put words into people's mouths. However, you seem to do it a lot, so I guess it is a hard habit for you to break.

I quote you...

As there is very little air exchange underneath the laptop, convective heat will build up in this area until both the air and case reach similar temperatures (thermal equilibrium). A small amount of air will exchange due to convection, but it will not be very efficient – unless the bottom of the laptop is raised off any surface.

Yes, you are claiming they would be 'in' thermal equilibrium. What's with the focus on "in"?

You seem to think Apple should cater to you and you alone – that is the whole premise of your evidence-free argument.

Evidence free? 🤣 🤣 🤣 . I've shared screenshots of benchmarks with temps, watts, clock speed and fan speed displayed. In Geekbench and Cinebench (You've still not talked about this by the way).

On the other hand you've show photos, muttered about thermodynamics and concluded a heat pipe wouldn't work.

OK 😂

It's also the reason why you are mostly talking to yourself.

Glad I didn't have to call you a nobody.

 

[Mopar]

On the other hand you've . . . concluded a heat pipe wouldn't work.

You are welcome to quote any of my posts where I have suggested a heat pipe won't work.

The reason you are talking to yourself is because you aren't actually reading what other people are writing.

And if you are reading what they are writing, then you are deliberately contorting what they say.

If you can't be honest in an open forum like this where it is easy to look back at what everyone has written, then you clearly can't be trusted with a valid opinion.

Glad I didn't have to call you a nobody.

This is the level of your debate.

 

[raymanh]

You are welcome to quote any of my posts where I have suggested a heat pipe won't work.

Yes, suggest is all you've done.

On the other hand, I've actually given some data. You've still not addressed the Cinebench/Geekbench discrepancy. That shows the MBA cooling is subpar and a heat pipe would help. You've not addressed that so I suppose you agree?

The reason you are talking to yourself is because you aren't actually reading what other people are writing.

And if you are reading what they are writing, then you are deliberately contorting what they say.

If you can't be honest in an open forum like this where it is easy to look back at what everyone has written, then you clearly can't be trusted with a valid opinion.


This is the level of your debate.

Sure buddy,

From the one who said the MBA and MBP had the same footprint

From the one who said a case and the air would be in thermal equilibrium, and then rejected that he said it.

From the one who knows from a thought experiment that both a heat pipe nor conductive padding would reduce temps.

From the one who side tracks and won't even begin to discuss my data from the two benchmarks.

🤣 🤣 🤣

What a joke.

 

[jgorman]

This makes me appreciate the old style MacBook Airs (2011-2017). In their time, they were so well-balanced in terms of portability, performance, price and battery life.

The recent Airs seem to fill a different role in the market. While they do have competitive battery life and price points, some ultrabooks are now both lighter (less than 2.8 lbs.) and have better raw performance (with 15W CPUs and some have cTDP up to 25W).

 

[Bazza1]

A MacBook with a heatsink concern? Holy deja vu, MacMan!

I'm given to recall, what, back in 2007'ish when MacBooks were overheating and then the safety would kick in and the notebook would randomly shut down? Apple initially denied there was a problem, then took affected units in and replaced the heatsink and paste, and then 'solved ' the issue by simply disabling the heat safety shutdown. Good times.

Design form over function. Looks like little has changed.

 

[triangletechie]

This thread has gone straight into the ditch.

 

[Mopar]

From another thread: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/macbook-air-heating-and-fan-problem.2227829/

Yep, what kreasonos wrote: Lisa Gade, check out the video at the 04:25 mark



idling, unplugged: about 35 degrees Celsius
idling, plugged in: about 40 degrees Celsius
webbrowsing, documents: about 50 degrees Celsius
Final Cut: "going up to the 70ies, 80ies, might even push 90, but that's to be expected, that's going to happen even with a more powerful laptop like the 16 inch, so I am not seeing any problems honestly with thermals ..."

Once again, real-world trumps online speculation.

There is nothing wrong with the new MBA's thermals.

 

[mick2]

From another thread: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/macbook-air-heating-and-fan-problem.2227829/


Once again, real-world trumps online speculation.

There is nothing wrong with the new MBA's thermals.

Achhh, now you've done it. Cue the meltdown in 5...4...3...2...

 

[imp3rator]

182 posts and results were not quite bad as you stated... So air will be probably a bestseller

 

[jgorman]

This has me curious. Is there any other computer on the market like this? I mean, is there another example that has a CPU that stays at ~100 degrees C under load?

 

[Mopar]

This has me curious. Is there any other computer on the market like this? I mean, is there another example that has a CPU that stays at ~100 degrees C under load?

Yes. Pretty much most of the MacBook Pros that have twin heatpipes and fans: https://appleinsider.com/articles/1...erformance-in-the-eight-core-2019-macbook-pro

But I'm sure someone could always add a couple more heatpipes to them . . . 😷

 

[raymanh]

From another thread: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/macbook-air-heating-and-fan-problem.2227829/

"idling, unplugged: about 35 degrees Celsius
idling, plugged in: about 40 degrees Celsius
webbrowsing, documents: about 50 degrees Celsius
Final Cut: "going up to the 70ies, 80ies, might even push 90, but that's to be expected, that's going to happen even with a more powerful laptop like the 16 inch, so I am not seeing any problems honestly with thermals ..."

Once again, real-world trumps online speculation.

There is nothing wrong with the new MBA's thermals.

Oh the hypocrisy! So you'll believe a video where the reviewer simply quotes these figures without showing any data or any footage of these tests, and yet you disregard the previous videos I've linked that actually show temps, speeds, power and benchmarks? This reviewer never gave any proper description as to what kind of work load in Final Cut produced those temps in the 70/80s. In fact, she only shows the screen for a few seconds at 4:48 and it shows temps of 70°C with a power draw of 0.8W. You can't really conclude anything from that.

The argument of this thread is whether the MBA thermal throttles and if a heat pipe would help. My argument is that the MBA thermal throttles considerably and that a heat pipe would likely help.

My main points:

1. My 2016 base 13" MBP can sustain 19W @ 2.9 GHz while at 90°C during a Cinebench. (see here)
   The i5 MBA can only sustain 11W @ 1.5 GHz while at 100°C. (see here; video was shot one day after MBA was setup showing benchmarks significantly higher than the previous day when it was slower likely due to indexing the OS).
   Both are virtually the same size, both have a single fan, but the MBP has a heat pipe.
   
   If you look at youtube reviews of the i5 MBA you'll see that every time they do a Cinebench test, temps will nearly immediately go up to 100°C and then the CPU cut its clock speed by 50%. That's thermal throttling. It'll then stay at 100°C throughout the test. MBPs do not do this. See a comparison of thermals in the previous linked video ^)
   
   
2. In Geekbench 5 the i5 MBA has 2x the score of my MBP (3231 vs 1609). However in Cinebench the MBA is only 1.3x the score of my MBP (955 vs 774). Why? Because Geekbench doesn't test thermals, it loads the CPU intermittently (see here). But Cinebench is longer and more importantly puts a continuous high load on the CPU which tests the thermals (see here).

No offence Mopar, but this is a bit more scientific than showing photos of the MBA's internals, reciting some thermodynamics and then stating the cooling on the MBA is adequate and a heat pipe wouldn't improve it.
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Yes. Pretty much most of the MacBook Pros that have twin heatpipes and fans: https://appleinsider.com/articles/1...erformance-in-the-eight-core-2019-macbook-pro

But I'm sure someone could always add a couple more heatpipes to them . . . 😷

You picked an 8 core machine to prove your point???

jgorman, ignore what Mopar said. The vast majority of the dual fan MBPs do not stay at 100°C while benching. Have a look at benchmark videos on youtube and you'll see.
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[jgorman]

Yes. Pretty much most of the MacBook Pros that have twin heatpipes and fans: https://appleinsider.com/articles/1...erformance-in-the-eight-core-2019-macbook-pro

But I'm sure someone could always add a couple more heatpipes to them . . . 😷

The linked AppleInsider article states the CPU temperature of the 2019 15-inch MacBook Pro under sustained load is "... around 94 degrees." This is consistent with LinusTechTips's review, which said when the CPU is under sustained load, the 2019 15-inch MacBook Pro drops down to 92 degrees C (LinusTechTips review at 5:36).

Notebookcheck tested the 16-inch MacBook Pro recently. It does not stay at 100 degrees C under sustained load either. The CPU temperature drops down to 77 degrees C when both the CPU and GPU are under sustained load. When just the CPU is under sustained load, the 16-inch MacBook Pro drops down to 90 degrees C (LinusTechTips review at 8:17).

 

[Mopar]

Did you guys forget how to use Google? MacBook Pro 100C under load

 

[jgorman]

Did you guys forget how to use Google? MacBook Pro 100C under load

Do any of those Google results point to a machine under sustained load staying at ~100 degrees C like the 2020 MacBook Air?

 

[mick2]

He's literally provided you with a link to a Google search; you'll need to read the results for yourself.

Thermal throttling has been a reality in most laptops running Intel CPUs in recent years. Sometimes, the thermal throttling is replaced with Power Limit throttling, depending on the OEM's design goals. But yes, its common in most laptops outside gaming specialist machines with beefy fans/heatsinks. I use a thinkpad t480s (i7-8550u 4 core CPU) - in Cinebench it runs for a few seconds at full pelt then thermally throttles and bobs along at 97degC the rest of the time the test is running.

In real life use (dev / compiling / content consumption) it almost never kicks in because most workloads dont involve sustained, multicore 100% CPU runs lasting for minutes at a time. If I did do these frequently (eg 4k transcoding) and needed more speed, i'd use something other than an ultrabook.

Take a look here for a discussion of thermal throttling and a demonstrative list of machines that are doing it:

Opinion: It's time we talked about throttling in reviews

Editor Douglas Black argues that it should be considered unacceptable to benchmark computers without a sustained load scenario such as Cinebench, as an important part of the computer's real-world performance will be unknown.

www.notebookcheck.net

 

[jgorman]

He's literally provided you with a link to a Google search; you'll need to read the results for yourself.

Thermal throttling has been a reality in most laptops running Intel CPUs in recent years. Sometimes, the thermal throttling is replaced with Power Limit throttling, depending on the OEM's design goals. But yes, its common in most laptops outside gaming specialist machines with beefy fans/heatsinks. I use a thinkpad t480s (i7-8550u 4 core CPU) - in Cinebench it runs for a few seconds at full pelt then thermally throttles and bobs along at 97degC the rest of the time the test is running.

In real life use (dev / compiling / content consumption) it almost never kicks in because most workloads dont involve sustained, multicore 100% CPU runs lasting for minutes at a time. If I did do these frequently (eg 4k transcoding) and needed more speed, i'd use something other than an ultrabook.

Take a look here for a discussion of thermal throttling and a demonstrative list of machines that are doing it:

Opinion: It's time we talked about throttling in reviews

Editor Douglas Black argues that it should be considered unacceptable to benchmark computers without a sustained load scenario such as Cinebench, as an important part of the computer's real-world performance will be unknown.

www.notebookcheck.net

Do you know if any other computers allow the CPU to stay at ~100 degrees C under sustained load?

 

[Mopar]

Clearly you're too lazy to look for yourself, Why should we?

 

[jgorman]

I was looking at getting a T480s for a while. That is a good machine. Notebookcheck did review one with a i7-8550u. When they stress tested it, after 20 minutes, the CPU temperature oscillates down to 87 degrees C, but with BIOS 1.11, the temperature oscillates down to 76 degrees C. I think they said it will stay near Tjmax for three minutes though.

 

[mick2]

Do you know if any other computers allow the CPU to stay at ~100 degrees C under sustained load?

Well, at least you're persistent, i'll give you that

 

[kreasonos]

I was looking at getting a T480s for a while. That is a good machine. Notebookcheck did review one with a i7-8550u. When they stress tested it, after 20 minutes, the CPU temperature oscillates down to 87 degrees C, but with BIOS 1.11, the temperature oscillates down to 76 degrees C. I think they said it will stay near Tjmax for three minutes though.

Nothing wrong with thinkpads. I have had a t460s for about 4 years now. Runs great on linux, but not so great on windows 10. For whatever reason the synaptics driver for the touchpad on windows 10 never worked right but works perfect in linux. Anyway, great computers, 14" screen size is ideal imho. Also, the right side speaker gave out so I just have the left side speaker working now. I still think Macs have better build quality but the thinkpads aren't far behind. Ideally, you could have both : )

 

[raymanh]

Did you guys forget how to use Google? MacBook Pro 100C under load

And you think googling "macbook pro not thermal throttling under load" would give you an accurate picture of how many Macbook Pros do not thermal throttle? People mostly post when there's a problem. Besides, in all those cases in your google search of MBPs that hit 100 °C you don't know if the machine doesn't have lots of background tasks running, software issues or hardware issues etc.

The only reliable way to tell from trusted reviews (like notebookcheck) where the machine is clean and newly setup. And, as jgorman showed, they did not find that the MBP thermal throttled.

Anyway, what was this thread about?

 

[deeddawg]

A MacBook with a heatsink concern? Holy deja vu, MacMan!

Just wait. There’ll be Armchair Engineers arguing how Apple is gonna go bankrupt from their inability to design stuff for the niche buyers who need to run their consumer focused laptops at 1%er-power-user levels. 😀

 

[Jimmy James]

Ironic that we're debating airflow in a MacBook Air?

Yeah, that's how it's done in a server... but this machine is not a server. I bet if I compared my Honda Civic to a Ford F-250 I'd find the Civic wasn't optimized to haul loads of construction materials all day long - and the engine and transmission cooling systems would be at the top of the "inadequate" list.

Yeah, folks seem to be in love with heat pipes, but don't get hung up over it. Heat pipes, like any other technology, can be used well or badly. It's just one of a variety of technologies used to move heat. You can attach a massive heat sink, but if there's no airflow around that heat sink or there's no thermal paste... worthless. You can put the biggest whopping fans into a box, but if airflow is poor across the critical components... worthless. How the heat is moved is less important than whether the heat is moved.

And it's really amusing to see people debating airflow in a three-dimensional space based upon two-dimensional photos.

The thermal design, like every other component, is chosen to achieve specific goals. What this heated discussion boils down to is a disagreement with Apple's goals, not Apple's competency at meeting those goals.

You want to run your Honda Civic as if it was a pickup truck? Don't blame Honda if it doesn't meet your desires.

A better vehicle analogy would be to say that you wanted a passenger car for road trips and bought a Honda Civic designed without a radiator. Then being told that it could only be used for short trips, met it’s design objectives, and that you bought the wrong car. Sure, you made the wrong purchase decision. But, one would also argue that the design was inadequate for market.